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35 minutes ago, Neo said:

How'd that work out for the Rams?

It worked out well. The Rams ended up scoring 28 points. And their defense only gave them one turnover, unlike the four gifted to Baker last night. Another idiot to add to my ignore list. 

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13 minutes ago, BernieSuperBowl2 said:

It worked out well. The Rams ended up scoring 28 points. And their defense only gave them one turnover, unlike the four gifted to Baker last night. Another idiot to add to my ignore list. 

Fine. Buh bye👋

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2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 The only reason to sit him now would be for the rest of the season and beyond. That means you or whoever thinks that Case Keenum gives us the best chance to win  from here out.. Could be.  If so Keenum is your man going forward.

 If not then it's a purely prophylactic move and they are signing off on the rest of the season.

WSS 

Not at all.   Continuing to play an injured QB who is further regressing because of said injury, and any more shots later in the season will likely delay his recovery period.... is a prophylactic move.

Keenum isn't "my guy".  But he presents the most logical solution for the time being that keeps this team competitive without having the injury risk Baker is currently dealing with.  We aren't far removed from the days of hardly beating anyone.  This team has won games in spite of QB play this season, that trend can continue.

Baker playing is just spinning wheels for the sake of "toughness".    I admire his grit, I truly do.  But at some point we have to say to ourselves we need to shut it down for the sake of the betterment on long term health.   After all, is that not what we're here for?  Baker would be ideal as the Browns long-term QB solution, no?    We risk making that evaluation even more difficult by continuing to walk him out there.   

 

 

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1 hour ago, Neo said:

But it is a fireable offense. The handling of Baker, letting the OBJ situation get out of hand and leading to his outright release, the many penalties we have incurred the past few games including last night's debacle. 

These are things coaches are meant to curtail, at least good ones do.

SHOW OF HANDS

Who thinks we could have won last night's game with a healthy Keenum with that defensive showing?🖐

Good coaches make tough decisions.

So Coach of the Year last year with injuries galore will get fired end of season?  

I don’t expect perfection especially under the circumstances this year but he’s had some games where play calling have been brought into question, players speaking out about the DC and some personnel moves that many don’t agree with but the track record of these issues isn’t extensive and I don’t think he’s lost control of the team.

we have some players that will be shown the door I think a few coaches too, but the HC is not one of them in 2021-2022 football year. 

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I would have started Keenum to keep Baker from getting more than one surgery required for next year....

but Keenum would not have helped them win that game.

Same wr's, same field goal kicker....

nope.

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Not at all.   Continuing to play an injured QB who is further regressing because of said injury, and any more shots later in the season will likely delay his recovery period.... is a prophylactic move.

Keenum isn't "my guy".  But he presents the most logical solution for the time being that keeps this team competitive without having the injury risk Baker is currently dealing with.  We aren't far removed from the days of hardly beating anyone.  This team has won games in spite of QB play this season, that trend can continue.

Baker playing is just spinning wheels for the sake of "toughness".    I admire his grit, I truly do.  But at some point we have to say to ourselves we need to shut it down for the sake of the betterment on long term health.   After all, is that not what we're here for?  Baker would be ideal as the Browns long-term QB solution, no?    We risk making that evaluation even more difficult by continuing to walk him out there.   

 

 

 Well in fairness, as usual, the discussion boils down to fact not actually in evidence. The shoulder injury won't be better until it's repaired surgically.  So the buy week doesn't much matter.

 Question one. How much does it actually affect his play.

 Question 2 what are the odds of the injury becoming worse or irreparable if he plays out the season? How much does the brace protect him?

 Question 3 . At this point does Keenum actually give them the better chance to win?  And if Baker's shoulder is repaired now how does that affect are already slim chances at the playoffs?

 And since nobody knows those answers I guess it's a crap shoot. I would hope somebody in the building making more money than I do has a better grip on it.

WSS 

 

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1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

 Well in fairness, as usual, the discussion boils down to fact not actually in evidence. The shoulder injury won't be better until it's repaired surgically.  So the buy week doesn't much matter.

