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THE BROWNS BOARD

Phil Savage Must Go Too...


Flugel

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Here's Why:

He overspends on the wrong free agents - it took us how many WRONG free agents and draft picks to finally Land Shaun Rodgers?

1. Jason Fisk

2. Ted Washington

3. Ethan Kelly

4. O. Parker

5. Andrew Hoffman

6. Babe Oshinowo

7. Shaun Smith

 

Look at his first 3 ideas of good enough at QB:

1. Trent Dildo

2. Charlie Frye

3. Dumb Ass

 

Here's Phil's LBers via draft and free agency for this limp wristed 3-4:

1. Matt Stewart

2. Nick Speegle

3. David McMillan

4. Antwaan Peek

5. Shantee Orr

6. Willie "Playtoday?" McGinest

7. Kam Wimbley

8. D'Qwell Jackson

9. Leon Williams

AND even though he didn't BRING Andra Davis - he gave him a HUGE increase to stay. WTF?

 

How many oline or dline guys BESIDES a #3 pick overall have we drafted that's started any games in 4 FREAKIN years? That's not an A it's an F and not just an F - a FREAKIN F and I don't feel like sayin FREAKIN.

 

Here's the players and coaches Savage gave raises exactly when they were ready to suck, hit the wall or get injured:

Andra Davis, Orpheus Roye, Denise Northcutt, Leigh Bodden, Ryan "AWOL" Tucker, Jamal Lewis, Derek Anderson, Todd Granthom, Romeo Crennel.

 

Because we could NOT draft worth a damn - how MANY of these overpriced FAs helped us?

Gary Baxter (not his fault BUT his salary was 3rd highest on team so the impact was brutal)

LeCharles Bentley (see Gary Baxter & now we see it HELPS to be able to draft guys)

Kenny Wright (wasn't worth the price of the bag of weed he purchased)

Antwaan Peek (I got your peek right here Peak-a-booboo)

Jason Fisk (If you've ever seen an engine without fuel that was Ja-sone)

Ted Washington (10 years ago would have been ideal)

Joe Andruzzi (He was an El Cid story where we put a uniform on a dead body & PAID it)

Matt Stewart (Nice guy but you don't want him starting for your favorite team)

Shantee Orr (He's from Michigan so he's soft)

Robaire Smith (impressed by him in 2007 but we paid him 2 years salary to suit up for 1 year)

Joe Jurevicius (good when healthy but how often is that in 3 years?)

Donte Stallworth (He'll be on his 5 or 6th unsatisfied team in 09)

Trent Dilfer (To say he sucked is a compliment - now he's trashing the Browns' front office)

Ken Dorsey (Dumb Ass learned 0 from him & he told BQ don't do what DA keesp doing)

Derek Anderson (played better at the cost of a bag of stale potato chips)

Antonio Bryant (bad attitude, too many drops = led us in receving + walking papers)

Bryan Russell (was the ONLY player in the middle of the field opponents feared = pink slip)

Nat Dorsey

Lennys Kravitz/Friedman

The 8 centers we signed before Fraley.

Hank Fraley (Demoted as not good enough in Philly)

Kevin Shaffer (As a LEFT Tackle - how often did you say uh-oh or oh no?)

Eric Steinbach (LIKE him alot but is the ghost of Joe Andruzzi haunting him with wear & tear)

Ruben Droughns (Too bad hit his girlfriend harder than the hole the last year with us)

 

Don't misinterpret the message. Injuries are BAD luck and it's not like the players WANTED them. HOWEVER, if ALL our marbles are being placed into free agency - SHAME on us for NOT drafting better to be in the Same exact position of devastation EVERY time we lose countless high paid free agents to injury. Phil summarized his interviews saying this franchise needed to draft better to improve continuity.

 

Bottom line: My first impression of Savage was I LOVED hearing him SOUND like he fully understood this franchise needed BETTER drafting to improve continuity. That was powerful and at first I DIGGED the going overboard in free agency with the understanding we could only draft so many rookies. The PROBLEM sets in when most of the guys he drafted were not good enough to MAKE them team; and if I summarize what the majority opinion of Braylon Edwards, Kam Wimbley and D'Qwell Jackson is - the only draft day home runs are Eric Wright and the UNDRASFTED Josh Cribbs. That said, HOW LONG did we have to hear we had nobody capable of replacing Northcutt in the return game when Cribbs was employed? That being the case, Phillip felt compelled to give Northcutt and extra 2 million $ bonus. Folks, that dumb when you can SEE Cribbs every day in practice. They film every session.

 

I'm sick of this damn 3-4 full of ankle-grabbers at LBer, RAC and Opie's "aw shucks" every Monday morning. I'm also sick of NICE guys. This football franchise needs MEAN Basterd instead of everyone's friend running the show so we can Re-establish the HEART, intensity and SPINAL column the team we grew up loving had. It's dead and buried UNTIL it gets changed. We gotta give BOTH RAC & Savage the boot. Our drafts SUCK and the reason everyone always has to boo is because we're looking at the same kind of clowns Butch Davis gave eveyone to hate. The boos stop when you're watching the RIGHT guys. It's not complicated. When Cribbs is in - you cheer. When Dumb Ass is in you boo. When RAC makes a decision you boo. When Jamal is tiptoing - you boo. When 3 stiffs can't tackle Daniel Graham on his way to a TD - you boo. When Corey Williams has more offsides penalties than sacks - you boo. When Jerome Harrison averages 11 yards a touch - you cheer. Difficult? It never had to be.

- Tom F.

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Guest Masters

I have never seen Phil be awe shucks like DA or RAC. You can't pin the 3-4 on Phil either, that's RAC's call.

 

What is wrong with S. Smith, other than his mouth?

