tiamat63 Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 Not really going to get into here but 2/5 of Couch's Oline had no business starting in the NFL, 1 was mostly used out of position (Shaun O hara) and the other two were serviceable at best. William Green was a heavy-footed ball carrier who lacked elite between the tackles size yet didn't have "halfback" speed. Andre' Davis never had more than 30 receptions once he left CLE save for a season in Houston with an equally bad Texans team. Quincy Morgan was a 4th receiver on most teams NOT named the Browns. Steve Heiden? Whoa... clone of Touchdown Tony!?! He was an inline blocker with soft hands that thrived off toughness and smarts because he lacked elite athletic ability. There isn't a soul from the 2000-2003 squads that would start for the Browns on offense today, not a one. Ok, Maybe 2007 Shaun O'Hara. Beyond that? Closest we might find would be Northcutt in the slot but that's about it. Tim Couch was as setup to fail as any QB I've seen in a long time. The man walked into Heinz field and gave us what would be our last win there in nearly 18 years. Then he turned around and dropped a couple clunkers. Whether he was good or sucked is something we'll never know because he wasn't given the supporting cast, coaching staff and time to demonstrate either one. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SdBacker80 Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Not really going to get into here but 2/5 of Couch's Oline had no business starting in the NFL, 1 was mostly used out of position (Shaun O hara) and the other two were serviceable at best. William Green was a heavy-footed ball carrier who lacked elite between the tackles size yet didn't have "halfback" speed. Andre' Davis never had more than 30 receptions once he left CLE save for a season in Houston with an equally bad Texans team. Quincy Morgan was a 4th receiver on most teams NOT named the Browns. Steve Heiden? Whoa... clone of Touchdown Tony!?! He was an inline blocker with soft hands that thrived off toughness and smarts because he lacked elite athletic ability. There isn't a soul from the 2000-2003 squads that would start for the Browns on offense today, not a one. Ok, Maybe 2007 Shaun O'Hara. Beyond that? Closest we might find would be Northcutt in the slot but that's about it. Tim Couch was as setup to fail as any QB I've seen in a long time. The man walked into Heinz field and gave us what would be our last win there in nearly 18 years. Then he turned around and dropped a couple clunkers. Whether he was good or sucked is something we'll never know because he wasn't given the supporting cast, coaching staff and time to demonstrate either one. I ran out of YESes when reading this post. Yes...Yes...Yes. I’ve never really thought of Couch as a bust for generally all of the reasons you expressed. Manziel, Weeden, Quinn = busts. Courtney Brown, Justin Gilbert, Barky Mingo = busts too. Regarding Northcutt (I used to call him Dropcutt after the Steeler playoff game) Would probably be a shiny toy that teams would use today. Definitely not a volume pass catcher like we tried to use him as. He might have a special sub package on our team today. He would likely return punts for us too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 1 hour ago, tiamat63 said: Not really going to get into here but 2/5 of Couch's Oline had no business starting in the NFL, 1 was mostly used out of position (Shaun O hara) and the other two were serviceable at best. William Green was a heavy-footed ball carrier who lacked elite between the tackles size yet didn't have "halfback" speed. Andre' Davis never had more than 30 receptions once he left CLE save for a season in Houston with an equally bad Texans team. Quincy Morgan was a 4th receiver on most teams NOT named the Browns. Steve Heiden? Whoa... clone of Touchdown Tony!?! He was an inline blocker with soft hands that thrived off toughness and smarts because he lacked elite athletic ability. There isn't a soul from the 2000-2003 squads that would start for the Browns on offense today, not a one. Ok, Maybe 2007 Shaun O'Hara. Beyond that? Closest we might find would be Northcutt in the slot but that's about it. Tim Couch was as setup to fail as any QB I've seen in a long time. The man walked into Heinz field and gave us what would be our last win there in nearly 18 years. Then he turned around and dropped a couple clunkers. Whether he was good or sucked is something we'll never know because he wasn't given the supporting cast, coaching staff and time to demonstrate either one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 8 hours ago, Tour2ma said: Interesting choice of phrase... At least he didn't refer to him as a "thug", which is boomer for, well, you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 7 hours ago, tiamat63 said: MF is from Harrisburg. That's about as hood as an Easter bunny hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 I never thought of Tim Couch as someone who was going to be elite, but I think he could have been a decent, mid-level starting QB for quite a while if he could have stayed healthy and had better talent around him. Regardless of how good we think he was or could have been, the dude deserves