Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I don't mean to throw a wet blanket on this freaking piss and moan session, but you may want to dial it down a notch... you know, just a notch. I'm reading all of these threads and can't, for the life of me, figure out what the hell you're so pissed off about. Virtually every interested party has been telling you that this team is not very good. It's going to struggle to win games. And, now you're pissed off because you disagreed with them? Now wait a minute. You thought the Browns were "X" good. It turns out they're "Y" good. And you're pissed at them? Why, because you don't know a lousy football team when you see one? For crying out loud, your beloved Browns are undergoing a complete overhaul. Relax. You're looking at a team with 3 or 4 legitimate starters, 2 or 3 developmental projects, and 14 or 15 place holders. Good luck. What did you expect exactly? Everyone in here, that I saw anyway, pegged the upside of this season at 8-8/9-7. And you guys are the fans! I told you a week ago, this team will have a hell of a time winning in the early part of the season. They'll be lucky to hit the bye week with 3 wins. If EVERYTHING goes right they could end up 7-9 or 8-8. Well, what you saw yesterday is what "praying for 8-8" looks like. The offense is simplified. The play calling is boring. They're having problems executing the base offense. Offensive adjustments are almost impossible. The line play is tentative. The backs are indecisive. And the quarterback has that Sylvester the Cat look after his battles with a kangaroo he presumed to be a mouse. "Yup!" The defense is stretched to it's limit. They can't really adjust away from their base defense. Every time they deviate from the base (let's call those "halftime adjustments"), the defense slows down and huge gashes develop. This is all true. But you don't fix it by changing personnel week 2. You don't fix it by changing personnel this year. You guys have gotten so used to Phil Savage jerking you off by bringing in expensive "talent" from around the league, as if this team was ever only 1 or 2 players away from the next level. They're not. They never were. The fact that the Browns have virtually had a quarterback controversy every year gives you all the false hope that "Well, if the other guy was in there... blah blah blah." No! Not true... never was true. These quick fix artists that have been running this organization have been soft-spined appeasers. They somehow believed that the 2007 team was a good football team. They weren't. They got lucky. They played out of their heads. Whatever you want to call it. Somebody has to change the culture in that building. Somebody has to be willing to tear this shanty of an organization down to the foundation and rebuild it. The Browns need someone who has a vision for the organization, and has no problem standing in front of the media and the fans, and saying "We're making progress," when all evidence points to the contrary. You need someone who is not interested in appeasing anyone. And in case no one has noticed, the Browns might just have that guy. But you've got to slow down. This team has to get better. The 22 guys that are out there have to get better. They have to be on the field, make mistakes, and get better. That mass of prospects, journeymen, and a couple of starters has to develop into 6-10 starters by season's end. They have to get better. They have to fall down, and get back up, and get better. And in case you're wondering, yesterday's game in Denver is what that looks like. The Browns front office has turned over 40% of the roster from a year ago. That's easy. You churn up the bottom end of the roster, bring in a few cast offs, cut loose a few never-gonna-be prospects, and voila, you've got half the roster turned over. It won't happen again next year. Oh they may turn over 20-30% of the roster. There's plenty of dead weight. But the change will be far more strategic. You will see an influx of young linebackers, young receivers, young running backs, young defensive backs, and quite possibly a new quarterback. Relax. This is who the Browns are right now. Relax. It will get better. This year even. It will get better. The last decade has been filled with guys trying to turn this team into a winner without going through this. It's time for that to be over. It's like trying to lose weight without hitting the gym. Oh you might be able to Atkins your way to 20 or 30 lbs... but you're not really fit, are you? Relax. And be glad you have a guy in charge that is willing to take the heat while this team gets rebuilt the right way. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thanks Jason. Everyone is jumping off the bridge in despair, but they all forget this is basically an expansion team talent wise. It's going to take a few years for Mangini's plan to start paying off on the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammertime Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thats what i was gonna say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Jason, I understand what you are saying and appreciate the level headedness you bring to this monday. But the team that played yesterday will be 0-8 at the bye week. I have been saying that 7-9 or 8-8 would be the best this team could do this year. And I wasn't one of those here guaranteeing a win over Denver this week. but really? 