Deep Thinking

[Beanpot]

I think they're better with Martinez catching. Love Shoppach but think he'll be worth a decent return in this market. Masterson would be pretty damn decent, if there are any legs to that sort of talk. 6'6" with an awesome sinker and a fastball in the low 90's? Sign me up for some of that please. Especially considering all of the love for his makeup and fearlessness.

 

Not sure if the Mussina reference was just a throwaway or not. Gotta be, right?

 

I'll easily pass on Roberts if the asking price is Fausto and Asdrubal and same with Atkins.

 

Catching depth has Tribe's deep thinkers pondering next move

Friday, November 07, 2008

Paul Hoynes

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Dana Point, Calif.- Mark Shapiro and Chris Antonetti have been thinking about it for a while. Are the Indians a better team with Kelly Shoppach catching and Victor Martinez playing first base or are they better if they trade Shoppach to fill a need and keep Martinez behind the plate?

 

The Indians feel they have enough depth if they have to trade a catcher for an infielder or closer. They have Chris Giminez, Wyatt Toregas and Carlos Santana, the man who has done nothing but hit since being acquired from the Dodgers for Casey Blake, behind Martinez and Shoppach.

 

On some days, Shapiro's feels his best lineup would be Shoppach catching and the versatile Martinez playing first. Then he thinks about a bullpen without an established closer and an infield one player short.

 

"I'd be happy to bring back Kelly and Vic," said Shapiro, Indians general manager. "Kelly was one of the top 10 catchers in the major leagues this year and he played just over a half season. Vic is a pre-eminent switch-hitting run-producing catcher. Great receiver, great game caller, leader on the team when he's healthy."

 

But what if Shapiro can improve the Indians in a meaningful way?

 

One of the things the Indians have been doing since the end of the season is checking the rosters of other teams, studying what they need and where they have a wealth of talent.

 

Boston is looking for catching. Veteran Jason Varitek, the Red Sox captain, is 36 and a free agent. He hit .220 (93-for-423) with 13 homers and 43 RBI.

 

The Red Sox are deep in young pitching. Boston GM Theo Epstein said earlier this week that he has no intention of trading it, but at the same time he made it clear he's looking for catching.

 

Justin Masterson, 23, started and relieved for the Red Sox last season. He had a fine postseason, allowing two earned runs in 9 2/3 innings.

 

While not a closer, he might develop into one or pave the way for closer Jensen Lewis as a set-up man.

 

Antonetti, vice president of baseball operations, does not talk about players on other teams, but said: "our goal and expectation is to have a championship-contending team in 2009. . . we will do what we can to improve the team. There are certain areas of depth that we have on the major-league team. If we can use that to address another need, it's something we have to at least be open to because we can't focus solely on free agency."

 

Boston isn't the only team looking for catching, but it probably matches the Indians' needs better than most in regards to pitching. The Red Sox have a good read on Shoppach since they drafted him and traded him to the Indians as part of the Coco Crisp trade.

 

Shoppach hit .261 (92-for-352) with 27 doubles, 21 homers and 55 RBI. He got the chance to play because Martinez missed much of the season because of surgery on his right elbow.

 

Shapiro and Antonetti left the general managers meetings after talking to all 29 big-league clubs and several agents. They can't bid on free agents until Nov. 14, but they can express interest and discuss length of contracts.

 

Antonetti said it's possible they could make a deal in the near future. Perhaps before the start of the winter meetings Dec. 8 in Las Vegas.

 

"A lot of things need to align for a trade to happen," he said. "We've had substantive conversations with a lot of teams on a lot of different fronts."

 

Here are some of the things that are coming into focus:

 

- In terms of length of contracts to free-agent closers Francisco Rodriguez and Brian Fuentes, the Indians probably are going to fall short.

 

- The same goes for shortstop Rafael Furcal, if they decide that's the way they want to try and solve their infield problem.

 

Said Antonetti, "It's still in the early stages, but we have not heard anything that would be prohibitive to us."

 

- Besides closer and infielder, the Indians need a starting pitcher. If they sign a veteran such as Mike Mussina, providing he still wants to pitch, Shapiro said, "By doing something like that, it makes the decision for us on what kind of closer and the quality of infielder we would be able to add."

 

- Yes, the Indians like Orioles second baseman Brian Roberts, but Shapiro isn't going to give up Fausto Carmona and Asdrubal Cabrera to get him. If the Orioles lower their asking price, Shapiro is willing to talk.

 

- The Indians are one of several teams, including the Tigers, interested in Oakland reliever Huston Street.

