You're the GM...

[calfoxwc]

GM Andrew Berry - Cleveland Browns 'fully expect' Baker ...

https://www.espn.com › nfl › story › _ › id › 33042551 › cleveland-browns-fully-expect-baker-mayfield-starting-qb-rebound-2022-season

Browns general manager Andrew Berry said Tuesday that the team expects Baker Mayfield to return as the starting QB next season and rebound after an injury-filled, subpar 2021 season.

Keep Baker Mayfield as the QB for a full fifth year: The ...

https://www.msn.com › en-us › sports › nfl › keep-baker-mayfield-as-the-qb-for-a-full-fifth-year-the-mayfield-matrix-jameis-winston-option › ar-AASJCuj

Keep Baker Mayfield as the QB for a full fifth year: The Mayfield Matrix Jameis Winston Option. CLEVELAND, Ohio — The Browns have said they are committed to Baker Mayfield as their quarterback ...

****************************************************************

The Browns went to the playoffs last year with Baker Mayfield.

 

difference? no obj to take the heat off Landry.

 

and Andrew Berry decides - he knows a ton about football. I support his decisions - he's been brilliant in making them in the draft.

 

[Louisville Slugger]

I really like Baker. I think he could be a top 10 QB... in another system. With this being a poor QB class I think we could start a bidding war for him and net multiple 1st round picks.

With those picks we have options. (Warning you're going to hate the last one but hear me out)

1. If Aaron Rodgers does become available we would have to be the favorite to land him. Our OC was close with him, we would have the trade ammo, and the cap space to bring him and Adam's in.

2. A potential Russell Wilson or Carr trade.

3. We use the draft picks and sign Bridgewater. Bridgewater might not put up big numbers but he's won in this system. He's a system QB but that's what Stephanski seems to want. We improve the overall talent on the team for 5 years and we get comparable production to Baker. We obviously would need to be on the search for an upgrade but I think we could still be contenders even with Bridgewater at QB.

[hoorta]

44 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

I really like Baker. I think he could be a top 10 QB... in another system. With this being a poor QB class I think we could start a bidding war for him and net multiple 1st round picks.

With those picks we have options. (Warning you're going to hate the last one but hear me out)

1. If Aaron Rodgers does become available we would have to be the favorite to land him. Our OC was close with him, we would have the trade ammo, and the cap space to bring him and Adam's in.

2. A potential Russell Wilson or Carr trade.

3. We use the draft picks and sign Bridgewater. Bridgewater might not put up big numbers but he's won in this system. He's a system QB but that's what Stephanski seems to want. We improve the overall talent on the team for 5 years and we get comparable production to Baker. We obviously would need to be on the search for an upgrade but I think we could still be contenders even with Bridgewater at QB.

RE: the BOLD... You're dreaming.... 

1) Even when 100% healthy, there's some serious debate if Baker is a "top 10" QB.

2) As of now, Mayfield is damaged goods,  buyer beware. We'd be lucky to get a second round pick for him.   

3) Teddy B? Oh please...   A) He's not an upgrade over Baker..  B) He's fragile, only played one complete season to date.. C) According to Spotrac, he's also an unrestricted free agent this year.  Now if you want to tell me bring him in as a very expensive backup to Mayfield, I'll think about that one.  

[Louisville Slugger]

If Baker was in this draft he would easily be the top QB right? He's had 2 good years and 2 bad years. His bad years came under Kitchens and that while debacle. Then this year when he had a blown out shoulder. The only reason I'm considering trading him is because I don't think Stephanski can get the best out of him. You might as well let him find his guy and cash out on a desperate team with no options

Bridgewater is no where near as good as Baker, but he knows the offense and he's better than Keenum. He would be a bridge while Stephanski finds his guy but keeps us competitive and would be cheap

[gumby73]

21 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

Bridgewater is no where near 

forever known as Twatwater.. from his draft days  https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10926184/teddy-bridgewater-says-want-play-cleveland-browns

[Flugel]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

Don't remember where I saw it- but one commentator had a thing he called "The Dalton Scale"... Let's put Dandy Andy somewhere around 15th or so of NFL starting quarterbacks.  If you have someone better... You have your Franchise Quarterback.  Lower? Maybe you should start looking for a replacement.   

