Nelson Mandela

[Westside Steve]

Of course a counter point of view is the simple fact that each and every one of us comes from a race who at some point has had their land taken away by another group. Take, for instance, the Irish Americans.

I would imagine, just from my physical makeup, that I am the descendants of vikings, just one of the civilizations that conquered the island. Go throughout history and just about anywhere you found great expanses of land inhabited by hunters gatherers or other primitive tribes and you will see that more civilized tribes took over. It is the way of the world, when you think about it. I think that it was our 19th century liberalism that screwed things up for the natives in the first place. Not that I'd have supported slaughtering them all but the reservation system has completely crippled a nearly entire race of human beings. Sure the Vikings killed some people but mostly assimilated themselves and the natives it Ireland eventually. I can't think of another situation in which the natives were placed in what is primarily a Zoo. Hey at least you can make moonshine and run casinos. Sound good? Or don't you think they should just be part of society and talk about their ancestry like we do? Schopenhauer you seem like a very intelligent person maybe you have examples of which I'm not aware.

 

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Of course he is intelligent. He is German.

[koalabazooka]

Why do Americans call Deutschelanders "Germans"?

[Schopenhauer]

Schopenhauer you seem like a very intelligent person maybe you have examples of which I'm not aware.

 

WSS

 

Not sure I am agreeing with you here. Very intelligent people don't need to flaunt it or belittle other's viewpoints. I think I've been guilty of both interacting with calfox. I regret that and apologize to calfox...it wasn't exactly fair..had a bad mood going and spread it around unnecessarily. Calfox is a great Browns fan and that is what matters most to me in this forum, not being right about everything. My bad.

 

Very intelligent people in my book seek the middle ground instinctively and reliably. If they know they are right they are content with that. Ever met a Sikh? Most would call them towel heads but they have been fighting the Taliban-types for about 1000 years in India. These are the guys that wear the big turbans, fascinating group really, and they are not the terrorists! Anyway, if you go to a Sikh temple they will house and feed for as long as you need...for free. Think about that one. Next, they are forbidden from evangelizing or proselytizing. That is, they can't promote their religion, they have to convince folks they are on the right path BY EXAMPLE. Another mind blower...

 

To your point about the forces of history, I have done good bit of geneaology work and have found over 2000 direct ancestors, some of whom perpetrated some seriously barbarous acts on others (the list goes back to Roman times). Ultimately it seems to be a personal choice; do you recognize that your ancestors acted on your behalf or do you recognize that their actions are independent from your reality and choices. It's a tough call. I was raised by my great-grandmother, who was born in the 19th century, so I tend to reach back that far and accept it as part of who I am. Not everyone does that and it is their choice.

 

Now I am aware of entire towns (in Europe) in the distant past that wanted to follow the teachings of Christ and base their towns on that. They were brutally slaughtered because of the nationalism of the countries that were developing around them. Does make you wonder what might have been...

 

Good chat.

[Schopenhauer]

Why do Americans call Deutschelanders "Germans"?

 

Good question.

 

Goes back to Roman times. Magna Germania was the name chosen to refer to the area where the "german" tribes lived. From what I understand it was revived during the late middle ages (about 1350) to refer to the German-speaking inhabitants of the Holy Roman Empire. Yep, the Roman Empire had come back around by then. Not a lot of people realize that Napoleon crowned himself Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, it was still there in the early 1800s.

 

Now, the one that gets me is "Dutch." It means "Deutsch" or "German" but they ain't German (despite all the similarities). Come on Europe, get it straight...

[Westside Steve]

First paragraph: I think I may not have been clear or you might not have understood my reason for asking that question. I think you are a very bright guy and I had to look up your examples including the Moro Massacre. When I said that throughout history hunters gatherers primitive societies are regularly overtaken buy more advanced civilizations I asked you, in sincerity, if you knew of any situations around the world in which the indigenous peoples are artificially preserved as we have tried to do, supposedly, on the Indian reservations. I just don't know of any successful examples. the Vikings, for example, did not set up reservations for the indigenous Irish but somehow melded with them.

