The Last Fumble Was NOT a Fumble... Upon Further Review...

[nickers]

 

Thank you once again ZEBRAS!

 

 

 

[Bob806]

Something about the Casper Rule?

I don't know much. I'm fuckin drunk and sick and tired of NFL refs. 1988 Wildcard game vs Houston, 1986 Karlis was wide left, etc. 

Beat the dreaded Steelers, somehow, some way. Exorcise the demons. Won't be easy of course.

I hate the "woe is me" stuff but today I felt it & hated it. Reality is if you're down 5 or 6 starters, you're most likely doomed. Fuuuuuuuu

 

[D Bone]

Don't fumble the ball on a QB sneak and you don't have to blame anyone else..... don't even get me started about the COVID issue or the defense. 

The Browns control their own destiny, and if they can't beat a Steeler team that has zero to play for and will not field their strongest team, then they don't deserve to get to the dance.  

The playoffs start one week early for us.... who says there is no good news anymore? 

[nickers]

4 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Don't fumble the ball on a QB sneak and you don't have to blame anyone else..... don't even get me started about the COVID issue or the defense. 

The Browns control their own destiny, and if they can't beat a Steeler team that has zero to play for and will not field their strongest team, then they don't deserve to get to the dance.  

The playoffs start one week early for us.... who says there is no good news anymore? 

I;'m more mad the Stefanski didnt go up tempo from the start...

[MLD Woody]

What else is it supposed to be?

A handoff? He's past the line of scrimmage

[nickers]

1 minute ago, MLD Woody said:

What else is it supposed to be?

A handoff? He's past the line of scrimmage

Doesn't look past the LOS to me...

[tiamat63]

5 minutes ago, nickers said:

I;'m more mad the Stefanski didnt go up tempo from the start...

Tempo early with practice squad receivers and 40% of your Oline missing is...  a very questionable idea.

KS didn't start calling it until it was becoming a glaring necessity. 

[nickers]

2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Tempo early with practice squad receivers and 40% of your Oline missing is...  a very questionable idea.

KS didn't start calling it until it was becoming a glaring necessity. 

He waited too long

[tiamat63]

3 minutes ago, nickers said:

He waited too long

Sure.

[LBC mike]

 

[bjh2130]

20 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

What else is it supposed to be?

A handoff? He's past the line of scrimmage

I don't believe he was past the line of scrimmage because if he were and the ball was returned to the spot of the fumble then he got the first down. However even if he were past the line options plays are often pitched back to the rb after the qb has crossed the line. I don't know whether it was correctly ruled a fumble or not but being past the line doesn't affect it since the ball traveled backwards.

[TexasAg1969]

That there came out off his elbow then his butt and then was taken by Hunt in the air. That there is called a fumble by the worst sneaker in the NFL QB ranks. Bring Hunt in as the QB sneaker and he gets it 99% of the time just like NO does with #7.

[The Gipper]

It seems to me that Baker may have weak hands.   More than a few times he has fumbled on QB sneaks.

Should have just handed it off there.

[ATOM]

5 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

That there came out off his elbow then his butt and then was taken by Hunt in the air. That there is called a fumble by the worst sneaker in the NFL QB ranks. Bring Hunt in as the QB sneaker and he gets it 99% of the time just like NO does with #7.

yep cause it's not like they do not know whats coming

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

It seems to me that Baker may have weak hands.   More than a few times he has fumbled on QB sneaks.

Should have just handed it off there.

Almost always caused by not carrying the ball with both hands like every other QB in the league does on a sneak. How this has not been trained out of him is beyond me.

[Tour2ma]

The LOS question above is a good one, but I can't find any rule rule that says a handoff has to be behind the LOS. My guess is that as with a lateral s long as the handoff is not forward, then it is legal. But I see something else anyway...

 

The issue I see is that Hunt's knee appears to be on the ground as he gains control of "the handoff" and he's in contact with the DE that caused the fumble. That's Hunt's Nike at the bottom of the first screenshot just left of center. While you cannot see his knee down from that angle the second screenshot clearly shows that his knee is on the ground.