 Question one. How much does it actually affect his play.

 Question 2 what are the odds of the injury becoming worse or irreparable if he plays out the season? How much does the brace protect him?

 Question 3 . At this point does Keenum actually give them the better chance to win?  And if Baker's shoulder is repaired now how does that affect are already slim chances at the playoffs?

 And since nobody knows those answers I guess it's a crap shoot. I would hope somebody in the building making more money than I do has a better grip on it.

WSS 

 

If the Browns lose the next game vs Baltimore, they would fall to 6-7 and pretty much would be eliminated from the AFC title contention.

They should shut Baker down and get him that surgery the following day. God forbid he keeps going out there for no reason and get his knee blown out on some suicide mission, and torpedo next season too. 

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Stefanski SHOULD HAVE sat Baker for last night's game so he would have two full weeks to rest and heal. Now, he's taken more of a beating and will only have a week to get himself right. 

I for the life of me can't understand why Stefanski allows this to continue.

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20 minutes ago, Neo said:

Stefanski SHOULD HAVE sat Baker for last night's game so he would have two full weeks to rest and heal. Now, he's taken more of a beating and will only have a week to get himself right. 

I for the life of me can't understand why Stefanski allows this to continue.

He has a torn labrum. 

That isn't getting better without surgery. No amount of rest is helping it. 

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4 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Season is over rest him up so we can trade him and sit back and watch our next QB tonight 

That's a bold take. 

I like it, based solely on its boldness. 

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23 minutes ago, Neo said:

Stefanski SHOULD HAVE sat Baker for last night's game so he would have two full weeks to rest and heal. Now, he's taken more of a beating and will only have a week to get himself right. 

I for the life of me can't understand why Stefanski allows this to continue.

 It's not rocket science neo. He thought that Baker Mayfield at 80% was probably  superior to case Keenum at 100% nothing but it percent nothing more nothing less.

 And for you Dutchman, sure they lose the next game or 2 to what the fuck. Put in the scrubs; mail it in. Some people might respect fighting hard to win to the end, but not everybody.

  Good thing Sylvester Stallone didn't write that ending into rocky.

WSS 

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12 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

 It's not rocket science neo. He thought that Baker Mayfield at 80% was probably  superior to case Keenum at 100% nothing but it percent nothing more nothing less.

 And for you Dutchman, sure they lose the next game or 2 to what the fuck. Put in the scrubs; mail it in. Some people might respect fighting hard to win to the end, but not everybody.

  Good thing Sylvester Stallone didn't write that ending into rocky.

WSS 

Oh please.

Baker has been producing next to nothing for weeks now, he's obviously injured, and moral victories don't mean shit. All you boomers on here circle jerking to Baker getting the shit kicked out of him and playing like shit in the process for some weird sadomasochist fetish you all have is just plain weird. 

Get him healthy and ready to roll for 2022. 

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17 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

He has a torn labrum. 

That isn't getting better without surgery. No amount of rest is helping it. 

I understand that his shoulder isn't going to heal in two weeks or without surgery. But if Stef insists on playing him and some people insist that Baker is better 80% than Keenum at 100%, then why not have him at 90% or better? His other injuries may heal.

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6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Get him healthy and ready to roll for 2022. 

I fully agree but Stef doesn't see it that way. I say get him a healthy as you can so we can finish strong. 

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1 minute ago, Neo said:

I understand that his shoulder isn't going to heal in two weeks or without surgery. But if Stef insists on playing him and some people insist that Baker is better 80% than Keenum at 100%, then why not have him at 90% or better? His other injuries may heal.

I get your point, but he has been struggling with this since really early in the season (Game 3?) and with the exceptions of a few games, has struggled.

It makes you wonder why the hell the Browns bothered paying Keenum $6 mill if he apparently can't do better than what Mayfield has done lately.

I don't know man. Honestly, I don't see more than one, maybe two wins the rest of the way. This is 2019 all over again. 

