Orion Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 This is what I hear many 92 The Fan callers say. Why do we throw so often? We have Chubb and Hunt! I love Nick Chubb. I'm so happy that he's having personal success. (I'm sure that he's not though...because the team loses so much) But if we were to line up and just try and run the ball down the opponent's throat, Chubb would NOT have the yardage numbers that he's got this year. The running game CAN be stopped. You won't be able to run yourself all the way down the field. In fact, that would be a great way to get Chubb's 5 plus yards per carry down to 3. Freddie helps Chubb by using him as a play action decoy....and by throwing the ball. This 'sets up' the run for Chubb. We can argue that Freddie calls TOOO many pass plays (I'll actually agree with that)...but really, with rare exception, you have to pass to set up the run in today's NFL. And that's certainly what Freddie does. I love Nick Chubb! And I'm glad that we have Hunt (but I don't love him...even though he's a good RB). And I think that we should run the ball a little more....but not a WHOLE lot more because the run needs to be set up by the pass and if you eliminate the 'surprise' of a running play then you won't run as effectively. Having said that, I'd like to see more packages where both Chubb and Hunt are on the field at the same time. I think it would certainly put some fear into the front 7 of the defense. How's this for a lineup? Landry........OL OL OL OL OL...Njoku.........OBJ .............................Baker.................................... .............Hunt......................Chubb.................... (does it remind Old Timers of the Old Days?) ---------------------------if only our OL could block consistently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 Pos Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters 1987 Cleveland Browns QB Bernie Kosar* 24 2 12 241 for 389, 3,033 yards, 22 td, 9 int, & 15 rushes for 22 yards and 1 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 1st pick / 1985 Supp RB Earnest Byner 25 3 12 105 rushes for 432 yards, 8 td, & 52 catches for 552 yards and 2 td Cleveland Browns / 10th / 280th pick / 1984 FB Kevin Mack* 25 2 12 201 rushes for 735 yards, 5 td, & 32 catches for 223 yards and 1 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 11th pick / 1984 Supp WR Reggie Langhorne 24 2 12 20 catches for 288 yards, 1 td Cleveland Browns / 7th / 175th pick / 1985 WR Webster Slaughter 23 1 12 47 catches for 806 yards, 7 td Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 43rd pick / 1986 TE Ozzie Newsome 31 9 13 34 catches for 375 yards, 0 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 23rd pick / 1978 LT Paul Farren 27 4 12 1 fumble recovered Cleveland Browns / 12th / 316th pick / 1983 LG Larry Williams 24 1 8 Cleveland Browns / 10th / 259th pick / 1985 C Mike Baab 28 5 12 Cleveland Browns / 5th / 115th pick / 1982 RG Dan Fike 26 2 12 New York Jets / 10th / 274th pick / 1983 RT Cody Risien* 30 8 13 Cleveland Browns / 7th / 183rd pick / 197 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 1976 Cleveland Browns Pos Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters QB Brian Sipe 27 2 12 178 for 312, 2,113 yards, 17 td, 14 int, & 18 rushes for 71 yards and 0 td Cleveland Browns / 13th / 330th pick / 1972 RB Greg Pruitt* 25 3 13 209 rushes for 1,000 yards, 4 td, & 45 catches for 341 yards and 1 td Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 30th pick / 1973 FB Cleo Miller 24 2 12 153 rushes for 613 yards, 4 td, & 16 catches for 145 yards and 0 td WR Reggie Rucker 29 6 14 49 catches for 676 yards, 8 td, & 2 rushes for 30 yards and 0 td WR Paul Warfield 34 12 14 38 catches for 613 yards, 6 td, & 1 rush for 3 yards and 0 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 11th pick / 1964, Buffalo Bills / 4th / 28th pick / 1964 TE Oscar Roan 25 1 11 15 catches for 174 yards, 4 td Cleveland Browns / 3rd / 57th pick / 1975 LT Doug Dieken 27 5 14 2 fumbles recovered Cleveland Browns / 6th / 142nd pick / 1971 LG Pete Adams 25 2 13 1 fumble recovered Cleveland Browns / 1st / 22nd pick / 1973 C Tom DeLeone 26 4 14 Cincinnati Bengals / 5th / 106th pick / 1972 RG Robert Jackson 23 1 14 2 fumbles recovered RT Barry Darrow 26 2 14 2 fumbles recovered San Diego Chargers / 17th / 422nd pick / 1973 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 1964 Cleveland Browns Pos Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters QB Frank Ryan* 28 6 14 174 for 334, 2,404 yards, 25 td, 19 int, & 37 rushes for 217 yards and 1 td Los Angeles Rams / 5th / 55th pick / 1958 HB Ernie Green 26 2 14 109 rushes for 491 yards, 6 td, & 25 catches for 283 yards and 4 td