You're the GM...

[gumby73]

12 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Why are folks writing off Conklin???- he’s not dead!!!  He’s 27.

Jimmy Graham suffered one early in his career and was back kicking butt in 10 months. 

 

@ScottPetrak

 

#Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said RT Jack Conklin had surgery to repair ruptured patellar tendon. Is in good spirits.

 

 

1:03 PM ·* Dec 6, 2021 ****He will now continue his road to recovery in hopes of being ready to return in time for the 2022 campaign.

 

few Conklin doc edits here>>  https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2021/11/29/22808909/cleveland-browns-lose-jack-conklin-to-season-ending-injury

ready by June 1st is a thing.. Conklin has one more year left on his contract with Cleveland. If he struggles upon his return to health, the Browns could save $12 million in salary cap with only $3 million in dead money as a “post-June 1st” designated release. If he is not healthy, the team couldn’t cut him and save cap space.

 

 

This Jimmy Graham link is a wild 'I never knew' this.... https://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2018/06/11/packers-jimmy-graham-stem-cells-controversial-treatment/685848002/  

[TexasAg1969]

17 hours ago, hoorta said:

He's a Troll nickers...  I kicked him off....  

 

10 hours ago, nickers said:

Yeah , I figured as much

I thought nickers was the troll. LOL!😂

[Gunz41]

13 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

You make the Manning vs. Baker comparison and then say it is not to say Baker is anywhere near as good as Peyton.  Well Why throw it out there.  
 

 

Because its based on a stat that you and others continue to reference, the # of INT Baker has thrown in 1st 4 years. 

So using said stat to determine how bad Baker is means ZERO.

If you want to continue to use that as the measuring stick, then go for it, but just giving it context to it.

So again I will say it, PEYTON MANNING is/was 10 times better than Baker, he also threw WAY MORE INT than Baker 1st 4 years, more often, and a lower TD/INT ratio.

So maybe, just maybe that is a misleading stat?

[SdBacker80]

48 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Because its based on a stat that you and others continue to reference, the # of INT Baker has thrown in 1st 4 years. 

So using said stat to determine how bad Baker is means ZERO.

If you want to continue to use that as the measuring stick, then go for it, but just giving it context to it.

So again I will say it, PEYTON MANNING is/was 10 times better than Baker, he also threw WAY MORE INT than Baker 1st 4 years, more often, and a lower TD/INT ratio.

So maybe, just maybe that is a misleading stat?

So you pick one HOF QB that is comparable in regard to the stat brought up by others (me too) and that provides context that the stat means squat in showing Baker is bad? My claim is he hasn’t played well enough to be the Browns QB next season (based on a number of factors).

And Maybe others were a little lazy and didn’t discuss other factors.

I’ll maintain though having the most INTs of any QB the past four years definitely bolsters a claim that he’s bad and/or hasn’t played well enough.
 

 That is my claim- he hasn’t played well enough to be the QB of this team. 

[Flugel]

On 1/4/2022 at 8:45 PM, SdBacker80 said:

Let’s see a list come draft and FA time.

Baker has thrown the most INTs of any QB since 2018.  We can’t have that period….and I’m positive we can improve  upon that without even seeing a list 

When we had 2 healthy OTs starting in 2020, Baker's TD:INT ratio was 26 TD:8 INT.   The team went 11-5 plus a 1st round playoff W at Pittsburgh. The rookie year was 27 TD:14 INT in 2018

I have a feeling a guy like Sean Payton could make him a much more effective QB than we saw here in 2019 and 2021. 

It begins with WANTING him much the way it did for Drew Brees when Payton was 1 of the only guys that WANTED Brees after the shoulder surgery.  Also keep in mind that after Brees' 3rd season in SD, they drafted a QB 1st overall (Eli Manning) who said "don't draft me 1st because I'm not going to play in SD."  They did it anyway so then they had to end up trading with the Giants for Philip Rivers in the 4th spot.  Rivers held out the length of training camp and Brees led SD to 12-4 with a Pro Bowl in his 4th NFL season.  The success remained a few years until the shoulder injury finally allowed them to play Rivers.

 

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

Because its based on a stat that you and others continue to reference, the # of INT Baker has thrown in 1st 4 years. 

So using said stat to determine how bad Baker is means ZERO.

If you want to continue to use that as the measuring stick, then go for it, but just giving it context to it.

So again I will say it, PEYTON MANNING is/was 10 times better than Baker, he also threw WAY MORE INT than Baker 1st 4 years, more often, and a lower TD/INT ratio.

So maybe, just maybe that is a misleading stat?

Peyton commanded a pass first first,  vertical offense,  that ran through the QB position and picked up where the Greatest Show on Turf left off.  