our respect. He got the shit kicked out of him but kept going back out, and I feel he really liked Cleveland and playing for the Browns. He also married a NE Ohio playmate too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted April 21, 2021 Report Share Posted April 21, 2021 10 hours ago, Bob806 said: Kelly Holcomb fooled everybody when he tore up the Steelers decimated secondary in a playoff game. When they threw Couch to the curb they found out Holcomb wasn't any better. So they went out & got Jeff Garcia. He couldn't stay healthy. Holcomb played a decent amount in three seasons for the Browns. In two of them, he had a QB rating in the 90s, the other in the 70s. Couch, in his five seasons with the Browns, never had a QB rating higher than 77.6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted April 22, 2021 Report Share Posted April 22, 2021 44 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said: He couldn't stay healthy. Holcomb played a decent amount in three seasons for the Browns. In two of them, he had a QB rating in the 90s, the other in the 70s. His record as a starter was 4-8, 4-9 counting the playoff game. Yes, he couldn't stay healthy here. He went on to Buffalo (4-4), then Minnesota (0-3). Nothing stellar here or elsewhere. I just think if a guy gets you to the playoffs (Couch) he shouldn't lose the starting job due to an injury in week 17. Butch fell in love with Holcomb based off one game and it basically sunk the Browns and Butch himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted April 22, 2021 Report Share Posted April 22, 2021 32 minutes ago, Bob806 said: His record as a starter was 4-8, 4-9 counting the playoff game. Yes, he couldn't stay healthy here. He went on to Buffalo (4-4), then Minnesota (0-3). Nothing stellar here or elsewhere. I just think if a guy gets you to the playoffs (Couch) he shouldn't lose the starting job due to an injury in week 17. Butch fell in love with Holcomb based off one game and it basically sunk the Browns and Butch himself. He lost the job because Davis and Arians knew Couch was somewhat limited as a QB. Butch got sunk because he was given too much power and made stupid personnel decisions. Butch the GM got Butch the head coach in hot water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 The more I think about it, and hearing that the 49ers spent like 3 first round picks to move into the #3 spot, my opinion is that if they take Mac Jones from Alabama at that slot, that it will be he who is the Big Bust. My perception, right or wrong, is that he really has no more going for him than other Alabama QBs have. Convince me that he is heads and tails above the likes of Greg McElroy, or AJ McCarron, or even Tua who is not getting great reviews for his skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 12:31 PM, Unsympathetic said: Micah Parsons is from Harrisburg, PA. Since I'm quite sure this couldn't have been a racist comment, I am glad to see someone finally pointing out that Newt Gingrich [also from Harrisburg] is single-handedly responsible for Harrisburg descending to hood-status. In fact, Micah is a family man and a saint when compared to the standard Newt has set for Harrisburg -- Micah hasn't cheated on his first two wives yet. Long overdue, and very relevant to football! analogy [əˈnaləjē] NOUN a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. "an analogy between the workings of nature ************************************************* as in, "you can take a bad character away from bad characters, but you can't take the bad character away from the player". I know where he's from. But saying he has a son now etc, all fine , but Braylon Edwards had a daughter, etc, but still didn't get himself straightened out. It's about drafting for character - paying attention to red flags. Edwards, Manziel, Pharms (4th round lb), William Green, and whoever else I don't want to remember. Including character in the eval of a player you might draft is crucial. It's what the Browns do now. Micah Parsons will surely have a great career in the NFL if he really does have his head screwed on straight. "red flags" doesn't mean the player is going to be a disaster - a lot of guys turn their lives around. But to ignore the problems they had in college, lends itself to the failure of players in the NFL when they get big money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 4 hours ago, calfoxwc said: analogy [əˈnaləjē] NOUN a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. "an analogy between the workings of nature ************************************************* as in, "you can take a bad character away from bad characters, but you can't take the bad character away from the player". I know where he's from. But saying he has a son now etc, all fine , but Braylon Edwards had a daughter, etc, but still didn't get himself straightened out. It's about drafting for character - paying attention to red flags. Edwards, Manziel, Pharms (4th round lb), William Green, and whoever else I don't want to remember. Including character in the eval of a player you might draft is crucial. It's what the Browns do now. Micah Parsons will surely have a great career in the NFL if he really does have his head screwed on straight. "red