Let the DA vs. Quinn debate begin

[Guest Masters]

As I know the debate is only going to start to go even more, I am gonna put this up now as an apple to apple.

 

DA in his first NFL start (which I will acknowlede was againt PIT in 2006):

 

21/37, 276 yards, 7.5 Y/A, 1 TD, 1 INT, 0 sacks, 1 FUM, 1 FUM Lost

 

CLE scored a total of 7 points.

 

BQ in his first NFL start (against DEN in 2008):

 

23/35, 239 yards, 6.9 Y/A, 2 TD, 0 INT, 0 sacks, 0 FUM, 0 FUM lost

 

CLE scored a total of 30 points.

[PB&J]

There is no debate. The defense lost that game, and this is Quinn's team.

[Koa]

I've seen all I needed to see. This is Quinn's team. All I hope for is a 2nd round offer from the Vikings for DA.

[sisky fringo]

then what, draft a #2 qb?

roll with just he and dorsey? it goes w/out saying this league requires a lot from that position.

if DA can stomach it, i'd like to see them both on this team for as long as possible. DA would make a great #2.

bird in the hand........

[OconRecon]

I'd say,

 

QB#1 is Quinn

QB#2 is Dorsey

QB#3 is Cribbs

 

Here's the NFL Network post-game analysis video. They thought he did everything right.

[mole644]

then what, draft a #2 qb?

roll with just he and dorsey? it goes w/out saying this league requires a lot from that position.

if DA can stomach it, i'd like to see them both on this team for as long as possible. DA would make a great #2.

bird in the hand........

A great number 2 making number 1 salary? Ain't goina happen.

[DieHardBrownsFan]

Quinn is the future of the Browns. DA will be traded for sure. Keep Dorsey as backup. Lets face it, we have ZERO chance for playoffs so just use the rest of the season as training for our franchise QB.

[sisky fringo]

then what, draft a #2 qb?

roll with just he and dorsey? it goes w/out saying this league requires a lot from that position.

if DA can stomach it, i'd like to see them both on this team for as long as possible. DA would make a great #2.

bird in the hand........

A great number 2 making number 1 salary? Ain't goina happen.

a great #2?

besides, he's already bought and paid for through 2010 to the tune of 10 mil.....what's the problem?

why spend a pick on one or invest the time in someone new? it should come down to if anyone offers anything for him. like i said, if he can stomach being 2nd fiddle.......

 

and ocon recon, i remember your view on QB's. and i still can't believe after all we've witnessed thus far regarding the QB position you're still willing to mortgage an 800 million dollar franchise by being a tight ass. ridiculoid. but hey, as long as the o-line is sound it'd be a-okay, right?

QB#1 is Quinn

QB#2 is Dorsey

QB#3 is Cribbs

yikes!!

[Roy.E.Munson]

then what, draft a #2 qb?

roll with just he and dorsey? it goes w/out saying this league requires a lot from that position.

if DA can stomach it, i'd like to see them both on this team for as long as possible. DA would make a great #2.

bird in the hand........

A great number 2 making number 1 salary? Ain't goina happen.

a great #2?

besides, he's already bought and paid for through 2010. what's the problem?

until you burn off that 10 mil guaranteed they shouldn't spend a pick on one or invest the time in someone new so it should come down to if anyone offers anything for him. like i said, if he can stomach being 2nd fiddle.......

 

Paying a backup 26 mil is dumber than hell!

 

They have to get rid of him so that that cap room can go to a starting player that we draft!

[Guest Masters]

then what, draft a #2 qb?

roll with just he and dorsey? it goes w/out saying this league requires a lot from that position.

if DA can stomach it, i'd like to see them both on this team for as long as possible. DA would make a great #2.

bird in the hand........

A great number 2 making number 1 salary? Ain't goina happen.

a great #2?

besides, he's already bought and paid for through 2010. what's the problem?

until you burn off that 10 mil guaranteed they shouldn't spend a pick on one or invest the time in someone new so it should come down to if anyone offers anything for him. like i said, if he can stomach being 2nd fiddle.......

 

He is not paid for threw 2010. DA is owed a roster bonus of 5M in March. Basically 8M was for this year alone.