Peyton also put up 4100+ yards and flirted with maintaining at least a 2:1 TD-INT ratio.   Manning also cut his iNT's in half along with improving every stat column as early as his 2nd season.  It was in Bakers 2nd season some of his flaws and limitations began being more noticeable. 

Also worth pointing out, the 1st contract period Peyton was in saw up and down play in terms of interceptions. Ones that cost his team early playoff exits and he justly received criticism.  

The improvement in play that would help to offset the turnover potential has yet to come to fruition with Baker.   In his 2nd season the offense didn't improve until we went back under center and make Chubb the focal point.  In his 3rd season, Chubb and Hunt powered the vehicle while Baker steered.

I've referenced this before, but Bakers stats are within a single percent of Case Keenums in about 8 major categories between that 2017 Vikings and the 2020 Browns offense. 

Turnovers are crucial, you can't have them.  But your QB has to be able to play well enough to overcome them should they happen - Peyton did... Baker does not.  

It's a silly comparison without further context. 

 

 

 

Edit:  Wonder if Kurt Benkurt wants a shot at being a starting QB.

[Gunz41]

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Peyton commanded a pass first first,  vertical offense,  that ran through the QB position and picked up where the Greatest Show on Turf left off.  

Peyton also put up 4100+ yards and flirted with maintaining at least a 2:1 TD-INT ratio.   Manning also cut his iNT's in half along with improving every stat column as early as his 2nd season.  It was in Bakers 2nd season some of his flaws and limitations began being more noticeable. 

Also worth pointing out, the 1st contract period Peyton was in saw up and down play in terms of interceptions. Ones that cost his team early playoff exits and he justly received criticism.  

The improvement in play that would help to offset the turnover potential has yet to come to fruition with Baker.   In his 2nd season the offense didn't improve until we went back under center and make Chubb the focal point.  In his 3rd season, Chubb and Hunt powered the vehicle while Baker steered.

I've referenced this before, but Bakers stats are within a single percent of Case Keenums in about 8 major categories between that 2017 Vikings and the 2020 Browns offense. 

Turnovers are crucial, you can't have them.  But your QB has to be able to play well enough to overcome them should they happen - Peyton did... Baker does not.  

It's a silly comparison without further context. 

 

 

 

Edit:  Wonder if Kurt Benkurt wants a shot at being a starting QB.

You are making my point for me, using just the one stat (without any explanation) gives ZERO context. 

And be fair, there isn't a QB that isn't effectived negatively by TOs when they do happen, that isn't just a Baker thing.

And no sir, you are not entitled to lies to make a point.

Peyton (each 4 year INT): 28, 15, 15, 23. So he absolutely did not cut it down each year there.

 

4 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

So you pick one HOF QB that is comparable in regard to the stat brought up by others (me too) and that provides context that the stat means squat in showing Baker is bad? My claim is he hasn’t played well enough to be the Browns QB next season (based on a number of factors).

And Maybe others were a little lazy and didn’t discuss other factors.

I’ll maintain though having the most INTs of any QB the past four years definitely bolsters a claim that he’s bad and/or hasn’t played well enough.
 

 That is my claim- he hasn’t played well enough to be the QB of this team. 

No, you just obviously don't read or comprehend the rest, which is EXACTLY why I said I didn't want to reply.

First, I said multiple times it doesn't make him good or comparable, and I also said just one example.

 

But since you want to keep on...

Brady (taking out the 1st year as he went 1-3): 52 INT

Warner: 64 INT

Elway: 65 INT

Luck: 55 INT

So there ya go buddy, more than one more example of similar.

And again, at what point did you realize that Baker wasn't the guy going forward? If you can't remember, I am sure you can go back and read your own words after the Chiefs game or in the off-season.

And if you had high expectations and don't give any credibility to injuries being perhaps part of the regression, then I believe that is asinine, especially when you make comments about getting a 4th or 5th rounder to get a K or P for what was thought to be the QB of future.

 

And just for fun, I know I already said I understand the Rodgers, Wilson, Watson talk (assuming Watson isn't in trouble). I will go ahead and concede Brady. Obviously Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Murray are better. You can say Lamar (even with completely different styles). 

But for the talk about leading the league in INT itself is misleading:

That leaves 13 of the teams that don't have a QB that would qualify for the 4 years. 

The others (names not obviously mentioned above):

Big Ben, Tannehill, Wentz, Carr, Dak, Cousins, Goff, Ryan, Stafford, Jimmy G.

