Browns Bengals Gameday Thread

[jiggins7919]

7 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

   I believe that is the best solution to the problem. Monken is known for his field stretching offense, which is not smart given a struggling offensive line. Which was a point in the video - no crossing/outlet patterns etc, all wr's went long. Bigtime stress on the offensive line.

I honestly thought the offense looked better than many people think. I can't think of too many 3 and outs, and when we had it, we moved it. Baker had the one pick on that deep ball that was JUST off, and if it's a foot closer who knows what happens. Kind of been that way all year, ya know? Then the Njoku fumble-pick snafu after a good drive, and then the rest of the day our defense couldn't get the damn ball back. They were getting GASHED over and over again, and the sad thing is at one point the Bengals were like 2-8 on 3rd down, but they basically doubled time of possession. They were hardly even GETTING to 3rd down, that's how bad our defense was. They had drives of like 5 minutes, 4 minutes, 8 minutes, and lord knows what else. We simply couldn't get the freakin rock back. 

I'll tell you right now, our defense will have to step up next week because Arizona WILL beat us if we don't play better. I see a situation where our offense will have to score 30 or we'll probably take a loss. 

[The Gipper]

10 hours ago, Orion said:

Our offensive line is Joel Bitonio, JC Tretter, and 3 other guys.  Week to week, us sitting on our couches aren't even sure who the 3 other guys will be.  One week a guy is a starter, the next he's benched and some 'other' guy plays, and then the next week the first guy is back in.  No matter what the 'coach speak' of the week is, it's obvious that they wish they had better players to stick at LT, RT & RG.  We do not have a cohesive OL.   As has been said, a great many of us were concerned about those 3 positions all offseason long.  Contrary to a past, not to be named, board member....you cannot just take any ol' five fat-asses and stick them on the OL.  They have to meet a minimum talent standard

Yep

[browns52]

6 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

I honestly thought the offense looked better than many people think. I can't think of too many 3 and outs, and when we had it, we moved it. Baker had the one pick on that deep ball that was JUST off, and if it's a foot closer who knows what happens. Kind of been that way all year, ya know? Then the Njoku fumble-pick snafu after a good drive, and then the rest of the day our defense couldn't get the damn ball back. They were getting GASHED over and over again, and the sad thing is at one point the Bengals were like 2-8 on 3rd down, but they basically doubled time of possession. They were hardly even GETTING to 3rd down, that's how bad our defense was. They had drives of like 5 minutes, 4 minutes, 8 minutes, and lord knows what else. We simply couldn't get the freakin rock back. 

I'll tell you right now, our defense will have to step up next week because Arizona WILL beat us if we don't play better. I see a situation where our offense will have to score 30 or we'll probably take a loss. 

the d is totally horrible....it won't change....at this point in the season, you are what you are...you may see a flicker of hope here and there, but in the end, we will get slashed and gashed....i see murray running for many many yds on sunday opening up their passing game in which we will get hammered...i see yodell screaming at our coaching staff again as the season comes to an end for the poor ole clowns....

[The Gipper]

11 minutes ago, browns52 said:

the d is totally horrible....it won't change....at this point in the season, you are what you are...you may see a flicker of hope here and there, but in the end, we will get slashed and gashed....i see murray running for many many yds on sunday opening up their passing game in which we will get hammered...i see yodell screaming at our coaching staff again as the season comes to an end for the poor ole clowns....

Well....we HAVE taken some hits on defense:   Garrett...out;  Burnett...out.   Kirksey...out.   Vernon...out most of the time *(WTF).  How many games did Ward miss?  And Randall?

We have played some games with third string DBs. 

So, sure, it is next man up.    But the fact is, in this league....starters are starters for a reason, and backups are backups for a reason. 

[jiggins7919]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well....we HAVE taken some hits on defense:   Garrett...out;  Burnett...out.   Kirksey...out.   Vernon...out most of the time *(WTF).  How many games did Ward miss?  And Randall?

We have played some games with third string DBs. 

So, sure, it is next man up.    But the fact is, in this league....starters are starters for a reason, and backups are backups for a reason. 

