Baker Mayfield

[tiamat63]

@ 5:05 in that tape from Warner is the flood I broke down that was a good design and a good read/throw by Baker. 

Sounds silly, but I feel very great about my analysis when I see things a HoF is also seeing.

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 This might be the same video as the one that gives the video not available Flash. If so here it is again

WSS 

this is excellent stuff. I do have my own observation - about Baker's 4 step drop back instead of 3. Baker has a foot injury, so maybe? he can't forcefully use that foot to make the initial step, so he used his right foot instead. Outside of that, pretty convincing appraisal by an expert.

[Flugel]

21 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

@ 5:05 in that tape from Warner is the flood I broke down that was a good design and a good read/throw by Baker. 

Sounds silly, but I feel very great about my analysis when I see things a HoF is also seeing.

I know what you mean. I said the same thing when Blutarsky said "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

[tiamat63]

44 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I know what you mean. I said the same thing when Blutarsky said "was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"

"Germans?"....

"Forget it, he's rolling".

[Flugel]

19 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

this is excellent stuff. I do have my own observation - about Baker's 4 step drop back instead of 3. Baker has a foot injury, so maybe? he can't forcefully use that foot to make the initial step, so he used his right foot instead. Outside of that, pretty convincing appraisal by an expert.

Believe it or not, Josh Heupel added steps to the QB dropback from the  shotgun formation at Oklahoma.  This leads me to wonder when this habit actually evolved with Baker.  If it's not a great thing for the NFL as we've witnessed on many occasions - it shouldn't be impossible to coach Baker out of that habit.  

I don't ever see any of our coaches on game day taking a seat next to Baker in between series to adjust.  Think about NE in comparison, whoever starts/started at QB there has OC Josh McDaniel reviewing overheads and discussing adjustments in between series.  That even included a veteran like Tom Brady.  Even though Baker is in his 4th year - this isn't exactly his 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th different offense/OC.  For some reason, now that Stefanski has his dream job title of HC - he only wants to be an OC while I see a bunch of areas of the team that need better coaching.  Why not get Alex Van Pelt down on the sidelines to work with Baker when things go wrong on game day?   Seems a lot better than waiting until Monday and then sweeping it under the rug as part of another rinse and repeat.

[Gorka]

At 8:45 it demonstrates Bakers lack of field awareness.

He's focused entirely on Landry as Hooper breaks open. There was no need to double clutch.

Pause it at 9:29. How the fuck does anyone not see that?

 

[tiamat63]

39 minutes ago, Gorka said:

At 8:45 it demonstrates Bakers lack of field awareness.

He's focused entirely on Landry as Hooper breaks open. There was no need to double clutch.

Pause it at 9:29. How the fuck does anyone not see that?

 

I have both those plays along with a couple more broken down and sitting on my desktop.  Out watching the HOU-CIN game now, I'll post them later.

[tiamat63]

  Far be it from me to argue with a HoF QB, but I don't think he's watched all the games of Baker that I have.  There's no way given his videos. Because sample size means... so very much.   You wouldn't believe Peyton Manning would be a future HoF QB based on a couple games his rookie season when he set the rookie QB INT record.   Likewise you wouldn't/won't be able to have a better command of the shortcomings that plague the Browns 2021 season without watching ALL of their games.   

There are plays in that video I noticed Kurt simply glossed over for reasons I still don't understand?   BAD plays too... shit that would be a red flag and speaks to some of the themes I've been mentioning.  I get he doesn't believe that everything  is Baker's fault, but he almost made it sound like the things that were within his control could be excused.  Sadly, a lot of them cannot.    Theme's from the Ravens game showed up like themes from previous bad games.   

 

- Bakers pre-determination of his throws, especially to the boundary

- His pension for leading receivers into traffic

- Not reading obvious pre-snap and post snap defensive cue's. 

 

Example 1.

One of the man-beaters Stef called up.   You get a trio stack to the field and some obvious man coverage tips pre-snap.  But I get you can't lock on pre-snap. So you double check a couple things like high safety alignment (inside hash but favoring near side)     Point man (DB on the trio lead) and who is picking up Hunt should he release.