Now, I will go ahead and say, if Browns can get a better QB than Baker without negatively effecting the team then absolutely go for it. But to get someone minimally better for more money, I say no. And to trust a college kid (in a bad QB draft), i say ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

I am done with this conversation. I am not even trying to change anyones mind on BM. I am just saying throwing out this stat or that stat without context is very misleading. And to just act as if you have been down on BM all along (even if there is contradictory evidence, that isn't for ANYONE particular) but won't give credit to injury playing a part, is sad. It is easy to see how it has effected his mechanics, which then will effect your confidence and decision making. You don't have to have studied game film before to see and understand that.

Ill go ahead and ask one more question, if Baker Mayfield had the EXACT same stats as he does currently, but Gillian hadn't dropped snap, didn't have the covid game, and had gotten even one of the two terrible calls (Chargers or Packers), and after today the Browns were 11-6 or 10-7, would you still want to get rid of him? 

 

[SdBacker80]

8 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

You are making my point for me, using just the one stat (without any explanation) gives ZERO context. 

And be fair, there isn't a QB that isn't effectived negatively by TOs when they do happen, that isn't just a Baker thing.

And no sir, you are not entitled to lies to make a point.

Peyton (each 4 year INT): 28, 15, 15, 23. So he absolutely did not cut it down each year there.

 

No, you just obviously don't read or comprehend the rest, which is EXACTLY why I said I didn't want to reply.

First, I said multiple times it doesn't make him good or comparable, and I also said just one example.

 

But since you want to keep on...

Brady (taking out the 1st year as he went 1-3): 52 INT

Warner: 64 INT

Elway: 65 INT

Luck: 55 INT

So there ya go buddy, more than one more example of similar.

And again, at what point did you realize that Baker wasn't the guy going forward? If you can't remember, I am sure you can go back and read your own words after the Chiefs game or in the off-season.

And if you had high expectations and don't give any credibility to injuries being perhaps part of the regression, then I believe that is asinine, especially when you make comments about getting a 4th or 5th rounder to get a K or P for what was thought to be the QB of future.

 

And just for fun, I know I already said I understand the Rodgers, Wilson, Watson talk (assuming Watson isn't in trouble). I will go ahead and concede Brady. Obviously Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Murray are better. You can say Lamar (even with completely different styles). 

But for the talk about leading the league in INT itself is misleading:

That leaves 13 of the teams that don't have a QB that would qualify for the 4 years. 

The others (names not obviously mentioned above):

Big Ben, Tannehill, Wentz, Carr, Dak, Cousins, Goff, Ryan, Stafford, Jimmy G.

Now, I will go ahead and say, if Browns can get a better QB than Baker without negatively effecting the team then absolutely go for it. But to get someone minimally better for more money, I say no. And to trust a college kid (in a bad QB draft), i say ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

I am done with this conversation. I am not even trying to change anyones mind on BM. I am just saying throwing out this stat or that stat without context is very misleading. And to just act as if you have been down on BM all along (even if there is contradictory evidence, that isn't for ANYONE particular) but won't give credit to injury playing a part, is sad. It is easy to see how it has effected his mechanics, which then will effect your confidence and decision making. You don't have to have studied game film before to see and understand that.

Ill go ahead and ask one more question, if Baker Mayfield had the EXACT same stats as he does currently, but Gillian hadn't dropped snap, didn't have the covid game, and had gotten even one of the two terrible calls (Chargers or Packers), and after today the Browns were 11-6 or 10-7, would you still want to get rid of him? 

 

You didn’t want to replay….okay.  Please. You are going down the wrong rabbit hole. 

Peyton Manning and Baker they have one thing in common they both beat Ohio St in their Senior Year of college. 

[hoorta]

9 hours ago, Flugel said:

When we had 2 healthy OTs starting in 2020, Baker's TD:INT ratio was 26 TD:8 INT.   The team went 11-5 plus a 1st round playoff W at Pittsburgh. The rookie year was 27 TD:14 INT in 2018

I have a feeling a guy like Sean Payton could make him a much more effective QB than we saw here in 2019 and 2021. 

It begins with WANTING him much the way it did for Drew Brees when Payton was 1 of the only guys that WANTED Brees after the shoulder surgery.  Also keep in mind that after Brees' 3rd season in SD, they drafted a QB 1st overall (Eli Manning) who said "don't draft me 1st because I'm not going to play in SD."  They did it anyway so then they had to end up trading with the Giants for Philip Rivers in the 4th spot.  Rivers held out the length of training camp and Brees led SD to 12-4 with a Pro Bowl in his 4th NFL season.  The success remained a few years until the shoulder injury finally allowed them to play Rivers.