 

The Browns gave Anderson a $7 million signing bonus this year, plus a salary of $950,000 in 2008. In 2009, he's due a roster bonus of $5 million if he makes the team, with a salary of $1.45 million. In 2010, he's due a roster bonus of $2 million if he makes the team, plus $7.45 million in salary. So Anderson makes $7.95 million this year, and if the Browns cut him after the season, the contract will be null and void and the team won't owe him anything. The only remnant of the deal with be a $4.67-million salary-cap charge on the Browns' 2009 cap, the amount of the pro-rated signing bonus assigned to the last two years of the contract for accounting purposes. "

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/w ... ek5/4.html

 

That is a lot if he is gonna be the back up. If he'll redo the deal, then you keep him.

[sisky fringo]

5 mil for a backup?

yup, 5 mil for a backup. if we don't pay it someone has to. show me someone willing to do that and we have a conversation. until then, it's calculated into the books and accounted for. there's no room in this league for pinching pennies over a 3rd year guy with 24 starts. it is what it is. let the accountants worry about the bottom line.

[sisky fringo]

masters the 7 mil bonus was basically back pay for the 10-6 season-it's in the rear view now. you think they would rather take that cap hit and start looking? i think it comes down to how successfully they can shop him.

[sisky fringo]

there's still a cap hit--what's the difference? they committed to the 10 mil guaranteed, whether it's on the front or the back, regardless of how the contract is layed out.

[Guest Masters]

5 mil for a backup?

yup, 5 mil for a backup. if we don't pay it someone has to. show me someone willing to do that and we have a conversation. until then, it's calculated into the books and accounted for. there's no room in this league for pinching pennies over a 3rd year guy with 24 starts. it is what it is. let the accountants worry about the bottom line.

 

The hit against the cap next year, and only next year, is a little less than 5M if CLE cuts him before the bonus of 5M is due in March. You keep him, CLE is basically paying him 6.5M to be a back up (5M roster bonus and 1.45M in salary). That is easily two new guys on D next year. You can get an vet back up for less.

 

As you noted, it all comes down to if CLE can trade him for something.

[Roy.E.Munson]

yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higher

[Guest Masters]

NOT FOR THE 5 Million there isn't!!!!!!! The cap hit is breaking down the original bonus over the life of the contract, instead of having had it count against us in the first year....

 

These are those things the "accountants" already understand, and why everyone but you seems to understand why Anderson is unlikely to be kept if Quinn continues to play solidly....

 

Nor for the 7 mil in salary in 2010?

 

BTW did you listen to ANY of the commentators who also say, "there is no way Cleveland can afford to keep both these QBs on the roster"...I guess they don't know anything either?

 

Ding, ding, ding.

 

In a nut shell, read the King article I posted or the one by the guy on Sporting News.

[Guest Masters]

yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higher

 

And of course there is that. But, at least for this year, his big jump can't kick in because he needed to take at least 55% of the snaps. Which can't happen since he started in the 9th game. Which makes you wonder if the delay in starting him was financially based (god I hope not).

[Roy.E.Munson]

yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higher

 

And of course there is that. But, at least for this year, his big jump can't kick in because he needed to take at least 55% of the snaps. Which can't happen since he started in the 9th game. Which makes you wonder if the delay in starting him was financially based (god I hope not).

 

Is it based on snaps or games!... da had alot of 3 and outs! ide say there is still a chance

[Guest Masters]

You explain this cap crap so much better than I do...I barely understand it...and yet I find people who know less every day....

 

Well, in all fairness, I do take from sources that explain it. I just happen to be able to manage to comprehend some of it, sometimes. It's not rocket science, but is sure is a lot of fuzzy math.

 

People just to many times assume they know it and understand it, based on a quick 3 second comment on TV. That only works in the NBA and MLB where they are guaranteed contracts and soft caps.

[Guest Masters]

yep... now that Quinn is playing the salarys is higher

 

And of course there is that. But, at least for this year, his big jump can't kick in because he needed to take at least 55% of the snaps. Which can't happen since he started in the 9th game. Which makes you wonder if the delay in starting him was financially based (god I hope not).

 

Is it based on snaps or games!... da had alot of 3 and outs! ide say there is still a chance

 

It's truly games for that very reason.

 

And JADBF, yeah, we don't even want to go there on if Brady not coming in sooner being about money.

[sisky fringo]

BTW did you listen to ANY of the commentators who also say, "there is no way Cleveland can afford to keep both these QBs on the roster"...I guess they don't know anything either?

hey i forgot about this thread.

