calfoxwc Posted November 2, 2013 Report Share Posted November 2, 2013 So, in the latest news, the Obamao regime "outed" Israel to the media, after a bunch of Soviet missiles were headed to Hezbollah. It was a secret. Of course, the last "outing" was done by the Obamao regime, too. Shortly after this marxist was elected. some of us noted our concern that he said that if push came to shove, he'd side with the Muslims. Well, now he has proven that the American people should have listened. This is the second time a high level Obamao regime official has leaked sensitive secrets of Israel. NOTE: ObaMao's very, very close, #1 "advisor" in our WH is... Valerie Jarrett. A Sunni Muslim. We voiced our concern that Obamao's favoritism toward Islam (search on "Obamao - most beatiful sound"... would spell threats and cold shoulders and deceitful behavior towards Israel.. so, now it is happening. How much more can the Obamao regime do, to show anti-Semitism? Stay tuned. Obamao has "more leeway" this second and last 4 years..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairHooker11 Posted November 2, 2013 Report Share Posted November 2, 2013 yes indeed - Jarrett is calling the shots on ALOT of policy decisions. I believe she even held Obama back on the call to kill Bin Laden and only after actions by Panetta and Clinton, did the decision ultimately get made. I dont know why Jarretts influence like this is lost on people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Israel sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Being critical of Israel's government and their policies is not anti-Semitism. They need to be held to the same standards that the rest of the world is held, yet routinely are given passes for bad behavior by the US, behavior that routinely puts us in very difficult positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 They are also routinely raided by Palestinian bombers, Hezbollah rockets, etc. Surrounded by hostile countries, can you blame them? Plus with the murder of millions of jews in WW2, it gives them a sense of strike first, ask questions later which is completely understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Yes I can blame them. They are responsible for a nation-sized refugee camp, the deaths of far more civilians than Hezbollah and Palestinians combined, bombing sovereign nations that are not at war with them, the attack on the USS Liberty, and will soon be implicated in the assassination of Yasser Arafat, and continue to build settlements on occupied land while claiming to want a two-state peace agreement. Being the victims of the worlds greatest tragedy does not entitle them to behave in any way they see fit. They ought to be using that position as a motivation to behave as justly as possible and not be treating Palestinians in some of the same ways that they were treated. The surrounded by hostiles argument doesn't hold up. They have a peace accord with Egypt, and the rest of their neighbors are in disarray. They've pissed off their strongest regional ally in Turkey by attacking a humanitarian aid flotilla, but since they are the only nation in the ME that has nukes, the perceived threat to them is far more than the actual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Egypt is a huge cluster fuck. Syria also. I'm on Israel's side any day of the week over the Arabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 In your opinion, Osiris, how exactly did Israel obtain the lands in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Also I recall you referring to these people as your people. Do you mean that you are Palestinian or Egyptian? Also because there are actually no Palestinians except for a term used by the Romans to insult the captured Israelites, and that area had quite a large expanse why then shouldn't Jordan be considered Palestinian territory? WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 In your opinion, Osiris, how exactly did Israel obtain the lands in the West Bank and Gaza Strip? Also I recall you referring to these people as your people. Do you mean that you are Palestinian or Egyptian? Also because there are actually no Palestinians except for a term used by the Romans to insult the captured Israelites, and that area had quite a large expanse why then shouldn't Jordan be considered Palestinian territory? WSS I never referred to Palestinians as my people, I referred to Egyptians as my people, because that is the country in which I was born before my family immigrated to the USA. As I've said many times before, let's make political discussions about ideas and not the forum posters, though. Also, you're question about Israel is a bit misleading, as it suggests these territories are owned by Israel. Israel itself claims it no longer occupies Gaza due to the 2005 disengagement, despite the fact they continue to build settlements there. They do this so as to avoid the international requirements set forth by the Geneva Convention. The term I used is nation-sized refugee camp, though a better term would've been nation-sized prison. Israel controls both the airspace and coastlines and uses that control to maintain an economic stranglehold on these territories. I also dispute the claim that there are actually no Palestinians, as it is a tactic used to strip a people of their basic right to define themselves.They are the people who live in the region that is now Israel, and they have their own culture, dialect, and customs that are distinct from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. It is exactly the same thing as claiming Native Americans don't have a right to define themselves. Both peoples lived in these lands before another group of people forced them out to build their nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Why does this country, which is trillions in the red, continue to subsidize the Israeli Empire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted November 9, 2013 Report Share Posted November 9, 2013 Why do we give billions to Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc? Oh yes, and Egypt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 10, 2013 Report Share Posted November 10, 2013 I never referred to Palestinians as my people, I referred to Egyptians as my people, because that is the country in which I was born before my family immigrated to the USA. As I've said many times before, let's make political discussions about ideas and not the forum posters, though. . I don't think I have done anything of the sort. I'm disappointed that you took it that way. I merely asked for my own education after you brought it up. I don't think you've heard me utter any disparaging remarks about Egyptians Palestinians or, in fact any Middle Easterners in general. Still a forum posters background will certainly tend to sway his or her opinion on a lot of matters. Rightfully so. I will address a couple other points here when I have a bit more time but I wanted to set you straight on this one issue. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 I don't think I have done anything of the sort. I'm disappointed that you took it that way. I merely asked for my own education after you brought it up. I don't think you've heard me utter any disparaging remarks about Egyptians Palestinians or, in fact any Middle Easterners in general. Still a forum posters background will certainly tend to sway his or her opinion on a lot of matters. WSS Nor was I implying that you have any disparaging attitudes towards MIddle Easterners. On the contrary, though we probably disagree on a lot, I respect the way you carry yourself on these forums. I just prefer to debate ideas on their merits, without the influence of peoples backgrounds. That's why i don't ask anyone about their background, because it's irrelevant to me. I don't want anyone to dismiss my arguments by saying "oh he is just biased because he is xyz" and I don't want to do that to anyone either. So to reiterate, I didn't take it the way you think I did. I just like to discuss ideas as if they exist in a vacuum. That's the scientist in me. Hope that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Nor was I implying that you have any disparaging attitudes towards MIddle Easterners. On the contrary, though we probably disagree on a lot, I respect the way you carry yourself on these forums. I just prefer to debate ideas on their merits, without the influence of peoples backgrounds. That's why i don't ask anyone about their background, because it's irrelevant to me. I don't want anyone to dismiss my arguments by saying "oh he is just biased because he is xyz" and I don't want to do that to anyone either. So to reiterate, I didn't take it the way you think I did. I just like to discuss ideas as if they exist in a vacuum. That's the scientist in me. Hope that makes sense. Fair enough.Sorry I misunderstood. But still I think it's awfully hard to avoid our attitudes based on our backgrounds. For instance as Americans we will naturally get pissed off when people from other cultures criticize and vice versa. But you are correct. Often times if I look at a situation I try to ask myself would I feel the same way if I were born and raised on the other side of the fence. But as for one of your previous points, I haven't felt much regret over the worlds loss of Arafat. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Fair enough. Sorry I misunderstood. But still I think it's awfully hard to avoid our attitudes based on our backgrounds. For instance as Americans we will naturally get pissed off when people from other cultures criticize and vice versa. But you are correct. Often times if I look at a situation I try to ask myself would I feel the same way if I were born and raised on the other side of the fence. But as for one of your previous points, I haven't felt much regret over the worlds loss of Arafat. WSS Sure, it is hard. For me, I grew up in two worlds, so maybe it's a bit easier to see both sides of the story. As for Arafat, regardless of how anyone feels about him, assassination isn't something I think we should condone as a nation. America is better than that and we should expect our allies that receive billions of dollars from us to be better, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairHooker11 Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Sure, it is hard. For me, I grew up in two worlds, so maybe it's a bit easier to see both sides of the story. As for Arafat, regardless of how anyone feels about him, assassination isn't something I think we should condone as a nation. America is better than that and we should expect our allies that receive billions of dollars from us to be better, too. Arafat was a plain thug murderer..... how about Anwar Sadat? Egypts own! assassinated by his own arab brethern for peace deal with Israel? palestinians I bet? ( PLO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Arafat was a plain thug murderer..... how about Anwar Sadat? Egypts own! assassinated by his own arab brethern for peace deal with Israel? palestinians I bet? ( PLO) Nope, Sadat was assasinated by homegrown extremist nut jobs, not the PLO. I've also heard some claim Mubarak had something to do with it though I don't think that is a widely held belief. Either way, I wish we could've seen what Egypt would've become under his leadership. There are plenty of plain thug murderers on both sides of the conflict, you just don't hear about the Israeli ones in US media because of they are US allies, you have to go looking to find out about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Why do we give billions to Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc? Oh yes, and Egypt. Lol, we should stop that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Lol, we should stop that too. You mean stop the worlds most developed countries giving aid to those that can't even afford to get electricity and running water throughout a city, let alone a country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Most of the aid that goes to Egypt goes to the military. I'd like to see it structured so it has to be used for economic development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 You mean stop the worlds most developed countries giving aid to those that can't even afford to get electricity and running water throughout a city, let alone a country? Like Pakistan? Who somehow managed to afford getting a Nuclear Bomb? Or Afghanistan where Karzai is now probably a billionaire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Most of the aid that goes to Egypt goes to the military. I'd like to see it structured so it has to be used for economic development.I would guess that a very tiny amount of foreign aid whether from the United States or from anywhere else wind up arriving to humanitarian and economic development destinations.Not just in Egypt but anywhere in which the government seems constantly balanced on the edge of a military coup. WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 I would guess that a very tiny amount of foreign aid whether from the United States or from anywhere else wind up arriving to humanitarian and economic development destinations. Not just in Egypt but anywhere in which the government seems constantly balanced on the edge of a military coup. WSS Agree, and that's where the problem is. Same answer for you, DieHardBrownsFan. The money isn't being redistributed properly. That doesn't mean we should give up altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 And in fact, I'd be much, much happier seeing the foreign aid money being run through UNICEF or someone who will redistribute it properly, where it needs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 And in fact, I'd be much, much happier seeing the foreign aid money being run through UNICEF or someone who will redistribute it properly, where it needs to be.Unfortunately in the harsh light of reality that doesn't really buy us the kind of favor we need from those actually running those governments.WSS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Unfortunately in the harsh light of reality that doesn't really buy us the kind of favor we need from those actually running those governments. WSS Yes, that's on the mark. The people in Egypt who we'd like to see the money help have the least power and therefore least influence and relevance on the politics of the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 GFT, you don't actually think we give money to help the poor people do you? We do it for influence, military intelligence, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gftChris Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 I'm not quite that naive to think that all the money given is solely benevolent. But, I am naive enough to think that it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalabazooka Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 You mean stop the worlds most developed countries giving aid to those that can't even afford to get electricity and running water throughout a city, let alone a country? Most of the aid that goes to Egypt goes to the military. I'd like to see it structured so it has to be used for economic development. Osiris said it perfectly. There's so much corruption that eats at the "civilian" aid we give to these questionable allies. Most of our aid is explicitly military, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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