 

Nah... Trying to use but... but... but...  Sorry Tom, that's trying to use outliers to make yet more excuses for Baker.  The number of quarterbacks that have faded into oblivion are 10, 20 times more than guys who turn their careers around after a mediocre start.  Shit, Colt McCoy is still bouncing around in the league, that's a far more likely career path for Mayfield as opposed to getting to Canton.  what we just witnessed was the buildup and ensuing crash of a promising Derek Anderson "almost" season followed by a big thud.  

Oh, I'm not minimizing "but he's hurt", either.  BUT I saw today Stefanski- plain as mud- had mush for brains not sitting Baker a lot sooner than he did. OMG- Keenum 100+qbr today- true, against the Bungle scrubs. But you're nuts if you want to opine he couldn't have at least gotten the Browns into the playoffs after Baker's pathetic outing against the Patriots.  And a few other shitfully horrible games that followed down the stretch worthy of an off the street free agent suckful performances.  

2022, the Browns absolutely cannot keep riding Baker the (potentially) three legged horse if he continues to play like crap.  There's already plenty of evidence from far to many quarters there's a distinct possibility even a healthy Baker has flaws opposing defensive coordinators will take advantage of.  As I opined elsewhere.  If Mayfield needs everything around him to be perfect for him to succeed- he's never going to be quite good enough to win a Super Bowl.  

[gumby73]

Today...day day

we are blessed to not hear from Jimmy Haslam at the mic..

 

[tiamat63]

On 1/9/2022 at 3:44 PM, Gunz41 said:

You are making my point for me, using just the one stat (without any explanation) gives ZERO context. 

And be fair, there isn't a QB that isn't effectived negatively by TOs when they do happen, that isn't just a Baker thing.

And no sir, you are not entitled to lies to make a point.

Peyton (each 4 year INT): 28, 15, 15, 23. So he absolutely did not cut it down each year there.

In order 

 

- I have not made your point.  I have given proper context. Peyton played in a wildly different offense. I can't make this one more clear - when you play QB on a run first/heavy running team, your INT are going to be THAT much more magnified and rightly so,  because you are not the engine of the offense, the running game is.  So having the luxury not being the focal point of a defensive game plan, not being the '1A' of a defensive coordinators mind and the variety of ways that coach will attack you, IS context.  I've highlighted that by showing the looks the Pats settled in against VS Baker and how he couldn't make them pay for it. I Need no further example. 

One more time - when the running game takes center stage... a running game that eases a pass rush, moves linebackers and DB's, creates plus throwing windows, and you turn the ball over at a high rate vis a vis an offense that the QB shoulders the load... yes, then a singular stat with applied context in this manner speaks a great deal to the Browns offensive issues.   I didn't feel I needed to spell that one out for you.

 

- Turnovers harm a team. Baker isn't the type of QB that digs himself out though. Mahomes had a slump earlier this season and fought his way out of it.  Mayfield kept digging his hole further down.  Good to great QB's fix their offensive issues when they present themselves over long(er) periods.

 

- re: Peytons INT, I said, in the quote - he began to cut them in half *AS EARLY* as his 2nd year.  28---->14... which he did. And in his 2nd year emerged as one of the faces of the NFL carrying on a tradition of great QB play.   He had spots throughout his 1st contract period (98-03ish) where he still had a penchant for forcing the issue at times and he took criticism for it. I even remember watching the Sportscenter episodes. After that initial contract period, Peyton was usually floating 2:1 or better regularly. That is exactly why I phrased it as such. 

 

- Don't EVER call me a fucking liar ever again because of your lack of comprehension.   My ignore list on this board is long enough already.   I'd appreciate your acknowledgement of the misunderstanding and we can move forward if we cross paths with any further talks. Fair? 

[calfoxwc]

which, btw, in 1996, The Colts drafted Marvin Harrison in the first round. And in 2001, the Colts drafted Reggie Wayne, in the first round.

they also drafted TE Dallas Clark in the first round. 

 ********************************************************

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indianapolis_Colts

"The 2000 and 2001 Colts teams were considerably less successful compared to the 1999 team, and pressure began to mount on team administration and the coaching staff following a 6–10 season in 2001. Head coach Jim Mora was fired at the end of the season and was replaced by former Tampa Bay Buccaneers head coach Tony Dungy.^[40] Dungy and the team quickly changed the atmosphere of the organization and returned to the playoffs in 2002 with a 10–6 record. The Colts also returned to the playoffs in 2003 and 2004 with 12–4 records and AFC South championships. "

" During the season Manning and Marvin Harrison broke the NFL record for touchdowns by a quarterback and receiver tandem.^[4 "

[Gunz41]

4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

In order 

 

- I have not made your point.  I have given proper context. Peyton played in a wildly different offense. I can't make this one more clear - when you play QB on a run first/heavy running team, your INT are going to be THAT much more magnified and rightly so,  because you are not the engine of the offense, the running game is.  So having the luxury not being the focal point of a defensive game plan, not being the '1A' of a defensive coordinators mind and the variety of ways that coach will attack you, IS context.  I've highlighted that by showing the looks the Pats settled in against VS Baker and how he couldn't make them pay for it. I Need no further example. 