flags" doesn't mean the player is going to be a disaster - a lot of guys turn their lives around. But to ignore the problems they had in college, lends itself to the failure of players in the NFL when they get big money. We at least do not have to worry about Parsons. So apply these bogus character concerns to someone we may be considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 3:21 PM, tiamat63 said: Tim Couch was as setup to fail as any QB I've seen in a long time. Two words... David Carr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 5:54 PM, Dutch Oven said: I never thought of Tim Couch as someone who was going to be elite, but I think he could have been a decent, mid-level starting QB for quite a while I knew he and we were doomed as soon as Palmer said his throwing mechanics were fine and he only needed minor tweaks to his footwork and arm position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Tour2ma said: Two words... David Carr. True. Carr got about the same raw deal as Couch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 StadiumTalk.com has given a letter grade to every First overall pick in the Draft since 1936. The following are the ones that were, by their measure, the clear busts at the #1 spot. These are the guys they gave either Fs or D-s to, for one reason or another. Some never played, some were injured, some in the WWII/Korea era had career derailed by military service, some just sucked obviously. I didn't even include the Ds as those made some contribution: Jay Berwanger Sam Francis George Cafego Tom Harmon Angelo Bertelli Bob Fenimore Harry Babcock Bobby Garrett Randy Duncan Ernie Davis Terry Baker Ricky Bell Tom Cousineau Jeff George Steve Emtman Kijana Carter Courtney Brown (but not Tim Couch...he got a D) Jamarcus Russell Sam Bradford. (Couch/Carr considered better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 That same website gives the following opinions.....listing WHICH player should have been taken with the #1 overall pick instead of the guy that was taken (though sometimes they felt the right choice was made. I am listing them here going all the way back to 1960: 2020 Too early 2019 Too early 2018 Lamar Jackson over Baker Mayfield (I believe this will prove wrong) 2017 Mahomes over Myles Garrett ....fair enough 2016 Derrick Henry over Jared Goff 2015 Marcus Peters over Jameis Winston 2014 Khalil Mack over Clowney 2013 Travis Kelce over Eric Fisher 2012 Russell Wilson over Andrew Luck 2011 JJ Watt over Cam Newton 2010 Gronkowski over Sam Bradford 2009 Matt Stafford....stick with him 2008 Matt Ryan over Jake Long 2007 Adrian Peterson over Jamarcus Russell 2006 Mario Williams....stick with him 2005 Aaron Rodgers over Alex Smith 2004 Eli Manning....stick with him (even over BR) 2003 Troy Polamalu over Carson Palmer 2002 Ed Reed over David Carr 2001 Drew Brees over Michael Vick 2000 Tom Brady #199 over Courtney Brown 1999 Edgerrin James over Tim Couch (not McNabb?) 1998 Peyton Manning....stick with him 1997 Orlando Pace....stick with him 1996 Ray Lewis over Keyshawn Johnson 1995 Derrick Brooks over Kijana Carter 1994 Marshall Faulk over Dan Wilkinson 1993 Michael Strahan over Drew Bledsoe 1992 Desmond Howard over Steve Emtman (I can't believe he is the best they can come up with) 1991 Brett Favre over Russell Maryland 1990 Emmit Smith over Jeff George 1989 Troy Aikman.....stick 1988 Michael Irvin over Aundray Bruce 1987 Rod Woodson over Vinny Testaverde 1986 Charles Haley over Bo Jackson 1985 Bruce Smith.....stick 1984 Boomer Esiason over Irving Fryar 1983 John Elway....stick..or go with Dan Marino 1982 Marcus Allen over Kenneth Sims 1981 Lawrence Taylor (#2) over George Rogers 1980 Anthony Munoz over Billy Sims 1979 Joe Montana over Tom Cousineau 1978 Warren Moon over Early Campbell ??? 1977 Tony Dorsett over Ricky Bell 1976 Leroy Selmon.....stick 1975 Walter Payton over Steve Bartkowski 1974 Jack Lambert over Too Tall Jones 1973 Dan Fouts over John Matuszak 1972 Franco Harris over Walt Patulski 1971 Jim Plunkett....stick 1970 Terry Bradshaw....stick 1969 OJ Simpson....stick 1968 Ron Yary....stick 1967 Alan Page over Bubba Smith 1966 Tommy Nobis....stick 1965 Dick Butkus over Tucker Frederickson 1964 Roger Staubach over Dave Parks (even though Staubach had to serve a 5 year tour of duty, though I may have said Paul Warfield) 1963 John Mackey over Terry Baker 1962 They have the Washington Redskins sticking with Ernie Davis, because, even though Davis died....the trade of him to the Browns netted them the HOFer Bobby Mitchell in return 1961 David Deacon Jones over Tommy Mason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 In 1992...to be fair, there were really no HOF players that came out of that draft. The best were a couple of DBs Darren Woodson and Troy Vincent. In 2006 they picked Mario Williams...who was just OK. The best players in that draft were a couple of borderline HOF Offensive linemen: Jahri Evans and Andrew Whitworth. In 1974 they could have perhaps chosen Mike Webster over Lambert. In 2009, while Stafford has not been a winner, he has been productive, and really no one else out of that draft has proven any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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