First, Second or Third round DTs?

[Flugel]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Athlon and I are going to have a real disagreement here.    Because I watched the Iowa State and Sparty games and that was about the complete opposite of what I saw.  Also, if Nixon is 305 then I'm a god damn china-man.   ( @Dutch Oven, a little movie line there I snuck in)  

edit: directed in general - wouldn't be surprised to see the Browns go 2 IDL in the first 4 rounds or so.   I don't believe Sheldon Day makes the active roster.

Iowa State?   That might be why he didn't look like he was at the weight Athlon and Lindy's had him at.  Let's not get hung up on official weights in a year without Indy combines that giving us official numbers.

I DO like seeing he was the Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year.  If you want to argue he's something we shouldn't have any interest in at pick #26 or #59, that's fine.

Thanks for weighing in...

 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Iowa State?   That might be why he didn't look like he was at the weight Athlon and Lindy's had him at.  Let's not get hung up on official weights in a year without Indy combines that giving us official numbers.

I DO like seeing he was the Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year.  If you want to argue he's something we shouldn't have any interest in at pick #26 or #59, that's fine.

Thanks for weighing in...

 

Last time I looked Iowa State was not in the Big 10.    Did you mean Iowa? 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Iowa State?   That might be why he didn't look like he was at the weight Athlon and Lindy's had him at.  Let's not get hung up on official weights in a year without Indy combines that giving us official numbers.

I DO like seeing he was the Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year.  If you want to argue he's something we shouldn't have any interest in at pick #26 or #59, that's fine.

Thanks for weighing in...

 

Glad to see you're back around.   

 

9 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Last time I looked Iowa State was not in the Big 10.    Did you mean Iowa? 

I said Iowa state.  I remember watching a couple of Iowa's games this year.    The one that stands out was the Iowa v Sparty game and I wanted to say also against Iowa State or one of those midwestern schools.  Pretty sure it was Corn state though - I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

[SdBacker80]

FYI.  Iowa and Iowa St play every year for the CY Hawk trophy.  Covid took away their 2020 meeting.   Big rivalry game actually as is their annual wrestling match.

[tiamat63]

2 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

FYI.  Iowa and Iowa St play every year for the CY Hawk trophy.  Covid took away their 2020 meeting.   Big rivalry game actually as is their annual wrestling match.

Like I said, it was one of those midwestern overweight, ethanol, butter and corn games.  Just can't remember which one besides sparty.

[ballpeen]

On 4/15/2021 at 8:19 PM, The Gipper said:

What do any of you  think of these names as possible picks for the Browns  in the second or third round  at Defensive Tackle  (assuming they don't take one in round one):

Alim McNeili    NC St.

Milton Williams   La Tech

Jaylen Twyman  Pitt

Tommy Togiai   Ohio St.  

All I really know about their skills is that Togiai  was a monster bench presser.

And with the Release of Sheldon Richardson, I guess we should also be thinking about a possible  First rounder.  Who there? 

I think there is a good chance we draft a DT...Nixon would possibly be another name for the 2nd or 3rd round.  McNeil would be my guess.

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Glad to see you're back around.   

 

I said Iowa state.  I remember watching a couple of Iowa's games this year.    The one that stands out was the Iowa v Sparty game and I wanted to say also against Iowa State or one of those midwestern schools.  Pretty sure it was Corn state though - I'm just too lazy to look it up right now.

What player are we talking about here.  It would be pretty easy to figure it out.   If Dayvion Nixon, then he went to Iowa...which of course is Big Ten.   

I don't know of any  NFL prospects from the Big 12's  Iowa State on the DL:

The Top 10 NFL Prospects at Iowa State:

1. Brock Purdy, QB, 6-1, 212, 4.80, JR

2. Tarique Milton, WR, 5-09, 176, 4.45, rJR

3. Charlie Kolar, TE, 6-5, 250, 4.75, rJR

4. Greg Eisworth, S, 5-11, 198, 4.55, rSR

5. Lawrence White, S, 6-0, 191, 4.45, rSR

6. Chase Allen, TE, 6-6, 240, 4.75, rSR

7. Anthony Johnson, CB, 6-0, 175, 4.45, JR

8. O’Rien Vance, ILB, 6-1, 235, 4.80, rJR

9. Will McDonald, OLB, 6-3, 220, 4.60, rSoph

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Like I said, it was one of those midwestern overweight, ethanol, butter and corn games.  Just can't remember which one besides sparty.