 

- If the Indians make a deal with Colorado for third baseman Garrett Atkins, it will cost them a starting pitcher and one of their big-league outfielders.

 

- The Indians can't be particular. If there's a free agent out there with physical problems - Joe Crede (back), Jason Isringhausen (right flexor tendon) - they have to take a look.

 

"We don't have the luxury of picking the first guy on our list and saying this is the guy we're going to get," said Antonetti.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/plaindea ... xml&coll=2

 

Beanpot

[ballpeen]

Just to throw a curve...what about shopping VM??

 

I think you are going to be better with nearly anyone but him behind the plate....though I admit I am old school and don't really care if my catcher can't hit all that much...I prefer a solid defender with a rocket arm. If you can find that in a guy who hits 270...I play that 140 games a year.

 

So....if it stays as is...I like Martinez at 1st...but trading him would bring you the #1 closer type and a prospect or two who could fill the 1st base role.

 

What is the skinny on Haf....is he a recovering steroid freak who won't make it back?? Is his shoulder a pile of noodles or is he expected back??

[Beanpot]

Just to throw a curve...what about shopping VM??

 

I think you are going to be better with nearly anyone but him behind the plate....though I admit I am old school and don't really care if my catcher can't hit all that much...I prefer a solid defender with a rocket arm. If you can find that in a guy who hits 270...I play that 140 games a year.

 

He's a liability defensively, no doubt. Much like Mauer. But his contract is awesome (owed 12.7 over the next two years allowing for options) and I can't see getting equal value for him in a trade.

 

The rocket arm behind the plate thing is nice, but it's not nearly as important as it was back in the day. There are fewer stolen bases and fewer (way fewer) sacrifice attempts than just a decade ago. I much prefer a + bat behind the plate if his defense is even passable.

 

What is the skinny on Haf....is he a recovering steroid freak who won't make it back?? Is his shoulder a pile of noodles or is he expected back??

 

That's the gazillion dollar question. The pile of noodles thing worries me.

 

Beanpot

[CIMO.]

I'd usually agree with the defensive catcher, but not for this Indians team. Unless Hafner comes back to his old form, who else can you count on to bat in the middle of the order and drive in 100 runs? Jhonny? Garko?

 

I'll take Vic behind the plate and I'll take his .300 hitting, 25 homers and 100 RBI. Not to mention everyone in the organization raves about his ability to handle his pitchers, with so many young guys on our staff it's nice having a guy like Vic as that stabilizing influence. Fausto especially seemed to benefit from him in 2007, who knows how the injury affected him last year.

 

I've always liked Shoppach, but he's one of the guys I wouldn't even hesitate to trade if we get a good offer.

[Earle]

if were going to keep Martinez we will need Shoppach. Martinez is always hurt

[ballpeen]

Hard to argue with that Cimo.

 

I still keep a better catcher behind the plate.

 

I think part of the raving about how VM handles the staff is because that is all they can tout.

 

I understand we won't trade him.....so I put him at first and leave him there, or just keep him as DH.

[Beanpot]

Just to throw a curve...what about shopping VM??

 

Here's a guy (from MVN) who brings up the same subject:

 

The Cleveland Indians have the best depth in baseball at the catcher position

The Indians have five catchers who could play minor to significant time at the catcher position in the majors over the next two seasons. Victor Martinez and Kelly Shoppach are at the top of the list, with superstar-in-wait Carlos Santana and AAA catchers Wyatt Toregas and Chris Gimenez coming up through the system.

 

What's to say about Victor Martinez? When healthy, he can easily make a case for being one of the top catchers in the league. I don't have to spell out his offensive talents. He's a middle-of-the-order juggernaut, who's good for 20 homers and over 100 RBI. Defensively, nobody has worked harder over the past three years to transform from a below average catcher to something much better than average in both calling a game and throwing out runners. He still has a questionable arm, but with better planning and footwork, has begun throwing runners out. Victor Martinez also brings several intangibles to the table that can't be measured here. There's no doubt that VMart has become the clubhouse leader.

 

Kelly Shoppach started off as just another name in the Andy Marte for Coco Crisp deal. The funny thing about Shoppach was that he was a top five prospect for the Sox at the time of the trade. Boston didn't see the need in having a catching prospect so ready for the majors with Jason Varitek manning the position with the big league club, so he was an easy throw in to get the deal done (ironic that the Indians were in a similar position with VMart at the time, and the Sox are now one of the teams likely to call on the Indians for a catcher).