 

The man beater is a sort of mesh concept.  It creates a nature pick against man coverage AND - Kareem releases across the face of Baker.  So the Backer that was previous to his right has declared man coverage.   Safety is still high and outside your primary with DB's playing the pick poorly and not "leveling" their coverages correctly.

 

The problem is how LONG Baker held onto this ball for.

When I say that ball should be OUT, I mean as in the windup should have started and zipped.  This would allow for MAX YAC in a game that would come down to a score.

You'll notice the 2 DB's that carried the vertical route?  The ball being out on time allows for max YAC because their eyes aren't back and in recovery to limit damage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instead the ball comes out late and is caught just outside the numbers.

The 2 DB's that were carrying vertical got their eyes back, and are already driving to the sticks.

 

 

 

 

 

It was a first down and again, I can't argue with results.  But Kurt in the video linked in his very first play complimented Baker's choice of hitting a slant/curl combo.   BUT, even though he gave Baker a compliment, noticed the timing was rather "meh".   Even in ok plays, there are still things that show they need cleaning up.    This is in that exact same line of thinking.  This sort of thing could take an ok play and allow max expected yards.   This just isn't operating the offense to your fullest potential on this design.  

What's worse is that it isn't a vertical throw, so it's hard to say "Baker can't throw deep, he's hurt".  Sure.  This is all with Bakers eyes and mind, and they're not a fast as a HOF QB would prefer to see at this time.  That's the "gist" I'm feeling from Warner when he says things like that.   Or as coach Saban said "You compliment the car, but don't see the oil leak that we do".

 

 

 

 

 

[tiamat63]

A few more that REALLY bother me.

The high throw and drop by DPJ early?  Never had to be that way.  

 

Baker had a rollout with double TE to that side right in front of him and a Corner + Safety that had thrown a bracket on DPJ.   Hoop looked back for the throw, before this frame Njoku looked up field for someone to block before looking back expecting the ball to go to Hoop.   

Yes, reads dominantly go deep to short.  But this is an example of making the game harder than it has to be.  This is a convoy in front of you with a big lane opening for, what would likely have been, a HUGE early TD utilizing close space and the short passing game.

 

Instead, Baker plants and fires back across field to the far side hash.  Ball arrives high and the DB gets a good hit before DPJ can reel the ball into his body for security.

 

 

[tiamat63]

3 of 4.  This sort of foreshadows what Gorka mentioned above with things Kurt didn't bring up.  But Juice was in the backfield earlier and Baker didn't utilize him.

 

He gets motioned from the trio to a split to the right just outside of the RT.    Buckeye fans, this should look familiar.  Google "shot-Ginn" from 2004, 2005 and 2006.   This isn't some radical concept.  Giving a receiver quick in short space a free release is always the goal regardless of the formation.    The motion brought along no DB, so this would tend to tip off some type of zone coverage.    

 

Baker getting locked into the boundary (again) to Chubb.  His read to this side isn't terrible, that isn't a problem I suppose.  He wants Chubb to the flat before the linebacker can zone expand and pick him up.  Makes sense, should be an easy pitch and catch...

 

 

Except instead of making a routine and easy short throw.  Baker doesn't set his feet, doesn't square, nothing.  He drifts back, gives a slight hop and uses his arm like a trebuchet.  Because of this, his hips over rotate along with the rest of his torso.  So instead of the ball being in an ideal place for your RB who isn't the most gifted athlete in this sense...  You've given him a rock and a hard place.

 

The ball ends up high and wide.... AfuckingGain.   

Only Baker knows it because he does this little dance and chest tap.

At the bottom I highlighted that Landry got picked up by the safety while the low hole defender drifted to his right (Bakers left) leaving a lot of useable space underneath and to Bakers right.    Go back and check my previous posts... notice I mention Baker just doesn't utilize all that is given to him?  Bryant up the seam on square in to his right against cover 2 is just another example in a long line of either pre-determinations and/or bad throws.    The safety is going to give Juice space out of the backfield because nobody checked him on his release.  Free release is a WR and QB's dream.