27-6? A defense that still can't do the basic things like TACKLE? I mean I understood in week 1 it was Peterson. But the tackling on some of the runs in this game was terrible. I believe Denver is a poor team that's in just the same situation we are. And they waxed us like we weren't even there. I guess what I am saying is. I didn't expect them to be good. I just didn't expect them to be THAT bad. Denver is a poor team that happens to be 2-0. For what that's worth. Let me just offer this. Try to stop looking at this team as a static entity. The team you see in September isn't likely to be the team you see in November. Oh, it'll be the same guys, just not quite the same team. That's what I'm talking about when I say relax and slow down. Don't get me wrong, no one will confuse the Week 12 Browns with the 72 Dolphins, but it will look appreciably different. Think of it this way, you can teach a teach a toddler fractions, but he's still going to shit his pants. Just slow down a little. They'll get better. But they have to get better honestly. They're not out there to steal wins, or play over their heads. They're trying to get better the right way. And it takes time. The fanbase just has to get over they're excitement, and the resultant disappointment. Watch with a little love, and appreciate them getting better for a reason, as opposed to looking better and not being better. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gips Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Not so much pissed here as disturbed by daboll's/mangini's basic straight forward offensive scheme...with a team this devoid of talent every play needs to be tricky and unexpected this offense can only work with very talented WRs and brute force blocking and running...we have none.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Jason, I understand what you are saying and appreciate the level headedness you bring to this monday. But the team that played yesterday will be 0-8 at the bye week. I have been saying that 7-9 or 8-8 would be the best this team could do this year. And I wasn't one of those here guaranteeing a win over Denver this week. but really? 27-6? A defense that still can't do the basic things like TACKLE? I mean I understood in week 1 it was Peterson. But the tackling on some of the runs in this game was terrible. I believe Denver is a poor team that's in just the same situation we are. And they waxed us like we weren't even there. I guess what I am saying is. I didn't expect them to be good. I just didn't expect them to be THAT bad. It was like 10 or 13 to 6 to start the 4th quarter, it wasn't as bad as the final stat line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosar_For_President Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thanks Jason. Everyone is jumping off the bridge in despair, but they all forget this is basically an expansion team talent wise. It's going to take a few years for Mangini's plan to start paying off on the bottom line. 10 years later...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Not so much pissed here as disturbed by daboll's/mangini's basic straight forward offensive scheme...with a team this devoid of talent every play needs to be tricky and unexpected this offense can only work with very talented WRs and brute force blocking and running...we have none.. Probably will benefit the team more as a whole if they just dredge through the shit and come to learn the base packages. They may be running a watered down vanilla playbook, but they can't even execute THAT, how do you expect trick plays to do anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 10 years later...... Happens when you hire guys like RAC who would struggle to hold a conversation with a 4th grader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemosley01 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Thanks for the post Jason - that explains a lot of why we're seeing 'basic' offense and defense, and it's kind of what I expected was happening - the OC is learning his way, and the players on both sides of the ball are learning as well; plus, we have a lot of guys that just aren't that good. 'But we're 0-2! The season is over'. It was over before the first kickoff. This wasn't a team destined for the playoffs, and 8-8 is just as out of the playoffs as 0-16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Don't get me wrong, no one will confuse the Week 12 Browns with the 72 Dolphins, but it will look appreciably different. yeah because Charlie Quinn will be on the bench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ATENEARS Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I expect a new coach to come and put a staple on things by turning up the tempo, establishing some momentun, and spirit. That game yesterday was winnable. We were down 13-6 after having the Bronco's miss two field goals, allowing us to hang around. We didn't play very well in the game, and I'm not expecting to play every quarter well this season. But damn-it, we had one quarter left and I thought it was time for this coach, this team, this QB, to step up and