 

Shoppach has always shown better-than-average leadership skills in calling a game, an above-average arm, and has good footwork behind the dish. That's what made him a top prospect for Boston. No, Shoppach isn't likely to turn into a .300 hitter any time soon, but he has always shown better-than-average power when he's been given opportunity to swing the bat. He hit 21 dingers in only 352 at bats last year for the Indians when Martinez went down with injury. Sure, he's always struck out a bit too much, but along with his power numbers in the minors, Shoppach seems to have 30-40 home runs-a-year written all over him if given the at bats. He's most certainly a commodity not many teams have as a starter, let alone as a backup.

 

The Indians also have two guys that will be playing in Columbus who could both provide solid backstop skills in the short term should the Indians need it. Wyatt Toregas has above average defensive skills. He's one of those tenacious guys that could become a lifelong backup, and could start in spots. Chris Gimenez may be slightly higher up on the charts than Toregas offensively, but is certainly less as a defensive player. Gimenez will likely find himself as a utility guy somewhere, as he can play both third, first and the outfield as well.

 

The guy that everybody is waiting for is Carlos Santana (how long until we are sick of hearing guitar references every time someone outside Cleveland mentions his name). Santana was the guy that the Indians stole away from the Dodgers in the Casey Blake deal. Santana has one of those seasons in the minors that legends are made from. Santana hit .326 with 21 homers and 117 RBI for the season, walked 89 times with only 86 K's, and an impressive .999 OPS. His defense is lacking, but all the scouts project him to become an adequate catcher at the very least. Think Victor Martinez. He's likely more than a year away from playing in the majors, but he's certainly the future of the position.

 

Victor Martinez will certainly bring in a bigger yield than Kelly Shoppach

 

I know there are some that would say that Kelly Shoppach's at a sell high right now, and will bring in more than Martinez. First of all, Shoppach is at a sell high, but VMart certainly will bring in a much bigger piece of the pie, even after his injury plagued 2008 season.

 

Shoppach alone will likely give the Indians one star-quality player in return (of course, after the Blake deal, you never know). That player would likely be either a top prospect (Justin Masterson from Boston has been a rumored target) or a ready-to-play major leaguer. Victor Martinez would most certainly give the Indians a deal similar to the one that they made with the Brewers when they acquired Matt LaPorta and Michael Brantley. The difference with a deal like Martinez would have to be that the Indians would acquire both major league ready help, as well as some prospects.

 

I have to admit now that I wouldn't likely ever make a deal involving Victor Martinez at this point. I wouldn't be making any calls of any kind involving the catcher. Of course, if a deal came along that knocked my socks off, I'd have to consider it if I were Mark Shapiro.

 

Of course, I can't begin to count the ways why not to make the deal.

 

Even though it's not entirely unreasonable to think that the Indians can't replace Victor Martinez behind the plate as both a catcher and a leader. Obviously, there would be a drop off offensively in several ways. Shoppach is a classic #5 or below hitter, while VMart can fill in the holes anywhere from 2nd to 5th in the order. Martinez has also been one of the most clutch hitters in baseball over the past five seasons.

 

I've heard some folks make the argument about Martinez turning 30, and that being the beginning of the end for many catchers. I actually don't disagree with that line of thinking for most catchers, but 30 being the 'Children of the Corn" number for catchers is a bit of a myth at this point. With catchers such as Ivan Rodriguez, Jorge Posada and Mike Piazza being effective long after they turned 30, it's hard to think that a guy like Martinez wouldn't be able to continue being productive for the next several years.

 

It becomes even less of a factor when you consider the fact that Shoppach will turn 29 in April.

 

At the end of the day, I wouldn't NOT look at any deal. Shoppach would be the guy I would shop around. If someone called me up and asked for VMart, I certainly would listen. Who knows what rewards a bigger deal could reap.

 

http://mvn.com/tribereport/2008/11/sunday-...r-martinez.html

 

Beanpot

[ballpeen]

Interesting read.

[ballpeen]

It depends how Hafner really is.....

 

I think we have enough pop in the line-up.....and Sizemore is to the point in his career he needs to drop to the 3 hole.

 

he would be a 115 RBI guy if he had people on in front of him and he was told to hit for more power....his avg might drop some, but his power numbers would be pretty good if he felt that was the role he had to fill. he is already hitting 20 bombs in the leadoff role...and that is a spot for at least 1 at bat....the first....you are tying to make the pitcher throw some pitches....so he is taking some pitches. You never want to start a game with a 1-2 pitch out....you want to run it at least 3 pitches...ideally 5-7...or more.