 

 

[tiamat63]

4 of 4   The House call that wasn't.

Pre-determination.  This is, in a nutshell, what I'm talking about.

Pre-snap Baker is convinced he has man coverage the whole way.  You can't blame him in a sense, Ravens showed man coverage a good deal to this point.  But you also know they love to poker bluff you and invite throws into coverage.   Post snap is everything.  If you make a good pre-snap read, your post snap will justify that mindfulness.

The yellow highlights what I believe Baker thought, the red shows a 2 zone if that boundary safety drops.  Also shows cover 1 being possible if that field safety shades just inside the hash.  Could be a split field coverage as well like qtr/qtr/half (cover 6)  Point being, you're not psychic.  You don't know until you know.

 

Instead...  Well... yeah.  The WHOLE way.

Bakers eyes never left this.

 

Baker gripped and ripped this out/curl to DPJ without even so much as a 2nd thought.   Instead of it being man coverage, it looks like some form of quarters.  

 

 

Qtrs assignments.

Now I admit giving it a 3rd look before posting, that could be cover 6 because the boundary CB is playing cover 2 rules - he's getting hands on the WR, routing him inside then getting eyes back and trailing underneath him.  Either way, my point still stands.  Marlon was a flat expand in either C6 or quarters and Baker never bothered to read what was offered to him.   Instead of finding Juice open on the safety who was reading him as the #2 and driving on the route.  You can tell from the voided space all Baker has to do is anticipate this window after a read and fire into voided space to possibly have a shot at moving the chains.

 

But Baker bombs one.... WAIT FOR IT... HIGH AND WIDE.   

 Actually, of all the times Baker has done this, this was the best time.  Because if this throw was anywhere inside on where his intended target was, Marlon Humphrey is grabbing it and walking it all the way back to the crib.  

 

 

I know you guys don't want to hear this, but the Browns have a QB problem at the moment.    Sure, like Kurt said, it isn't ALL on Baker.   But the bulk of it is.   The tackles HAVE to be elite because of the space and depth he requires in the pocket.  So you need amazing protection in comparison to other QB's that don't require his vision for throwing lanes.   You need tall targets with insane catch radius because Baker has a documented history of missing high and or high/wide.     You need a Shanahan play caller who is football genius to cover up the smells of Bakers questionable reads.  Things he does FAR too often to be labeled an elite QB.

Most of you are twice my age.  I was raised on stories of Bernie being a brilliant QB.   A QB who overcame his wonky throwing motion and ostrich physical measurements by being smart and accurate.   Baker is quite literally his polar opposite right now.    Mayfield has a ridiculously live arm, but (as of typing this) absolute SHIT for brains, eyes and ball placement.

 

There is no whiny ass podcast you can link with a dumb rant from some nerd, or anyone else that hasn't watched 4 years worth of games who ISN'T giving you this type of analysis that should be convincing you otherwise.       Baker is the majority of this teams issue as of right now.   *shrug* 

[Dutch Oven]

And this is the stretch run of Baker's second season under Stefanski. 

It is going to be very interesting to see how the Browns handle Baker's impending free agency. 

The continued insistence of the coaching staff and Berry that Baker is healthy enough to play almost makes a person think that privately they all have concluded that a lot of the production problems stem from his limitations, and not his injuries. 

[calfoxwc]

Baker is hurt. But he could still make things happen if he had more than one wr who is able to regular get open.

Peyton Manning wasn't very mobile - I don't believe HE could get our wr's open (except for Landry).

  Again - I posted where Barfsonhisblooger was missing open recievers, etc etc.

Wr's not being up to par is not an excuse. It's a fact. (except for Landry, lol).

Baker is part of the problem mostly because he has injuries. But it isn't all on him.

BTW, Kurt Warner is a nerd?

    This coaching staff knows their football - it's a complicated team game. They are learning what they can and can't do. I still say they went with Baker with injuries because he is best able to make good with the wr's they have - but I would have started Case Keenum.

Now, Keenum - Stefanski KNOWS him. and they start Baker. I don't get that.

But saying it's mostly on Baker is dumb. I guess the huge win over Cincy was not all on Baker?