That's just it. Wilkes' system is predicated on getting pressure with 4, and since we're literally down to our 5th and 6th string DEs, we're not getting consistent pressures AT ALL. Much of this is bad luck, a ton is Myles Garrett's fault, and some blame is on John Dorsey. Genard Avery gets traded and doesn't play at all and then we lose Vernon for basically the year. Why trade him? Makes no sense. Making matters worse, Dorsey drafted Chad freakin Thomas in the THIRD ROUND and that guy is totally worthless. Dorsey missed on Corbett and Thomas in subsequent rounds. You can't do that! Regardless of getting Chubb with the extra 2nd rounder. 

[The Gipper]

Just now, jiggins7919 said:

That's just it. Wilkes' system is predicated on getting pressure with 4, and since we're literally down to our 5th and 6th string DEs, we're not getting consistent pressures AT ALL. Much of this is bad luck, a ton is Myles Garrett's fault, and some blame is on John Dorsey. Genard Avery gets traded and doesn't play at all and then we lose Vernon for basically the year. Why trade him? Makes no sense. Making matters worse, Dorsey drafted Chad freakin Thomas in the THIRD ROUND and that guy is totally worthless. Dorsey missed on Corbett and Thomas in subsequent rounds. You can't do that! Regardless of getting Chubb with the extra 2nd rounder. 

Actually, I thought Chad Thomas had several pressures, and a sack on Sunday.   Didn't he? 

[tiamat63]

Chad has actually been contributing when called on and has shown some signs of good development.  I was iffy on that one but it might turn out to be a solid pick.

[jiggins7919]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Actually, I thought Chad Thomas had several pressures, and a sack on Sunday.   Didn't he? 

His pressure came off a blown assignment where he was unblocked and Dalton threw it away on 3rd down. Not sure about a sack...I can't seem to picture it. However, The 5th and 6th string DEs are playing better than him. Chad Thomas generally has one "flash play" a game, but other than that, he's garbage. He's bad against the pass and worse against the run (his supposed speciality). Trust me, he's atrocious. 

His overall grade against a degenerative offensive line was abominable. Not decent, not even bad...it was abominable. You remember all those times Dalton had 30 minutes in the pocket? Chad Thomas. Do you recall Joe Mixon running all over the place? Chad Thomas. Do you perhaps RECOLLECT Andy Dalton leading the Bengals on drives lasting 6 minutes, 8 minutes, 4 minutes, and 5 minutes? Chad Thomas. 

OK, I was having a bit of fun, and obviously the entire state of the defense can't be blamed on this guy, but trust the Jiggins...he's hot garbage and Dorsey totally effed us yet again on another pick. You know who Dorsey's best pick might be? Sheldrick Redwine. A guy I thought had NO chance but has really started grading out well lately. 

[The Gipper]

9 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

His pressure came off a blown assignment where he was unblocked and Dalton threw it away on 3rd down. Not sure about a sack...I can't seem to picture it. However, The 5th and 6th string DEs are playing better than him. Chad Thomas generally has one "flash play" a game, but other than that, he's garbage. He's bad against the pass and worse against the run (his supposed speciality). Trust me, he's atrocious. 

Sorry, but I don't trust you on this.  I am not saying he is spectacular....but there is enough variance of opinion on him that your word is not determinative. 

Here are his stats for the year:

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/players-roster/chad-thomas/

4 sacks, which is pretty fair for a non starter.   

[jiggins7919]

9 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Sorry, but I don't trust you on this.  I am not saying he is spectacular....but there is enough variance of opinion on him that your word is not determinative. 

Here are his stats for the year:

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/players-roster/chad-thomas/

4 sacks, which is pretty fair for a non starter.   

Hehehehe. I get where you are coming from. Trust me. Chad will literally burst through the line once or twice a game and make you go, "Oooooooooooooo!" 

But it's the consistency that kills him, especially against the run. I'm not someone who puts ALL his stock in PFF, but I tend to listen when they put out their game ratings. I want to say that Chad actually had a very solid game recently, but again, it's the consistency. Mostly, he's rated toward the bottom of the barrel. 