In other words... Hunt was down by conduct short of the 1st down.

[beare]

no team repeat no team would have much chance of a win missing all there wide recievers

[Dutch Oven]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

The LOS question above is a good one, but I can't find any rule rule that says a handoff has to be behind the LOS. My guess is that as with a lateral s long as the handoff is not forward, then it is legal. But I see something else anyway...

 

The issue I see is that Hunt's knee appears to be on the ground as he gains control of "the handoff" and he's in contact with the DE that caused the fumble. That's Hunt's Nike at the bottom of the first screenshot just left of center. While you cannot see his knee down from that angle the second screenshot clearly shows that his knee is on the ground.

In other words... Hunt was down by conduct short of the 1st down.

None of this can be true.

The Browns just have to be getting screwed by the NFL because they are still mad that Browns fans made them give them a team and over the plastic bottles we threw at the refs almost 20 years ago and for Orlando Brown pushing Jeff Tripplette down and ITS A BIG CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE CITY OF CLEVELAND, THE BROWNS AND POSSIBLY EVEN THE CARTOON CHARACTER CLEVELAND BROWN FROM FAMILY GUY! 

[Dutch Oven]

But this does beg the question:

What constitutes a fumble? If a runner loses the ball and another offensive player behind him catches the ball mid-air how is that different than a pitch back? Because it didn't look good? Either way, Player 1 is ahead of Player 2, and without the ball touching the ground the ball goes from Player 1 to Player 2. And LOS shouldn't matter. How many option plays happened when the QB goes around end and then pitches to his trailing back when he's already past the LOS?

Seems to me that for it to be considered a fumble, that another player could not advance (due to the Raiders Holy Roller Game) the ball would have to hit the ground. No one bounce passes a football to a fellow offensive player on purpose. 

[beare]

also whats your all opinion mon the darnold quick whistle i think that was a fumble and browns td the ball looked out before arm went forward!

[jiggins7919]

I'm too lazy to look it up but the rules define fumble and it's very clear. We fumbled it. I don't know HOW that dumbass fumbled it again, but he did. 

[Comeonman]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

The LOS question above is a good one, but I can't find any rule rule that says a handoff has to be behind the LOS. My guess is that as with a lateral s long as the handoff is not forward, then it is legal. But I see something else anyway...

 

The issue I see is that Hunt's knee appears to be on the ground as he gains control of "the handoff" and he's in contact with the DE that caused the fumble. That's Hunt's Nike at the bottom of the first screenshot just left of center. While you cannot see his knee down from that angle the second screenshot clearly shows that his knee is on the ground.

In other words... Hunt was down by conduct short of the 1st down.

This is the only logical explanation I’ve heard at this point. What did the ref say?? I couldn’t hear because I was in a bar 

[bjh2130]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

The LOS question above is a good one, but I can't find any rule rule that says a handoff has to be behind the LOS. My guess is that as with a lateral s long as the handoff is not forward, then it is legal. But I see something else anyway...

 

The issue I see is that Hunt's knee appears to be on the ground as he gains control of "the handoff" and he's in contact with the DE that caused the fumble. That's Hunt's Nike at the bottom of the first screenshot just left of center. While you cannot see his knee down from that angle the second screenshot clearly shows that his knee is on the ground.

In other words... Hunt was down by conduct short of the 1st down.

Tour there are "handoffs" or tosses beyond the line of scrimmage quite often. The hook and lateral plays or a speed option in which the the qb (or wr Jarvis Landry in our case) passes the line before tossing it back to the running back. Those are just extended handoffs. I think it was correctly ruled but don't think line of scrimmage has anything to do with it.  Another thing is if he had crossed the line of scrimmage and that's what made it illegal than it should have been first down since they took it back to point in which baker fumbled. It was 4th and inches so if he fully crossed the line he got the first down prior to fumbling. 

Good catch on hunt's knee being down but the question would be was he touched by an opposing player while his knee is down. If he wasn't then he would not have been ruled down by contact. 

Again regardless I don't think the refs botched this one. It was clearly a fumble.  If baker looked like he was trying to pitch it back because he knew he was being stopped short then it would be a different story. 