One more time - when the running game takes center stage... a running game that eases a pass rush, moves linebackers and DB's, creates plus throwing windows, and you turn the ball over at a high rate vis a vis an offense that the QB shoulders the load... yes, then a singular stat with applied context in this manner speaks a great deal to the Browns offensive issues.   I didn't feel I needed to spell that one out for you.

 

- Turnovers harm a team. Baker isn't the type of QB that digs himself out though. Mahomes had a slump earlier this season and fought his way out of it.  Mayfield kept digging his hole further down.  Good to great QB's fix their offensive issues when they present themselves over long(er) periods.

 

- re: Peytons INT, I said, in the quote - he began to cut them in half *AS EARLY* as his 2nd year.  28---->14... which he did. And in his 2nd year emerged as one of the faces of the NFL carrying on a tradition of great QB play.   He had spots throughout his 1st contract period (98-03ish) where he still had a penchant for forcing the issue at times and he took criticism for it. I even remember watching the Sportscenter episodes. After that initial contract period, Peyton was usually floating 2:1 or better regularly. That is exactly why I phrased it as such. 

 

- Don't EVER call me a fucking liar ever again because of your lack of comprehension.   My ignore list on this board is long enough already.   I'd appreciate your acknowledgement of the misunderstanding and we can move forward if we cross paths with any further talks. Fair? 

You can think you are the big bad tough guy and genius all you want, and if you want to put me on ignore, go for it. I don't post on here often for 2 reasons, one being the animosity of people on here, and the other is I have my own games to worry about. You are one of the most knowledgeable guys on here and when I do happen to get on I enjoy reading your thoughts and breakdowns.

Anyway, seems like you have been ill, hope you are back to normal soon, God Bless.

I was simply pointing out that (which you obviously didn't explain well enough), that he may have cut down on INT in 2nd year, and they then escalated AGAIN afterwards, hmm coincidently just like Baker (although 2nd, 3rd, 4th). Lies probably wasn't the correct word though Hoss, so I will apologize for the bad choice of words.

Again, you are ONLY wanting to see your POV/bias. You are making my point for me, YOU are smart enough with this game to add context, while others pointing out "he led the league ..." WEREN'T giving that context. 

Now, a little more context: Baker this year, an average of 30 passes (29.8, doesn't take into account leaving game early). 418 attempts total. 13 INT. That is one every 32.1 passes. That in 14 games. 

Year 4 Peyton was 547 attempts, which is an average of 34.1 so that is 4.3 more passes a game. Peyton had 23 INT. That is one every 23.8 passes.

So sure, Peyton was the architect of a Passing Offense, while BM has a more balanced offense he is QB of, but don't try to make it seem like it was a huge difference there, because that is just not the case.

And the thing that gets me with anyone talking about how terrible BM is doesn't seem to account for any of his regression being attributed to his health. I know I have had VERY good players of mine that played and weren't close to what they were healthy.

That doesn't mean Baker is a Top 5 QB before, it doesn't mean that some of his decision making and reads are caused by that, BUT its not nothing.

I will say it ONE more time so it isn't confused, BAKER IS NO WHERE CLOSE TO MANNING.

With all that said, I am exiting this conversation. Have a good one fellas

 

[Bob806]

On 1/9/2022 at 3:51 PM, SdBacker80 said:

 

Peyton Manning and Baker they have one thing in common they both beat Ohio St in their Senior Year of college. 

The Vols cheated with long cleats FYI, I remember it like yesterday. Here's a link or 2 to back it up.

 Long Cleats   Citrus Bowl

[LondonBrown]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:37 PM, Tour2ma said:

What are the needs you see needing to be addressed this off-season?

Ban anyone that picks up the most basic of stats from the NFL website and uses them in an argument that ruins one of your threads.....

Oh that's not what you meant by needs, in that case I will take a WR that has speed but shockingly can also use it to get open and catch the ball

[tiamat63]

10 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

 

I will say it ONE more time so it isn't confused, BAKER IS NO WHERE CLOSE TO MANNING.

With all that said, I am exiting this conversation. Have a good one fellas

 

Shortened it for you.  Later, skater.