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I always enjoy piecing together things I've worked on from time past and how it connects with relevance to the present.   The nice thing about having a fantastic memory is my ability to span those moments and connect them over long periods of time.   The downside is I have trouble forgetting things I desperately wish I could.   But that's a sad topic for another time.

If you've followed my postings and work on here, I've hinted a few times at some trends from Baker.   Those trends tend to be..

- Locking onto boundary receivers when the boundary is to his left (short side of the field)

- Not utilizing field space to his right (wide side of the field being to his right) or hesitating to use field space over preference of throws with more ... "traffic".  

- Not utilizing that field space for coverage tips even if he comes back to throw to the short side of the hashes.

 

I'm genuinely wondering if it's a kinetics issue because Baker rolling right and missing targets is pretty well noticed at this point.  Anywho, I've also mentioned, as far back as Game 1 against the Ravens last year, DC's scheming up looks to invite throws.  Baiting turnovers, to be short about it.    Baker can do pretty well against "vanilla" coverages, even on straight drops he does a fairly decent job of anticipating space.   This was something we saw as far back as the 2019 pre-season when I mentioned the coaching staff was going to "address" our offensive line woes by letting Baker, well... "be Baker" (whatever the hell that means at this point)    Best I can figure, let him take that next step in his maturation as a QB, let him develop that full command of the offense and unleash his point guard abilities to let him distribute as he read fit.     

A link to my breakdown of that boundary pick by the Ravens from over a year ago, middle of the page.   Refresh yourself.   

 

 

I wanted to try to understand where things started going weird, even before Bakers injury.  Even more important, I wanted to try and find the "why?".   Why are we seeing DC's, specifically the Pats, draw up coverages that made Baker just... guess?   Well, I'm finding more trends.  Follow along, friends.  I'm taking you back to the Houston game.   A game against a decent defense and before Bakers injury(ies).

 

I've mentioned the biggest trend of Baker locking into boundary throws.  Which is odd given that the more defenders you have over field space, the more likely you are to help diagnose coverages.   Unless you get split field coverages which are popular, but then again you can get lazy reading half the field.  A theme you might notice.

Pre-snap against a 2zone look.

 

906305828_presnaptriangles.thumb.jpg.b11fc4eacbf9f974e689889c5483cf9f.jpg

 

 

We get a small hitch - Po combo at the top. 

Hitch freezes the SAM Backer, the CB plays cover 2 rules - he checks the outside receiver, re-routes him inside and drops off with eyes to rob flat.      The SAM backer stepping up opens a nice little throwing lane which Baker sees and rips.

I really can't complain about this, you can't argue with results.   But it wasn't until I got further in this game I started to notice this lack of willingness to use more space a real problem.  There's no issue with being quick and decisive, but when you start getting to pre-snap happy, better coaches and defenses will see this sort of thing.    I only list the spacing at the bottom because you have a 2 man pattern against a 3 man triangle with the MIKE at the top creating a hell of a lot of traffic for such a squared route.   Leading into danger is something I try to avoid at all costs.

Remember this look though.  Especially DPJ on the settle just inside the numbers and outside the WILL (#51) Backer.  There's A LOT of "usable" space to attack if the coaches anticipate this coverage again. 

18583266_Hitchpo.thumb.jpg.0bc91f807d47a7ad79a9316e5a4bccfe.jpg

 

 

 

One of my favorites - another empty set against one of HOU's cover 2 looks.

Remember what I said about usable space.

 

79383688_EmptyvsC2presnap.thumb.jpg.902c5d5bff4009a699a65607db1b2894.jpg

 

Stef dials up a similar concept at the top.  Expect it's Hunt running a little spot route with Higgy running the slant behind it.    

Only to the field side, you have Njoku running the hitch to occupy the linebacker and Bryant running the seam.   You can attack seams against cover 2, it's just that your sight adjust is exactly what Bryant did here - snap off your route and present your numbers before the safety.  If this was a MOTFC look you'd carry this upfield.    But back to my point, Baker elects to throw into a crowd.   A crowd that is - to his left, and to the boundary (short side)  Themes... 