Simply put - the ravens shut down the run, and played a lot of man to man because the Browns receivers are not

scary. So, Hance was having trouble with the all out pass rush, he plays on the right side, and Hooper was open on the right side.

I just think if any of us were standing in Baker's place, we wouldn't have seen Hooper either.

Remember the Browns-Bengals score? 41-16? Huge Browns win? Same Baker. Different defense. Our wide receivers could get open.

Browns-Cincy - Chubb had 137 yards rushing. Vs the ratbirds, Chubb had sixteen yards rushing.

Passing vs Cincy?

D. Peoples-Jones 2 86 1 60 3 N. Chubb 2 26 0 23 2 H. Bryant 2 26 0 21 2 D. Felton 1 22 0 22 1 D. Njoku 1 18 1 18 3 A. Schwartz 1 15 0 15 1 A. Hooper 2 14 0 11 2 J. Landry 3 11 0 7 5
Landry, vs the ratbirds - was targeted ten times - could only catch 6 - for 111 yards. Meanwhile, I don't believe Wills is playing at 100%. Conklin is out. Simply put - the ratbirds have a secondary that can cover the Browns wr's, the Bengals could not, even while not stacking the box. Replacing Baker does not solve the wr problem - and the Browns coaches know that.

[lodilobo]

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of. 

[nickers]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:13 AM, lodilobo said:

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of. 

This is where Kevin Stefanski and AVP have to prove themselves as caretakers of the QB and his development.. They are , or can be just as responsible for the growth of a player as the player himself.. This is where they earn their paycheck so to speak... It goes deeper than what happens on gameday...

 

 

Also... At the risk of sounding racist.. I will also say... The NFL and Roger "Creampuff" Goodell and the Woke seem hell bent on glorifying the Black athlete just to appease them...

[Canton Dawg]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:13 AM, lodilobo said:

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of. 

 

[tiamat63]

On 12/6/2021 at 7:13 AM, lodilobo said:

There's a double standard here, and it's fueled by the media. I guess Mayfield's attitude just rubs people the wrong way. Looking at the stats, and comparing him to Lamar Jackson proves this. Mayfield has had 4 games with a qb rating over 100, Jackson has 1. Mayfield's qb rating for the season is higher than Jackson's and has been that way all season. Yet, these dumb ass commentators and so called experts still consider lamar Jackson "elite". I don't see it. He's an exceptional running back who is very elusive and can out run the defense. He's really not a very good qb. Baker isn't stupid...he knows he's being tagged unfairly as a mediocre qb. He has a fragile ego, and he's starting to believe this crap himself. I just hope he can find his way back to playing at the level he's capable of. 

It's possible that both Lamar and Baker are performing like mediocre QB's.   This isn't a mutually exclusive deal.

[mjp28]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

It's possible that both Lamar and Baker are performing like mediocre QB's.   This isn't a mutually exclusive deal.

Could be TRUE but I think that Baker Mayfield's performance maybe more physical injuries affecting his performance  than some 4th year thing.  I think that he's still a good gunslinger QB on the move guy.   HOF QB eh probably not unless he can hang around for a long time.

Injuries too to dependable Landy, questionable OBJ and others.    It's not all the quarterback good or bad.

On MVP Jackson I think it's just the inevitable decline of a running QB in the NFL.  It's rare when they last as long as Vick and others.

I think most fans will agree LJ is a running back that plays quarterback.

 

[hoorta]

On 12/4/2021 at 11:29 PM, tiamat63 said:

A few more that REALLY bother me.

The high throw and drop by DPJ early?  Never had to be that way.  

Baker had a rollout with double TE to that side right in front of him and a Corner + Safety that had thrown a bracket on DPJ.   Hoop looked back for the throw, before this frame Njoku looked up field for someone to block before looking back expecting the ball to go to Hoop.   

Yes, reads dominantly go deep to short.  But this is an example of making the game harder than it has to be.  This is a convoy in front of you with a big lane opening for, what would likely have been, a HUGE early TD utilizing close space and the short passing game.

 

Instead, Baker plants and fires back across field to the far side hash.  Ball arrives high and the DB gets a good hit before DPJ can reel the ball into his body for security.