[Flugel]

On 1/9/2022 at 8:10 PM, hoorta said:

Nah... Trying to use but... but... but...  Sorry Tom, that's trying to use outliers to make yet more excuses for Baker.  The number of quarterbacks that have faded into oblivion are 10, 20 times more than guys who turn their careers around after a mediocre start.  Shit, Colt McCoy is still bouncing around in the league, that's a far more likely career path for Mayfield as opposed to getting to Canton.  what we just witnessed was the buildup and ensuing crash of a promising Derek Anderson "almost" season followed by a big thud.  

Oh, I'm not minimizing "but he's hurt", either.  BUT I saw today Stefanski- plain as mud- had mush for brains not sitting Baker a lot sooner than he did. OMG- Keenum 100+qbr today- true, against the Bungle scrubs. But you're nuts if you want to opine he couldn't have at least gotten the Browns into the playoffs after Baker's pathetic outing against the Patriots.  And a few other shitfully horrible games that followed down the stretch worthy of an off the street free agent suckful performances.  

2022, the Browns absolutely cannot keep riding Baker the (potentially) three legged horse if he continues to play like crap.  There's already plenty of evidence from far to many quarters there's a distinct possibility even a healthy Baker has flaws opposing defensive coordinators will take advantage of.  As I opined elsewhere.  If Mayfield needs everything around him to be perfect for him to succeed- he's never going to be quite good enough to win a Super Bowl.  

If Baker comes back healthy in 2022 and looks like he did after the injury this year - I will agree it's time to move in another direction.  

As for your Cincy barometer, Baker has beaten Cincy 35-30 + 37-34 + 41-16 while you are more impressed with the Browns beating Cincy' s backups 21-16.  Got it Larry!

Anyway, a guy that can throw 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs in a season the Browns won 11 regular season games plus a 48-37 post season victory AT Pitt doesn't strike me as gotta give up on this guy as soon as possible.

Baker threw for a rookie QB record 27 TD passes to 14 INTs with only 13 starts and 1 relief effort. Not bad for a guy that was drafted by an 0-16 football team that began 0-1-1 in his rookie year plus erasing 14 point deficit to the Jets leading the Browns to a W his 1st appearance.  A team that had a 2 years stretch of 1-31 football was now 7-8-1 showing promise. Just 2 years after that, they became 11-5 with a 48-37 playoff victory over Pittsburgh.

I saw some promise that made me far more reluctant to give up on him than you. 

 

[calfoxwc]

14 hours ago, Bob806 said:

The Vols cheated with long cleats FYI, I remember it like yesterday. Here's a link or 2 to back it up.

 Long Cleats   Citrus Bowl

Interesting - that bowl game, Peyton Manning threw just one TD. Apparently, that would be a crime to some people if Baker did it .... Peyton had a wr - Joey Kent - that was good enough to be drafted in the second round by the titans. and NOBODY is saying anything about Baker being as good as Peyton Manning, btw - Peyton Manning and Bernie Kosar were the top two most brilliant quarterbacks in the NFL that ever played the game.

and, btw, Bernie Kosar had Webster Slaughter, an outstanding wr - drafted in the 2nd round, and Ozzie Newsome, obviously one of the greatest.

this is a great read on Webster:

https://www.brownsnation.com/webster-slaughter/

The Story Of Browns WR Webster Slaughter (Complete History)

Btw, Webster Slaughter was a second round pick.

I think Jalen Tolbert, S. Alabama, could be the Browns' next "Webster Slaughter".

 

14 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

You can think you are the big bad tough guy and genius all you want, and if you want to put me on ignore, go for it. I don't post on here often for 2 reasons, one being the animosity of people on here, and the other is I have my own games to worry about.

yep. There are others who feel the same way....

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

If Baker comes back healthy in 2022 and looks like he did after the injury this year - I will agree it's time to move in another direction.  

As for your Cincy barometer, Baker has beaten Cincy 35-30 + 37-34 + 41-16 while you are more impressed with the Browns beating Cincy' s backups 21-16.  Got it Larry!

Anyway, a guy that can throw 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs in a season the Browns won 11 regular season games plus a 48-37 post season victory AT Pitt doesn't strike me as gotta give up on this guy as soon as possible.

Baker threw for a rookie QB record 27 TD passes to 14 INTs with only 13 starts and 1 relief effort. Not bad for a guy that was drafted by an 0-16 football team that began 0-1-1 in his rookie year plus erasing 14 point deficit to the Jets leading the Browns to a W his 1st appearance.  A team that had a 2 years stretch of 1-31 football was now 7-8-1 showing promise. Just 2 years after that, they became 11-5 with a 48-37 playoff victory over Pittsburgh.

I saw some promise that made me far more reluctant to give up on him than you. 

 

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

If Baker comes back healthy in 2022 and looks like he did after the injury this year - I will agree it's time to move in another direction.  