Green Bay Packers / 14th / 196th pick / 1962 FB Jim Brown*+ 28 7 14 280 rushes for 1,446 yards, 7 td, & 36 catches for 340 yards and 2 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 6th pick / 1957 FL Gary Collins 24 2 14 35 catches for 544 yards, 8 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 4th pick / 1962, Boston Patriots / 1st / 6th pick / 1962 SE Paul Warfield* 22 Rook 14 52 catches for 920 yards, 9 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 11th pick / 1964, Buffalo Bills / 4th / 28th pick / 1964 TE Johnny Brewer 27 3 14 25 catches for 338 yards, 3 td Cleveland Browns / 4th / 41st pick / 1960 LT Dick Schafrath*+ 27 5 14 Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 23rd pick / 1959 LG John Wooten 28 5 14 Cleveland Browns / 5th / 53rd pick / 1959 C John Morrow 31 8 14 1 fumble recovered Los Angeles Rams / 28th / 336th pick / 1956 RG Gene Hickerson 29 6 12 1 fumble recovered Cleveland Browns / 7th / 78th pick / 1957 RT Monte Clark 27 5 7 San Francisco 49ers / 4th / 41st pick / 1959 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 1950 Cleveland Browns Pos Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters QB Otto Graham* 29 4 12 137 for 253, 1,943 yards, 14 td, 20 int, & 55 rushes for 145 yards and 6 td Detroit Lions / 1st / 4th pick / 1944 FB Marion Motley*+ 30 4 12 140 rushes for 810 yards, 3 td, & 11 catches for 151 yards and 1 td LH Rex Bumgardner 27 2 10 67 rushes for 231 yards, 2 td, & 9 catches for 112 yards and 1 td RH Dub Jones 26 4 12 83 rushes for 384 yards, 6 td, & 31 catches for 458 yards and 5 td Chicago Cardinals / 1st / 2nd pick / 1946 LE Mac Speedie* 30 4 12 42 catches for 548 yards, 1 td Detroit Lions / 15th / 135th pick / 1942 LT Lou Groza* 26 4 8 1 fumble recovered LG Weldon Humble* 29 3 9 2 fumbles recovered Chicago Cardinals / 24th / 224th pick / 1943 C Frank Gatski 31 4 12 1 fumble recovered RG Lin Houston 29 4 12 Chicago Bears / 11th / 106th pick / 1944 RT Lou Rymkus 31 7 12 1 fumble recovered Washington Redskins / 7th / 60th pick / 1943 RE Dante Lavelli 27 4 12 37 catches for 565 yards, 5 td Los Angeles Rams / 12th / 103rd pick / 1947 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 I started watching the BROWNS in the late 1950s, I've seen most of them play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 And the 2019 Cleveland Browns Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters QB Baker Mayfield 24 1 13 255 for 431, 3,109 yards, 15 td, 16 int, & 20 rushes for 97 yards and 3 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 1st pick / 2018 RB Nick Chubb 24 1 13 253 rushes for 1,281 yards, 7 td, & 32 catches for 256 yards and 0 td Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 35th pick / 2018 WR Odell Beckham 27 5 13 59 catches for 844 yards, 2 td, & 3 rushes for 10 yards and 0 td New York Giants / 1st / 12th pick / 2014 WR Jarvis Landry 27 5 13 69 catches for 995 yards, 5 td, & 1 rush for 10 yards and 0 td Miami Dolphins / 2nd / 63rd pick / 2014 T Chris Hubbard 28 6 11 T Greg Robinson 27 5 11 St. Louis Rams / 1st / 2nd pick / 2014 G Joel Bitonio 28 5 13 Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 35th pick / 2014 G Eric Kush 30 6 7 Kansas City Chiefs / 6th / 170th pick / 2013 C J.C. Tretter 28 6 13 Green Bay Packers / 4th / 122nd pick / 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Orion said: Landry........OL OL OL OL OL...Njoku.........OBJ .............................Baker.................................... .............Hunt......................Chubb.................... "Illegal Formation! The TE, an eligible receiver, was covered on the LOS. Five-yard penalty... repeat 1st down." Thru Week 13 we've run the ball 331 times and passed 436 times... that's a 43/57 split good for 13th highest in the league so we're middle of the pack. Link shows two teams run over half the time (BLT and SF) and two are virtually 50/50 (MN and SEA). Generally better teams run more, but there are exceptions, e.g., KC and NE. At the opposite end of the spectrum sits ATL who passes a full 2/3rds of the time... https://fftoday.com/stats/19_run_pass_ratios.html I used to have a source on percentage of time teams play with the lead/behind, but can' find it. That obviously impacts the run/pass ratio. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 I don't disagree that we should have been toting the rock more in the 1st half, BUT to play devils advocate we do have the leading rusher in the NFL. Our schemes running the ball with Hunt are honestly impressive. Here's the thing I'm going to say to anyone in the "running is dead" conversation. The top rushing per game by team? Ravens, 49ers, Seahawks, Vikings, Bills. Arguably the best two teams in the AFC and NFC and playoff teams down from there. Not a coincidence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted December 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, jrb12711 said: Not a coincidence. Well, actually Baltimore's running attack is their QB. They're kind of an exception for right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiggins7919 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 I was as frustrated as anyone regarding the lack of rushing attack in the first half, but the truth of the matter is our defense is MOSTLY to blame. Why? Because they couldn't hardly EVER force a punt! We didn't have the freaking ball in the first half, and I know many people want to pan the offense, but truth be told, we moved the ball. The one really good drive we had to start the game was going very well until Njoku failed to secure the rock and the refs effed up and called it a fumble/interception. That should have been first and ten from the 13. The biggest problem I had in terms of running the ball came at an INTEGRAL time of the game. We forced our only 3 and out of the game and got EXCELLENT field position around the 50. We had ALL the momentum. So we run the ball, right? Nope. We dial up a freaking deep shot to OBJ and our TE ends up being 1 on 1 with their best pass rusher and Baker can't do anything but take a sack. Drive over. Now, on that same drive, I think OBJ almost makes a circus catch, but honestly it wasn't that close. Then on 3rd down, OBJ did what he's done all year and couldn't come down with the contested catch for 1st down. A catch very similar to the one Jarvis made on 3rd and 15. Was it a VERY difficult catch? Oh yeah. Did OBJ take a shot to the nuts? Yep. But you'd like for your $15 million WR to make that grab. That sets us up 1st and 10 at the 30 and gives us a chance to end the game. There were other positives about the game that I want to write about later. It wasn't great by any means, but Jesus, we won and game and I'm tired of people blaming the offense. The Bengals possessed the ball for so many lengthy drives, and they had just no pressure. Our offense can't score without the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Orion said: Well, actually Baltimore's running attack is their QB. They're kind of an exception for right now. And the hazard of having a running quarterback as your main man, they're not like interchangeable RBs. Lamar Jackson QB Dec 9 Questionable Coach John Harbaugh said Jackson hurt his quadriceps on a low hit Sunday at Buffalo, and the Ravens will take a "wait-and-see" approach with his situation, Jeff Zrebiec of The Athletic reports. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Orion said: Well, actually Baltimore's running attack is their QB. They're kind of an exception for right now. I'm really not sure how that alters my point in any way. IDC if the center is running the ball, rush yards are rush yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 How's this for a lineup? Landry........OL OL OL OL OL...Njoku.........OBJ .............................Baker.................................... .............Hunt......................Chubb.................... (does it remind Old Timers of the Old Days?) ---------------------------if only our OL could block consistently. So, yea....as someone said elsewhere, our OL is Tretter/Bitonio...and who knows who else from week to week. So, yes, our offensive on field weak link is our OL.....but, of course, our bigger offensive weak link appears to be the Kitchens/Monken combination which at times appears clueless or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 If you notice that the great Cleveland Browns teams (in the running era) all featured great RBs with a good line and more than adequate QBs and WRs. They also had good defenses for point control and good field position. A balanced attack.....as old as football itself. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb12711 Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 4 hours ago, The Gipper said: How's this for a lineup? Landry........OL OL OL OL OL...Njoku.........OBJ .............................Baker.................................... .............Hunt......................Chubb.................... (does it remind Old Timers of the Old Days?) ---------------------------if only our OL could block consistently. So, yea....as someone said elsewhere, our OL is Tretter/Bitonio...and who knows who else from week to week. So, yes, our offensive on field weak link is our OL.....but, of course, our bigger offensive weak link appears to be the Kitchens/Monken combination which at times appears clueless or worse. I won't at all be against taking a LT