Blown coverage, and Baker ignored it.      Had Hoop or Njoku open for a probable touchdown, no Raven within 10 yards of them. . I've pointed this out more than once. 

[calfoxwc]

all quarterbacks make mistakes. Especially when their wr's are not getting open. And, even Tom Brady doesn't see wrs that are open at times. It's a team game. Baker isn't perfect. No nfl qb is perfect. That makes Baker average? yikes !

***************************************

"I Saw Six Times That Mike Evans Was Open" - JoeBucsFan ...

https://www.joebucsfan.com › 2021 › 11 › i-saw-six-times-that-mike-evans-was-open

Yes, Brady was quick to look short, despite Washington being down its two best edge rushers and lacking a superstar in their secondary. Joe saw one short throw in the red zone to Giovani Bernard while Mike Evans was wide open in the end zone. Strange day for Brady. Joe doesn't expect to see much more of that. Follow.

***************************************

Patrick Mahomes: 'There are plays where guys are open that ...

https://www.msn.com › en-us › sports › nfl › patrick-mahomes-there-are-plays-where-guys-are-open-that-im-not-hitting › ar-AAQyMUe

On first down in the second quarter, Mahomes gives a play-action fake and comes out of it looking for the big play. He attempts a bomb to wide receiver Mecole Hardman, who can't work around the ...

 

https://brobible.com/sports/article/tom-brady-throws-mind-boggling-pick-six-interception-before-halftime-against-falcons/

https://brobible.com/sports/article/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-retire/

 

[calfoxwc]

https://www.bengals.com/news/quick-hits-burrow-takes-blame-for-pick-six-and-everything-else-tackling-hurts-de

"Burrow's 11 interceptions now lead the NFL. "

EDIT:

Let's look at Burrow's wide receivers:

Ja'marr Chase, FIRST ROUND, PICK 5

Tee HIggins - SECOND ROUND, Mid Round

Tyler Boyd - SECOND ROUND, late

and still, Burrow ...at least was leading the NFL in interceptions?

and Baker is only "average"

what a bunch of hooey.

The Browns need to upgrade their wide receivers and let Baker get healthy.

 

[nickers]

Just now, Gorka said:

 

Warner sounds like a Baker apologist.

I'd like for another HOF QB do the same analysis. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ripped Warners analysis apart.

Go to 6:10

Warner completely poo poo's the 2 wide open guys at the top of the screen with "yes they're open but"... That had TD written all over it.  No defender gonna catch up.

 

I've seen plenty of games where I've seen Elway leave guys open... so theres that...

[Gorka]

1 hour ago, nickers said:

I've seen plenty of games where I've seen Elway leave guys open... so theres that...

Oh I'm sure every QB has left guys wide open. But like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if another HOF QB tore Warners analysis to shreds. Thats the nature of this business.

Another head scratcher.

At 7:44.

How does Warner know for sure this play was designed for Chubb to run the flat route? Some plays are designed for the receiver to be at or near the first down marker, and thats exactly where Chubb was heading. I'd bet a thousand bucks that Chubb ran the play the way it was designed. 

The most absurd comment by Warner was when he said Baker was jumping up and down because Chubb didn't run the flat route. What??

Baker was jumping up and down in frustration over a near catch that was slightly overthrown, not because Chubb didn't take the flat route. Stupid comment.

Had he caught it, it would have set up 2nd and a couple feet, not 3rd and short as Warner indicated.

 

[mjp28]

And.......

[tiamat63]

2 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Could be TRUE but I think that Baker Mayfield's performance maybe more physical injuries affecting his performance  than some 4th year thing.  I think that he's still a good gunslinger QB on the move guy.   HOF QB eh probably not unless he can hang around for a long time.

Injuries too to dependable Landy, questionable OBJ and others.    It's not all the quarterback good or bad.

On MVP Jackson I think it's just the inevitable decline of a running QB in the NFL.  It's rare when they last as long as Vick and others.

I think most fans will agree LJ is a running back that plays quarterback.

 

The only problem is the evidence to the contrary in both cases.