And honestly, I'd be ecstatic for Chad Thomas' production if he was an undrafted free agent. But he's not. He's a 3rd round pick! Ugh. 

[The Gipper]

7 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Hehehehe. I get where you are coming from. Trust me. Chad will literally burst through the line once or twice a game and make you go, "Oooooooooooooo!" 

But it's the consistency that kills him, especially against the run. I'm not someone who puts ALL his stock in PFF, but I tend to listen when they put out their game ratings. I want to say that Chad actually had a very solid game recently, but again, it's the consistency. Mostly, he's rated toward the bottom of the barrel. 

Well...he has been inactive for like 4 of the Browns games.  You can't produce from the inactive list. 

He has had 20 tackles in 9 games.  Or 2.---  tackles per game.   Not sure what is normal for a backup DE.

Should we expect a lot more from a third round pick?  Perhaps.  

But with Garrett out, and Vernon still sketchy....he is our guy, I guess, at this point in time.  So, we are going to have to live with him.

And I still don't trust you. 

[bjh2130]

41 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Hehehehe. I get where you are coming from. Trust me. Chad will literally burst through the line once or twice a game and make you go, "Oooooooooooooo!" 

But it's the consistency that kills him, especially against the run. I'm not someone who puts ALL his stock in PFF, but I tend to listen when they put out their game ratings. I want to say that Chad actually had a very solid game recently, but again, it's the consistency. Mostly, he's rated toward the bottom of the barrel. 

And honestly, I'd be ecstatic for Chad Thomas' production if he was an undrafted free agent. But he's not. He's a 3rd round pick! Ugh. 

Chad was the highest graded defender against Miami.  I believe that to be the game you are thinking about. 

I also think you are overestimating avery. He's not a defensive end. He's a perfect outside linebacker for the 3-4 but not big enough for a 4-3 defensive end.  The reason he was traded is wilkes defense typically only plays two linebackers and he wants then to excel in pass coverage situations.  Even if we still had avery he wouldn't be playing defensive end other than maybe situational 3rd and obvious passing downs and be wouldn't be on the field as a linebacker because be doesn't excel at what the scheme needs linebackers to do. Even when he played last year it was mainly (75-85%) to rush the passer from his linebacker spot. He rarely dropped off into coverage. 

[Orion]

From what I saw, 94 (Bryan Cox) was better than 92.  

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, bjh2130 said:

Chad was the highest graded defender against Miami.  I believe that to be the game you are thinking about. 

I also think you are overestimating avery. He's not a defensive end. He's a perfect outside linebacker for the 3-4 but not big enough for a 4-3 defensive end.  The reason he was traded is wilkes defense typically only plays two linebackers and he wants then to excel in pass coverage situations.  Even if we still had avery he wouldn't be playing defensive end other than maybe situational 3rd and obvious passing downs and be wouldn't be on the field as a linebacker because be doesn't excel at what the scheme needs linebackers to do. Even when he played last year it was mainly (75-85%) to rush the passer from his linebacker spot. He rarely dropped off into coverage. 

Well....I question that  4-2-5 scheme at times.  I think you get killed in the run game with that. 

[jiggins7919]

10 hours ago, bjh2130 said:

I also think you are overestimating avery. He's not a defensive end. He's a perfect outside linebacker for the 3-4 but not big enough for a 4-3 defensive end.  The reason he was traded is wilkes defense typically only plays two linebackers and he wants then to excel in pass coverage situations.  Even if we still had avery he wouldn't be playing defensive end other than maybe situational 3rd and obvious passing downs and be wouldn't be on the field as a linebacker because be doesn't excel at what the scheme needs linebackers to do. Even when he played last year it was mainly (75-85%) to rush the passer from his linebacker spot. He rarely dropped off into coverage. 

You're exactly right, and what I meant to emphasize is that the loss of Avery hurts our ability to rush the passer, even if he's not a classical DE in our system.  We simply need guys that can get pressures, and statistically, Avery was able to do that at a decent clip as a rookie.  Right now, we aren't able to get consistent pressure without bringing extra guys, and even then, it's not working all that well.  To be fair, I can't think of too many teams that can lose their starting DE's and still maintain steady pressure, and when you add in the fact one of these guys was Myles Garrett, that hurts even more.  I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but Myles Garrett could very well of cost us any chance at a post season.  I really believe that Pittsburgh game goes differently if he's in there, and Demarious Randall screwed us as well.  