 

Every where you list the guy injured, how do you pin that on Phil. Baring Stallworth, who while not missing more than a game a season (and that is a stretch) usually was a probable on teams because of hammy or thigh, none were injury prone. That's bad luck and magnified more on CLE, because they had nothing before Phil even came in. Am I the only person who remembers the talent on CLE before Phil got here? Jesus, even as fans we knew those teams wouldn't compete every week, let alone for a season. CLE is losing by an average of less than 10 points each week. Talentless teams don't do that. Talentless teams aren't in games or winning games in the 4th quarter, only to lose. Badly coached teams do that. Teams lacking leadership and fire do that. That falls on RAC. Biggest mistake Phil (or really Lerner) was the extension given to RAC last year.

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Guest Masters

I wouldn't say it would set CLE back (unless they hired a nuckle head), nor dub him a guru (he has missed in the draft and a few in FA-I will never count dudes who end up with injuries). But Phil is the least of CLEs problems.

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I think you can look at any team and point out lots of players moves that didn't work. They are working on a success ratio that is lower than a baseball batting average.

 

Also....one has to give savage a pass on backers.

 

We switched to a 3-4 when he came here and didn't have enough backers on the roster to facilitate that move....same with linemen really...so he was forced in to needs based drafting....and now you see what you get when you have to let team needs dictate who you draft.

 

Last year was probably the first draft where we could draft by the board and not let needs force our hand...and last year was a pretty good draft.

 

The fact people need to understand is if you get 2 pretty good players a draft, you are doing a pretty good job. Every once in a while a team hits the mother load, but that doesn't happen that often.

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Savage makes me mad sometimes but overall he is better than many GMs in the league and will only get better his problem seems to be more of the way lerner wants things run "a partnership system" so savage has to generally make decisions with RAC and or lerner the real missing link partner in this wallstreet type setup is a functioning thinking motivated head coach that is capable of making timely decisions when they count and shouldnt need someone from upstairs to step in often...

 

Phil will be fine as long as he gets a new coach that understands how to coach and isnt still learning 4 years later...

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give Phil a pass on free agents lets face it you have to overpay to get guys to come to a organization like ours. Also there is a need to try and make up for the blown drafts of the past and present. On drafting Phil has been less than average with the exception of the Thomas/Quinn deal. Take the front seven with the exception of Rogers who is good enough to start with a good team if just a third the linebackers and dlineman he drafted were just at best good our D would be fine. There's no playmakers to be found.

 

Until Learner and his personal adviser Jim Brown get lucky and hire the right people will be stuck the same or another below average coach and GM.

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I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on Phil as we don't have other GM success %'s.

 

I thought his '07 draft was good,

 

1. (3) Joe Thomas, OT, Wisconsin

 

1. (22) Brady Quinn, QB, Notre Dame

 

2. (53) Eric Wright, CB, UNLV

 

5. (140) Brandon McDonald, S/CB, Memphis State

 

6. (200) Melila Purcell, DE, Hawaii

 

7. (213) Chase Pittman, DE, LSU

 

7. (234) Syndric Steptoe, WR/KR, Arizona

 

To me, his main error was hanging on to DA for too long. He had a chance to make the genius move of taking a QB off waivers and turn him into a high draft pick by trading him at his peak. Missed oppurtunity.

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I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on Phil as we don't have other GM success %'s.

 

Agreed but in year four I expected more in regards to our defense. Seems like we still don't have the right players for this 3/4 or any resemblance of pass rush or the ability to stop the run this is where we were in 99.

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Good discussion folks - I enjoy debates where people disagree. I've seen some good arguements against my opinion so THANK you for using specific examples. Thart's a good job by you folks.

 

This is where I'm coming from: At first I was wild about Phil and LOVED his offseason hustle. I GET he's new and ambitious to being THE guy in charge. That said: I just watched a season where we only had a couple of draft picks after the first 2 guys got injured and I can ony ask why do we suck so bad in this bottom line business?

 

THIS is what we did with Carmen Policy as his first 2 Head Coach choices receieved all the death threats. He got ZERO percent of the blame. ZERO. Let's face it - avid fans are going to WANT the pillars of this franchise to succeed so MANY of us were HOMERS about Couch & Brown. Although I wasn't a BIG Brown fan. I wanted Arrington and I think Zombo was the other fan hoping we'd get Arrington prolly more even more so than me. Even though he made a few Pro Bowls - his career was every bit as short as Courtney Brown's.

 

Anyway, I think there's ALOT of really responses that disagree with me. I'm just going by the REASON we brought Phil here, which was to draft better which restores a sense of continuity. ALOT of guys saying Savage is wonderful are talking about cleaning house so you have to excuse me for wondering how we leap frog the guy in charge of personnel and go straight to the DUMB Head Coach. I want RAC gone as well BUT the 2007 draft folks is ONLY 1 draft and I had to look at ZERO draft picks until round 4 in 2008 - after the 2005 and 2006 draft picks did little to impress me. Just a question: what guys are left from the 2005 and 2006 drafts?

 

I AGREE alot of free agency was necessary in 2005 and even 2006. However, what made everyone so FREAKIN happy about Matt Stewart, Jason Fisk, Ted Washington, and Trent Dilfer? I guess Antonio Bryant's character gave him a season of no football in 2007 so he didn't stay. Gary Baxter got injured so it was right back to WHO did you draft to replace him. This year, HOW has Stallworth and Corey Williams made us better? Meanwhile Peekabooboo is injured again and Robaire went to IR in training camp so WHO did we draft to fill in? What oline OR dline guys have we drafted and coached up into starters besides a #3 overall pick in FOUR years? These guys we cut didn't go land on better teams and crack starting lineups - they're out of the league.

 

My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 WHEN do you folks want to use phrases like "THIS YEAR"? Alot of times Superbowl Coordinators everyone wants - go to NFL teams with poor management and it's culture shock, then fire the HC time.