 

1204456153_Bryantseam.thumb.jpg.ac11b96f10e806b9c58d90a053b7503a.jpg

 

 

 

When HOU switched up their looks, that's when things got dicey and Bakers pre-determinations started to show themselves.

Baker again checks into the top, the boundary .... to his left.   Chubb running the influence hitch with Njoku running the post behind it.   

1152536050_PresnapthrowC3Hou.thumb.jpg.f51758a34f4dfc6d3e30d58428120911.jpg

 

 

Step one...  Baker reads corner.  Corner is off but open hip retreating.  He's able to carry outside and take away the 7, but able to recover and limit the outside throw to Chubb.  

The WILL backer is actually getting depth in his hook/vert zone here.  Depth that means rounding out any route behind him is going to take an extra moment or two.  Moments and information your QB has to take and process lightening quick.  

1762612123_Bakerseyessquatcb.thumb.jpg.e4e4bc1075267a9315efb681a0f95e78.jpg

 

Baker brings his eyes back downfield to see safety leverage.

At this point you see the flat defender isn't the WILL backer.  So if he zone expands and the corner keeps drifting upfield, you take your cheap yards with your underneath.   You can hit your RB on the hitch, because it's the safer throw.  Your eyes are already there, or if you don't like it flat you can do what Rogers did last night and hit the TE over the middle for a big 3rd down conversion who is going to box out the MIKE like he's playing in the paint.    Either way, if you don't want to wait for that window to be there with Njoku, who is going to take time to clear that backer, then take your safe option and lull those backers to sleep.   Don't let them get comfortable getting depth in their drops and taking away the intermediate routes.  This is where you dink before you dunk.    

 

 

585039350_Bakerlocatingsafety.thumb.jpg.2512b9e0f2abc2f431f97b60a4f6025f.jpg

 

For reason(s) I cannot understand....       Baker starts to wind up and put this ball into a non-existent window.     The safety is inside the numbers, you HAVE to wait for your receiver to sharply square this around the backer and under the safety.     Njoku can't carry this up the seam because you're just throwing into coverage where you risk a pick and/or getting your receiver fucking killed.

95269673_Bakerdecisionmade.thumb.png.9a1c9bd9157878bb418a6d80e62cd1c6.png

 

Baker rips one into a non-existent window.

 

This wasn't on Njoku. If Baker read that his TE was going to break to the 7, well, it wouldn't have been there.  The corner was too deep so that couldn't have been the route. David looks like he was ripping this positive (back inside) the whole way.  He can't carry the route INTO the safety, so you can forget that.    So either this was a bad read, or a bad read AND a bad throw.  Either way this ball sailed on Mayfield and sailed badly.  Incredibly fortunate this wasn't a pick.

My biggest concern is how this sort of thing highlights Baker making things harder on himself, and thus the offense as whole, then it has to be.   You just got a couple of the same looks thrown at you on the same drive and the moment Houston switched it up, you damn near handed them the ball.     Because, as I said, Baker LOVES locking onto this side of the field in this situation.   So I'm beginning to understand the "why?" DC's after this game started showing looks that they did.     But what I'm failing to understand is the "why?" Baker has shown a history of being obsessed getting into trouble in situations strangely similar to this.   Left and boundary.       Either way, this is before Baker's shoulder became a problem, you started see a bread-crumb trail (if you will) of plays that coaches could use as sort of a landmark to beginning their game designs for attacking him.

I know I'm not the only one noticing these trends, I can't be.   There are paid professionals that pour over tape.    But I did highlight some pages back Baker not pulling the trigger on a double seam against NE  because he couldn't get a feel for the corner depth and drew the safety into what would have been his throw.   This sort of miss-fire foreshadows those problems.

 

712510658_Ripshighintononwindow.thumb.jpg.dd458de9e3f59aead998a709bb771dd3.jpg

 

 

 

 

I'll have more another time.

 

 

 

 

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This really illustrates why Baker is good at play-action or roll-outs, compared to dropping back in the pocket, looking at the defense, making reads, etc. 