Offensively, many analysts and fans want to say how much of a mess we were Sunday, and to a degree, they're somewhat correct, but as I re-watched the game, I saw an offense that moved the ball and was about a foot away from multiple big plays.  For one, the Njoku fumble/interception was crap, and that should've been our ball at the 13 yard line, 1st and ten.  That would have been at LEAST a FG, and probably a TD with the way we were marching it down their throats.  Then our offense misses a possession because we get the pick-6, something we're definitely not complaining about, but it still messes with their flow.  Our offense was sitting down for a LONG time, SEVERAL times throughout the contest.  We finally get the ball back and Baker misses by about a foot down the field and it's picked off again.  

We get the ball back before half and we've got excellent field position.  This is the drive that really hurts because it's 1st and 10 at about the 50 and we've got all the momentum.  I think there's 5 minutes to go in the half and we get the ball to start the 3rd quarter.  We could've used some clock, moved the ball, and gotten a score to end the half in an ideal world.  So surely we run the ball the begin the drive, right?  Nope.  We dial up a deep shot, likely to OBJ, and we end up with a TE blocking Cincy's best pass rusher.  This is another "what if" play because if we can make the block, there's a chance this goes for a TD, or maybe just an incompletion.  But we don't, and now we're behind the sticks.  Baker then goes to OBJ twice in a row.  On 2nd down, OBJ almost makes an incredible catch on a terrific ball from Baker.  It's probably off by about a foot, which is the theme.  He doesn't catch it cleanly, and he can't get both feet in bounds.  Then on 3rd down, the pass is slightly high which caused OBJ to jump and get drilled.  He can't hold onto it, and we punt.  Again, that ball is high by about a foot, and if it's down, it's likely 1st and 10 at their 30.

My biggest concern with the offense is Baker and Freddie appear to be forcing the ball to OBJ and Landry.  That drive I just mentioned is a terrific example.  I understand taking a deep shot, but did Freddie make that call because he wants to make OBJ happy?  Doesn't a run make more sense right there?  Get the clock moving, probably pick up some yards, get into 2nd and manageable?  I'll give you another example of forcing the ball, and it really could have cost us a chance to win.  Our last drive of the game, Baker does a rollout and has Hunt wide open in front of him.  We just picked up a huge first down after being backed up by our end zone, and a second first down would really be a nasty blow to the defense.  Furthermore, getting the ball to Hunt in space is ALWAYS a good move because he's just so difficult to tackle.  SURELY Baker flips him the ball for the needed 5 yards and the easy first down, right?  RIGHT?!!

Nope.  Baker inexplicably forces a tight sideline throw down the field to Landry who really isn't that open.  He might have a half a step, which is all he usually needs, but Landry isn't able to secure the catch, and it goes incomplete.  

This incompletion sets off a chain reaction that very easily could’ve cost us the game.  Not ONLY does it stop the clock when we’re trying to deplete it, the very next play is the force to OBJ where he gets picked off.  1^st and 10 Cincy at our 20, down 8!  But wait!  Immediately after the play BJH was hollering about pass interference, and he was right.  The defender gets there early and causes the ball to pop up in the air.  But surely the NFL won’t overturn this, right?!  WRONG!  The call goes our way and we’re able to get ANOTHER review call, and we effectively wind out the clock and kick a FG. 

The point is it really looks like we’re forcing the ball to these guys.  Heck, Baker should’ve thrown ANOTHER pick after blindly throwing an RPO slant to OBJ, but the defender dropped it.  It probably would’ve been a pick-6.  On the interception that was overturned, Baker again locks onto to OBJ and fires it at him.  Do you guys remember that year with Brian Hoyer and we were playing decently, but mid-year we got Josh Gordon back and it totally messed up our offense because we kept trying to force him the ball?  That’s what it looks like on a weekly basis.  I’m also tired of reading that OBJ is constantly lined up incorrectly or isn’t running his routes with precision.  This information comes from trusted sources and I’ve read it multiple times throughout the year.

