DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHsb17MRAj8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 17, 2013 Report Share Posted December 17, 2013 Disclaimer - I'm British so if you don't want to hear a non-american's view, just skip now Anyway, I find myself torn on the whole conservatism/liberal thing. Being a middle class white guy with an above average salary, I quite like a lot of the conservative policies. They suit me and I'd be better off. But then I find myself wanting to spread the wealth, from rich to poor, which broadly amounts to communism, which is apparently liberalism. I find myself thinking things like - healthcare should be an unalienable right. Disease and injury are fairly indiscriminate, so why should treatment be discriminate on your ability to earn money? Liberal. On the other hand, who pays for it? Conservative. - a lower natural intelligence shouldn't, in itself, lower your standard of living. It does, of course, a doctor/businessman/senator etc will earn more money than a shelf stacker. Is that *right*? Shouldn't we, instead, reward work ethic over intelligence? Marxist(? I'm sure someone can correct me) views. On the other hand, being a doctor is a highly skilled job that requires years of training - why shouldn't they get some perks over other people doing things that trained monkeys could do? - there are some professions that we literally couldn't live without. Farmers, for example, if there were none, there'd be no food. Yet it's not a glamorous job, doesn't generally pay particularly well. Shouldn't those people be paid more? Communist? On the other hand, that would put the price of my food up, which is not something I'd like, of course. Capitalist. - Food - we all need food, and within some tolerance level, we all need a roughly equal amount of food to other people with our physique. Grown man, 2500 calories per day or whatever. Why isn't there an allotted amount of food for everyone, so that nobody starves and nobody gets particularly obese. Communist. But, I earn more money than most, I want to spend it on nice food for myself and my friends/family. Capitalist. I highly doubt that any one party, conservative, liberal, unionist, marxist, capitalist, communist, that would wholly appeal to me, so I struggle to identify with one of the mainstream parties and even harder to vote. Most swing voters (who are the ones that really count in determining elections) are swayed by soundbites like the one above anyway - "Conservatives care about your rights as a person" or whatever it was, the implication being that other parties don't, which is what, slander? - so it's kinda irrelevant on which side of things I come down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Shouldn't we, instead, reward work ethic over intelligence? Marxist(? I'm sure someone can correct me) views. The Marxist ideal would be to reward everyone equally, the line of thinking for that being that everyone has their own place in the world. Not everyone can be a scientist or a coal miner. This proved to be a major weakness in Communist countries, as it killed the main incentive to go above and beyond. You'd earn the same for growing 100 kilos of wheat as 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Good dissertation, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schopenhauer Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 The Marxist ideal would be to reward everyone equally, the line of thinking for that being that everyone has their own place in the world. Not everyone can be a scientist or a coal miner. This proved to be a major weakness in Communist countries, as it killed the main incentive to go above and beyond. You'd earn the same for growing 100 kilos of wheat as 1000. Marx had a few other challenges as well. For one, he really thought that he had identified a scientific basis for the functioning of history. That is, he thought that history could be predicted in much the same way that the results of a scientific experiment could be predicted, like water boiling at a certain temperature. He thought his method produced the inevitable truth... That accounts for the dizzying success of his ideas. Less than 70 years after his death MILLIONS of people (China, Russia, etc.) were following his lead. That never happened before or since. Marx had the fastest and largest impact of any philosopher (if you can call him that) in history. National governments adopted his beliefs around the world. Crazy! The main reason is that he said it was scientific, that if you thought his way you were "on the side of history". It must have been appetizing because so many signed on, yet obviously he was completely wrong; it wasn't scientific or inevitable at all. As for the video starting this thread, couldn't finish it, sorry. The Financial Crisis of 2007 occurred under Bush, although Obama and Clinton both signed off on the solution. My question: Where did the money go? It didn't evaporate. Here's a