Well, in their final ranking of NFL QBs- they had Baker at #24 (don't think I would even have had him rated that high).   Here's what they had to say about Baker...

"I'm tired of trying to tease out the impact of Mayfield's shoulder injury on his 2021 play, which took a gigantic step back. He was medically cleared to play each week. Quarterbacks play through injuries often and are evaluated with that in mind. Some excel. Some manage the injury enough to be average. Mayfield, a little better than average when healthy, became a liability. I worry that Baker doesn't have any major plus traits to compensate when his surroundings or his body aren't 100 percent. His biggest shortcomings -- holding the ball too long, converting pressure into sacks and not seeing the field -- have remained consistent throughout his career."

Ya know- I 100% agree with that evaluation, & worry about the BOLD too...  Here's the entire article for your reading enjoyment, I have little I'd argue about...   https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings

Hoorta you keep describing this season from Baker like it's been the rule instead of the exception to it.  Again, 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs with an 11-5 record and 48-37 playoff victory AT Pittsburgh was only 1 season ago.  The next week at KC, the Browns were a Higgins' fumble for a touchback away from game winning points very late in the contest. Baker hit Higgins in stride with YAC; but the play ended in YUCK.  How much differently would people be thinking about Baker if Higgins didn't fumble that away?  If you didn't see the 2020 version of Baker as WAY better than the guy we saw this past year - it's because you didn't want to.  No reason we can't see the same QB we saw here in 2020 or better.

Being medically cleared to play each week was heavily influenced by the FO at the end of every practice week summarizing "Baker wasn't in any pain and he looked fine."  Should there be any pain after practices didn't allow defenders to hit the QB all week?  On game days, he's frequently getting hit and planted enough to bring back the pain, discomfort and pocket antsy.  That'll distract the progression reads in a hurry.  Adding insult to injury, James Hudson III looked like a mannequin trying to pass protect against TJ Watt.  That got so ugly one of the commentators finally said "Cleveland you might want to start giving Hudson some help here."  Ya think?  

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

If Baker was in this draft he would easily be the top QB right? He's had 2 good years and 2 bad years. His bad years came under Kitchens and that while debacle. Then this year when he had a blown out shoulder. The only reason I'm considering trading him is because I don't think Stephanski can get the best out of him. You might as well let him find his guy and cash out on a desperate team with no options

Bridgewater is no where near as good as Baker, but he knows the offense and he's better than Keenum. He would be a bridge while Stephanski finds his guy but keeps us competitive and would be cheap

The bold is plain crazy... So let's downgrade from Baker... Glad you're not the Browns GM.   

I'll just point this out to you about your dream of multiple picks for Baker.... And with his bum shoulder... No way in hell would he be the top QB... He wouldn't be able to throw at the combine.  

An accurate comparison would be what the Eagles got for Carson Wentz trading him to the Colts... A second, that turned into a first based on playing time....  

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

Hoorta you keep describing this season from Baker like it's been the rule instead of the exception to it.  Again, 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs with an 11-5 record and 48-37 playoff victory AT Pittsburgh was only 1 season ago.  The next week at KC, the Browns were a Higgins' fumble for a touchback away from game winning points very late in the contest. Baker hit Higgins in stride with YAC; but the play ended in YUCK.  How much differently would people be thinking about Baker if Higgins didn't fumble that away?  If you didn't see the 2020 version of Baker as WAY better than the guy we saw this past year - it's because you didn't want to.  No reason we can't see the same QB we saw here in 2020 or better.

Being medically cleared to play each week was heavily influenced by the FO at the end of every practice week summarizing "Baker wasn't in any pain and he looked fine."  Should there be any pain after practices didn't allow defenders to hit the QB all week?  On game days, he's frequently getting hit and planted enough to bring back the pain, discomfort and pocket antsy.  That'll distract the progression reads in a hurry.  Adding insult to injury, James Hudson III looked like a mannequin trying to pass protect against TJ Watt.  That got so ugly one of the commentators finally said "Cleveland you might want to start giving Hudson some help here."  Ya think?  