Anyways, this post is about 50 times longer than I anticipated, but we’ve got to find the balance between getting our playmakers involved vs taking what’s available.  I feel like Baker is regressing from last year, and I’m not sure it’s all his fault.  Remember last year when it’d be halftime and Baker would have completions to 6 different receivers?  That’s when he’s at his best.  Scanning the field, finding the open guy, distributing the ball.  And we can’t use the OL as an excuse because they had their best game of the season Sunday.  Baker is locking on and not trusting himself, and this needs to get sorted out next year because this isn’t going to work. 

 

[calfoxwc]

The point about Hunt being open after sneaking out of the backfield is huge. The intention, I guess, is to be a big play offense. But throwing to OBJ, to keep him being effective as a diversion (while playing hurt and needing surgery later), they have to throw to him once in a while, I suppose. But those wide open shorter shots to Hunt... it ends up being a wasted down most of the time? all too often?

When a simple throw to Hunt would get a first down, send him rampaging for a nice gain? BTW, where's HIggins already?

I believe Baker will adjust in time to beat the cards.

 

[Tour2ma]

On 12/9/2019 at 5:32 PM, tiamat63 said:

I wasn't about to make a new thread but I would highly encourage a good lot of you to watch this video.   He does some solid work.  Though I've disagreed with some of his conclusions in the past (Darnold, Peppers, a few others) this is the type of work I can really respect because of the intelligence put into it. 

Pay close attention to the 6:40 mark.  You'll notice the analysis and stats there that reinforce what a couple of us here have been saying since week 2.

 

On 12/9/2019 at 5:58 PM, tiamat63 said:

@Tour2ma.    We talk about Bakers mental clock from the Gun vs Under Center.     The above video makes a good point highlighting Bakers punch step from his gun drop.    He doesn't have luxury comfort step from under center.   I would suspect that has a lot to do with him not having been sped up and therefore stepping up into the pocket by the time his back foot hits on his drop.

Really good vid. Normally I'd have edited it out of the quote for compactness, but here I left it because this post will go to a new page and so may be seen for the first time by additional folks.

I know that we did talk about Baker's clearly greater comfort, confidence and success under center, but did not identify a reason beyond more effective play action. That what amounts to a wasted, false step by Baker when operating from the gun escaped me. Not wasting a step is lesson #1 in OL play no matter the direction of the movement. Not seeing it in Baker's shotgun drop is embarrassing. Now it feels like I'll be seeing it everywhere... at every position.

I wish I could come to the same conclusion as the vid's creator, that formation and playcalling can compensate for Baker's flaw, but I can't. I see a fatal flaw that will surface whenever we have to play from behind.

On 12/9/2019 at 8:25 PM, tiamat63 said:

The comparison of Baker to Brady wasn't in accomplishment or ability, but in highlighting how they prefer to set in the pocket.  Footwork and depth.   Just simple mechanical comparison.      Judging by your comment that flew over your head.   

Or putting it simply... Kal missed the major point of the entire 20+minute video.

[Tour2ma]

16 hours ago, Orion said:

From what I saw, 94 (Bryan Cox) was better than 92.  

We've a couple of fresh-legged kids playing well the past couple weeks. Question is how long they'll enjoy the advantage of being fresh, unknown quantities.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

I know that we did talk about Baker's clearly greater comfort, confidence and success under center, but did not identify a reason beyond more effective play action. That what amounts to a wasted, false step by Baker when operating from the gun escaped me. Not wasting a step is lesson #1 in OL play no matter the direction of the movement. Not seeing it in Baker's shotgun drop is embarrassing. Now it feels like I'll be seeing it everywhere... at every position.

I wish I could come to the same conclusion as the vid's creator, that formation and playcalling can compensate for Baker's flaw, but I can't. I see a fatal flaw that will surface whenever we have to play from behind.

Or putting it simply... Kal missed the major point of the entire 20+minute video.