 

You don't have to agree but I think I have a legit gripe in holding Savage more accoutnable than our wishful thinkers who are absolutely certain our only problem is the HC when I couldn't find 1 personnel choice WANTING to tackle anybody the other night. If million $ salaries require game day save your career pep talks - we've got the WRONG personnel choices in the first place. I'm holding RAC accountable; but I'm treating the entire Staff Infection not just the chubbiest symptom. When you aren't drafting well, you're throwing too many marbles into free agency so when these guys got injured like usual - it's right back to WHO did you draft to take their spots. And then we're right back to excusing the GM to injuries and bad luck. Nothing's changed and I keep hearing how talented we are. Are Stallworth, Lewis, Peek, Williams giving us the return value they're paid out? Absolutely not so how did Travis Wilson fill in for Stallworth? That was one of Phil's favorites as was Brodney Pool. Our Safeties were less visable than Osama Bin Laden the other night.

 

You can have a GREAT coach sucking because his GM is Matt Millen folks. Not saying Phil is THAT bad but Simeon Rice said Rod Manuel was the best coach he ever played for at any level and Detroit had the perfect guy. Guess what? Roy Williams is a good WR and Calvin Johnson will be a great WR and their rookie RB will be solid BUT there's to many bad personnel choices ruining that franchise to make their fans see the good choices. All I can ask is what's our record in the 4th year of the plan? And if Phil isn't making ANY mistakes at all, why did RAC get a raise? He's a little more accouintable for where we are than people think. His first DUMB idea was Trent Dilfer, who's now going public on the show he's hired to do that the problems are in the chaotic and confused front office. Not that he's ever shown me has has an ounce of football smarts but wasn't that Phil's FIRST boy here? Not good.

- Tom F.

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Maybe some of those players originally listed that Phil "whiffed" on would be good players if they had a head coach to make them good players. I have a sneaking feeling that some of those players would not have been bad signings/draftings if our head coach had half a clue how to coach them up. This team has been full of talent for a while now.

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Flugel, I've read almost the same post from you several times now. And you always get good responses and discussions, but you don't seem to take any of the responses to heart.

 

The thing that bothers me is that you seem to hold Savage accountable for players who get injured. As if other GMs around the league are much better at telling the future.

 

You blame him for the misfortunes of players like:

Antwaan Peak

Gary Baxter

Ryan Tucker

Robiare Smith

Joe Jurevicius

Etc.

 

STOP BLAMING SAVAGE FOR INJURIES, PLEASE! If anything blame the strength and conditioning people, who Crennel brings in.

 

You call out all of the Centers he brought in, when MOST of them were brought in in a scramble to recover from Bentley's injury and the backup's sudden retirement. He was working with what was available. And now you blame him because Fraley was Demoted in Philly. . . yet Fraley has ben a very good Center, and team captain here.

 

He's had very successful free agencies to address needs every year. Every year he has made improvements in the talent level. The teams was a black-hole of talent when he got here, so he couldn't do everything at once, the players just weren't available. Mass overhauls are done through free agency, based on availability, and he has nabbed some of the top free agents every single year.

 

His first draft was not very good, but his scouting group was brand new at that time. Ever since then his drafts have been on par with or better than every team in the league. NO TEAM HITS A HOME RUN WITH EVERY DRAFT CHOICE! But he has brought in good pontential in every draft since then:

 

06 - Wimbley, Jackson, Leon Williams, Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers

07 - Joe Thomas, Brady Quinn, Eric Wright, Brandon McDonald, Syndric Steptoe

08 - Too early to tell, but good promise from Martin Rucker, Alex Hall, and Beau Bell

 

But you'll blame Savage on Wimbley underachieving. Savage's job is to identify talent and bring it in. Wimbley was a beast in year 1, but somehow it's Savage's fault that the coaches can't keep him active and involved in the D?

 

Several weeks ago you posted pretty much this same message, and I responded with listings of draft grades and free agency grades for the Browns. They have been grading better than the Steelers, Ravens, Colts, etc every year in post-draft and post-free agency grades. But that is ignored. The players are good, and often show promise when they first get here, but our coaching staff is not properly utilizing players, not coaching them up, fitting the players in a scheme and not the scheme to the players.

 

We see promise from the players like Quinn and Harrison and Alex Hall (all Savage Draftees), yet we continue to see Crennel play ineffective players in front of them.

 

And did you call Ken Dorsey a helpless overpriced FA? There is no way he's overpriced, and he's been an EXCELLENT 3rd QB and player/coach. That's exactly what they asked him to do.

 

Savage is going nowhere. I guarantee that (unless he just quits because he doesn't like Lerner) he'll be here for at least 1 more coach. Crennel will lose his job, and Savage will have the opportunity to bring in another coach. Like it or not, Savage is here for a while.

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I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Savage yet. He HAS made mistakes...IMHO, the largest are:

1) Re-signing DA when you KNOW someone else would end up giving us good picks for a guy who couldn't put a game away. Last year, DA was the recipient of a LOT of other things going well such as Chud's influence, O-line play, receiver play, & a great back. What QB wouldn't have won?...& he STILL never was able to put a game out of reach so Brady could get game experience.

2) Apparently sticking with RAC for the rest of this year. I think we have enough talent with which to win, IF they are properly coached (read, in part, tackling fundamentals) & motivated (sometimes motivation is collecting splinters, Mr Edwards). The team is not properly motivated now & I am concerned that by sticking with RAC through the season, our self motivated & prideful players may say, "Get me OUT of here!".

I honestly believe that we COULD win with the players we have, that we are NOT a bad team, but a team whose talent is not utilized to be successful. The Browns, again IMHO, probably get LESS out of the talent they have on the roster than any other team in the league. THAT is called poor coaching.

Mike

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Flugel, I've read almost the same post from you several times now. And you always get good responses and discussions, but you don't seem to take any of the responses to heart.

 

The thing that bothers me is that you seem to hold Savage accountable for players who get injured. As if other GMs around the league are much better at telling the future.