Regarding beating the Steelers in the playoff game... We were up 7-0 after about 20 seconds, and how many turnovers did we get? We hung on to win....   

BTW, What if that magical 2020 season IS the outlier? Remember that Derek Anderson guy? Or Tim Couch after defective o line play turned him into a pinata? Shoulder aside, Baker took quite the beating, um because (see below) he holds on to the ball far too long in a lot of cases. I can't count the number of times this year I was screaming... THROW IT AWAY!!! Tia has posted plenty of  screen shots where Baker didn't see guys who were wide open, and he threw into double coverage instead. Can't use the injury excuse on that stuff. 

What part of my post did you miss Tom?   I fear Baker has been "figured out".  Sure the injury was responsible for his lousy play.  FWIW, I totally agree that the below is an extremely accurate description of stuff Baker needs to improve on. But can he? 

 I worry that Baker doesn't have any major plus traits to compensate when his surroundings or his body aren't 100 percent. His biggest shortcomings -- holding the ball too long, converting pressure into sacks and not seeing the field -- have remained consistent throughout his career."

[Westside Steve]

Of course who knows because I don't think many of us spend much time watching replays of other teams games but I would bet there's a screenshot of every play of every team that doesn't get the desired yardage showing an open receiver somewhere. Or at least most. That would be a pretty common thing whenever a timing pattern is called. Once the ball is released Defenders are going to be traveling towards the intended destination so somebody is going to be out there.

WSS 

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

 I worry that Baker doesn't have any major plus traits to compensate when his surroundings or his body aren't 100 percent. His biggest shortcomings -- holding the ball too long, converting pressure into sacks and not seeing the field -- have remained consistent throughout his career."

As Rex Ryan said recently: "Being short and having average athleticism is not a recipe for success in today's NFL". When added with the other problems - holding onto the ball too long, not seeing the field well, you have a starting QB who is limited. 

That being said, I still think Mayfield can come back next season and be a second level-type starting QB. A guy who sits somewhere in the second level of QBs, #11-20. Good enough to start for someone for years, and when can help your team into the playoffs. I've made the Baker comparison for a while now - Andy Dalton. This infuriates the Baker Boys, because Dalton didn't win any playoff games, and as the Baker Boys will remind you, Baker beat the Steelers in Pittsburgh in the playoffs. (So did Blake Bortles, and so did Tim Tebow on the road) But I'll throw another guy Baker's production could mirror - Joe Flacco. Flacco, in a playoff run where he and the Ravens had everything clicking, ended up winning a Super Bowl. 

Like I've said before, if you can improve upon Baker Mayfield, I'm all for doing it. But if not, get Baker healthy, improve the offense around him, and try again in 2022. 

[ballpeen]

I think Baker is playing for a little over $18 mil this upcoming season.  I would offer him a 2yr, $40 mil deal.  I do this to find out how interested he really is in returning to Cleveland.  It is a mid level deal we can live with which would have a easy out in 2023.  He hasn't earned a $35 mil per year deal over 5 years.   If he balks, I look for a QB.

 

To me the 2 biggest starting deficiencies are at WR and DT. Naturally I would look towards FA.  With the draft, I would be more inclined to go DT at pick 13.  The WR group in pretty deep and IMO it is easier to find a good receiver later in the draft over finding another DT later in the draft.  Combine that with the fact we aren't a big passing offence, I question exactly how much of a difference a top receiver is going to make.

 

I am not going in to much detail here, but those are the big areas I would address.  Oh..I probably spend a 4th or 5th rounder on a kicker.  Just draft the guy, then stick with him for at least 2 season unless is turns out to be impossibly bad.  Both of Georgia and Alabama have good kickers.  I don't know if they are available to draft.  If so, take one of them.

