Westside Steve Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Here's a little factoid. Over 30,000 gun deaths per year in America. Over 30,000 traffic deaths per year in America. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Here's a little factoid. Over 30,000 gun deaths per year in America. Over 30,000 traffic deaths per year in America. WSS About ~19,000 of those are suicides, to be fair I wouldn't classify a suicide as gun violence, but there are studies that say gun ownership increases suicides (You have access to a gun, easier to go grab it and pull the trigger on impulse I guess) ~64% of all homicides involve guns. Most traffic deaths per year are not intentional (though you could grab an involuntary manslaughter if you weren't paying attention or drinking, etc.) - while homicides are naturally intended to kill someone. Also I'm not sure on the numbers for injuries (not death) caused by guns and caused by cars - I suspect that ones more balanced. Really I have no idea what I'm talking about I'm just rattling relevant statistics - work days about over, I'm pro-gun ownership really anyway - at least for responsible sane people like myself. I wouldn't mind stricter checks required for people getting a gun (whatever they may be), since I have nothing to hide myself. Gun shows are a big problem with under the table deals, I imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Stricter how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 There are many, many things at play besides the gun, and in an ideal world, having guns for self defence would not be necessary, and for sport would not be a problem at all. But we don't live in an ideal world. Bad/stupid people are the reason we can't have nice things. ISIS is like a guy with mental problems - it sure would be great if we could resolve those problems, but in the mean time I'm willing to bet fewer people would be dying if they didn't have guns. (yes I know there are other ways of killing people but it's a lot harder to oppress people without guns. Are you going to hold an RPG to someone's head?) Its not difficult to oppress people without guns. All you have to do to oppress people is be meaner and more aggressive than them. Fear does the oppressing. It's a lot more difficult to oppress a population that has guns. Guns are the only weapon that puts the small and physically weak on a level playing field with the large and strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbedward Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Stricter how? Regulate gun shows, flag people on anti depressants, maybe some sort of personality test that could flag some sort of psychology analysis, stuff like that is plausible. Widespread counseling and therapy could help too if it's accessible to all and paid for. That's another discussion really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Fan Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 There are people still arguing to keep the gun show loophole. I mean that you just can't have a discussion with, you just walk away. No there aren't. And the "gun show loophole" is a myth debunked a hundred times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy Fan Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 that is true, however if you've got massive multi round clips not that big of a deal to let off 3 or 4 rounds before you hit someone right? This is the prime argument against these huge clips, it allows these assholes a lot of shots before they have to reclip. It is true that it also potentially nerfs the good guy too, it's always been a complicated issue. I can carry 25 "magazines" (not clips) that only hold 5 rounds with a backpack just as easy as I can carry 5 magazines that hold 25 rounds. You tube some videos of "tactical re-loads" (which I happen to think are silly/unnecessary) and watch how fast guys can drop & swap magazines and you'll understand how silly the "high capacity magazine" argument is. Also, politicians in their infinite wisdom have only banned cosmetic items (pistol grips, muzzle brakes/flash suppressors, bayonet lugs, collapsible stocks etc.) that do not impede or change the function/capability of a modern semi automatic rifle. I can have all of these cosmetic items on my bolt action .308 winchester hunting rifle with a 10rd mag and inflict far more damage than some schmoe with an "assault rifle". Mostly because i can cause a target to have a real bad day from 4-5 football fields away and be long gone before anyone understood what had happened. And I'm really not even that great of a shot. (Relative to guys who do this for a living) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Regulate gun shows, flag people on anti depressants, maybe some sort of personality test that could flag some sort of psychology analysis, stuff like that is plausible. Widespread counseling and therapy could help too if it's accessible to all and paid for. That's another discussion really. Good ideas but in order to flag those on antidepressants you have to violate hippa laws. You ready to open that can of worms letting the government have access to all your medical records? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 so it had nothing to do with full or semi auto? Nope. Just scary appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Regulate gun shows Edward *********************************** Stop it. The gun dealers are most certainly REGULATED. Learn and think before posting. We bought our ccw pistol at a gun show, a great dealer. All dealers MUST do the BACKGROUND CHECK. It does not matter if they are at a gun show. Is that a deliberate ...emotional knee jerk untruth... or you really didn't know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Look, none of this really matters. Gun ownership or gun bans is not the problem. Plenty of countries, such as the UK, Australia etc have gun bans and we're pretty much fine. There's no government oppression, everybody's basically fine. Plenty of countries, such as Switzerland and Canada have rampant gun ownership, and we don't see a mass shooting every other day like in the US. The problem is unique to the american people and american way of life. So what is that problem? That's the real question that needs answering. Is the US just less mentally stable than those other countries? Perhaps. Is the US in general less educated than Switzerland? My money's on yes. But, gun to my head (lol) I'd say that there are these few key factors: 1) Gun deaths caused by suicide - well, suicide is suicide, if there was no gun handy maybe people would think twice about it, but that's just looking at a symptom not the cause. Mental and emotional health seems very highly stigmatised in the US and is not treated the same as physical health. If you have stress or depression, the general feeling seems to be that you can just 'snap out of it' like shaking off a tweaked ankle or something. 