in the draft, to be clear. But in this regard, I'm 110% with you. Our line is consistently ranking "middle of pack" in week to week rankings. I'd argue their overall ranking via NFL (14th) is even skewed downward a bit as we were down 3? starters for two weeks early in the season. Your latter point has been the much, much more important problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted December 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 7 hours ago, The Gipper said: So, yea....as someone said elsewhere, our OL is Tretter/Bitonio...and who knows who else from week to week. That was me. And it's a part of why we can't do too much of either, run or pass. We've got to set the defensive up for either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icecube Posted December 10, 2019 Report Share Posted December 10, 2019 18 hours ago, mjp28 said: Pos Player Age Yrs GS Summary of Player Stats Drafted (tm/rnd/yr) Offensive Starters 1987 Cleveland Browns QB Bernie Kosar* 24 2 12 241 for 389, 3,033 yards, 22 td, 9 int, & 15 rushes for 22 yards and 1 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 1st pick / 1985 Supp RB Earnest Byner 25 3 12 105 rushes for 432 yards, 8 td, & 52 catches for 552 yards and 2 td Cleveland Browns / 10th / 280th pick / 1984 FB Kevin Mack* 25 2 12 201 rushes for 735 yards, 5 td, & 32 catches for 223 yards and 1 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 11th pick / 1984 Supp WR Reggie Langhorne 24 2 12 20 catches for 288 yards, 1 td Cleveland Browns / 7th / 175th pick / 1985 WR Webster Slaughter 23 1 12 47 catches for 806 yards, 7 td Cleveland Browns / 2nd / 43rd pick / 1986 TE Ozzie Newsome 31 9 13 34 catches for 375 yards, 0 td Cleveland Browns / 1st / 23rd pick / 1978 LT Paul Farren 27 4 12 1 fumble recovered Cleveland Browns / 12th / 316th pick / 1983 LG Larry Williams 24 1 8 Cleveland Browns / 10th / 259th pick / 1985 C Mike Baab 28 5 12 Cleveland Browns / 5th / 115th pick / 1982 RG Dan Fike 26 2 12 New York Jets / 10th / 274th pick / 1983 RT Cody Risien* 30 8 13 Cleveland Browns / 7th / 183rd pick / 197 THAT was a good team. And I'd take Marty right NOW over what we have at HC. Marty was a much better coach than his general legacy has him. And he did a great job in KC too, and even made the Skins and Bolts better than others have since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted December 11, 2019 Report Share Posted December 11, 2019 50 minutes ago, Icecube said: THAT was a good team. And I'd take Marty right NOW over what we have at HC. Marty was a much better coach than his general legacy has him. And he did a great job in KC too, and even made the Skins and Bolts better than others have since. Marty was a very good regular season head coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacosman Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 People who want to 'establish the run' and run more don't understand efficiency and such. The reality is we, and most teams, should be running even less. Baltimore is a horrible example. Subtract all of Jackson's runs for starters as they are not traditional runs(the scrambles or the designed runs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorka Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3916387/lamar-jackson This was Jackson breakout year. I have faith that defenses will have learned how to play this guy when next season rolls along. Just like they did Baker. The Browns shut him down tho, the only team able to do so it seems. We'll see if that holds up when they play again. Most shocking stat is his TD completion improvement over last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hx214 Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Gorka said: https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3916387/lamar-jackson This was Jackson breakout year. I have faith that defenses will have learned how to play this guy when next season rolls along. Just like they did Baker. The Browns shut him down tho, the only team able to do so it seams. We'll see if that holds up when they play again. Most shocking stat is his TD completion improvement over last year. It won't. They are missing to many guys on defense and at that point the Browns won't even have their 4% playoff chance so half the team will give up. The Ravens will win and we will have to hear how awesome they are for the rest of the off season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted December 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Gorka said: The Browns shut him down tho, the only team able to do so Early in the season the Ravens tried to make him more of a traditional QB with running more of a last resort type of thing. After we shut him down they said, Fuck That! We're gonna get our assess handed to us. He's gonna make our lousy tackling secondary look like a lousy tackling secondary. (of course, I HOPE not) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorka Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, Orion said: Early in the season the Ravens tried to make him more of a traditional QB with running more of a last resort type of thing. After we shut him down they said, Fuck That! We're gonna get our assess handed to us. He's gonna make our lousy tackling secondary look like a lousy tackling secondary. (of course, I HOPE not) Good point. Unfortunately. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzz2 Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 If opposing teams don't respect the pass, then Defenses' overload the box. We all know this. I'm perfectly fine with how were handling this as of now. Just not enough rocks to go around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorka Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 43 minutes ago, Orion said: Early in the season the Ravens tried to make him more of a traditional QB with running more of a last resort type of thing. After we shut him down they said, Fuck That! We're gonna get our assess handed to us. He's gonna make our lousy tackling secondary look like a lousy tackling secondary. (of course, I HOPE not) What I should have said to this post was Thanks. Thanks a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero Posted December 13, 2019 Report Share Posted December 13, 2019 Chubb has been the best player of the team the entire season. Silent worker, speaks with his actions, and doesn't brag. I think we're running just fine,maybe Hunt isn't getting the ball a lot, but I can take that. The thing that I liked the most against the Bengals was using both of them in some formations. Both are good receivers and can block, so using both at the same time makes a lot of mismatch opportunities. I especially loved a play they ran at least twice: first time Chubb faked a run to the right with the line blocking to that side, while Hunt received a screen pass on the left side with all the defense moving to the opposite side. Later in the game, defense went for Hunt and Chubb had a big rush to the right. Let's keep them guessing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjp28 Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 7 hours ago, Orion said: Early in the season the Ravens tried to make him more of a traditional QB with running more of a last resort type of thing. After we shut him down they said, Fuck That! We're gonna get our assess handed to us. He's gonna make our lousy tackling secondary look like a lousy tackling secondary. (of course, I HOPE not) And yet the early lines only show CLE +7 so should we jump on BAL at that line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted December 14, 2019 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 1 hour ago, mjp28 said: And yet the early lines only show CLE +7 so should we jump on BAL at that line? If I were a betting man, I would. But I'm not, so I won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted December 14, 2019 Report Share Posted December 14, 2019 On 12/13/2019 at 12:32 PM, Orion said: Early in the season the Ravens tried to make him more of a traditional QB with running more of a last resort type of thing. After we shut him down they said, Fuck That! We're gonna get our assess handed to us. He's gonna make our lousy tackling secondary look like a lousy tackling secondary. (of course, I HOPE not) Not what I remember, O, so I did a little PFR digging... https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackLa00.htm In their Greg Roman revamped Louisville style Offense, BLT came into the season prepared to run Lamar as much as necessary. In Week 1 he did not have to in a laugher over MIA in which he sat midway thru Q3, but in Week 2 he ran 16 times for 120 in a close win over AZ. Week 3 vs. KC the Ravens trailed by 8 midway thru the 2nd and by 17 at the half. Playing from behind forced BLT to the pass. LJ passed a season high 43 times and ran only 8 for 46. He was sacked 3 times. In Week 4 we scored first and took a 10-7 lead into the half before going up by 14 late in the third. BLT closed to within 6 early in the 4th, but then Chubb broke his 88-yd TD run seconds later. In the game Lamar threw 34 times and ran 9. He was sacked 4 times and we picked him twice. Bottom line: We and KC jumped out to leads forcing BLT to abandon the run... including the running of their RPO QB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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