 

You blame him for the misfortunes of players like:

Antwaan Peak

Gary Baxter

Ryan Tucker

Robiare Smith

Joe Jurevicius

Etc.

 

STOP BLAMING SAVAGE FOR INJURIES, PLEASE! .

 

That's just it - I'm not BLAMING him for injuries and I've clarified every time I've posted it so you're NOT reading a word I'm writing. You're just going too HOMER on Savage to read what I'm writing. My problem isn't personal with you Fooleeze and I WANT everyone we hire to come and deliver what they're promising. The LONGER we accept losing - the longer we lose. I don't accept it. Fire RAC, Fire Savage, Fire the water boys, fire the janitors if that's what makes us better. And fire the basterds selling beer at Donald Trump prices.

 

I'm blaming Savage for not drafting well enough to put us in the SAME position we're always in when overpriced FAs come here and either get injured or they feel like they already played their best football to earn what Cleveland is FINALLY payign them. Jason Fisk & Ted Washington had ZERO in their tank so what draft pick between Andrew Hoffman and Babe Oshinowo was GOOD enough to play? Answer: neither. And what SMARTER NFL coach hired either kid and have them active on Sundays? And why? They were TERRIBLE picks so when we discovered BOTH FAs had nothing in their engines - we ranked dead LAST in stopping the run because our apex was soft. As a result, our ILBers got to extend their less than memorable careers feedign off they didn't have anyone on the Apex/Nose in front of them occupying blockers. .

 

I'm saying the reason we're STILL stuck on pause when our overpriced FAs get injured EVERY year is because we STILL can't draft worth crap. When Joe Andruzzi played injured Ike Sowells was too much of a pussy to fill in. BAD pick my friend. When AWOL Tucker got injured or went AWOL this Jon Dunn Phil drafted was not good enough to make the team. And if it was JUST RAC sucking all by his lonesome, wouldn't we see some of these Phil Savage picks making other teams and rotations? Are we? Show me a name.

 

And not for nothing, but if we had Lance Moore AND Phil's favorite draft day steal Travis Wilson - Guess who stays and guess who sprays? And WHY do you think that is because RAC has more power than Opie? If anything our staff gave Travis Wilson WAY too long BECAUSE he was one of Phil's proudest moments on draft day. Go back review the press conference on THAT stupid pick. But as we always do, Savage is innocent and it's ALWAYS the Coaches.

 

Bottom line: DID Savage or didn't Savage give RAC a raise? Did Savage or didn't Savage give Andra Davis a raise? Let's just leap frog RAC and assume he gave himself a raise AND Andra Davis a raise and Todd Granthom.

 

It's inevitable we're changing coaches BUT just like last time was Butch Davis & Chris Palmer the disease or the symptom? Trent Dilfer is trashing the front office here saying they were in a state of chaos the entire length of his absurd stay. Talk about starting us out on the wrong foot - what genious decided Dilfer was PERFECT for us? Wanna pretend it was RAC too?

 

As bad as Butch was - have you ever seen sic em better than Jamir Miller being NOVICE to the DE position? As BAD as Butch was - he turned 5-27 into playoffs in just 2 years. The Shit hit the fan when Butch said Dwight Clark was worthless and wanted more GM duties. I haven't seen Mike Holmgren or Tom Coughlin look good in a dual role of Head Coach & GM either. The LAST time we were so certain that all we had to do was CHANGE the Head Coach from Butch to RAC - how many more wins have we averaged in this 4 year period?

 

If you're READING my message, I'm blaming Savage for not living up to his promises of drafting BETTER to restore continuity. Therefore, when these guys we're OVERPAYING as free agents like Stallworth are injured - we'd have a draft pick better than Travis Wilson to step up and deliver. If I'm not mistaking, Marques Colston came out of the SAME draft right? There's guys out there. Jerricho Cotchery - I mean they're around. This kid from Wisconsin couldn't CATCH the ball at Wisconsin so HOW is he going to find that EASIER at the next level? BAD pick. There's TONS of fast guys with better hands - trust me.

 

When a NEW coach walks into a Head Coach job at Pittsburgh - he doesn't have a salary cap chaos from overpaid stiffs. He's got layers and layers of BETTER drafting than Phil Savage.

 

When RAC was the DC of NE - noone questioned his coaching ABILITY. Why do you suppose that is? Look at their front 3 when they were winning SBs and look at HOW they problem solved an injury depleted secondary heading into one of their SB runs. Assante Samuel was a 4th round pick and they had another guy they put in that was either undrafted or last round. ALOT of people would want the TALENTED cast Spagnola had but if Spags comes here he has Wimbley instead of Tuck. Could we have drafted Tuck? Absolutely. BTW, when Kiwanuka got injured for the entire 2007 season - they had OTHER former draft picks in the rotation named Strahan and Youmeanbasterd. Neither were overpriced FAs and how convenient for a HC. Look at NY's RBs & WRs (besides Burress) & DBs and oline. They're freakin loaded. Their oline is a blend of guys but none were overpriced in free agency. Teams weren't FIGHTING to sign O'Hara away from our 31st ranked offense.

 

Let's look at round 1:

Wimbley - pass or fail?

Edwards? Injured in 05, nothign in 06, great in 07, & read the negativity about him in 08.

BEST pick was a #3 overall - Joe Thomas. Love the kid but how can you screw up the pick of the litter?

Did we have a rd 1 in 08? Round 2? Round 3? Cool, we must be undefeated with those moves then right? We're 3-6 on my television and in my newspaper.

 

What round 2 guys have knocked your socks off or shown consistency? D'Qwell Rainer? Brodney WherewereyouThursdayNight?

 

My favorite players are Quinn, Thomas and Cribbs. Noone else is providing the winning impact as they say.