[Flugel]

6 hours ago, hoorta said:

Regarding beating the Steelers in the playoff game... We were up 7-0 after about 20 seconds, and how many turnovers did we get? We hung on to win....   

BTW, What if that magical 2020 season IS the outlier? Remember that Derek Anderson guy? Or Tim Couch after defective o line play turned him into a pinata? Shoulder aside, Baker took quite the beating, um because (see below) he holds on to the ball far too long in a lot of cases. I can't count the number of times this year I was screaming... THROW IT AWAY!!! Tia has posted plenty of  screen shots where Baker didn't see guys who were wide open, and he threw into double coverage instead. Can't use the injury excuse on that stuff. 

What part of my post did you miss Tom?   I fear Baker has been "figured out".  Sure the injury was responsible for his lousy play.  FWIW, I totally agree that the below is an extremely accurate description of stuff Baker needs to improve on. But can he? 

 I worry that Baker doesn't have any major plus traits to compensate when his surroundings or his body aren't 100 percent. His biggest shortcomings -- holding the ball too long, converting pressure into sacks and not seeing the field -- have remained consistent throughout his career."

Okay, 48 points minus 7 = 41 points Larry.  You're upset about that?  Derek Anderson? Really? That was a Cinderella story with a very early midnight; and he went 0 for Pittsburgh.  Baker beat them 2 out of 3 times in successive weeks; and the Browns beat their starters easier than they beat their backups.   And how did he respond Denzel Ward's pick 6 on Joe Burrow got us the same kind of early lead?  The Browns ended up scoring 34 more points while both the offense and defense played better the rest of the game right?  Funny how that works sometimes.

Next, which one of us lost count how many different OCs and offenses Baker has had to learn and de-program in 4 years after being drafted by an 0-16 football team?  You really didn't see a promising young QB to mold during the rookie season that excited a lot of our fanbase with some reminders of that in 2020?  That's why I need 1 more year before I join you in giving up on him

YES, I agree Baker holds onto the ball too long and he takes too many avoidable sacks.  Some years we've seen more of that than others, which means I share your frustration about consistency. Nobody is making him out to be the next Dan Marino in terms of instant success.  

Like I said, if Baker comes back in the final year of his contract looking like he did in 2021 - I will have seen enough to be cozy with it's time to move on.  

 

[tiamat63]

13 hours ago, Louisville Slugger said:

I really like Baker. I think he could be a top 10 QB... in another system. With this being a poor QB class I think we could start a bidding war for him and net multiple 1st round picks.

 

[Louisville Slugger]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

The last time we talked you were saying Josh Rosen was the best QB in the draft and I was explaining how Lamar Jackson would be a beast in Greg Roman's offense... you know... that guy who was MVP. Whats Josh Rosen 5th year option? Paper or plastic?

[tiamat63]

8 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

The last time we talked you were saying Josh Rosen was the best QB in the draft and I was explaining how Lamar Jackson would be a beast in Greg Roman's offense... you know... that guy who was MVP. Whats Josh Rosen 5th year option? Paper or plastic?

 

And look at Lamar when he's forced to shoulder the load of a normal passing game and expand upon that cut down Roman offense.   Pretty mediocre at the position while getting his ass beat up and down the field, huh?

But please, ignore my accurate assessments of Weeden, Manziel, Russel Wilson, Deshone Kizer, Joe Burrow, Mitch Trubisky, Baker, Paxton Lynch, Mason Rudolph...  and those are just QB's. 

 

You know you don't have much to go on when you hang your hat on the evaluation of one player. 

 

[Kegeratorz]

12 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Deshone Kizer

 

 

Never gets old

[calfoxwc]

6 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Of course who knows because I don't think many of us spend much time watching replays of other teams games but I would bet there's a screenshot of every play of every team that doesn't get the desired yardage showing an open receiver somewhere. Or at least most. That would be a pretty common thing whenever a timing pattern is called. Once the ball is released Defenders are going to be traveling towards the intended destination so somebody is going to be out there.