 

 

We have some good, young prospects....LaPorta looks like a top guy.....Hodges a step below....both could develop into 25 homer guys....and face it, now that steroids is out of the mix, there just aren't that many 40-50 homers guys like we have seen the last 20 years....think back to before the the mid 80's...25-30 dingers was a power number.

[Beanpot]

I think we have enough pop in the line-up.....and Sizemore is to the point in his career he needs to drop to the 3 hole.

 

he would be a 115 RBI guy if he had people on in front of him and he was told to hit for more power....his avg might drop some, but his power numbers would be pretty good if he felt that was the role he had to fill. he is already hitting 20 bombs in the leadoff role...and that is a spot for at least 1 at bat....the first....you are tying to make the pitcher throw some pitches....so he is taking some pitches. You never want to start a game with a 1-2 pitch out....you want to run it at least 3 pitches...ideally 5-7...or more.

 

Agreed. Sizemore saw more pitches than any other player in the majors last year (3043/4.08 per at bat) and it'd be nice to see him sit in the three spot and not worry about taking so many pitches.

 

BTW, LaPorta's loooong year has finally come to an end:

 

LaPorta heads home from Venezuela

by Paul Hoynes

Monday November 17, 2008, 2:34 PM

 

Matt LaPorta's long season is finally over.

 

LaPorta, the key player from the Indians point of view in the CC Sabathia trade, has left Caracas in the Venezuelan Winter League after hitting .164 (11-for-67) with three doubles, two homers and 12 RBI. He walked six times and struck out 22 times.

 

The power-hitting outfielder, reportedly, was suffering from the flu. He'd also fouled a pitch off his ankle.

 

The Indians acquired LaPorta, Zach Jackson, Rob Bryson and Michael Brantley from Milwaukee on July 7 for Sabathia. LaPorta was hitting .288 (87-for-302) with 23 doubles, two triples, 20 homers and 66 RBI in 84 games at Class AA Huntsville at the time of the deal.

 

LaPorta played in the Futures Game at Yankee Stadium and for Team USA in the Olympics in Bejing, China. He was beaned in the Olympics, but returned to help Team USA win a bronze medal.

 

The Indians, following the trade, sent LaPorta to Class AA Akron. He hit .233 (14-for-60) with two homers and eight RBI. In the Eastern League playoffs, he hit .320 (8-for-25) with three homers and six RBI.

 

LaPorta will report with the Indians big-league club to spring training in Goodyear, Ariz., in February. He's expected to open the 2009 season in Class AAA Columbus outfield.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2...from_venez.html

 

Beanpot

[ballpeen]

Good read.

 

I am not real big on those winter leagues, especially in todays era.

 

Years ago guys might have needed extra work, but todays top players work at the game nearly every day of the year.

 

Let the kid come home, relax a bit to recover, then get back at it in mid Dec to ready himself for the season wherever it might be.

[DieselPusher]

Good read.

 

I am not real big on those winter leagues, especially in todays era.

 

Years ago guys might have needed extra work, but todays top players work at the game nearly every day of the year.

 

Let the kid come home, relax a bit to recover, then get back at it in mid Dec to ready himself for the season wherever it might be.

 

 

Agreed

 

Playing these many games out of the States has got to be more mentally taxing than playing winter ball in AZ.

[SoCalBrownsFan]

This is a good thread, good articles and discussions.

 

Grady DOES need to drop to the 3 hole.

 

I don't want to jinx him, but I have a bad feeling we may never see Hafner put up huge numbers like in the past. I have a feeling he could have nagging injuries the remainder of his career, and he hasn't exactly gotten better since he signed his contract extension. I hope I am wrong about him, but if someone wants to trade for him, I would be listening.

[ballpeen]

You aren't jinxing him.

 

If someone offered almost anything for Hafner, I think we would jump at the chance. He is pretty much done IMO.....I think the guy was a juicer and last year was his detox letdown....we will see what we have left.

 

The three spot is perfect for Grady....you want your best power/average option hitting there. Hitting there, the guy could have MVP type seasons.

 

He is our leadoff hitter, but he isn't a classic leadoff hitter in the form of Lofton as an example. Grady can bunt and run, but not to the tune of 25 bunt hits a year...and why would you want to do that with a guy who can drive the ball??

 

I am not sure who else we have who could fit the leadoff role....maybe you guys know, but if I was in charge, finding one would be my top priority because not only would I improve that position in the order, I have just added 40 RBI and 20 more runs in the middle of the order by dropping Sizemore.

 

Now instead of Cabrerra or some other #2 hitter protecting Sizemore, you have VM hitting behind him. One of those two is going to get some pitches to hit.