As for your Cincy barometer, Baker has beaten Cincy 35-30 + 37-34 + 41-16 while you are more impressed with the Browns beating Cincy' s backups 21-16.  Got it Larry!

Anyway, a guy that can throw 26 TD passes to just 8 INTs in a season the Browns won 11 regular season games plus a 48-37 post season victory AT Pitt doesn't strike me as gotta give up on this guy as soon as possible.

Baker threw for a rookie QB record 27 TD passes to 14 INTs with only 13 starts and 1 relief effort. Not bad for a guy that was drafted by an 0-16 football team that began 0-1-1 in his rookie year plus erasing 14 point deficit to the Jets leading the Browns to a W his 1st appearance.  A team that had a 2 years stretch of 1-31 football was now 7-8-1 showing promise. Just 2 years after that, they became 11-5 with a 48-37 playoff victory over Pittsburgh.

I saw some promise that made me far more reluctant to give up on him than you. 

 

Um, I'm not totally giving up on Baker, apparently Andrew Berry hasn't. Let's hope we see the "good " Baker next season. Just pointing out there's ample reason for concern. LOL, far too many posters here want to blame his overall horrendous 2021 performance on him being injured, and at the same time not playing the injury card. (That includes  Stefanski and Berry) Mayfield's showing in the second Steelers game almost made me want to barf. In his last six games, he had four qbrs under 60. Nah, Keenum couldn't possibly have done any better. I say bullshit to that.

So from my POV, count me as being seriously pissed off that the Browns flushed the 2021 season down the toilet by adamantly continuing to trot out a lame horse when it was obvious to even a casual observer his accuracy was shot. Watch the Raiders- Chargers game?  That Herbert feller was pretty accurate and clutch. Reminds me in Baker's career, he's Mr. Anti-clutch. I believe it's something like 2-14 with the game on the line. 

[calfoxwc]

let's see....

the Chargers have...

Mike Williams, 6'4", 218 lbs, first round pick - 7th overall.

Keenan Allen, 6'2", 211, 3rd Round.

Why the Browns' offensive line was Baker Mayfield's ...

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com › lists › browns-steelers-baker-mayfield-offensive-line

When a quarterback has a disastrous game, the fault formula for that disaster is generally part quarterback, part receivers, and part offensive line. Football is the ultimate team sport, and no horrible outing is usually one person's fault. In the case of Baker Mayfield and the Cleveland Browns ...

[Neo]

On 1/8/2022 at 8:05 PM, SdBacker80 said:

Why are folks writing off Conklin???- he’s not dead!!!  He’s 27.

Jimmy Graham suffered one early in his career and was back kicking butt in 10 months. 

 

 

 

Jimmy Graham isn't 6'6 326 pounds and isn't pushing against one or two guys that weight over 300 pounds each. I get that Graham runs and blocks too but it's not his primary job.

[hoorta]

6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

let's see....

the Chargers have...

Mike Williams, 6'4", 218 lbs, first round pick - 7th overall.

Keenan Allen, 6'2", 211, 3rd Round.

Why the Browns' offensive line was Baker Mayfield's ...

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com › lists › browns-steelers-baker-mayfield-offensive-line

When a quarterback has a disastrous game, the fault formula for that disaster is generally part quarterback, part receivers, and part offensive line. Football is the ultimate team sport, and no horrible outing is usually one person's fault. In the case of Baker Mayfield and the Cleveland Browns ...

I even glanced at your article... So the o-line was the problem? Then why weren't they keeping a TE over on Hudson's side to help out on Watt? It was obvious he was no match for TJ.  Or maybe Baker needed 10 seconds back there to scratch his butt waiting for guys to break open? Sorry Cal, some of those NINE sacks were ALL on Mayfield- he had time to throw the ball into the seats.  Including one where he had a full four seconds before he got decked... That's piss poor.  

Just can't get off that top first round receiver kick huh?  And we have David Njoku 6'4" first round pick, Donovan Peoples Jones 6'2". . Just please stop.  FWIW, one of those TD passes Herbert threw had the size of a mail slot 30 yards away.  It wouldn't have mattered how tall or not the receiver was- all he had to do was catch the damn ball.  That's the point- that you continually ignore. Accuracy counts- and Baker didn't have it, with few exceptions post injury. Especially in the Steelers game where he couldn't so much as flip a 10 yard screen pass to Chubb.   

EDIT: Look- the quarterback is the engine that drives the train, not the other way around with stud wide receivers. In all likelihood, all things being equal, the Browns wouldn't be sitting at home thinking about "what ifs" now should I put Justin Herbert at the controls of Cleveland's offense.  OTOH, you could have put Jerry Rice in his prime on the Browns this year- it probably wouldn't have made a lick of difference, not with Baker throwing the ball  ten feet over his head.    