Maybe Nebraska has a dude.  Or Kansas?  Kansas St.? 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

I think there is a good chance we draft a DT...Nixon would possibly be another name for the 2nd or 3rd round.  McNeil would be my guess.

So?  What about those  40 reps at 225 lbs. by Togiai?   Is that a big deal, or just a workout warrior stat?

[Dutch Oven]

Jesus Tap Dancin' Christ.

tia never said Daviyon Nixon played for Iowa State. He said he watched Nixon's game tape from the games he played against Iowa State and Michigan State, for fuck's sake. 

Can we move on now? 

[ballpeen]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

So?  What about those  40 reps at 225 lbs. by Togiai?   Is that a big deal, or just a workout warrior stat?

Strength counts.  I don't know how functional 40 reps v someone who does 30 might be.  Lacking reps would hurt, but doing way more might get in to the area of diminished returns.  At some point I am not sure it helps all that much more.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

So?  What about those  40 reps at 225 lbs. by Togiai?   Is that a big deal, or just a workout warrior stat?

Big deal AND he played well this past year too.  He was a guy you had to account for and this was the first year in long time where OSU didn’t have a elite outside presence (DE). 

One of my favorite 2nd/3rd day guys in this draft Jaylen Twyman put up 40 reps as well. Similar builds too. 

[ballpeen]

12 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Big deal AND he played well this past year too.  He was a guy you had to account for and this was the first year in long time where OSU didn’t have a elite outside presence (DE). 

One of my favorite 2nd/3rd day guys in this draft Jaylen Twyman put up 40 reps as well. Similar builds too. 

In the end, the key is how they play.  The strongest guy doesn't mean the best player.

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, ballpeen said:

In the end, the key is how they play.  The strongest guy doesn't mean the best player.

Of course it is and both guys I mentioned were productive along with putting up 40 reps.

 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

In the end, the key is how they play.  The strongest guy doesn't mean the best football player. ----FIFY

Back in the 60's the strongest, biggest guy at Kyle Field in College Station was 6'7" 265 lbs. He was so big and so strong that he was the first man in the world to throw the shot put over 70 ft. where he practiced in a ring just outside the back of one of the endzones. Gene Stallings was so mad that he could not convince him to use that size to help his team that he may have even considered barring him from that practice area-but didn't. However Randy Matson did finally volunteer to play on the basketball team his senior year where they won the SWC championship in 1969. I still think Stallings may have never forgiven him for that.😁 But it sure was fun watching Randy bounce smaller players off him who tried to block him off from rebounds.🏀😂

[calfoxwc]

fourth round?

https://www.brownsnation.com/browns-had-virtual-meeting-with-west-virginia-dt-darius-stills/

https://www.si.com/college/westvirginia/football/draft-analysis-potential-landing-spots-for-darius-stills-in-2021-nfl-draft

[Tour2ma]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:30 PM, SdBacker80 said:

Big deal AND he played well this past year too.

Moderate deal...

Upper body strength is nice for shedding blocks, but without core and lower body to match it is wasted. Of the top 5 bench press performances ever you have likely only heard of one of them. https://www.sportscasting.com/top-5-nfl-combine-bench-press-performances-in-history/

 

Meanwhile...

Little article on 5 DTs in the draft. https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/04/19/cleveland-browns-5-2021-nfl-draft-prospects-to-replace-sheldon-richardson/

It includes the usual suspects... Barmore... McNeill... Keyser Soze... ... my guy ... and a new-to-me name, Jonathan Marshall, Arkansas.

Quote

2. Marlon Tuipulotu, USC

One of this writer’s favorite DT prospects this year, Marlon Tuipulotu is an all-around solid player. He’s nothing special physically or athletically, but he does his job well. He’s a guy who you don’t have to take off the field on passing downs, and can anchor well against the run.

He stands 6-foot-2 and 308 pounds with solid athletic testing and decent production. He is very good at shedding blocks, which is something that not all prospects can say, despite how important of a skill it is for a defensive tackle.

Jay Tufele was billed as a potential first-round pick before opting out of the season. Had he played, that USC interior would have been one of the best in the country. In reality, Tuipulotu put together a very solid campaign, but is underrated because he isn’t a flashy player.

1. Jonathan Marshall, Arkansas

One of Cleveland’s team guardrails is that “age is important”. The oldest player the Browns drafted last year was Jordan Elliott, who turned 23 in September. Age is important because older players are more physically developed, and therefore theoretically have less room to improve after being drafted.