 

The "wasted step" really isn't that in this case for Baker.     Now I grant you, wasted steps as a lineman or as a linebacker are HUUUUUUGE.   I can't personally speak on experience as the former but having played as a 4th backer and/or weakside spot at the latter, I've seen guys not as athletic as some others find success playing the position based on eyes, instincts and their footwork.  As opposed to some athletic specimens who don't find success playing because they lack those traits.      For this instance, I see it as simply how Baker begins his set.  I kind of draw it as being similar to watching a QB's first plant step from under center.  You drive out with what forward foot to get away from the line.   That, in respect to Bakers height, helps start him on that "comfortable" pocket depth to read, process, find his receiver and have the throwing lane.  

It isn't so much a flaw as it is a byproduct of necessity relating to his physical stature and adjusting as a thrower from the pocket (IMHO).   Alleviating the issue the jab step causes is a two part solution.   

1st - play calling.  You simply don't want to straight drop in the gun and fire away.  We've been saying that since week 10 of last year.  So that really isn't new information.    Play action, even from the gun really helped to address the issue. I disagree with Brett saying you can't run traps or power from the gun - you very much can.  But you're going to need creative coaches and the right personnel for that.   Even then, ball action fakes are always more effective from under center.   But, as of typing this, going under center and running the offense from there has given us the best results.   I think this also lends an explanation to where Higgins has gone as a 3rd receiver.   I asked for more 12 personnel and we're seeing more of it. Bigger bodies are on the field to help sell that run action.  So when we do dial up passes, play action, vertical, whatever, you're using your two best weapons the bulk of the time- OBJ and Landry.

2nd -   Personnel & Pass pro.   I'm huge on interior pocket integrity for every QB, but especially for short(er) ones.  I guess I misjudged just how ready Baker was to help mitigate edge pressure.  Him having to consistently climb the pocket is really looking like a big issue for his set and delivery.  One of the reasons why, though I've preached about how he needs to work on better manipulating the pocket by sliding laterally, he'll likely always have a bit of a struggle there based on his height.   Even Breesy has some problems with that at times and he's a HOF'er.     Honestly, that makes the tackle situation priority #1 for this upcoming draft and free agency.   If Baker has to be further behind the line, we're going to need the premium money on the bookends to make sure our QB can do his thing.

 

Next year is going to be a big deal because that 2nd contract money to Baker is going to start creeping into the mind of Dorsey.  By this time 2020 you're going to have to ask yourself " is this our long term solution at QB?".   Because the salary cap is no joke and handing primo $$$ to a so-so QB is the sure fire way to fuck your books for a couple seasons.

 

 

And... yeah...  Cal pretty much skipped to 6:40, missed the point, came back here and didn't bother watching the rest of the video.

[gumby73]

 Da Browns caught filming? ... Loaded with G00D stuff ^^... from Myles/helmet chap stick/Miami game/Gillian living a dream/ to Bengals win.. ENJOy ^^^ block out the outside noise and Go Win in ZonA !!        

[Tour2ma]

On 12/11/2019 at 3:44 PM, tiamat63 said:

Next year is going to be a big deal because that 2nd contract money to Baker is going to start creeping into the mind of Dorsey.  By this time 2020 you're going to have to ask yourself " is this our long term solution at QB?".   Because the salary cap is no joke and handing primo $$$ to a so-so QB is the sure fire way to fuck your books for a couple seasons.

Brings back my oldest adage to mind...

You're always looking for your next QB... how hard is determined by your current starter.

[jiggins7919]

14 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Brings back my oldest adage to mind...

You're always looking for your next QB... how hard is determined by your current starter.

Yep. You definitely don't want to get into a situation like the Rams, Ravens, or Bengals where you LIKE your QB, but you have to pay him huge mega bucks even though you don't LOVE him. 

I gotta say, I don't think Baker is going to struggle like this ever again. I actually think this year will end up being the absolute best thing to ever happen to him, and now he's going to know EXACTLY how hard he has to work and EXACTLY what will be expected of him in the future.

I also thoroughly believe we must keep Freddie Kitchens and that installing a new offense could be career suicide for Baker. I know he didn't look great against a very poor Bengals defense, but if you look at his 3rd down passing numbers, he produced when you needed him the most.