exhaust themselves and doing everything it takes to gain a win. I am disappointed in our attempt to win that game. In fact, we got killed in this same quarter that I speak of. We weren't playing the Super Bowl champs, we were playing another team in the same position, with a new turned-over team, new coach, and new QB. One team rised up, one folded. Mangini failed, Quinn failed, and this team who they both lead failed. That's un-excusable. Had they scored and took the lead, but ran out of time and the other team had the clock in their favor and just edged them at the wire, I could live with that, and I could wait. But last night, I saw no reason to be patient. Give me a reason once in awhile. Winning helps with the teachings, you must win to sell it all. Last night was a winnable ball game that we probably didn't deserve, but it was there and we sat down ... I'm concerned for everyone on our sideline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Virtually every interested party has been telling you that this team is not very good. It's going to struggle to win games. And, now you're pissed off because you disagreed with them? Now wait a minute. You thought the Browns were "X" good. It turns out they're "Y" good. And you're pissed at them? Why, because you don't know a lousy football team when you see one? I'd say the only team with a worse personnel and coaching situation was the Denver Broncos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adz1987 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Only bad thing about doing it this way, is that 2 of those legitimate starters in Edwards and Cribbs can just up and leave at the end of the season. They want silverware, not a rebuilding project. Which could result in a vicious cycle of rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AdaM Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Only bad thing about doing it this way, is that 2 of those legitimate starters in Edwards and Cribbs can just up and leave at the end of the season. They want silverware, not a rebuilding project. Which could result in a vicious cycle of rebuilding. Cribbs is under contract. And he's not going to do much on offense anyway. As for edwards? Who cares, he's too flaky anyway. We need a ton of draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenby73 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I hear what you're saying J, and it makes sense. Half of us on this board have set it at one point or another. Problem is it never actually happens. You think if you're patient and logical and give it time it will remedy itself. It doesn't. It hasn't. I'm past pulling out my hair. I'm in that dazed, glossy eyed state. I'm wandering as I look for the light at the end of the tunnel. I just posted a topic concerning Mangini that I think highlights where my issue starts. If I can find a path, a direction, I can deal with the bumps in the road. I felt 7-9 would be a great start for this organization myself. But progress is hard to find on the field and that's what the large issue is I think. Not the losses, how we lose. Last week I was quite pleased actually. we held in for a while against a superior team. It looked like they played with heart for 3 quarters. Yesterday..... that was not a good sign. No life. No creativity. Nobody willing to stand up and call a turd a turd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 yeah because Charlie Quinn will be on the bench. I sincerely doubt that Mangini would make a voluntary change at quarterback. He's just not wired that way. Obviously, there's always a chance that Quinn could be injured, particularly if he keeps wandering around back there and second guessing his reads. But I would be surprised if Mangini would make a performance based move at the quarterback spot. There's no good reason to do it. Why? So maybe they go 6-10 instead of 5-11 or 4-12? And you bring in a guy you're probably not going to keep anyway? (Which isn't to say they'd keep Quinn). Even if Anderson is looking like a demonstrably better option than Quinn, he's not getting the $9 million (and the nearly $14 million against the cap - presuming there is one) in 2010. He's just not a $9 million quarterback. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OconRecon Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Agree 100% JJ. It's just we we're hoping it would be one of those quick turn around deals, which happens every year in the NFL to a team or two. It's just now settling in we're not one of those teams this year and it's taking a second to adjust. Call me foolish for hoping for 8 wins, but it's what fans do at the beginning of a season. Hope springs eternal for most fans in most sports at the start of the season. I'll do it again next season too. There will never be a season were I roll in happily hoping for and expecting 4 wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I'd say the only team with a worse personnel and coaching situation was the Denver Broncos. You'd be wrong. Take another look at that Bronco secondary and offensive line. I'm also assuming you haven't taken a good look at the Chiefs and Rams. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adz1987 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Edwards gets too much stick. He's been thrown to by Frye, Anderson and Quinn, yet he's still a top WR talent. We need him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 There's no good reason to do it. Why? So maybe they go 6-10 instead of 5-11 or 4-12? or maybe they go 8-8 rather than 2-14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Masters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 You'd be wrong. Take another look at that Bronco secondary and offensive line. I'm also assuming you haven't taken a good look at the Chiefs and Rams. -jj Not to mention the WRs in DEN. They have two legit starters at wideout. Don't forget OAK. That team isn't very good either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Masters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Only bad thing about doing it this way, is that 2 of those legitimate starters in Edwards and Cribbs can just up and leave at the end of the season. They want silverware, not a rebuilding project. Which could result in a vicious cycle of rebuilding. Cribbs is under contract. If they go uncapped next year, I think BE's FA is pushed back to 2011, but not 100% sure on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I expect a new coach to come and put a staple on things by turning up the tempo, establishing some momentun, and spirit. That game yesterday was winnable. We were down 13-6 after having the Bronco's miss two field goals, allowing us to hang around. We didn't play very well in the game, and I'm not expecting to play every quarter well this season. But damn-it, we had one quarter left and I thought it was time for this coach, this team, this QB, to step up and exhaust themselves and doing everything it takes to gain a win. I am disappointed in our attempt to win that game. In fact, we got killed in this same quarter that I speak of. We weren't playing the Super Bowl champs, we were playing another team in the same position, with a new turned-over team, new coach, and new QB. One team rised up, one folded. Mangini failed, Quinn failed, and this team who they both lead failed. That's un-excusable. Had they scored and took the lead, but ran out of time and the other team had the clock in their favor and just edged them at the wire, I could live with that, and I could wait. But last night, I saw no reason to be patient. Give me a reason once in awhile. Winning helps with the teachings, you must win to sell it all. Last night was a winnable ball game that we probably didn't deserve, but it was there and we sat down ... I'm concerned for everyone on our sideline. There isn't an excuse for it. It sucks. You're actually one of those guys that has it right. "Just give me something." Right? They just couldn't get it together yesterday. There's just too much thinking and not enough playing out there. By the way, when you look at the two defenses... How big of a signing was Brian Dawkins? The fact that you have a guy that good, that smart, has really eased the transition on that Denver defense. They missed fits, they were scattershot throughout the first half. But there's Dawkins, making a tackle, knocking down a pass, cleaning up the messes. He's a freakin' pro. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopaji Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 The BEST post in history! I don't expect to see much improvement until the second half of the season anyways. And I expect to see about 8-10 new starters next year offensively and defensively combined. All I wanted out of this year is to not get embarressed but it keeps happening. I'm mostly upset about what has been happening here since 99. The J-E-T-S!! Are skating through the schedule using the team Mangini built and he is stuck with 10 years of mistakes to fix. I think that's why he's not going crazy on the sideline, because it's a 16 game scrimmage for him. He's evaluating talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawgTracker Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Jason, Great post. I predicted a record of 6-10 with steady improvement. Right now five wins might not happen but the improvement is really the key. I think Mangini and Kokinis understand what needs to be done. It could take two years before we really have a playoff team (two more draft and FA periods) but I will hope for sooner than that. As Mangini said in his press conference, the problems are correctable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumbergh Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Not to mention the WRs in DEN. They have two legit starters at wideout. Don't forget OAK. That team isn't very good either. I think BQ Nation has settled on their super bowl matchup for this season. MINNESOTA VS DENVER FOR THE WHOLE ENCHILADA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Masters Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I think BQ Nation has settled on their super bowl matchup for this season. MINNESOTA VS DENVER FOR THE WHOLE ENCHILADA Simply saying DEN has talent at both WR spots. DEN won't even make the playoffs and likely won't finish above .500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason J Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 or maybe they go 8-8 rather than 2-14 Even if that were possible (let's just call it "highly unlikely") to what end? So you can release him in January? Derek Anderson is a boon to a bad team and a liability to a good one. It's like trying to put your basketball team over the top by adding Jason Kapono. You look like a genius some nights. But, over the long haul, it doesn't actually improve your team. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Good post. Everything you've said rings true. I don't think the front office is naive about the talent level. And while I'm no Romeo fan, its starting to look like his hands were tied by Phil. I don't mean to throw a wet blanket on this freaking piss and moan session, but you may want to dial it down a notch... you know, just a notch. I'm reading all of these threads and can't, for the life of me, figure out what the hell you're so pissed off about. Virtually every interested party has been telling you that this team is not very good. It's going to struggle to win games. And, now you're pissed off because you disagreed with them? Now wait a minute. You thought the Browns were "X" good. It turns out they're "Y" good. And you're pissed at them? Why, because you don't know a lousy football team when you see one? For crying out loud, your beloved Browns are undergoing a complete overhaul. Relax. You're looking at a team with 3 or 4 legitimate starters, 2 or 3 developmental projects, and 14 or 15 place holders. Good luck. What did you expect exactly? Everyone in here, that I saw anyway, pegged the upside of this season at 8-8/9-7. And you guys are the fans! I told you a week ago, this team will have a hell of a time winning in the early part of the season. They'll be lucky to hit the bye week with 3 wins. If EVERYTHING goes right they could end up 7-9 or 8-8. Well, what you saw yesterday is what "praying for 8-8" looks like. The offense is simplified. The play calling is boring. They're having problems executing the base offense. Offensive adjustments are almost impossible. The line play is tentative. The backs are indecisive. And the quarterback has that Sylvester the Cat look after his battles with a kangaroo he presumed to be a mouse. "Yup!" The defense is stretched to it's limit. They can't really adjust away from their base defense. Every time they deviate from the base (let's call those "halftime adjustments"), the defense slows down and huge gashes develop. This is all true. But you don't fix it by changing personnel week 2. You don't fix it by changing personnel this year. You guys have gotten so used to Phil Savage jerking you off by bringing in expensive "talent" from around the league, as if this team was ever only 1 or 2 players away from the next level. They're not. They never were. The fact that the Browns have virtually had a quarterback controversy every year gives you all the false hope that "Well, if the other guy was in there... blah blah blah." No! Not true... never was true. These quick fix artists that have been running this organization have been soft-spined appeasers. They somehow believed that the 2007 team was a good football team. They weren't. They got lucky. They played out of their heads. Whatever you want to call it. Somebody has to change the culture in that building. Somebody has to be willing to tear this shanty of an organization down to the foundation and rebuild it. The Browns need someone who has a vision for the organization, and has no problem standing in front of the media and the fans, and saying "We're making progress," when all evidence points to the contrary. You need someone who is not interested in appeasing anyone. And in case no one has noticed, the Browns might just have that guy. But you've got to slow down. This team has to get better. The 22 guys that are out there have to get better. They have to be on the field, make mistakes, and get better. That mass of prospects, journeymen, and a couple of starters has to develop into 6-10 starters by season's end. They have to get better. They have to fall down, and get back up, and get better. And in case you're wondering, yesterday's game in Denver is what that looks like. The Browns front office has turned over 40% of the roster from a year ago. That's easy. You churn up the bottom end of the roster, bring in a few cast offs, cut loose a few never-gonna-be prospects, and voila, you've got half the roster turned over. It won't happen again next year. Oh they may turn over 20-30% of the roster. There's plenty of dead weight. But the change will be far more strategic. You will see an influx of young linebackers, young receivers, young running backs, young defensive backs, and quite possibly a new quarterback. Relax. This is who the Browns are right now. Relax. It will get better. This year even. It will get better. The last decade has been filled with guys trying to turn this team into a winner without going through this. It's time for that to be over. It's like trying to lose weight without hitting the gym. Oh you might be able to Atkins your way to 20 or 30 lbs... but you're not really fit, are you? Relax. And be glad you have a guy in charge that is willing to take the heat while this team gets rebuilt the right way. -jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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