[bjh2130]

33 minutes ago, Comeonman said:

This is the only logical explanation I’ve heard at this point. What did the ref say?? I couldn’t hear because I was in a bar 

The ref said the ball can only be advanced by player who originally fumbled it therefore it would be taken back to the spot at which it was fumbled. That spot was determined to be short of the line to gain.  Turnover on downs 1st down jets 

[Tour2ma]

^ The above was the official explanation. My video exercise was to show that even if the "handoff theory" was valid, then we still would have been short of the line to gain.

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

But this does beg the question:

What constitutes a fumble? If a runner loses the ball and another offensive player behind him catches the ball mid-air how is that different than a pitch back?

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I'm too lazy to look it up but the rules define fumble and it's very clear. We fumbled it. I don't know HOW that dumbass fumbled it again, but he did. 

Me, too... so I let google look it up...

Article 3 Fumble.A fumble is any act, other than a pass or kick, which results in a loss of player possession.

Not really sure that helps much... but it turns out that there is a 4th-down fumble rule that is clear.

Article 5 Fourth Down Fumble.If a fourth-down fumble occurs during a play from scrimmage: (a) The ball may be advanced by any member of the defensive team. (b) The player who fumbled is the only Team A player permitted to recover and advance the ball. (c) If the recovery or catch is by a teammate of the player who fumbled, the ball is dead, and the spot of the next snap is the spot of the fumble, or the spot of the recovery if the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble.

Also found verbiage helping to define a handoff... it speaks of a transfer of the ball with "no daylight", thus differentiating it from a toss or lateral.

Bottom line... the call was proper

1 hour ago, beare said:

also whats your all opinion mon the darnold quick whistle i think that was a fumble and browns td the ball looked out before arm went forward!

Play was so close that it should have been left to play out. Refs are instructed to do this now. Had they done so, then the field ruling would be "fumble" (and TD Browns) and it would not have been overturned if the review as it happened simply let the play stand.

That said...

I never heard whether the call on the field of an incomplete pass was confirmed or simply left to stand. I suspect the latter, but replayed the whole sequence and it was never stated in the TV broadcast.

Did anyone hear which it was on radio or other?

[calfoxwc]

The Browns had already man-handled the Jets previously with qb sneaks. They bunched up to jam that play, and I was disappointed Stefanski ran it again. Once to the well too often, I think. With an intact oline, I figure they would have made it.

[Nero]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

That said...

I never heard whether the call on the field of an incomplete pass was confirmed or simply left to stand. I suspect the latter, but replayed the whole sequence and it was never stated in the TV broadcast.

Did anyone hear which it was on radio or other?

They said the call was left to stand. I agreed with Trent Green on that one, whatever the calm was, it was bound to be left to stand. Which sucks twice because we scored. 

This team should be above all of that, though. The sneak was pretty sad. 

[Canton Mike]

No matter what, we lost & yesterday's game is over. Steelers coming up & we're still in the hunt.

GO BROWNS!

Mike

[jiggins7919]

4 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

No matter what, we lost & yesterday's game is over. Steelers coming up & we're still in the hunt.

GO BROWNS!

Mike

This is what I need. Because I'm really sad. 

[browns52]

21 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Something about the Casper Rule?

I don't know much. I'm fuckin drunk and sick and tired of NFL refs. 1988 Wildcard game vs Houston, 1986 Karlis was wide left, etc. 

Beat the dreaded Steelers, somehow, some way. Exorcise the demons. Won't be easy of course.

I hate the "woe is me" stuff but today I felt it & hated it. Reality is if you're down 5 or 6 starters, you're most likely doomed. Fuuuuuuuu

 

don't fumble the ball on a qb sneak...and it was a fumble and the holy roller rule then applied as they say.....bakers fumbled the ball....end of story....the one call you really should be upset was the garrett strip and the asshole refs blew an early whistle...they were supposed to have changed that early whistle thing to let the down play out....it was a fumble and td for us...thats where we got fucked...not the baker fumble...