There’s also the concern that they performed well in college because they were much older than their competition; BYU’s Khyiris Tonga, for example, had a great 2020 season and some extremely fun tape. The problem is he was a 25-year-old beating up on 18-22-year-olds, so it would have been an issue if he weren’t manhandling his opponents.

Jonathan Marshall will turn 24 in September, which is a negative. However, perhaps the team will be willing to relax the age guardrail in the later rounds for a player like Marshall. He wasn’t very productive on the stat sheet, but he’s extremely explosive and disruptive. At the right value on Day 3, he could be a great option and could end up as perhaps the best tackle from this class.

Tuipulotu seems like he’ll be a late third to early fourth-round pick, which is also the area of the draft that the Browns will likely be looking to add to the position room. Sheldon Day is currently slated to be the backup one-tech, so finding a rookie who can fill that role this season and be a potential future starter is a good idea.

 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Moderate deal...

Upper body strength is nice for shedding blocks, but without core and lower body to match it is wasted. Of the top 5 bench press performances ever you have likely only heard of one of them. https://www.sportscasting.com/top-5-nfl-combine-bench-press-performances-in-history/

 

Meanwhile...

Little article on 5 DTs in the draft. https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/04/19/cleveland-browns-5-2021-nfl-draft-prospects-to-replace-sheldon-richardson/

It includes the usual suspects... Barmore... McNeill... Keyser Soze... ... my guy ... and a new-to-me name, Jonathan Marshall, Arkansas.

 

It is all a big deal to me.  We can argue if it is big or moderate probably no right or wrong answer to it.

Personally I like to see production or a darn good excuse for lack of production.  But I think the workouts are a big deal and they measure strength, speed and agility everything you need to be successful on the Dline. 

And if I could go even further.  I love DL with wrestling backgrounds.  I haven’t looked at bios this draft year.  You mention core and lower body- a wrestler has freakish core strength and understands the leverage game working angles (positioning). And hand fighting a wrestling match is large a hand fight. The bench press is pretty pointless to a wrestler but you are engaging differently in football than you are wrestling. 
 

 

 

[SdBacker80]

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/wyatt-hubert-2021-nfl-draft-prospect-interview

^^^wrestling mention with DL
 

Regarding the prospect Maybe a 3rd day flyer...he looks like he would be a great special teams player early on.

 

[Tour2ma]

59 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I love DL with wrestling backgrounds.

Lockstep with you on this...

My all-time fav Browns DT? Jerry Sherk... I've often posted that but for his knee injury(ies) back in the time of stone-knives and bearskins orthopedics, IMO, he'd be in the HOF.

 

As for the rest... all just opinion. You give yours... I give mine. It's the stuff of forums. That said...

 

I can't tell you how many articles I've read that the bench press is the least useful measurement The Combine produces. For example...

• https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-does-combine-reveal-about-future-nfl-players
• https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/fulltext/2019/01000/National_Scouting_Combine_Scores_as_Performance.12.aspx#R23-12
• https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2760924-what-is-the-most-important-combine-event-for-each-nfl-position

The former finds that for IDLs the broad jump most highly correlates with NFL success. The latter doesn't list "bench press" for any position.

The middle one? It's referenced in the first.

I mention these because they agree with my opinion... not because they disagree with yours...

 

As to the why of my opinion... simple... you can teach/build strength.

And while you can hone a standing broad or vertical jump, or a shuttle/3-cone time... you really can't instruct a prospect to a result that wows.

 

Personally, I use Combine results for two things...

• a check on any evaluations I have done, i.e., do the numbers match what I saw "on tape";
• a sign that I need to look at someone I have not yet evaluated.

[tiamat63]

A lot of IDL that are recruited that way from High school have wrestling backgrounds.    Leverage, stamina, footwork and balance...  

Plus the psychological component as well.  Want to get the exhaustion of playing a full football game but in 1/3 of the time? Go 3 full periods on the mat and you'll be half dead.

[The Gipper]

21 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

A lot of IDL that are recruited that way from High school have wrestling backgrounds.    Leverage, stamina, footwork and balance...  

Plus the psychological component as well.  Want to get the exhaustion of playing a full football game but in 1/3 of the time? Go 3 full periods on the mat and you'll be half dead.

Bob Golic was a HS wrestler.

I wonder what kind of a nose tackle  Dan Gable or Cale Sanderson would have made.  

