Boston Suspects Did Not Have Valid Handgun Licenses (Really?)

[nunboy]

I'm just going to keep going because now I'm laughing.

 

What's your argument for letting someone like that legally purchase a firearm? I mean, I could make one. I'm not sure I'd believe it, but at least I could make the argument.

 

Can you think of one? It doesn't seem that you can. Which is another way of saying, "Okay, I agree with you, I just don't want to say I do, or admit I do."

I agree that this is funny. You want to try and ignore the part where she said she was going to use rope and hang herself. But please go on, If the firearm was never invented she would still be dead and you would still have no point.

If she was in such danger that she would be put on a list so as not to purchase a firearm for fear that she may harm herself. Why was she allowed out of the hospital in the first place?

[VaporTrail]

If I could step in for a second...

 

The problem is choosing where to draw the line. At what point should your 2nd amendment rights be taken away for the safety of the general public? Depressed with a history of suicidal thoughts? I'm pretty sure ~95% of people with depression have thoughts like that, and the majority of them pose no threat to others. Taking a utilitarian point of view, I don't think the probability of stopping a sociopath is worth taking away a constitutional right of those who are afflicted with a very common mental illness. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

 

I'd be more inclined to go along with something like that if you were looking at bipolar disorder, but even doing that gives me a very uneasy feeling. At this point, I don't think the science of mental health is anywhere near the point where you can use it to start pointing out potential renegades without also alienating others with similar mental health states who wouldn't hurt a fly.

[heckofajobbrownie]

...And that's the argument.

 

Another one: You might not want to discourage people with serious mental illnesses from seeking treatment.

 

The problem I'd have with your argument is that we're not talking about taking rights away from people with very common mental illnesses. Someone in this woman's position hardly qualifies as a "common" depression case. She's not down because she's had a run of bad luck, lost her job, failed marriage, etc. That's common depression. She's clearly got a severe case. She's been in and out of hospitals for years. So, we're not talking about common types. We're not talking about ADHD. There is information on which mental illnesses have a track record of leading to violent crime/suicide - say, paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, and the like. That line probably can be drawn in a place where it makes sense to draw it.

 

I would agree that it might be tough to do it. But it might also be worth doing. Plus, we're completely ignoring the main reason for background checks - to keep violent felons from legally purchasing guns.

[MLD Woody]

That was getting painful to read

[VaporTrail]

...And that's the argument.

 

Another one: You might not want to discourage people with serious mental illnesses from seeking treatment.

 

The problem I'd have with your argument is that we're not talking about taking rights away from people with very common mental illnesses. Someone in this woman's position hardly qualifies as a "common" depression case. She's not down because she's had a run of bad luck, lost her job, failed marriage, etc. That's common depression. She's clearly got a severe case. She's been in and out of hospitals for years. So, we're not talking about common types. We're not talking about ADHD. There is information on which mental illnesses have a track record of leading to violent crime/suicide - say, paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, major depression, and the like. That line probably can be drawn in a place where it makes sense to draw it.

 

I would agree that it might be tough to do it. But it might also be worth doing. Plus, we're completely ignoring the main reason for background checks - to keep violent felons from legally purchasing guns.

 

Sorry, I only looked back a couple posts before saying screw it and didn't bother to figure out exactly what the scenario was. But when you bring up major depressive disorder, that just means anyone who's clinically diagnosed with depression. According to wikipedia, the majority of people who commit suicide have some sort of mood disorder, however, it's a small minority of those with clinical depression, about 3%, who actually end up killing themselves. Bipolar disorder is probably where you'd want to start drawing lines. 25-50% of those diagnosed with bipolar disorder have attempted suicide at least once. Even so, I think it's extremely problematic to prevent anyone ever diagnosed with that disorder from buying a legal firearm. As I suggested before, there would need to be more evidence, like a history of self-harm or harm to others before you're even remotely near the group that you want away from guns.

 

I just don't think there exists a feasible solution to carrying that out, since it involves stripping a constitutional right from people based on their health history rather than their criminal history.

[Westside Steve]

And that, vapor, is a tiny fraction of those with bipolar disorder.

I'd imagine the only the severest of cases ever get diagnosed. Don't we all know at least one or two people who are probably bipolar?

 

I tend to think that the understanding of these issues among even the brightest in the mental health profession is vague at best.

 

For instance suicide isn't rocket science, I'd bet most cases are attention getting devices.

I'm not laughing it off but there is that reality.

 

Understanding psychology is almost completely impossible for the rest of us.

 

WSS

[heckofajobbrownie]

 

Sorry, I only looked back a couple posts before saying screw it and didn't bother to figure out exactly what the scenario was. But when you bring up major depressive disorder, that just means anyone who's clinically diagnosed with depression. According to wikipedia, the majority of people who commit suicide have some sort of mood disorder, however, it's a small minority of those with clinical depression, about 3%, who actually end up killing themselves. Bipolar disorder is probably where you'd want to start drawing lines. 25-50% of those diagnosed with bipolar disorder have attempted suicide at least once. Even so, I think it's extremely problematic to prevent anyone ever diagnosed with that disorder from buying a legal firearm. As I suggested before, there would need to be more evidence, like a history of self-harm or harm to others before you're even remotely near the group that you want away from guns.

 

I just don't think there exists a feasible solution to carrying that out, since it involves stripping a constitutional right from people based on their health history rather than their criminal history.

 

You'd might have to have the courts involved. They'd have to be designated a danger to themselves or others, like the Virginia Tech shooter, and that has to start some process.

 

It does get complicated. I'd agree. But that doesn't mean it's not worth doing.