I've highlighted problems with Bakers decision making pre and post injury. 

Bakers injured have further limited his mobility and accuracy on the run. There is also some majors misses from him in crucial situations on the move as well.

To further that point, when this office wanted to turn Baker into a "gunslinger", we were treated to the 2019 season with bipolar levels of play and a high turnover ratio. 

For all the complaints about Stef and excessive use of 13 personnel, those same people complaining forget that Bakers emergence his rookie year coincided with Freddie cutting down the offense, going TE heavy and Chubb bursting onto the scene. 

[Bob806]

39 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The only problem is the evidence to the contrary in both cases.

I've highlighted problems with Bakers decision making pre and post injury. 

Bakers injured have further limited his mobility and accuracy on the run. There is also some majors misses from him in crucial situations on the move as well.

To further that point, when this office wanted to turn Baker into a "gunslinger", we were treated to the 2019 season with bipolar levels of play and a high turnover ratio. 

For all the complaints about Stef and excessive use of 13 personnel, those same people complaining forget that Bakers emergence his rookie year coincided with Freddie cutting down the offense, going TE heavy and Chubb bursting onto the scene. 

Yeah, I'm in the 1st row of the upper deck. Great seats to see a play develop. Sometimes I see what you posted above (guys being open, not seeing it). 

I love Baker, but I'm worried. His real strength as a QB is the play action & rollout. The injuries have basically forced the coaching staff to eliminate or dramatically reduce those plays. That's why they're struggling to score, sustain drives. 

The biggest game of his career was the playoff game in Pittsburgh, until now. The Browns & Baker need to step up vs a vulnerable Ratbird team on Sunday. I'm an optimist, so I think the Browns come out fired up & win it....if they don't, well this forum & sports talk radio is going to get real ugly.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

all quarterbacks make mistakes. Especially when their wr's are not getting open. And, even Tom Brady doesn't see wrs that are open at times. It's a team game. Baker isn't perfect. No nfl qb is perfect. That makes Baker average? yikes !

***************************************

"I Saw Six Times That Mike Evans Was Open" - JoeBucsFan ...

https://www.joebucsfan.com › 2021 › 11 › i-saw-six-times-that-mike-evans-was-open

Yes, Brady was quick to look short, despite Washington being down its two best edge rushers and lacking a superstar in their secondary. Joe saw one short throw in the red zone to Giovani Bernard while Mike Evans was wide open in the end zone. Strange day for Brady. Joe doesn't expect to see much more of that. Follow.

***************************************

Patrick Mahomes: 'There are plays where guys are open that ...

https://www.msn.com › en-us › sports › nfl › patrick-mahomes-there-are-plays-where-guys-are-open-that-im-not-hitting › ar-AAQyMUe

On first down in the second quarter, Mahomes gives a play-action fake and comes out of it looking for the big play. He attempts a bomb to wide receiver Mecole Hardman, who can't work around the ...

 

https://brobible.com/sports/article/tom-brady-throws-mind-boggling-pick-six-interception-before-halftime-against-falcons/

https://brobible.com/sports/article/ben-roethlisberger-pittsburgh-steelers-retire/

 

Cal just please stop your mantra our receivers aren't good enough... They are, but Baker doesn't see them, or notice that they're wide freaking open, and forces the ball into double or triple coverage instead.... At a frequency that's below par for the very top QBs.... 

Tia is writing a book in this thread on how Baker is having serious problems with post snap adjustments. Oh, and he's missing a ton of throws high and wide? Because he's injured? Then take a seat, and let Keenum play.  

Last three games... QBR  79, 53, 56.  That sucks, FYI...  That level of performance, and extend the guy at $35 million? You have got to be kidding. Make all the excuses for Baker you want to. It seems like Stefanski is going to ride his three legged horse right out of the playoffs.  

[calfoxwc]

5 hours ago, hoorta said:

Oh, and he's missing a ton of throws high and wide? Because he's injured? Then take a seat, and let Keenum play.  

There, that part I like and agree with. And no, I won't stop with talking about the wr's.