Interesting article on the best  college wrestlers of all time.   Only NFL name I recognize is  Carlton Haselpig. 

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/21790

[The Gipper]

More on wrestling and football.    From National Wrestling HOF website. 

Top 10 Wrestlers Who Played In NFL

1. Stephen Neal, New England Patriots OL** – 1999 World freestyle champion, 2x NCAA wrestling champion (Cal-Bakersfield) 4th 1996, 2nd 1997, 1st 1998, 1st 1999
2. Carlton Haselpig, Pittsburgh Steelers OL** – 3x NCAA Div. I champion, 3x NCAA Div. II champion (Pitt-Johnstown), Div. I champion (1987-1989), Div. II champion (1987-1989), 3rd 1986 Div. II
3. Bob Pickens, Chicago Bears, OL – 1964 U.S. Olympic Greco-Roman Team member
4. Jim Nance, New England Patriots, RB – 2x NCAA wrestling champion (Syracuse), 1963 and 1965 champion
5. Curley Culp, Kansas City Chiefs, DL – NCAA wrestling champion (Arizona State), 1967 champion
6. Art Baker, Buffalo Bills, RB – NCAA wrestling champion (Syracuse), 1959 champion
7. Bob Golic, Cleveland Browns, DL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Notre Dame), 3rd 1978, 4th 1977
8. Charlie Getty, Kansas City Chiefs, OL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Penn State), 3rd 1974, 5th 1973
9. Steve Sefter, Philadelphia Eagles, DL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Penn State), 4th 1985, 6th 1981
10. John Ward, 3 NFL teams, OL – NCAA All-American wrestler (Oklahoma State), 3rd 1969
Honorable Mention (also NCAA All-Americans)
Ralph Cindrich, LB, Houston/Denver/New England– NCAA All-American wrestler (Pitt), 4th 1969
Antonio Garay, DT, San Diego/Chicago/Cleveland – NCAA All-American wrestler (Boston College), 4th 2000
Lorenzo Neal, 7 NFL teams, RB – NCAA All-American wrestler (Fresno State), 7th 1992
** Distinguished Member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame

10 Best NFL Players/Coaches Who Wrestled
(Note: All are enshrined in National Football Hall of Fame, except Vinatieri)

1. Ray Lewis, LB, Baltimore Ravens, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2018)***
2. Ronnie Lott, DB, San Francisco 49ers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2000)***
3. Bruce Smith, DE, Buffalo Bills, Washington Redskins, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2009)***
4. Jonathan Ogden, OT, Baltimore Ravens, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2013)***
5. John Hannah, OG New England Patriots, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1991)***
6. Mike Webster, C, Pittsburgh Steelers, Kansas City Chiefs, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1997)***
7. Randall McDaniel, OG, Minnesota Vikings, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2009)***
8. Jim Thorpe, RB, New York Giants, Canton, Cleveland, Oorang, Rock Island, Chicago, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1963)
9. Adam Vinatieri, K, Baltimore Colts, NE Patriots, (still active player)***
10. Chuck Noll, Coach, Pittsburgh Steelers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1993)***
Honorable Mention, also enshrined in NFL Hall of Fame
Curley Culp, DT, Kansas City Chiefs –Pro Football Hall of Fame (2013), NCAA wrestling champion
Larry Csonka, RB, Miami Dolphins, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1987)
Dan Dierdorf, OT, St. Louis Cardinals, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1996)
Henry Jordan, DT, Green Bay Packers, Cleveland Browns, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1995)
Leo Nomellini, DT, San Francisco 49ers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1969)

[SdBacker80]

37 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

More on wrestling and football.    From National Wrestling HOF website. 