2) Gang shootings - why are there gangs? Not letting the gangs have guns is again only treating the symptoms. Why do these gangs exist? It's basically because the people growing up in those areas see no opportunity for themselves within the 'mainstream' world, no job prospects, and basically no matter how hard they work at the low paying job, they'll be stuck in low paying jobs for years. So why bother? The gang offers protection from other gangs (what great recursive logic) and a chance at making a life for yourself, by any means necessary. 3) Nutjobs - like the fella that shot up the church because 'dem niggas gots to die' or whatever. Sure, he had some mental issues where the part of his brain that should be saying 'maybe don't go and kill a bunch of people' is missing. But also, why did he choose those people? He firmly believed that black people were an inferior race that were infecting the US. Why? On what grounds? Cyclical poverty propagating stereotypes? 4) Aggression - people not being able to resolve problems properly. How many times do we see shootouts over basically nothing - whether it's Taqueesha and Jamaaaaaal fighting over the last piece of chicken or two biker dudes fighting over whose mustache is better, or whatever you feel like. How many times have people been shot over things that have been genuinely life threatening, compared to 'things got heated and a bit out of hand and someone went for a gun' or whatever? I'm sure some will take this as an attack on the US for some reason, but honestly, the whole issue about gun control is moot while the causes of gun violence are not addressed. And simply saying 'well crazy people are crazy, not much we can do about it' isn't addressing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 , I don't find it offensive it sounds somewhat close to the truth. As for Switzerland and Canada the United States is a hell of a lot bigger. And when we speak of gang violence..... Let's just say that neither Switzerland nor Canada have 13% of their population who feels oppressed and is openly hostile to the rest of the country, who commit the lion's share of the violent crimes and gang violence per capita. (and just the mention of that fact will draw accusations of racism at which point the discussion is over) Aside from that and race notwithstanding I don't know how packed together the residents of Switzerland are but the population in Canada is pretty spread out. ( no clue why residence in Japan or India art absolutely berserk) I haven't looked at any numbers but I assume that most gun violence in the US happens in very highly populated areas. As far as the personal liberty to own guns? Well there are plenty of countries with varying degrees of liberty and they all seem to get along within themselves. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldBrownsFan Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Liberal polices in the 60's with the Great Society failure programs of Lyndon Johnson have helped to destroy families in this country and hardest hit have been the black community. Single mothers would get paid not to get married and having more children born out of wedlock was the way to get even more benefits. I remember speaking with a judge one time who said he went to many seminars dealing these kind of problems and saying he would like to see studies done on the breakdown of families in relation to causing many of societal problems which he said never got addressed in the seminars he went to. Train up a child in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it Prov. 22:6 - that is a bible truth that works well. Aside from being a nation that has pulled away from God I would list the breakdown of families as the second reason we have many of the problems besetting our country right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 It's not so often I'm in agreement with you OBF, but I agree that parenting has been failing for a couple of generations now. As for population density, the US is quite disproportionate, but overall has a lower population density to pretty much every developed country. In terms of cities, Switzerland has a population density of 513 people per square mile, while New York has a population density of about 400 people per square mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 If I'm not mistaken, speaking of parenting, intact families have been spiraling downward since the New Deal and took a second hit around the time of the Great Society. Reason being that it became a hindrance as to receiving welfare if the father was living in the home. That's still a concern. Again no idea how it is in Europe. Or Uganda for that matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 , I don't find it offensive it sounds somewhat close to the truth. As for Switzerland and Canada the United States is a hell of a lot bigger. And when we speak of gang violence..... Let's just say that neither Switzerland nor Canada have 13% of their population who feels oppressed and is openly hostile to the rest of the country, who commit the lion's share of the violent crimes and gang violence per capita. (and just the mention of that fact will draw accusations of racism at which point the discussion is over) Aside from that and race notwithstanding I don't know how packed together the residents of Switzerland are but the population in Canada is pretty spread out. ( no clue why residence in Japan or India art absolutely berserk) I haven't looked at any numbers but I assume that most gun violence in the US happens in very highly populated areas. As far as the personal liberty to own guns? Well there are plenty of countries with varying degrees of liberty and they all seem to get along within themselves. WSS The reason Japanese and India aren't berserk is there is no forced multi-culturism. You're going to see a big violent crime upswing in Europe over the next few years. Take it to the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 The reason Japanese and India aren't berserk is there is no forced multi-culturism. You're going to see a big violent crime upswing in Europe over the next few years. Take it to the bank. I might have to agree with Cysko here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clevfan4life Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 If I'm not mistaken, speaking of parenting, intact families have been spiraling downward since the New Deal and took a second