 

These FAs would have been perfect 6-7 years ago:

Jamal Lewis

Joe Jurevicius

Joe Andruzzi

Ted Washington

Willie McGinest

Robaire Smith

Jason Fiske

 

You HAVE to look at age and wear and tear to understand the difference between upside and not about to justify the dollars. BEST example is Robaire Smith was a pleasant surprise in 2007 and now in 2008 the reality is we're only getting one season in return for 2 years salary. Smart buy? The injury isn't Phil's fault but overlooking the RISK is.

 

You can provide me a list of names of draft picks you like but how many are after round 1 and how are they helping us WIN games today? Phil's press conference was he was going to draft better and if you're one of the ones bellyaching about Edwards dropping passes every day and Wimbley's sack volume - then you're sending me mixed messages. I GET trying free agency in 05 and 06 but in 08 - the ONLY good free agent we signed this offseason that's been worth a damn is Shaun Rogers. Corey Williams stinks and so does Stallworth if we're being honest with what we're seeing.

 

If we're gonna replace Butch Davis then by God let's REPLACE him instead of half steppin and "aw shucks." I don't know what everyone in Phil Savage paradise is watching but I'm watching a limp wristed 3-4 with ILBers that either grabs above the shoulders or they ankle grab. Did ANYONE on our defense besides grandpa McGinest want to hit anyone on Thursday? You think that's the BEST we can do in terms of talent? Seriously? I thought our first game with an intelligent QB and 30 points wouldn't be nearly as overwhelming to our defense as it was. Guess what that says for the character of players Phil is overpaying on defense right now? This isn't MUCH different than 2003 following a promising 2002 season if we're being completely honest. We actually BEAT Pittsburgh near the beginning of that 2003 season on Monday Night Football sort of like we beat the Giants and then it was our last hurrah if you will. Same old song and dance until our BRASS changes it.

 

Nuff said - we have to better in the front office to compete with Ozzie and the folks in Pitt. We're not even close right now.

- Tom F. (Whatever happened to kickoff and kickass? It got replaced by "Aw shucks, the Roman Empire wasn't built in a day.")

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Here's Why:

He overspends on the wrong free agents - it took us how many WRONG free agents and draft picks to finally Land Shaun Rodgers?

1. Jason Fisk

2. Ted Washington

3. Ethan Kelly

4. O. Parker

5. Andrew Hoffman

6. Babe Oshinowo

7. Shaun Smith

 

Look at his first 3 ideas of good enough at QB:

1. Trent Dildo

2. Charlie Frye

3. Dumb Ass

 

Here's Phil's LBers via draft and free agency for this limp wristed 3-4:

1. Matt Stewart

2. Nick Speegle

3. David McMillan

4. Antwaan Peek

5. Shantee Orr

6. Willie "Playtoday?" McGinest

7. Kam Wimbley

8. D'Qwell Jackson

9. Leon Williams

AND even though he didn't BRING Andra Davis - he gave him a HUGE increase to stay. WTF?

 

How many oline or dline guys BESIDES a #3 pick overall have we drafted that's started any games in 4 FREAKIN years? That's not an A it's an F and not just an F - a FREAKIN F and I don't feel like sayin FREAKIN.

 

Here's the players and coaches Savage gave raises exactly when they were ready to suck, hit the wall or get injured:

Andra Davis, Orpheus Roye, Denise Northcutt, Leigh Bodden, Ryan "AWOL" Tucker, Jamal Lewis, Derek Anderson, Todd Granthom, Romeo Crennel.

 

Because we could NOT draft worth a damn - how MANY of these overpriced FAs helped us?

Gary Baxter (not his fault BUT his salary was 3rd highest on team so the impact was brutal)

LeCharles Bentley (see Gary Baxter & now we see it HELPS to be able to draft guys)

Kenny Wright (wasn't worth the price of the bag of weed he purchased)

Antwaan Peek (I got your peek right here Peak-a-booboo)

Jason Fisk (If you've ever seen an engine without fuel that was Ja-sone)

Ted Washington (10 years ago would have been ideal)

Joe Andruzzi (He was an El Cid story where we put a uniform on a dead body & PAID it)

Matt Stewart (Nice guy but you don't want him starting for your favorite team)

Shantee Orr (He's from Michigan so he's soft)

Robaire Smith (impressed by him in 2007 but we paid him 2 years salary to suit up for 1 year)

Joe Jurevicius (good when healthy but how often is that in 3 years?)

Donte Stallworth (He'll be on his 5 or 6th unsatisfied team in 09)

Trent Dilfer (To say he sucked is a compliment - now he's trashing the Browns' front office)

Ken Dorsey (Dumb Ass learned 0 from him & he told BQ don't do what DA keesp doing)

Derek Anderson (played better at the cost of a bag of stale potato chips)

Antonio Bryant (bad attitude, too many drops = led us in receving + walking papers)

Bryan Russell (was the ONLY player in the middle of the field opponents feared = pink slip)

Nat Dorsey

Lennys Kravitz/Friedman

The 8 centers we signed before Fraley.

Hank Fraley (Demoted as not good enough in Philly)

Kevin Shaffer (As a LEFT Tackle - how often did you say uh-oh or oh no?)

Eric Steinbach (LIKE him alot but is the ghost of Joe Andruzzi haunting him with wear & tear)

Ruben Droughns (Too bad hit his girlfriend harder than the hole the last year with us)

 

Don't misinterpret the message. Injuries are BAD luck and it's not like the players WANTED them. HOWEVER, if ALL our marbles are being placed into free agency - SHAME on us for NOT drafting better to be in the Same exact position of devastation EVERY time we lose countless high paid free agents to injury. Phil summarized his interviews saying this franchise needed to draft better to improve continuity.