Top 10 Wrestlers Who Played In NFL

1. Stephen Neal, New England Patriots OL** – 1999 World freestyle champion, 2x NCAA wrestling champion (Cal-Bakersfield) 4th 1996, 2nd 1997, 1st 1998, 1st 1999
2. Carlton Haselpig, Pittsburgh Steelers OL** – 3x NCAA Div. I champion, 3x NCAA Div. II champion (Pitt-Johnstown), Div. I champion (1987-1989), Div. II champion (1987-1989), 3rd 1986 Div. II
3. Bob Pickens, Chicago Bears, OL – 1964 U.S. Olympic Greco-Roman Team member
4. Jim Nance, New England Patriots, RB – 2x NCAA wrestling champion (Syracuse), 1963 and 1965 champion
5. Curley Culp, Kansas City Chiefs, DL – NCAA wrestling champion (Arizona State), 1967 champion
6. Art Baker, Buffalo Bills, RB – NCAA wrestling champion (Syracuse), 1959 champion
7. Bob Golic, Cleveland Browns, DL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Notre Dame), 3rd 1978, 4th 1977
8. Charlie Getty, Kansas City Chiefs, OL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Penn State), 3rd 1974, 5th 1973
9. Steve Sefter, Philadelphia Eagles, DL – 2x NCAA wrestling All-American (Penn State), 4th 1985, 6th 1981
10. John Ward, 3 NFL teams, OL – NCAA All-American wrestler (Oklahoma State), 3rd 1969
Honorable Mention (also NCAA All-Americans)
Ralph Cindrich, LB, Houston/Denver/New England– NCAA All-American wrestler (Pitt), 4th 1969
Antonio Garay, DT, San Diego/Chicago/Cleveland – NCAA All-American wrestler (Boston College), 4th 2000
Lorenzo Neal, 7 NFL teams, RB – NCAA All-American wrestler (Fresno State), 7th 1992
** Distinguished Member of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame

10 Best NFL Players/Coaches Who Wrestled
(Note: All are enshrined in National Football Hall of Fame, except Vinatieri)

1. Ray Lewis, LB, Baltimore Ravens, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2018)***
2. Ronnie Lott, DB, San Francisco 49ers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2000)***
3. Bruce Smith, DE, Buffalo Bills, Washington Redskins, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2009)***
4. Jonathan Ogden, OT, Baltimore Ravens, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2013)***
5. John Hannah, OG New England Patriots, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1991)***
6. Mike Webster, C, Pittsburgh Steelers, Kansas City Chiefs, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1997)***
7. Randall McDaniel, OG, Minnesota Vikings, Pro Football Hall of Fame (2009)***
8. Jim Thorpe, RB, New York Giants, Canton, Cleveland, Oorang, Rock Island, Chicago, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1963)
9. Adam Vinatieri, K, Baltimore Colts, NE Patriots, (still active player)***
10. Chuck Noll, Coach, Pittsburgh Steelers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1993)***
Honorable Mention, also enshrined in NFL Hall of Fame
Curley Culp, DT, Kansas City Chiefs –Pro Football Hall of Fame (2013), NCAA wrestling champion
Larry Csonka, RB, Miami Dolphins, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1987)
Dan Dierdorf, OT, St. Louis Cardinals, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1996)
Henry Jordan, DT, Green Bay Packers, Cleveland Browns, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1995)
Leo Nomellini, DT, San Francisco 49ers, Pro Football Hall of Fame (1969)

I remember Antonio Garay he was during my time- he made short work of a teammate/friend of mine.  He was a chiseled 275 lb. he had to cut weight to make HWT.
 

 Which is a big reason why some football coaches don’t like wrestling.  

[The Gipper]

Just now, SdBacker80 said:

I remember Antonio Garay he was during my time- he made short work of a teammate/friend of mine.  He was a chiseled 275 lb. he had to cut weight to make the HWT.
 

 Which is a big reason why some football coaches don’t like wrestling.  

Why would a Heavyweight have to cut  weight?  Or, is there actually a  275 pound weight class, and a heavyweight class above that? 

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Go 3 1 full periods on the mat and you'll be half dead.

FIFY...

 

... and little guys love wrestling...

 

Cool little Jerry Sherk article that I just stumbled across... https://www.brownsnation.com/jerry-sherk/

[SdBacker80]

20 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Why would a Heavyweight have to cut  weight?  Or, is there actually a  275 pound weight class, and a heavyweight class above that? 

There is a weight limit to even Heavyweight.  I think it was 285 in college.  I know HS is 275.  
 

Way way back In the day it was unlimited. 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

A lot of IDL that are recruited that way from High school have wrestling backgrounds.    Leverage, stamina, footwork and balance...  

Plus the psychological component as well.  Want to get the exhaustion of playing a full football game but in 1/3 of the time? Go 3 full periods on the mat and you'll be half dead.

Wrestling practice was a bitch.  

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

There is a weight limit to even Heavyweight.  I think it was 285 in college.  I know HS is 275.  
 

Way way back In the day it was unlimited. 

Didn't they add a Super-Heavyweight class?

 

Aside I still remember a Romanian lifting our Super, Chris Taylor, at an Olympics. IIRC Chris weighed over 400#.