hit around the time of the Great Society. Reason being that it became a hindrance as to receiving welfare if the father was living in the home. That's still a concern. Again no idea how it is in Europe. Or Uganda for that matter... Capitalism though did more to fracture the family unit than any other single force in this country. If people in Europe worked 45 hours, we just had to work 60. It's the constant capitalist imperative that made us worker ants first, parent "maybe" second...if the kids were lucky. When the upper percent started squeezing the fuck out of the middle class so that both parents HAD to work, what do you expect will happen? There's a reason why we're called the Prozac nation. No other country on earth takes the anti D's that we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 That's pretty ridiculous, cleave, and you're smart enough to know it. It's not the middle class or the working class that's committing the crime or the gun violence or joining the gangs. It's the single young parents with multiple children growing up without a father figure and roaming the streets. I'd say criminals and guns and gang violence are relatively scarce in Bay Village, Avon Lake and Fairlawn heights. At least it sure as hell isn't because the parents are working too many hours... WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 The reason Japanese and India aren't berserk is there is no forced multi-culturism. You're going to see a big violent crime upswing in Europe over the next few years. Take it to the bank. There's certainly some animosity towards other cultures, mainly from the 'host' culture, and mainly towards those that 'come over here and steal our jobs/claim welfare' - nobody's really complaining about the number of chinese people, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Nor does anybody really complain about the Chinese here either. They seem to be rather industrious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Multiculturalism isn't a new thing though, it isn't unique to the 21st century. Isn't it about time we learned to actually just get along? Accept that some people are different and that's ok? I mean, not accepting things that contradict human rights, like forced arranged marriage, FGM etc that might come in from some places, but if people want to dress differently or speak differently, so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Multiculturalism isn't a new thing though, it isn't unique to the 21st century. Isn't it about time we learned to actually just get along? Accept that some people are different and that's ok? I mean, not accepting things that contradict human rights, like forced arranged marriage, FGM etc that might come in from some places, but if people want to dress differently or speak differently, so what? Changing human nature isn't as easy as wishing and hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cysko Kid Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Give me five people and eventually four of them will find a reason to hate the fifth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Changing human nature isn't as easy as wishing and hoping. No, it starts with education, things aren't nearly as scary when you understand them. But try to get learning about muslims on to any school's syllabus in the US, I wonder what'll happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Nor does anybody really complain about the Chinese here either. They seem to be rather industrious.Or Indians. Are you telling us, Chris, but there's no difference between the crime rate in the Muslim communities and the rest of England? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 Or Indians. Are you telling us, Chris, but there's no difference between the crime rate in the Muslim communities and the rest of England? WSS I'm not sure such statistics exist to be honest. I'm expecting that the crime rate is higher. Why do you suppose that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I'm not sure such statistics exist to be honest. I'm expecting that the crime rate is higher. Why do you suppose that is? Because immigrants from poor war-torn shitholes are often more prone to a tougher way of life? Perhaps if you are used to the KGB or Sharia law the bobbies aren't that frightening? But mostly because some cultures take more pride in hard work and education. Many of the Asians probably fit that bill. I don't think you are really missing my point that we have a large number of African Americans whose culture is suspect at best. And who commit the lion's share of the gun violence. And in case you're going to ask me if I think it's because they are poor I would ask you why are they poor and why don't all poor subgroups commit as much crime? And more importantly how do we fix that? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted October 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 This is a terrific discussion. I don't doubt it's part multi-cultural at least in small ways, at certain times, but the breakdown of the family structure, the entitlement subculture that hates not getting more than they already get... Fast paced society overall... I wonder how so many individuals end up so often on anti-depressant medications. So many become alienated from any support system, and act out in violence - against people that are completely innocent of anything. But time and time again - it seems that these anti-depressants are a bad thing. It's a common thread in the list of those who act out in violent rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 This is a terrific discussion. I don't doubt it's part multi-cultural at least in small ways, at certain times, but the breakdown of the family structure, the entitlement subculture that hates not getting more than they already get... Fast paced society overall... I wonder how so many individuals end up so often on anti-depressant medications. So many become alienated from any support system, and act out in violence - against people that are completely innocent of anything. But time and time again - it seems that these anti-depressants are a bad thing. It's a common thread in the list of those who act out in violent rage. And there's very much a culture in the US of just dolling out pills like they're sweets rather than clinically treating depression, which people then might get hooked on, and then be cut off, it's just a can of worms. Pills should always be the last resort. Not unlike how the over-prescription of antibiotics has caused a spike in antibiotic-resistant diseases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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