 

As for the Sikhs I was having a discussion over a few beers with some contractors I'd met at my gig at Put in Bay. These guys told me they'd been overseas working for almost a year primarily with Sikhs. They all agreed that there have been no other people they've ever worked with more honest, straightforward and trustworthy.

 

But I don't think your example of the Christian village is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm talking about vast areas of land inhabited by natives, aboriginals, etcetera being displaced by other more intrepid explorers. The Christian village massacre I liken more to nationalism or xenophobia. A little bit like President Harrison, as I recall, and the persecution of the Mormons.

 

WSS

[Schopenhauer]

I asked you, in sincerity, if you knew of any situations around the world in which the indigenous peoples are artificially preserved as we have tried to do, supposedly, on the Indian reservations. I just don't know of any successful examples. the Vikings, for example, did not set up reservations for the indigenous Irish but somehow melded with them.

 

WSS

 

Oh, I get you. Appreciate the clarification.

 

You mentioned the aboriginals yourself. Another example, though a little different. I think it is going to be difficult to tell for a number of reasons.

 

Mainly, the Native American situation in the soon-to-be US was different. The Vikings you mention and other groups that you allude to didn't administrate treaties the same way so there isn't a great deal of hard evidence. In "US" history we have the evidence for the "why" of it.

 

The name "reservation" comes from the belief that the Native tribes were sovereign nations at the time the U.S. Constitution was ratified. In the early peace treaties, where Native tribes gave up large parcels of land under duress to the US, the tribes, as sovereigns, "reserved" some land to themselves, and those portions of land became known as reservations.

 

I think that is why our situation is unique. Like I said in previous posts, it all comes down to that claim to the land. It really bothers some people that we cannot be the "legitimate" owners of the land while they still exist.

 

Beyond that, we could likely find similar situations across Latin America, in the Amazon, etc. Again, its tough becuase the Natives are kept at the margin. Again, good chat, gotta run,

[DieHardBrownsFan]

The Ainu in Japan is another situation i'm familiar with having lived there for over 8 years.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

[VaporTrail]

Bogus sign language interpreter at Mandela memorial was in group that burned men to death

Published December 16, 2013

Associated Press

• 

  Dec. 10, 2013: President Barack Obama waves standing next to the sign language interpreter after making his speech at the memorial service for former South African president Nelson Mandela at the FNB Stadium in Soweto near Johannesburg. South Africa's deaf federation said on Wednesday that the interpreter on stage for Mandela memorial was a 'fake.' (AP)

JOHANNESBURG – The bogus sign language interpreter at last week's Nelson Mandela memorial service was among a group of people who accosted two men found with a stolen television and burned them to death by setting fire to tires placed around their necks, one of the interpreter's cousins and three of his friends told The Associated Press Monday.

But Thamsanqa Jantjie never went to trial for the 2003 killings when other suspects did in 2006 because authorities determined he was not mentally fit to stand trial, said the four. They insisted on speaking anonymously because of the sensitivity of the fake signing fiasco, which has deeply embarrassed South Africa's government and prompted a high-level investigation into how it happened.

Their account of the killings matched a description of the crime and the outcome for Jantjie that he himself described in an interview published on Sunday by the Sunday Times newspaper of Johannesburg.

"It was a community thing, what you call mob justice, and I was also there," Jantjie told the newspaper.

Jantjie was not at his house Monday, and the cousin told AP Jantjie had been picked up by someone in a car Sunday and had not returned. His cellphone rang through to an automatic message saying Jantjie was not reachable.

Instead of standing trial, Jantjie was institutionalized for a period of longer than a year, the four said, and then returned to live in his poor township neighborhood on the outskirts of Soweto. At some point after that, they said, he started getting jobs doing sign language interpretation at events for the governing African National Congress Party.