 

Bottom line: My first impression of Savage was I LOVED hearing him SOUND like he fully understood this franchise needed BETTER drafting to improve continuity. That was powerful and at first I DIGGED the going overboard in free agency with the understanding we could only draft so many rookies. The PROBLEM sets in when most of the guys he drafted were not good enough to MAKE them team; and if I summarize what the majority opinion of Braylon Edwards, Kam Wimbley and D'Qwell Jackson is - the only draft day home runs are Eric Wright and the UNDRASFTED Josh Cribbs. That said, HOW LONG did we have to hear we had nobody capable of replacing Northcutt in the return game when Cribbs was employed? That being the case, Phillip felt compelled to give Northcutt and extra 2 million $ bonus. Folks, that dumb when you can SEE Cribbs every day in practice. They film every session.

 

I'm sick of this damn 3-4 full of ankle-grabbers at LBer, RAC and Opie's "aw shucks" every Monday morning. I'm also sick of NICE guys. This football franchise needs MEAN Basterd instead of everyone's friend running the show so we can Re-establish the HEART, intensity and SPINAL column the team we grew up loving had. It's dead and buried UNTIL it gets changed. We gotta give BOTH RAC & Savage the boot. Our drafts SUCK and the reason everyone always has to boo is because we're looking at the same kind of clowns Butch Davis gave eveyone to hate. The boos stop when you're watching the RIGHT guys. It's not complicated. When Cribbs is in - you cheer. When Dumb Ass is in you boo. When RAC makes a decision you boo. When Jamal is tiptoing - you boo. When 3 stiffs can't tackle Daniel Graham on his way to a TD - you boo. When Corey Williams has more offsides penalties than sacks - you boo. When Jerome Harrison averages 11 yards a touch - you cheer. Difficult? It never had to be.

- Tom F.

 

Good post...well thought out....let me ask you two questions., Give me your top 5 GM's and top 5 teams...or top 3. You obviouslt put Ozzie and Pitt ahead of Savage...."Nuff said - we have to better in the front office to compete with Ozzie and the folks in Pitt"

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Guest Masters

When looking at that list of FA signings, on the D side, that CLE is running a 3-4. Guys that can play NT or DE in the 3-4 don't grow on trees. There are only 3 teams in the NFL that run the 3-4 with great success (w/ SD falling off). The other 2 teams, PIT and NE have been running that D for 8 or more years.

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I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Savage yet. He HAS made mistakes...IMHO, the largest are:

1) Re-signing DA when you KNOW someone else would end up giving us good picks for a guy who couldn't put a game away. Last year, DA was the recipient of a LOT of other things going well such as Chud's influence, O-line play, receiver play, & a great back. What QB wouldn't have won?...& he STILL never was able to put a game out of reach so Brady could get game experience.

2) Apparently sticking with RAC for the rest of this year. I think we have enough talent with which to win, IF they are properly coached (read, in part, tackling fundamentals) & motivated (sometimes motivation is collecting splinters, Mr Edwards). The team is not properly motivated now & I am concerned that by sticking with RAC through the season, our self motivated & prideful players may say, "Get me OUT of here!".

I honestly believe that we COULD win with the players we have, that we are NOT a bad team, but a team whose talent is not utilized to be successful. The Browns, again IMHO, probably get LESS out of the talent they have on the roster than any other team in the league. THAT is called poor coaching.

Mike

 

 

 

Can you say "pass the Koolaid" icon_lol.gificon_lol.gif ??

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When looking at that list of FA signings, on the D side, that CLE is running a 3-4. Guys that can play NT or DE in the 3-4 don't grow on trees. There are only 3 teams in the NFL that run the 3-4 with great success (w/ SD falling off). The other 2 teams, PIT and NE have been running that D for 8 or more years.

 

NE ran a 3-4 and they drafted Vince Wilfork to provide a strong apex.

 

Pitt runs a 3-4 and they drafted Casey Hampton with Jason Hoke as their backup while we're thinking of excuses that there's not enough good football players in America for the Cleveland Browns to find them too. Masters, I think you're a VERY insightful fan that I enjoy reading but look at the length you're going to in order to be positive about Savage. It's year #4 and ARE we winning? If NOT, why in God's blazes did Opie give RAC a raise? And because Opie agrees with you that there are NO MORE good LBers in America - we'd rather give Andra Davis a raise and pretend our Wali Rainer clone (Jackson) is good enough for a 3-4. We haven't been at the draft for just 1 draft - this was the 4th one and whjat LBer impresses you from a defense predicated by the play of the LBers?

 

FYI, SD drafted a kid out of Northwestern to play NT and he's done pretty well. Luis Castillo. He was available when we were drafting.

 

Phil Savage has been PUSHING for this 3-4 since he got here. RAC ran a 4-3 when he was a DC for us and when he FIRST went back to NE they were using a 4-3 with Ted Johnson playing MLB. Injuries up front made them go to a 3-4 if you remember when they lost a few guys on their dline rotation. They had enough talent to do it.

 

Ted Bruschi AND Mike Vrabel weren't LBers in college but they had the TALENT, physical tools, football smarts/instincts to be naturals. Here's the gems NE drafted on their front dline:

Willie McGinest, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymore, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green. They've had a free agent like Ted Washington before he became a senior citizen. When Willie left they got Adalius Thomas and drafted Mayo at LBer. That's outrageously good. They WON Superbowls with the WRs they drafted Givens & Branch and haven't won a SB when they upgraded to Moss. I always say - there's somethign about a player setting out to PROVE his value vrs a player who's value that has already been determined. Branch & Givens haven't done a thing since they got their dream salaries.

 

Haloti Ngata was available when we drafted Wimbley. He's a BIG 2 gapper type that could play NT.

 

There's ALOT of good DEs in the league. Kyle Vanden Bosch here in Nashville is as good as they get. You're dodging the issue that Corey Williams is justifying his inflated salary. There was NO pass rush on Thursday Night and when you have more offsides penalties than sacks when you occupy millions of dollars from our cap - you're screwing us.

 

Folks, what's with the pampers for Phil Savage and his choices?

 

Are ya REALLY THIS pumped about 3-6?