The Browns most certainly know that Keenum will have the same problems that Baker has.

drops. Wide receivers that don't get open often. I think they have given up on HIggins. When he does see Njoku wide open in the end zone....Njoku drops the throw because he held it out there for the defender to slap the ball out of his hands.

   I saw barfsonhislooger not see his wr/te all alone in the end zone. Do you want to say he is "average" ???

Peyton Manning threw 4 ints in a playoff game. Did he become "average" ??? NO. his receivers were outmatched, couldn't get open at that level of defensive competition.

I already posted where Tom Brady threw an incredibly dumb int just a few? games ago.

Did he all of a sudden become "average" ? NO.

Landry is fine. He gets two defenders a lot.

and Hoorta, it isn't just me saying it. BTW, I fully expect Jamarcus Bradley to see some serious playing time. Like Landry, he has some speed to get open, catches the ball like crazy. It doesn't do much good for Higgins and a couple of other wr's on the Browns to get open after the pocket starts to close. Bradley can get open quick, as can Landry.

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Browns Poor Return on Investment at Wide Receiver ...

https://www.msn.com › en-us › sports › nfl › browns-poor-return-on-investment-at-wide-receiver-impossible-to-ignore-after-loss-to-steelers › ar-AAQav7y

After an extremely poor performance by Cleveland Browns wide receivers against the Pittsburgh Steelers, it puts the focus on how poor the return on investment the Browns have gotten from their top ...

Cleveland Browns Bye Week: Looking at 2022 First Round ...

https://www.yardbarker.com › nfl › articles › cleveland_browns_bye_week_looking_at_2022_first_round_wide_receivers › s1_16697_36587735

If this season has taught the 6-6 Cleveland Browns anything, it's that the team desperately needs help at wide receiver. The team's leading wide receiver has 356 yards and that is Jarvis Landry.

The Future of the Browns' Wide Receiver Corps - Mesh Point ...

https://meshpointscouting.com › cleveland-browns › cleveland-browns-future-wide-receiver-corps

Thanks to the Browns' 41-16 victory, their season is back on track, and while there's work to do, the playoffs are still very much in play. But no matter how the rest of the season goes, the Browns' wide receiver corps is going to need some serious remodeling.

 

[calfoxwc]

btw:

OBR Analytics: Offseason Targets at Wide Receiver

https://247sports.com › nfl › cleveland-browns › LongFormArticle › Cleveland-Browns-Wide-Receiver-Targets-Free-Agency-Draft-177488168

As a unit, the Browns wide receiver corps has accounted for only 53 percent of the team's targets and rank in the bottom of many statistical categories, including positive play percentage (49.4 ...

[tiamat63]

You'll probably see me use the phrase "bad math" quiet a bit.  Because it's possible to arrive at the right answer, but your work be incorrect.     Incorrect work, in the long run, leads to REALLY wrong answers.  If you're just barely getting by with the subject you have now, then you aren't ready for more advanced work.     Baker and his play is sort of that mantra for me right now.   

The cincy game was the week after OBJ was launched out of CLE.  A game where a large part of the Browns base felt things would just come together and the offense would hum like it did for the better part of the 2nd half of the season last year.   That cincy game ended up being fool's gold (a bit part of the reason I didn't chime in after the win, was busying watching what I saw and trying to make sense of it)   This play sort of encapsulates almost every other play I've broken down that involves our QB being the primary cause of that singular mis-fire in the moment.   Only difference is... it was a completed pass.       It was a right answer to a question, but with bad work that lead to the answer.   Allow me to explain.

 

What you love to see from the Browns... more empty sets.

At the field (top) you have a bunch trio.   At the bottom you have a z on a narrow split from the Y.    That's Felton at the Z, FYI.

Generally when facing trips bunch like that, at the top you'll get man coverage on the point man (lead in the bunch) and the DB's will play a switch of some kind.  Some call it banjo, some call it shadow, we called it sin. (switch if needed)  Pattern matching coverage that usually involves 1st out, 1st in, 2nd out, 2nd in so on and so forth.

 

 

This motion which puts the duo in a stack with Felton just behind Hoop.   A couple adjustments can come from this look, one being a sight adjust to a little smoke with a TE as your lead.  Provided the 2nd defender is well off the ball.      You see the linebacker put his hand out and tag his DB in man coverage on Hoop.   So there will be no pass off, man coverage. 

Baker likely knows he has man.  But this is where I mentioned he gets in trouble because his homework isn't done here.  You've got a man match at the top, man at the bottom, but you have a low hole defender sitting right across from you who is going to be your +1 you have to account for.  

 

 

This is called a return route.  Return because it breaks out then back in to positive field... aka, returning inside.

Pivot would be if this was leveraged inside then quickly back out to draw away underneath coverage to the sidelines.  Slot pivot was/is a VERY popular concept anyone in Ohio should be familiar with.  It was a staple urban meyer brought with him to tOSU.  Anywho...  it's simple enough.  

 

Hoop on the man coverage is going to run the point man (DB) upfield.    Felton is going to eat cushion, break out sharp underneath Hoop and force that linebacker to commit outside.  Then he's going to plant that foot, flip his hips and to flat back inside.     Very straight forward man coverage beater which Baker reads right with this 2 on 2...  to an extent.

Go back and double check where I mentioned Baker failed to correctly read that double seam against the Pats and his Eyes drew the single high safety to the side of the field he wanted.   He never looked anywhere else and when he did finally check for the safety, the ball would have been late and the simulated pressure NE dialed up started to make him shuffle his feet.   Point being, Bakers eyes are drawing the +1 zone defender, the low backer who is looking for anything that might cross his face or snap shallow to the short side (preferably)  

You have to account for this man because this is how you get a throw robbed.

 

Below you'll see what Felton excels at and the situational matchups you can get with him when you face teams that like to play man coverage or where you can force man coverage.      It was a great route, the linebacker was forced to overcommit and Felton has won back inside.  With one tiny problem... Baker never looked for the low hole defender.    Because you don't have to go back far to see me mention he loves throwing his receivers into problems... into traffic.  This is just another throw in a long line of that mentality.   One that won't make him many friends with his pass catchers.

 

 

The ball arrived and it was on by inches at best.   No, this wasn't some big time gunslinger throw.  So I'm going to get ahead your first thought on that one... you're wrong. This was good fortune at best and below average linebacker play.  I believe that's Logan Wilson? Pretty decent player.  If he didn't shuffle so much laterally and peaked back to his right shoulder at a route that never came his way, then it's bad news.   If this is Luke Keuchly it's picked AND going the other way.   Devin White, Roquan Smith, Fred Warning, Bobby Wagner, etc etc.  Good linebackers get hands on this ball.

Funny thing is, the LB had the bead on this throw the whole way.  He just biffed it completely, it's one of those you hate yourself for because you SEE it coming and just freeze.

 

 

 

 

For how well this game turned out I'm noticing a few things.

- Positive game script.  Running game was working, pass pro wasn't anywhere near an issue because of it.

- Coaches tossed up a few soft balls and Baker cranked them out

- The looks Baker did have explosive gains on (15+ yards) were either heavy play action or your more "vanilla" man coverage looks, a couple of them like the cover 1 you see in the pictures I posted above.

 

The bland stuff isn't an issue for Mayfield, especially when Chubb and Hunt get going.  Really isn't an issue for most any starting NFL QB, even the average to below average ones.   But where Baker falls apart is when he goes from "too easy" to "guessing" - which is really him having to think.   The midfield "squat" in the 1/3 zones by the CB's from HOU and NE are actually some great examples I gave.   Mayfield still elects to use short sides of the field where he only believes there will be less traffic.   But as we've seen starting the 2nd half of the year, that isn't always the case.

I would think that if Baker takes a few of those cheap yardage throws decisively and not as a foundational play (again, such as against NE and HOU) that it would go a long way to helping decipher these coverages as best as possible.   More importantly, taking your safer, smarter throws will possibly force more clear definitions of how a defense should declare themselves instead of throwing these more "muddled" zone depths at him.    An educated guess I have, I suppose.    But it's the perimeter throws that have clearly made Baker noticeably uncomfortable for some time now.