Jantjie told the AP last week he has schizophrenia and hallucinated, seeing angels while gesturing incoherently just 3 feet away from President Barack Obama and other world leaders during the Tuesday ceremony at a Soweto stadium. Signing experts said his arm and hand movements were mere gibberish.

In the interview last Thursday, Jantjie said he had been violent in the past "a lot" but declined to provide more details and blamed his violence on his schizophrenia, for which he said he was institutionalized for 19 months in a period that included time during 2006. The cousin and the three friends said the "necklacing" killing of the suspected thieves occurred within a few hundred meters (yards) from Jantjie's tidy concrete home near ramshackle dwellings.

The four spoke to the AP on Monday in Jantjie's neighborhood, and one of the friends described himself as Jantjie's best friend.

Necklacing was a method of killing that was fairly common during the struggle against apartheid by blacks on blacks suspected of aiding the white government or belonging to opposing factions. The method was also used in tribal disputes in the 1980s and 1990s. While people who encounter suspect thieves in South Africa have been known to beat or kill them to mete out punishment, necklacing them has been rare.

An investigation is under way by South African officials to determine who hired Jantjie as the onstage interpreter at the Mandela memorial service and if and how he received security clearance. The officials have not said how long their investigation will take place, and reaching them for updates was difficult Monday, a public holiday in South Africa.

Four government departments involved in organizing the historic memorial service have distanced themselves from the hiring of Jantjie, telling the AP they had no contact with him. A fifth government agency, the Department of Public Works, declined to comment and referred all inquiries about Jantjie to the office of South Africa's top government spokeswoman, who has only said a "comprehensive report" will eventually be released.

Jantjie told the AP he was hired for the event by an interpretation company that has used him on a freelance basis for years. The address that Jantjie provided for the company was occupied by a different company that is not involved in interpreting for the deaf.

The owner of the company was identified by the Sunday Times as Bantubahle Xozwa, who heads a religious and traditional affairs unit of the ANC.

Xozwa told the newspaper that Jantjie was an administrator in his company, South African Interpreters but "is not an interpreter" because he was "was disqualified years ago on the basis of his health."

"He was interpreting at the memorial service in his personal capacity," Xozwa said. The ANC has said it had no role in hiring Jantjie for the memorial service, but has acknowledged using him at party events in the past.

Two ANC spokesmen and a spokeswoman did not answer their cellphones on Monday, a public holiday, when AP tried to reach them for comment. A number listed for Xozwa in Johannesburg rang unanswered.

The Deaf Federation of South Africa has said it filed a complaint with the ANC about bogus signing by Jantjie at a previous event where South African President Jacob Zuma was present.

"We will follow up the reported correspondence that has supposedly been sent to us in this regard and where necessary act on it," the ANC said in a statement last week.

The AP was unable to verify the existence of the school where Jantjie said he studied signing for a year. An online search for the school, which Jantjie said was called Komani and located in Eastern Cape Province, turned up nothing. Advocates for the deaf said they have never heard of the school and said there are no known sign language institutes in the province.

The Star newspaper of Johannesburg reported Friday that Jantjie said he studied sign language interpretation in Britain at the "University of Tecturers." A British charity that awards qualifications for deaf and deaf-blind communications techniques said it had never heard of the university.

 

 

hahaha, this has got to be one of the ballsiest, least harmful pranks I've ever seen. I mean, why would anyone go up there and then just start waving their hands around like they know what's going on. Hilarious.

 

[koalabazooka]

 

Not sure I am agreeing with you here. Very intelligent people don't need to flaunt it or belittle other's viewpoints. I think I've been guilty of both interacting with calfox. I regret that and apologize to calfox...it wasn't exactly fair..had a bad mood going and spread it around unnecessarily. Calfox is a great Browns fan and that is what matters most to me in this forum, not being right about everything. My bad.

 

Wow. You are a saint.