[Orion]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

Um, I'm not totally giving up on Baker, apparently Andrew Berry hasn't.

How do you know that Berry hasn't given up on Baker?  Based on his press conference?   He certainly wouldn't be able to say anything about replacing Baker in front of a camera and microphone.  That would make things a HUGE mess.  It would drive up the trade value of any veteran QB Berry might inquire about.  It would devalue Baker more than he already is.  And if Berry wasn't able to do anything at QB it would make Baker being the starter again next year ANOTHER mess.  The fact is, we don't know what's going on in their minds and behind closed doors.  

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Orion said:

How do you know that Berry hasn't given up on Baker?  Based on his press conference?   He certainly wouldn't be able to say anything about replacing Baker in front of a camera and microphone.  That would make things a HUGE mess.  It would drive up the trade value of any veteran QB Berry might inquire about.  It would devalue Baker more than he already is.  And if Berry wasn't able to do anything at QB it would make Baker being the starter again next year ANOTHER mess.  The fact is, we don't know what's going on in their minds and behind closed doors.  

OK, I'll buy your point Orion.  But some of the stuff going on here about trading Baker for XXX is crackhead talk.  I know- and I hope you do too- Baker is damaged goods, and isn't worth a sack of seeds right now in trade value.   

[SdBacker80]

7 hours ago, Neo said:

Jimmy Graham isn't 6'6 326 pounds and isn't pushing against one or two guys that weight over 300 pounds each. I get that Graham runs and blocks too but it's not his primary job.

But Jimmy Graham needed to get separation on coverage and occasionally block some of the best athletes (DE) pound for pound on the field.

 

[SdBacker80]

7 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

let's see....

the Chargers have...

Mike Williams, 6'4", 218 lbs, first round pick - 7th overall.

Keenan Allen, 6'2", 211, 3rd Round.

Why the Browns' offensive line was Baker Mayfield's ...

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com › lists › browns-steelers-baker-mayfield-offensive-line

When a quarterback has a disastrous game, the fault formula for that disaster is generally part quarterback, part receivers, and part offensive line. Football is the ultimate team sport, and no horrible outing is usually one person's fault. In the case of Baker Mayfield and the Cleveland Browns ...

Let’s just draft another offensive lineman in the first round and make another lineman the highest paid at his position….that should fix Bakers problems

[Orion]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

I know- and I hope you do too-

I do.

...and I don't think Trubisky or Mariotta is much of an upgrade if any over Baker.  I also don't think we'll draft a starting QB for 2022 either.  Nor do I think the odds are very high that we will trade for Garapppolllo, Carr or Wilson.  So I'm hoping that Baker heals up well, matures 10 years and grows 3 inches so he won't throw the ball over receiver's heads.  ( I personally believe that Baker misses high sometimes because he's trying to throw over the linemen while throwing it hard in order to get the ball to the receiver quickly )

I DO think that Baker does a nice job on the commercials and that he might actually have a shot at an acting gig after football.

[calfoxwc]

12 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Let’s just draft another offensive lineman in the first round and make another lineman the highest paid at his position….that should fix Bakers problems

LOL. No, no, no. The guy I drafted - all 345 lbs of him - should learn behind Conklin for a year, or until he gets hurt again maybe.

 

[hoorta]

17 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

Let’s just draft another offensive lineman in the first round and make another lineman the highest paid at his position….that should fix Bakers problems

Don't remember where I saw it- but one commentator had a thing he called "The Dalton Scale"... Let's put Dandy Andy somewhere around 15th or so of NFL starting quarterbacks.  If you have someone better... You have your Franchise Quarterback.  Lower? Maybe you should start looking for a replacement.   

Well, in their final ranking of NFL QBs- they had Baker at #24 (don't think I would even have had him rated that high).   Here's what they had to say about Baker...

"I'm tired of trying to tease out the impact of Mayfield's shoulder injury on his 2021 play, which took a gigantic step back. He was medically cleared to play each week. Quarterbacks play through injuries often and are evaluated with that in mind. Some excel. Some manage the injury enough to be average. Mayfield, a little better than average when healthy, became a liability. I worry that Baker doesn't have any major plus traits to compensate when his surroundings or his body aren't 100 percent. His biggest shortcomings -- holding the ball too long, converting pressure into sacks and not seeing the field -- have remained consistent throughout his career."

Ya know- I 100% agree with that evaluation, & worry about the BOLD too...  Here's the entire article for your reading enjoyment, I have little I'd argue about...   https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings