Flugel Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Really good post Flugel. Better then the "we are ESPN sheep" weak shit. I guess we will have to wait and see. One thing about the post I disagree with is about the discipline of these players. The Browns have 52 penalties (28th) and 428 yards (24th). Being ranked 32nd in the league in passing with 972 yards we have 1/2 the amount of passing yards FOR THE YEAR in penalties. Not only that it seems all of these penalties are at the worst possible time, drive stoppers. Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated. I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job. When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms When Parcells started in NE he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe. When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh. I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens. I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would. - Tom F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSixPat Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 I love the notion that it is Mangini's fault. Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.) Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done. He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value. Would you say he handled that situation well? Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB? Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them? And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs? In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks? And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team. My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward. But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSixPat Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever. It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue. Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever? Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football. That should bring closure and agreement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbell Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosar_For_President Posted November 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Hang in there man! We're all really really really frustrated. I'd like to see 1 Head Coach get a decent chance to prove he can do a good job. When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Scott bruner and Phil Simms When Parcells started in NY he was 1-15 with Drew Bledsoe. When Jimmy Johnson started in Dallas he was 1-15 with Aikman and the fans wanted Steve Walsh. I LIKE that we doubled our 2009 draft volumes from 4 picks to 8 picks and our 2010 draft volume into the double digits. Let's see what happens. I've ALWAYS wanted it to be just firing or benching so we wouldn't continue to look so much like 1999. Trouble is - it's now 2009 and we look just like 1999. More specifically, we've fired OCs, we've fired DCs, we've fired HCs, we've demtoed QBs to promote other QBs. Guess what? No 1 move changed things like people thought it would. - Tom F. Now Flugs I wasn't saying you are right. I was saying it was a good take. I still think that it was a poor decision. Please don't compare Parcells to Mangini, he was an established coach when taking over. Hey I will be the first one to come in here to say I was wrong, but I think I am right. We'll see though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neohionative Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Lets see..In his 4 year head coaching career Mangini has beaten Cowher, Tomlin, Fisher and Belichick..TWICE..Had 2 winning seasons as a head coach..To say he can't coach is just stupid Please... Belicheck has been beaten by schlubs especially when he was in Cleveland, and nearly lost to the Bills this year (remember them, the team we barely beat by a field goal?). Fisher's team could be beaten by a D3 school on a bad day this year, Cowher had packed it in his last year in the league, and Tomlin lost a game to the Bears this year. A couple of wins against good coaches does not mean he out-coached them, his team may have outplayed them, it may have been a fluke. And I'm sorry, but as a "genius" from the Belicheck tree, two "winning" seasons out of four? How many games does it take to make a winning season? I'm pretty sure Romeo went 1 for 3 or 4, so half as good right? No one is questioning if he can push X's and O's, but that doesn't make him a leader, a motivator, or someone that earns the players' respect, and frankly without those, you can't be a successful coach, the best you're looking at is a coordinator position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtownBrownsBacker Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Whats your take on the kokinis situation? ernie accorsi recommended him and he is a football guy. Is it a case of you can't be right all the time no matter who you are? Actually Accorsi didn't recommend Kokinis, he recommended the Pro Personnel director of the giants and Lerner went with Mangini's recommendation. But as it is being documented now, Kokinis definately stepped in over his head. I remember at training camp that he wouldn't even talk to people. He would be off by himself and was unapproachable. Never really saw him interact with the HC. Also, there is still something there regarding his relationship with O'Brien. Maybe both were just putting out feelers and befriended each other because they were very unhappy in Cleveland. Accorsi is a very well respected football man and well liked throughout the league. I don't think the door is shut on him yet. And, you are right saying "you can't be right all the time". Nobody is and especially in the NFL. I would have to qualify that and say with the exception of JoeSixPat, who thinks nobody else's opinions are worth shit and he is always right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtownBrownsBacker Posted November 9, 2009 Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Let's start with the QB situation alone, and leave aside the fact that he had more talent on this team than many previous Brown coaches have had (in which they've achieved better records.) Magnini - as the defacto GM and Coach - had thousands of hours of tape to review, and determined that rather than use the #5 pick for a premier Rookie QB, or rather than attempt to trade for any number of veteran QBs, he clearly felt confident that either Quinn or Anderson could get the job done. He presumabley assessed their talent, determined that he had the QB he needed on staff (or else he would have drafted, traded or signed a free agent) and he'd keep one and would trade the other for decent value. Would you say he handled that situation well? Would you say Mangini's decision not to make a deciison until just days before the start of the situation improved the confidence of his chosen QB? Would you say that showing 2 games worth of confidence in Quinn was wise after he told the players previously that he'd stand behind his choice? What do you think that does to others on the team who have received similar expressions of Mangini's "confidence" in them? And would you say that Mangini's handling of the sitation has improved the trade stock of either or both QBs? In other words, has Mangini's leadership and decision making process made the Browns stronger or weaker at QB and has he improved or ruined the trade value of two NFL quarterbacks? And bear in mind we're only talking about his handling of one and only one position or issue on the team. My assessment is on this one matter Mangnini has handled it as poorly as I've ever seen and NFL coach or GM handle a situation and his poor decision making and leadership skills has set the Browns further back, not helped them move forward. But that's just my opinion. Others may think things are going exceptionally well at the QB position. Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio? If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with? You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I'm shocked to see all this debate about whether Mangnini is the worst coaching hire ever. It's really clear there's a bit of a divide on that issue. Can't we all just put aside our differences and agree that he may not be the worst coaching hire ever? Now, second worst? THAT I'm sure we can all agree on. Second worst coaching hire ever in the history of football. That should bring closure and agreement! Joe, Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through? If you're not trying to be a dick - my apology. I don't see how ANYONE thinks there's a remotely fair assessment at ANYONE that was handed this cluster[huck for the reasons I've laid out in countless other threads. Just look at how Savage set up our last 2 drafts. There was no day 1 in 2008 and a total of 5 guys with ONLY Rubin striking me as a keeper. We had 4 picks coming into the 2009 draft. The previous regime pissed off the 2 alleged "superstars" to where their decisions were already made. Now we're trying to bulk up our draft volumes as they combine 2 wins and 10 losses where grass was supposed to be so much greener. ESPN had a GREAT article McDaniels and Mangini in the summer time. They did some BB projects as assistants that impressed the Hell out of BB and they are both workaholics LIKE BB. It was once assumed BB couldn't coach here in Cleveland. Today alot of those fans are in love with BB and ready to chase Mangini out of town as early as October. That's like telling Troy Aikman in his first 15 games "you can't QB" while Dallas fans were furious Steve Walsh wasn't starting instead. MOST of them were certain JJ couldn't coach. Do you know what HELPED him become a better coach in the fans' eyes? Doubling and tripling draft volumes. Alot of them think he just woke up a good coach one day. They thought the same thing about Troy Aikman waking up a good QB one day. You gotta have more than pawns to win chess matches or it just won't matter how smart or good a coach is. Don't believe me? What did BB ever win before Tom Brady was his starting QB? He certainly didn't win when Todd Philcox was his starting QB nor did he win when Eric Zeier had to be. I think he was winless with Drew Bledsoe as starter in NE right? - Tom F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neohionative Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thanks for your opinion on the matter, as usual it isn't worth shit. How do you mishandle a situation when neither QB did shit in summer camp and both tried to give the job away daily. Neither could perform worth a shit in preseason games and both have proven to be just what Mangini feared when he was trying to trade them in the preseason, overrated and unproductive players. So, again, how do you mishandle a situation where there is no winning senerio? If either player had great trade value they would have been traded. Don't even believe rumors that the team was offered anything close to any real value for either. Quinn was offered to the Jets, Lions and Denver and all turned the offers down. Mangini tried to trade Quinn all spring (widely reported). Denver only kept the Brown's hanging in case they got rid of Cutler and couldn't get a QB in return. They wanted Quinn and wanted Cleveland to take Campbell. They wouldn't have come close to trading a top draft pick for him. That was Quinn's value. The best the Brown's were offered for either was a 3rd. So, again, please tell me how Mangini ruined the trade value of two QBs that didn't have much to begin with? You spew a whole lot of crap my friend but you really don't have a clue. The childish secrecy didn't help the matter, and if neither quarterback was so obviously grossly unqualified for the position, as head coach it was his responsibility to trade one or both, or at the very least provide a viagle alternative. Widely reported? My ass, there were plenty of teams in need of a starting QB this year that BQ or DA could've been sent to. He ruined their trade value, by hiding the fact he thought they both sucked up until the opening game, putting Quinn in just long enough to look awful and then yanking him in favor of a guy that sucked worse against more pathetic teams, and not reinstating Quinn earlier. Is that you Eric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSixPat Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 Joe, Just curious what you're getting out of all this discussion? You claim to be a NE fan and you're on THIS board acting like you know what we're going through? Look up "New England Patriots... 1990. The Rod Rust years. Now Rod was a nice guy... not a control freak or an a-hole. Frankly more control would have been better. And I did go to some games that year and freeze my ass off on aluminum seats in freezing weather. But I and other fans also voted with our feet. We sent a loud message that was evident from numerous TV blackouts because fans weren't going to accept such awful football. There was a groundwell of fans who hoped the owner would improve the team or sell it - and he eventually he did and Bill Parcells was brought in to restore a team that had lost any credibility it once had gained. My "support" for the team took the shape of staying away in hopes of forcing a change. I don't know if that's why Kiam made the change he did (he at least was a smart businessman) but the end result is that we got a good change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flugel Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 Look up "New England Patriots... 1990. The Rod Rust years. Now Rod was a nice guy... not a control freak or an a-hole. Frankly more control would have been better. And I did go to some games that year and freeze my ass off on aluminum seats in freezing weather. But I and other fans also voted with our feet. We sent a loud message that was evident from numerous TV blackouts because fans weren't going to accept such awful football. There was a groundwell of fans who hoped the owner would improve the team or sell it - and he eventually he did and Bill Parcells was brought in to restore a team that had lost any credibility it once had gained. My "support" for the team took the shape of staying away in hopes of forcing a change. I don't know if that's why Kiam made the change he did (he at least was a smart businessman) but the end result is that we got a good change. You DO understand BB's masterful mind was just winless leading up to Brady's first start right? SOMEWHERE over the rainbow, BB needed to find that lucky pot of gold before he could showcase his true talents. If seen him coaching here when he had QBs named Zeier and Philcox just like I saw him in NE when he had a QB named Bledsoe. If it was just about the genious coach not needing the RIGHT QB - then BB would have won inspite of Philcox, inspite of Zeier and inspite of Bledsoe before every decent FA wanted to go to NE before they left football. Before Tom Brady's coming out party - I didn't hear people saying they wanted to go play in NE. I understand what yuz felt was right in NE. That said, you didn't have your franchise MOVE and it's about the worst experience you can ever fathom as a fan. Understanding the NFL has an itchy finger to put another team in Los Angeles - I don't want the message circulating that the fans of Cleveland have lost interest in the NFL. I don't think it would sit well with the Commish if they gave us a home game for MNF and everybody didn't find their seats by opening kickoff. What does that accomplish besides telling sane Americans everywhere: "see why no decent Head Coaching candidates want to come here?" Truth be told, I have yet to see the first Head Coach come here and rise Lazarus from the dead. I HAVE seen alot of coaches that were labelled good coaches coming here because they experienced success coaching good players elsewhere. They come here and they get a culture shock especially when players start getting injured on top of the slim pickings. It's like an MTV video of John Lennon's "Nobody Told Me There'd Be Days Like These." It goes to the top and Lerner has to be better with WHO he is bringing in to run his front office so a head Coach CAN be successful and the team CAN win. - Tom F. (Tough times don't last - tough people do. Browns fans are tough people!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSixPat Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 You DO understand BB's masterful mind was just winless leading up to Brady's first start right? SOMEWHERE over the rainbow, BB needed to find that lucky pot of gold before he could showcase his true talents. I wasn't even talking about Belichick. Parcells was the one who restored credibility to the Patriots. Parcells was tough but earned his respect... he didn't just expect it. He was bold enough and smart enough to use a high draft pick - and use it well (the Rick Mirer era in New England might not have gone as well) and was even able to successfully navigate the new world of the NFL salary cap. Most importantly he knew how to motivate players, to be tough with some and easy with others.... being a good judge of character and able to adapt his style for the personalities and talents of his players, and get a lot out of very little at times, motivating players to play harder for him and attracting good players to the team. I'd say Mangini is a bit different from what I described. Heck - he admits he doesn't even pay attention to the salary cap, and doesn't know that Brady Quinn has salary escalators that could very well make him untradeable. Cleveland fans seem to have an obsession with Belichick...perhaps this bizarre continued support of Mangini is a result of some form of guilt or remorse for the fan base all but abandoning and eschewing Belichick as coach... that THIS time they're going to stick by their hard-ass coach and he's going to be successful too! That would explain a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtownBrownsBacker Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 The childish secrecy didn't help the matter, and if neither quarterback was so obviously grossly unqualified for the position, as head coach it was his responsibility to trade one or both, or at the very least provide a viagle alternative. Widely reported? My ass, there were plenty of teams in need of a starting QB this year that BQ or DA could've been sent to. He ruined their trade value, by hiding the fact he thought they both sucked up until the opening game, putting Quinn in just long enough to look awful and then yanking him in favor of a guy that sucked worse against more pathetic teams, and not reinstating Quinn earlier. Is that you Eric? You are right that there were plenty of teams that wanted QBs this year and none would take either of ours. Anderson even had most of his salary paid and nobody would take him. Quinn's contract actually may have stopped teams in their tracks. Who wants to trade for a guy who would have a $11 million bonus kick in if he ended up being your starter. So, when you are stuck with a guarantee contract that nobody wants (Anderson) and a bonus that Quinn couldn't live up to, how is it the coaches responsibility to trade the guy. Let me say it again, nobody would trade for any value. Of course, that was before training camp opened, then their value dropped even further after teams saw them play preseason games. Couldn't even put up TDs against second teams and vanilla defenses. Was it childish secrecy or was it really the fact that neither could step up and claim the job. The whole training camp was one step forward and two steps back. Besides, where is it written that a coach has to bare his sole to the media........................screw that. The team knew and that's all that counted. Just like the team knows now who will be starting Monday night against the Ravens. I don't think they really care if Mary Kay or Grossi doesn't like the fact that they aren't privy to the decision yet. Bottom line is that Quinn will get another chance and it's his opportunity or it's goodbye. If he sucks as bad as the beginning of the year they most likely will end up with Ratliff and we will see both your boys gone next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbell Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 No one is questioning if he can push X's and O's, but that doesn't make him a leader, a motivator, or someone that earns the players' respect, and frankly without those, you can't be a successful coach In My world facts have to back up statements Show me somewhere thats says he's not those things..Players quotes..anything.jet guys. Patriot Guys..Actually Teddy Brushi just talked about what an excellent coach EM was...find me a quote.You can't, just some analysis from some "media types" who just speculate about such things...none of those guys are at squad meetings, pre game talks..How do they know.they don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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