 

I've never seen so many excuses for junior achievement in all my life. You LIKE this? God bless ya! Not me. I saw REAL defensive football in Cleveland throughout the 80s to accept this as - as good as it gets. Not even close. I feel bad for you guys that NEVER got to see a Clay Matthews or a Mike Johnson or even a Chip Banks having us compete at PLAYOFF level not this dog-shoot. We didn't have to pay Reggie Camp or Sam Clancy anywhere near what Corey Williams and Shaun Smith are making. I'll bet our 3-4 DEs (Clancy & Camp) had more sacks under Marty than this crap. Big Daddy Hairston played better too and he was as old as Willie is. Our defense ranked #1 in the CONFERENCE then. It's how you win 12 games in 1 season. This is the exact opposite and you guys are arguing it's wonderful.

- Tom F. ("Aw shucks" doesn't work with me. Character and HUNGRY football players do. Get me a Mike Johnson, Clay Matthews, Thane Gash anyday. I miss players like that here)

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Fluges, no need to accuse me of not reading your messages. I'm reading every word. I know you said you weren't blaming him for injuries, but you follow something like "I'm not BLAMING him for injuries " with a comment like "The injury isn't Phil's fault but overlooking the RISK is." Every player that steps onto the field have the risk of being injured. Sure, some older players have greater risk, but players in their prime should be just fine, right? Well I think we've proven that wrong here in Cleveland. The only way to avoid the risk of injuries is to not bring in any players at all. Was there an obvious risk with Steinbach? Baxter? Bentley? No, these were tough players in their prime who hadn't missed any significant time. Then the Cleveland curse took them out.

 

I see you complaining about Savage's inability to bring players in. . . Savage brought in Lance Moore, Romeo makes the decision to cut him. Wimbley was highly ranked in the first draft, nobody thought it was a bad pick. Same with Edwards. Nobody questioned those picks when they happend. But once Romeo gets a hold of them, then all bets are off.

 

You're have a problem with the players he drafts, but I am happy with the players he gets later in the draft, including Jerome Harrison, Lawrence Vickers, Eric Wright, Brandon McDonald, Syndric Steptoe, Alex Hall, Beau Bell, Martin Rucker. And even those few undrafted gems, like Cribbs, Ali, Lance Moore.

 

I'll match his drafts up to any other teams' draft. I think he's doing a fine job, and only getting better.

 

And JADBF hit the nail on the head. We haven't even been close to a salary cap purge since Savage got here. He's managing the money like a champion, so it's hard for me to agree that he's wasting money like you feel he is.

 

And also don't accuse me of being 'happy' with the 3-6 record. I'm supportive of Savage, not the coaching. I think the talent is here (not enough yet, but it's getting better each year). I don't think the Coaching is doing us any favors.

 

I really can't discuss this with you. You accuse me of being a Savage homer. Ok, fine, it's true. I like Savage BECAUSE I think he's doing a good job. But you're the polar opposite. Your hatred of Savage is blinding you to the successes he has had here. . . or maybe you hate Savage BECAUSE you think he's doing a bad job. It's a difference of opinion, and we're not going to agree on it, so there's no real need for us to go on about it.

 

My opinion, he's doing a good job, and getting better. He addresses the primary areas of need each offseason. He can't do it all at once. He started with a blank slate (how many of the players from Butch Davis' drafts are still even playing in the NFL?), so it takes time, and he's making progress. . . in SPITE of Romeo's inability to coach up players and to use the talent he has.

 

It's also my opinion that if you got rid of Savage, it would be a monumental mistake, setting the organization back to 1999 all over again.

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And one more thing. . . yes, Ngata was available when Savage took Wimbley. But after year 1 nobody was questioning that decision, as Wimbley was a beast. It's easy to look back now and say, yeah, we should have taken Ngata. But who is to say that Ngata under Crennel wouldn't have been a bust? No way to know, really.

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Guest Masters
When looking at that list of FA signings, on the D side, that CLE is running a 3-4. Guys that can play NT or DE in the 3-4 don't grow on trees. There are only 3 teams in the NFL that run the 3-4 with great success (w/ SD falling off). The other 2 teams, PIT and NE have been running that D for 8 or more years.

 

NE ran a 3-4 and they drafted Vince Wilfork to provide a strong apex.

 

Already running it when they took him and drafted before Phil was here. Having a good foundation as a team and coach does wonders.

 

Pitt runs a 3-4 and they drafted Casey Hampton with Jason Hoke as their backup while we're thinking of excuses that there's not enough good football players in America for the Cleveland Browns to find them too. Masters, I think you're a VERY insightful fan that I enjoy reading but look at the length you're going to in order to be positive about Savage. It's year #4 and ARE we winning? If NOT, why in God's blazes did Opie give RAC a raise? And because Opie agrees with you that there are NO MORE good LBers in America - we'd rather give Andra Davis a raise and pretend our Wali Rainer clone (Jackson) is good enough for a 3-4. We haven't been at the draft for just 1 draft - this was the 4th one and whjat LBer impresses you from a defense predicated by the play of the LBers?

 

Hampton already in PIT before Phil. He did miss finding Chris Hoke as UDFA. CLE was a winning team last year. People can say what they want about the schedule, but teams in the NFL don't win 10 games w/ no talent. They don't hang in games or take double diget leads into the 4th quarter of games by accident either. That is failure on the coach. Jackson is a good lb, but he really is the weak ILB in a 3-4. A solid strong ILB is missing. Davis didn't get a raise. He got a pay cut in the offseason. His deal was redone and he'll be a FA after this year. I am by no means saying Phil hasn't had failures. But the performance on the field, or lack there of is a bit tough to pin on Phil. (thanks for the compliment too by the way)

 

FYI, SD drafted a kid out of Northwestern to play NT and he's done pretty well. Luis Castillo. He was available when we were drafting.