 

i read your responses, sounded like you were getting pretty excited there.

 

and no, i didn't listen to ANY commentators who think they know the Browns better than I do..........unless they're from Cleveland.

you talking about the idiots that like to talk about team irrelevance and how many crunches brett favre's wife can do? if so plz don't get me started there, i did once before and it didn't turn out so good.

 

which pundits do you recommend JADBF? hopefully ones with access to the Browns books, of course, cause anything else is just fiction.

 

if Brady gets hurt late this season, is 5 mil (or 6.45 mil) still too steep then?

[sisky fringo]

The hit against the cap next year, and only next year, is a little less than 5M if CLE cuts him before the bonus of 5M is due in March. You keep him, CLE is basically paying him 6.5M to be a back up (5M roster bonus and 1.45M in salary). That is easily two new guys on D next year. You can get an vet back up for less.

 

As you noted, it all comes down to if CLE can trade him for something.

just so i've got this straight, it's proposed that we might trade last years starter to avoid paying a 5 mil roster bonus due in March and be left with just Quinn and Dorsey and try to fill that spot, or we could simply keep him for approx 1.45 mil more? am i missing anything? we keep him we pay it, we trade him we pay it too (just a smidge less) but maybe get something in the trade? maybe. maybe some low garbage picks, that is. i'd rather see them keep him than take some bullshit for him and let their investment go elsewhere. that includes passing on a 3rd rd pick or lower imho.

 

besides, who we really gonna get that will be better than DA for 1.45 mil or less per year? he's turn-key don't forget. 2 years in Chud's system>>i see a lot of value in that. the 5 mil is a wash so really he'd be a great #2 backup with 24(?) starts for them to the tune of 1.5 mil. it still seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

i like the bird in the hand.

the guy was good enough to start last week.

[OconRecon]

My favorite part of Terry Pluto's article today:

 

Q: Will Quinn be any better?

 

A: He has thrown eight passes in the regular season. There is a body of research that shows if a quarterback starts at least 35 games at a BCS school, and completes at least 57 percent of his passes, he tends to have a successful pro career. Quinn had 46 starts at Notre Dame, completing 59.9 percent. For what it's worth, Anderson had 38 starts at Oregon State, completing 50.7 percent.

 

ok, and this one too:

 

Q: Is there one part of Anderson's game that worries you the most?

 

A: Completing only 49.8 of his passes. That ranks 33rd in the NFL. His touch, especially on short throws, has been poor. Here is a disturbing downward trend, a month-by-month look going back to October 2007: 62.4; 59.6; 53.1; 49.6; 49.5 and finally he was 17-of-33 (51.4) in the Baltimore game.

 

 

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/ind ... elf_1.html

[Guest Masters]

The hit against the cap next year, and only next year, is a little less than 5M if CLE cuts him before the bonus of 5M is due in March. You keep him, CLE is basically paying him 6.5M to be a back up (5M roster bonus and 1.45M in salary). That is easily two new guys on D next year. You can get an vet back up for less.

 

As you noted, it all comes down to if CLE can trade him for something.

just so i've got this straight, it's proposed that we might trade last years starter to avoid paying a 5 mil roster bonus due in March and be left with just Quinn and Dorsey and try to fill that spot, or we could simply keep him for approx 1.45 mil more? am i missing anything? we keep him we pay it, we trade him we pay it too (just a smidge less) but maybe get something in the trade? maybe. maybe some low garbage picks, that is. i'd rather see them keep him than take some bullshit for him and let their investment go elsewhere. that includes passing on a 3rd rd pick or lower imho.

 

besides, who we really gonna get that will be better than DA for 1.45 mil or less per year? he's turn-key don't forget. 2 years in Chud's system>>i see a lot of value in that. the 5 mil is a wash so really he'd be a great #2 backup with 24(?) starts for them to the tune of 1.5 mil. it still seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

i like the bird in the hand.

the guy was good enough to start last week.

 

It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.

[cmac12]

I can conceed that DA is not the answer for the Browns. But, I am not willing to say that BQ is the answer after one game. He had a good game, no doubt. It was against a very very bad defensive team and he is still throwing to receivers that can't catch. Plus did he even throw to BE more than once? I want to see the rest of the season. BQ will get to face many tough defenses and they will start to game plan for the 10 yard and under passes. I think he has the skill set but I want to see him do it more than one game. He does it for 3 or 4 in a row, that is a different story.