WSS 

Exactly. I mentioned barfsonhisblooger completely missing on seeing his wr/te? WIDE OPEN IN THE END ZONE. that is, COMPLETELY.

Maybe somebody should post a screen shot of that, and say the squealer qb is only average.............

[tiamat63]

12 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

Exactly. I mentioned barfsonhisblooger completely missing on seeing his wr/te? WIDE OPEN IN THE END ZONE. that is, COMPLETELY.

Maybe somebody should post a screen shot of that, and say the squealer qb is only average.............

Big Ben is a  below average QB and a shell of himself. If he was any other player Pittsburgh would have benched him by now.  But he's being allowed to go out on his time and terms.  

And I don't need a screenshot to prove that.

[Kegeratorz]

9 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

And I don't need a screenshot to prove that.

I added one anyways.

[hoorta]

16 hours ago, Flugel said:

 

YES, I agree Baker holds onto the ball too long and he takes too many avoidable sacks.  Some years we've seen more of that than others, which means I share your frustration about consistency. Nobody is making him out to be the next Dan Marino in terms of instant success.  

Like I said, if Baker comes back in the final year of his contract looking like he did in 2021 - I will have seen enough to be cozy with it's time to move on.  

 

Please don't make me look up the game log of the Steelers game where those turnovers gave us a short field to work with. 

You might want to think that after four years, in all likelihood Baker "is who we thought he was"...  You just keep on keeping on about 2020, ignore the other three seasons, and keep making excuses for him.  That blub I posted from NFL.com where "Baker needs to be 100% healthy, and everything around him needs to be perfect" pretty accurately describes our 2020 season.  Or you want to disagree about that too?  His pathetic performance in crunch time with the game on the line, and his league leading interception totals are plenty enough reasons for serious concern.  

NO ONE outside of the the most ardent Baker homer observers outside of Cleveland are all saying that Baker is NEVER going to be an "elite" QB on the level of a Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, or Josh Allen.  Those guys ALL posses elite traits that Baker has yet to show- and incidentally- he's had four stinking years to prove that he does.  

Go look up Baker's career stats on Pro Football Reference- I just did, and they scream "average".  Yup, the comparisons to the Bengals Andy Dalton are apt. So am I pulling for Baker to revert to 2020 form? Of course, I'm not in the mood to add another name to the failed QB jersey, and I'm getting far too old for that.  

BTW, read between the lines of Joe Johnson's exit interview.  You can bet he was pretty pissed off (I suppose I should be too) that Baker and the offense pissed away two stellar defensive efforts against the Ravens and Packers. Even average QB play and we beat the Steelers if not the first, then certainly the second time around this year.  1-12, a sack, and an interception- and mush for brains Kev still refuses to bench him. Stef bears part of the blame letting wounded wing Baker play when he's got one of the top rushing offenses in the league- against the worst rush defense in the league. Stefanski has to learn how to not outsmart himself on a regular basis.  

BTW, doesn't matter if "medically cleared", "I feel fine", "looks great in practice"... If said quarterback is playing like crap when the live bullets start flying. Four out of six sub 60 qbrs in the last six games is street free agent level play.  

 

[tiamat63]

16 minutes ago, Kegeratorz said:

I added one anyways.

 

As much as I'd love to pile it on, the dude wears my number 7, has given 17 years to the league and I've also been in the spot where your last game is a letdown and you just sit in silence feeling physically and emotionally exhausted. 

I have no love for Pittsburgh, but I have a healthy respect for anyone who has competed for that long.   I hope Ben sails into a healthy retirement and Pittsburgh has shitty QB play for the next 20 years.

[Kegeratorz]

1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

I have no love for Pittsburgh, but I have a healthy respect for anyone who has competed for that long.   I hope Ben sails into a healthy retirement and Pittsburgh has shitty QB play for the next 20 years.

Agreed

[Orion]

9 hours ago, ballpeen said:

Combine that with the fact we aren't a big passing offence,

You judges think everything is an offence.  lol

IMO, therein lies the problem.  YOU HAVE TO BE a big passing offense.  You can't run yourself back into the game if things don't go your way and you fall behind.  As we've seen.

[tiamat63]

22 hours ago, Kegeratorz said:

 

 

Never gets old

I could swear that guy was at Smokey Bones the night I got kicked out after the  Browns drafted Manziel.

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

Pretty sure that guy was at Smokey Bones the night I got kicked out after the  Browns drafted Manziel.

The entirety of the Browns fan base should have rose up and burnt the Browns Headquarters to the ground that night.

But I'm sure I can guess who on this board was totally stoked that night. 

WE GOT JOHNNY FOOTBALL! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Flugel]

18 hours ago, hoorta said:

Please don't make me look up the game log of the Steelers game where those turnovers gave us a short field to work with. 

You might want to think that after four years, in all likelihood Baker "is who we thought he was"...  You just keep on keeping on about 2020, ignore the other three seasons, and keep making excuses for him.  That blub I posted from NFL.com where "Baker needs to be 100% healthy, and everything around him needs to be perfect" pretty accurately describes our 2020 season. 

You're still going on after I agreed with the majority of the problems you had with Baker?  Where we differ is I saw enough promise in him in 2018 and 2020 to not join you in giving up on him before he plays the final year of his contract.  Again, if 2022 becomes a rinse and repeat of 2021 it won't be tough to give up on him at all. Thought I took the time to carefully explain all the reasoning I had; but you were more interested in trying to win an argument.  

I'm not going to apologize about Baker when the Browns scored 48 points in the playoffs AT Pittsburgh; because you're more worried about where each possession started rather than how many of those ended with points (we already subtracted the 1st TD of the game the defense scored so we're only talking about the other 41 points).  I agree Baker got a lot of short fields but if the Browns offense only played for FGs instead of TDs - Pittsburgh's 37 points might have been enough to beat us. Would you have rather had the QB that threw 4 INTs for Pittsburgh than the one that threw 0 INTs for Cleveland?  What's next Larry?  Are you going to attack the Browns' QB when Tim Worley's 3 turnovers gave the Browns 21 points toward their 51-0 victory over Pittsburgh in the late 80s?  I'd rather have you research how many times you've seen Cleveland beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs rather than explain why you think Baker didn't contribute at all to the victory.  

Let me ask you this about your NFL.com blurb,  how was Kyler Murray doing before he lost DeAndre Hopkins and injured his ankle?  And how has he done since?  Seems to me they were unbeaten with a healthy QB when everything around him was perfect. It's been a drastic difference.   

[SdBacker80]

8 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The entirety of the Browns fan base should have rose up and burnt the Browns Headquarters to the ground that night.

But I'm sure I can guess who on this board was totally stoked that night. 

WE GOT JOHNNY FOOTBALL! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

There was a seven or eight year period where I didn’t like any first round pick except for Trent Richardson and then Jim Brown called him average and he went downhill after that early season Bengal game.

admittedly I wanted us to take Brett Huntley and Aaron Murray when they entered neither did a lot. 

 

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

24 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

There was a seven or eight year period where I didn’t like any first round pick except for Trent Richardson and then Jim Brown called him average and he went downhill after that early season Bengal game.

admittedly I wanted us to take Brett Huntley and Aaron Murray when they entered neither did a lot.

I made so many old jokes at Brandon Weeden's expense the year they took Richardson... man I really, really hated that pick. 

Here's one: Brandon Weeden is so old, the reason he wears #3 is because that is his social security number. 

[hoorta]

15 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The entirety of the Browns fan base should have rose up and burnt the Browns Headquarters to the ground that night.

But I'm sure I can guess who on this board was totally stoked that night. 

WE GOT JOHNNY FOOTBALL! WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

No, they should have burnt Haslam's house to the ground... I suspect he was behind that pick.  

[Dutch Oven]

13 hours ago, hoorta said:

No, they should have burnt Haslam's house to the ground... I suspect he was behind that pick.  

Well, he did take advice from some random homeless guy, so....