 

Keep in mind he was a late 1st rounder and a shock when he was taken there. This is the guy coming out of college that got busted for steriods at the combine. That draft CLE took Edwards at #3. While I would say Phil should have taken Merriman and wanted him there. But at that time, CLE had needs in every area on the team. That was Phil's first year in CLE.

 

Phil Savage has been PUSHING for this 3-4 since he got here. RAC ran a 4-3 when he was a DC for us and when he FIRST went back to NE they were using a 4-3 with Ted Johnson playing MLB. Injuries up front made them go to a 3-4 if you remember when they lost a few guys on their dline rotation. They had enough talent to do it.

 

Phil did not push the 3-4 when he got to CLE. RAC made that choice as HC. HC decide schemes, not GMs. RAC was under Palmer that one year here, coming to a team running the 4-3 already. With the success he had here that year as DC w/ a 4-3, I don't know why he doesn't prefer it. Every where else he was though as DC was a 3-4 or a hybrid. Even NE at that time was a hybrid.

 

Ted Bruschi AND Mike Vrabel weren't LBers in college but they had the TALENT, physical tools, football smarts/instincts to be naturals. Here's the gems NE drafted on their front dline:

Willie McGinest, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymore, Ty Warren, Jarvis Green. They've had a free agent like Ted Washington before he became a senior citizen. When Willie left they got Adalius Thomas and drafted Mayo at LBer. That's outrageously good. They WON Superbowls with the WRs they drafted Givens & Branch and haven't won a SB when they upgraded to Moss. I always say - there's somethign about a player setting out to PROVE his value vrs a player who's value that has already been determined. Branch & Givens haven't done a thing since they got their dream salaries.

 

They were undersized DE in college. No different than Wimbley, Lawson, Kiwanuku, Merriman, etc. Those FA's you mention chose NE because they were SB contenders. It goes a long way. You are right, they won SBs with no WRs. But that credit belongs to Brady, Weiss, and most of all BB. You pull BB out of there, I am not sure they are the perenial winner they are now. Look at Indy, they only changed coaches, not GMs, then they win every year.

 

Haloti Ngata was available when we drafted Wimbley. He's a BIG 2 gapper type that could play NT.

 

There are no guarantees Ngata has the same success as a NT (there were question by scouts if he could play NT, SF passed him up too). Just as there are no guarantees Wimbley wouldn't be better under a different HC.

 

There's ALOT of good DEs in the league. Kyle Vanden Bosch here in Nashville is as good as they get. You're dodging the issue that Corey Williams is justifying his inflated salary. There was NO pass rush on Thursday Night and when you have more offsides penalties than sacks when you occupy millions of dollars from our cap - you're screwing us.

 

Keep in mind Williams contract is like DAs. He can be gone after this year w/ little cap impact. He was certainly a risk. There are no guarantees Vanden Bosch does any better in a 3-4.

Folks, what's with the pampers for Phil Savage and his choices?

 

Are ya REALLY THIS pumped about 3-6?

 

I've never seen so many excuses for junior achievement in all my life. You LIKE this? God bless ya! Not me. I saw REAL defensive football in Cleveland throughout the 80s to accept this as - as good as it gets. Not even close. I feel bad for you guys that NEVER got to see a Clay Matthews or a Mike Johnson or even a Chip Banks having us compete at PLAYOFF level not this dog-shoot. We didn't have to pay Reggie Camp or Sam Clancy anywhere near what Corey Williams and Shaun Smith are making. I'll bet our 3-4 DEs (Clancy & Camp) had more sacks under Marty than this crap. Big Daddy Hairston played better too and he was as old as Willie is. Our defense ranked #1 in the CONFERENCE then. It's how you win 12 games in 1 season. This is the exact opposite and you guys are arguing it's wonderful.

- Tom F. ("Aw shucks" doesn't work with me. Character and HUNGRY football players do. Get me a Mike Johnson, Clay Matthews, Thane Gash anyday. I miss players like that here)

 

Phil is not beyond any blame, by no means. But changing front office and HC every 2-4 years isn't exactly a winning formula for any organization, no matter the sport. I just think at this point in CLE you start with changing only the HC and see what happens. Problems with losing leads and losing close games comes down to coaches. GMs can only supply players. I share your frustrations and fully conceed Phil has had mistakes. But it's not like he has blunders on a grand magnitude in the scheme of the NFL. This isn't Butch Davis here.

 

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My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 .....Flugs....I'd really like to know your top 5 gm's and top 5 teams....can you share? I want to do a comparison....is polian in your top 5 as gm? give me 5

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My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 .....Flugs....I'd really like to know your top 5 gm's and top 5 teams....can you share? I want to do a comparison....is polian in your top 5 as gm? give me 5

 

You cannot call 2006 draft a bad draft. I would be as bold to say that may turn out to be one of Clevelands best drafts ever. Time will tell but 2 years later its still looking pretty damn good.

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Guest Masters

In theory Savages drafts have gotten better each year.

 

2005 - two starters in Pool and Edwards

2006 - three starters in Wimbley, Jackson, Vickers (plus Harrison who should be playing more)

2007 - Thomas, Quinn, Wright, McDonald (maybe starting to soon), and Steptoe (who at least has shown he can fill in as a returner and still might develop into a #3 WR - remember, the dude was 7th rounder).

2008 - Could make a case that Quinn counts this year, got Rogers, then Bell and Rucker (who may pan out), and Hall.

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My point is absolutley FIRE RAC but if we continue to draft the way we have in 2005, 2006 and 2008 .....Flugs....I'd really like to know your top 5 gm's and top 5 teams....can you share? I want to do a comparison....is polian in your top 5 as gm? give me 5

 

You cannot call 2006 draft a bad draft. I would be as bold to say that may turn out to be one of Clevelands best drafts ever. Time will tell but 2 years later its still looking pretty damn good.

 

Hell Im confusing my years here, I meant the 2007 draft not 2006.

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