 

I am not doing a DA vs BQ comparison, because DA is not the answer does not make BQ the answer. Lets see him prove it. Remember, DA looked awful good his first several weeks.

[Guest Masters]

I can conceed that DA is not the answer for the Browns. But, I am not willing to say that BQ is the answer after one game. He had a good game, no doubt. It was against a very very bad defensive team and he is still throwing to receivers that can't catch. Plus did he even throw to BE more than once? I want to see the rest of the season. BQ will get to face many tough defenses and they will start to game plan for the 10 yard and under passes. I think he has the skill set but I want to see him do it more than one game. He does it for 3 or 4 in a row, that is a different story.

 

I am not doing a DA vs BQ comparison, because DA is not the answer does not make BQ the answer. Lets see him prove it. Remember, DA looked awful good his first several weeks.

 

I don't think any sensible fan would disagree. There are 7 games left for CLE to figure out who Quinn is. That will go a long way to determining what CLE will do with DA at seasons end.

 

Oh, and BE was thrown to more than once. There was the play negated by the Winslow penalty. Quinn missed him twice on throws, including once at the left side of the end zone in the second quarter. He had another chance at a deep sideline pass later in the 3rd QTR, but Bly knocked it away

[sisky fringo]

It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.

we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?

 

is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?

 

if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)

 

or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?

 

if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.

 

in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.

[Guest Masters]

It's 5M + 1.45M or to the tune of 6.45M to be a back up. No just 1.45M or just 5M, its a total of both. That is the issue at hand.

we pay the bonus or the cap hit (which is about the same) so we spend the 5 mil regardless, right?

 

is there a way for the team to get around paying one or the other?

 

if not it's a wash ........they spend almost 5 mil and possibly gain a (low?) draft pick (if anything- basically spending 5 mil for nothing and still losing a starting caliber QB)

 

or spend 6.45 mil and add a starting caliber QB with 24 starts in Chud's offense, basically adding a QB for 1.45 mil. i dunno. maybe we're missing something. how many years left on BQ's deal? enough, right? and BE and S. Jones are due this year. any others?

 

if the Browns don't keep DA in '09 i seriously doubt it's because they couldn't afford him. well managed teams seem like they can afford the things they want, and this team has gone after many a few already.

 

in general, this team seems to like to rule out possibilities, make certain it's sure before turning any corners. it sees what it wants and goes and gets it. these ventures don't always pan out but if this is any indication for the future, if they want DA, odds are it'll happen.

 

I see your point and where you are going.

 

I have to do some digging, but I think also keeping him will hurt more on the cap in 2010. On top of that, the escelators in BQs contract kick in if he is the starter, so that has to be factored in. That extra 2M in keeping DA might hurt more than it looks right now. Especially with BE's contract coming up, Jones's contract coming up, and KW looking to redo his deal.

 

Like I said to JADBF, there is a lot of fuzzy math when it comes to the cap and such. But you certainy don't move or cut DA unless there is no doubts on Quinn.

 

Me personally, I'd be just as content with Dorsey at back up instead of DA (in the world where we assume Quinn is indeed the real deal). He knows the O, can make the throws, and has starting experience.

[Preacher]

Foolish.

 

You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.

 

Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.

 

At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.

[WVBrownsfan]

Foolish.

 

You absolutely DO NOT KEEP him.

 

Why? Because if Quinn hits a rough spot in his development (and he will, he is human and the Browns don't cheat a la the Patriots*) you don't want someone calling for D.A. to come back in. That is why you let him go, recover the cap space, and then go find a decent journeyman QB for a backup. If you already have that guy in Dorsey, then draft a Qb in the 6th or 7th round to come in and get pounded by the D during practice.

 

At this point, through good or bad, up or down, you keep B.Q. on the field unless he is injured or the team gives up on him.

 

My thoughts exactly Preacher. The only way DA gets back in this season is if Quinn gets injured, they're not going to flip flop starting QB's for the rest of the year. This is Quinn's team now so you have to cut ties with DA and get what you can for him and look for a free agent back up in the offseason if Dorsey isn't the answer. It was going to come to this sooner or later and it looks like sooner has arrived.