hint, look into the number of yacht sales under Bush, they grew exponentially. There are other considerations as well. The Congress's refusal to pass a job's bill or to reinvest in infrastructure to name two. Funny how the record Stock Market is never mentioned when O is called a communist...he's certainly business friendly in that regard. Here's a little more I remember about it. I remember a small but informed number of analysts who successfully predicted that Bush would wreck the economy so that people would blame the next regime. I'm talking years before it happened. Then, well, it happened right in front of me. Damn! I thought..they were right! Review the chart in the video and you see how it breaks immediately on the election year. Funny that. Also funny how most people think it came out of nowhere. We call that a shit bomb where I come from.... So, while I am not a big fan of Obama, I am less a fan of tanking our economy to score political points, all the while enriching your friends in the process. What about Bush's fiscal responsibility? He gets a pass, he's part of a political dynasty after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Well, Bush is long gone, and Obama made all those promises........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schopenhauer Posted December 18, 2013 Report Share Posted December 18, 2013 Thanks for sharing your perspective. Fascinating how you let them off the hook for trashing the world economy on purpose. I'm sure you didn't get paid off, so what's your angle? Serious question... BTW, let's take a closer look at some promises.... DEFICIT RHETORIC "As President, Governor Bush will pay the debt down to a historically low level." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] DEFICIT REALITY As of July 30, the national debt stood at $7,316,567,571,232.89, a record high. This year’s budget will also create a record deficit: $445 billion, according to the White House. [source: Treasury Department, 8/3/04, Reuters, 7/31/04] SOCIAL SECURITY RHETORIC "The Social Security surplus must be locked away only for Social Security." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Social Security website] SOCIAL SECURITY REALITY During 2002, the first fiscal year for which Bush was responsible, he spent $159 billion of the Social Security Trust Fund surplus.[source: CBO Historical Budget Data, ] HEALTH CARE RHETORIC "George W. Bush will establish the ‘Healthy Communities Innovation Fund’ to provide $500 million in grants over five years to fund innovative projects addressing targeted health risks, such as childhood diabetes." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] HEALTH CARE REALITY Bush never established this fund. [source: The Philadelphia Inquirer, 1/20/04] ENVIRONMENTAL RHETORIC George W. Bush "will also ensure that the federal government, which is the country’s largest polluter, complies with all environmental laws." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] ENVIRONMENTAL REALITY For the past three years, the Department of Defense has requested that Congress exempt it from environmental laws and regulations like the Clean Air Act of 1970. The exemptions were requested despite the fact that the Environmental Protection Agency has thus far declined to apply the policies to the military training facilities in question. [source: Government Executive Magazine, 4/6/04] HIGHER ED RHETORIC George W. Bush will "fully fund the Pell grant program for first-year students by increasing the maximum grant amount by more than 50 percent, to $5,100." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Education website] HIGHER ED REALITY President Bush has frozen the maximum Pell Grant at $4,050 in his FY 2005 education budget. This is the third year in a row that Bush has frozen or cut the maximum Pell Grant. [source: House Committee on Education and the Work Force 2/2/04] WELFARE RHETORIC "To encourage states to help families in crisis, Governor Bush will provide states an additional $1 billion over five years for preventative services to keep children in, or return them to, their homes whenever safely possible." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Child Welfare website] WELFARE REALITY Bush has proposed allowing states to use the federal funds currently earmarked for foster care room-and-board payments to be used for preventative services. In exchange, states must accept a spending cap on the amount of foster care funding they receive. [source: Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/24/04] TAX RHETORIC "y far the vast majority of my tax cuts go to the bottom end of the spectrum." [source: George W. Bush, 2/15/00] "Governor Bush’s income tax cuts will benefit all Americans, but they are especially focused on low and moderate income families." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Taxes website] TAX REALITY The top 20 percent of earners received 69.8 percent of President Bush’s tax cuts. [source: CBPP, 4/23/04, p. 17] Millionaires received an average tax cut of $123,000. Those in the bottom quintile of earners received an average tax cuts of $27. Those in the second to bottom quintile received an average cut of $317. [source: CBPP, 4/23/04, p. 17] ******* Seen enough yet? I could literally go on for hours, this is all first-term stuff...some of it isn't super serious, but politicians break all kinds of promises, serious and otherwise. You know that, now at least. But that's OK, cuz Bush is "long gone." You do understand that a president's policies (and their impact) can easily outlast his tenure, right? Again, that was the whole point of tanking the economy just in time to blame the new guy. No wonder you fell for it, you can't grasp it when someone spells it out after the fact...."cuz Obama promised"...geesh, sorry you are disillusioned young jedi. Oh, and I LOVE these one liners that are posted in these forums like some kind of trump card...seems like taking a shortcut to thinking to me. Perhaps you should focus on the widening gap between rich and poor and the dissolution of the middle class that is presently tearing apart this country but...nah...thinking is hard. "Obama lied" is much easier. Keep smiling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Oh, and I LOVE these one liners that are posted in these forums like some kind of trump card...seems like taking a shortcut to thinking to me. Yeah, that's American culture in general. Everything these days gets reduced to soundbites and mini-articles. That's why text language has become so rampant: i.e., CTFU, Biebz is totes cute. George Orwell talked the the possible ramifications of this in depth in 1984. He argued that the complexity of "Oldspeak" allowed for greater mental freedom, as opposed to the succinct "Newspeak". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted December 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Thanks for sharing your perspective. Fascinating how you let them off the hook for trashing the world economy on purpose. I'm sure you didn't get paid off, so what's your angle? Serious question... BTW, let's take a closer look at some promises.... DEFICIT RHETORIC "As President, Governor Bush will pay the debt down to a historically low level." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] DEFICIT REALITY As of July 30, the national debt stood at $7,316,567,571,232.89, a record high. This year’s budget will also create a record deficit: $445 billion, according to the White House. [source: Treasury Department, 8/3/04, Reuters, 7/31/04] SOCIAL SECURITY RHETORIC "The Social Security surplus must be locked away only for Social Security." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Social Security website] SOCIAL SECURITY REALITY During 2002, the first fiscal year for which Bush was responsible, he spent $159 billion of the Social Security Trust Fund surplus. [source: CBO Historical Budget Data, ] HEALTH CARE RHETORIC "George W. Bush will establish the ‘Healthy Communities Innovation Fund’ to provide $500 million in grants over five years to fund innovative projects addressing targeted health risks, such as childhood diabetes." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] HEALTH CARE REALITY Bush never established this fund. [source: The Philadelphia Inquirer, 1/20/04] ENVIRONMENTAL RHETORIC George W. Bush "will also ensure that the federal government, which is the country’s largest polluter, complies with all environmental laws." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 website] ENVIRONMENTAL REALITY For the past three years, the Department of Defense has requested that Congress exempt it from environmental laws and regulations like the Clean Air Act of 1970. The exemptions were requested despite the fact that the Environmental Protection Agency has thus far declined to apply the policies to the military training facilities in question. [source: Government Executive Magazine, 4/6/04] HIGHER ED RHETORIC George W. Bush will "fully fund the Pell grant program for first-year students by increasing the maximum grant amount by more than 50 percent, to $5,100." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Education website] HIGHER ED REALITY President Bush has frozen the maximum Pell Grant at $4,050 in his FY 2005 education budget. This is the third year in a row that Bush has frozen or cut the maximum Pell Grant. [source: House Committee on Education and the Work Force 2/2/04] WELFARE RHETORIC "To encourage states to help families in crisis, Governor Bush will provide states an additional $1 billion over five years for preventative services to keep children in, or return them to, their homes whenever safely possible." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Child Welfare website] WELFARE REALITY Bush has proposed allowing states to use the federal funds currently earmarked for foster care room-and-board payments to be used for preventative services. In exchange, states must accept a spending cap on the amount of foster care funding they receive. [source: Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/24/04] TAX RHETORIC "y far the vast majority of my tax cuts go to the bottom end of the spectrum." [source: George W. Bush, 2/15/00] "Governor Bush’s income tax cuts will benefit all Americans, but they are especially focused on low and moderate income families." [source: Bush-Cheney 2000 – Taxes website] TAX REALITY The top 20 percent of earners received 69.8 percent of President Bush’s tax cuts. [source: CBPP, 4/23/04, p. 17] Millionaires received an average tax cut of $123,000. Those in the bottom quintile of earners received an average tax cuts of $27. Those in the second to bottom quintile received an average cut of $317. [source: CBPP, 4/23/04, p. 17] ******* Seen enough yet? I could literally go on for hours, this is all first-term stuff...some of it isn't super serious, but politicians break all kinds of promises, serious and otherwise. You know that, now at least. But that's OK, cuz Bush is "long gone." You do understand that a president's policies (and their impact) can easily outlast his tenure, right? Again, that was the whole point of tanking the economy just in time to blame the new guy. No wonder you fell for it, you can't grasp it when someone spells it out after the fact...."cuz Obama promised"...geesh, sorry you are disillusioned young jedi. Oh, and I LOVE these one liners that are posted in these forums like some kind of trump card...seems like taking a shortcut to thinking to me. Perhaps you should focus on the widening gap between rich and poor and the dissolution of the middle class that is presently tearing apart this country but...nah...thinking is hard. "Obama lied" is much easier. Keep smiling! Bottom line is liberals continually blame Bush for everything, even to this day, 5 years after he left office. The facts are in the film, that Obama promised it all, and gave back nothing but lies. But your counterpoint is 'Bush did this, Bush did that'. It's a never ending cycle. Hardly a 'young jedi', just not a lover of the worst President in history, Obama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Bottom line is liberals continually blame Bush for everything, even to this day, 5 years after he left office. The facts are in the film, that Obama promised it all, and gave back nothing but lies. But your counterpoint is 'Bush did this, Bush did that'. It's a never ending cycle. Hardly a 'young jedi', just not a lover of the worst President in history, Obama. Because everything Bush did can be fixed in 5 years? I suppose, also, that 5 years in to the next rep. president's stay that nobody will be blaming Obama for anything? Come on, there are obviously some things that can be fixed quicker, but other problems take a lot longer to fix, like the economy. Last recession as big as this in america was in 1929 - it ultimately led to world war, a decade later (even later for you guys). Not trying to stick up for Obama, because clearly he hasn't been perfect and did promise those things and failed to deliver - but does that make him Satan? No, it makes him a god damn politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I don't understand this line of thinking, that Obamao is trying to fix anything that Bush and everybody else did. Obamao has skyrocketed the already way too high fed deficit spending. How the heck does that mean that Obamao gets a pass because he can't fix Bush's fed deficit? Bush never had friends who wanted a violent marxist revolution. Obamao did. Bush was never, ever so arrogant and corrupt to foster this debacle on our country: ObaMaocare. Worse and worse. http://news.yahoo.com/obamacare-shotgun-wedding-marry-lose-091500078.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I don't think anyone can say that either guy has done a bang up job. Either side of the aisle will see the sugar coating on the turd if their guy's image is one that coincides with their personal politics. Examples: War protesters went bananas while Bush was in office over being in Afghanistan, Iraq, and over Gitmo. Wars continue under Obama. Gitmo stays open. Crickets all around. Bush uses drones and the right hi-fives him for eliminating people who hate us for our freedom. Obama does the exact same thing and now the right is losing their marbles over drone usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogicIsForSquares Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 For the record, I think they are both dipshits. The only difference I see is that Bush likely didn't dig too deep into the motives of everyone around him when they gave him advice. Obama comes off like the guy who thinks he knows everything but ends up being the worst kind of dumb. Like the supervisor at your job who everyone likes but they know deep down that he shouldn't be running a lemonade stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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