He's a rhythm passer. Fake the ball to the left to Chubb, roll right, rip the ball to Jarvis on a crossing pattern to the same side 12 yards downfield. 

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16 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 Time to give up on the season.  Should have been done weeks ago. Probably too late to try to trade all our decent players but what the heck. Lose the next few games move up in the draft, fire Stefansky and start all over. Great. Win win  for the haters. 

WSS

Damn Steve us call us realists "Haters" it's a popular position for the sunshine pumper crowd.... Maybe you missed Baker gimping around AGAIN on one leg.  FYI, I didn't...  Get the crip out there for the rest of the season, and hello,  8-9. That's being charitable considering...   

On 11/27/2021 at 9:48 AM, nickers said:

This is why I haven't given up on Baker... I see the big picture down the road with him.. I don't care if others do not share that sentiment.. I do not want to run this young buck out of town just to see him go somewhere and watch him thrive in another uniform... Has anyone even taken note of what Colt McCoy has done recently with talent around him?... Guys like Steve Grogan,Gary Hogeboom and Joe Ferguson turned in some decent years late in their careers and made playoff appearances.. While they're not what you call elite.. They were more than serviceable at the QB position when things fell in place for them...

This isn't about THIS year nickers... Unless you believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, THIS season is shot. PERIOD. Baker injury wise- is SHOT. I just told my pal to put my Browns Ravens tickets up for sale. Starting bid for section 111 at face value, I'll eventually take just a buck. I'm not driving 440 miles just to see Baker play like a third string street free agent.    

FWIW, Kareem Hunt's Dad happens to agree with me.... 

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4 hours ago, hoorta said:

Damn Steve us call us realists "Haters" it's a popular position for the sunshine pumper crowd.... Maybe you missed Baker gimping around AGAIN on one leg.  FYI, I didn't...  Get the crip out there for the rest of the season, and hello,  8-9. That's being charitable considering...   

This isn't about THIS year nickers... Unless you believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, THIS season is shot. PERIOD. Baker injury wise- is SHOT. I just told my pal to put my Browns Ravens tickets up for sale. Starting bid for section 111 at face value, I'll eventually take just a buck. I'm not driving 440 miles just to see Baker play like a third string street free agent.    

FWIW, Kareem Hunt's Dad happens to agree with me.... 

 I call hater's haters.  As far as your gasoline bill I doubt you would drive 440 miles to see the 2nd or 3rd quarterback hand off to practice squad running backs either. Why don't you ask Hunt's dad how many yards his kid got?  Sunshine boy? Sure. That's why I watch these fucking games. 

( And while you guys are crying about Mayfield ask coach why the animosity toward Higgins one of Baker's favorite receivers? And since you guys are all about protecting the health of players Donovan peoples Jones was barely able to take the field.  And since the backups give you an equal chance to win how did that line look without Conklin?)

WSS 

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Just one more thought If any head coach thinks about his contract for next year and beyond is he looking to go O and 5 for the rest of the season or trying to do as well as he can?

WSS 

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35 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Just one more thought If any head coach thinks about his contract for next year and beyond is he looking to go O and 5 for the rest of the season or trying to do as well as he can?

WSS 

Or if he does and I think that most do to some degree,  he would be better off to keep it in house   -or-   to himself.

They aren't exactly hurting or looking for their next meal.   What a profession they're in head coaches in the NFL ........wow.

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53 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Just one more thought If any head coach thinks about his contract for next year and beyond is he looking to go O and 5 for the rest of the season or trying to do as well as he can?

WSS 

With the Cincinnati game now looking like a complete outlier for the second half of this season, the Browns have produced 14, 10, 7, 13 and 10 points in the other five games with Baker as QB. 

0-5 - WITH Baker as QB - against the remaining schedule, is a distinct possibility. 

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26 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

With the Cincinnati game now looking like a complete outlier for the second half of this season, the Browns have produced 14, 10, 7, 13 and 10 points in the other five games with Baker as QB. 

0-5 - WITH Baker as QB - against the remaining schedule, is a distinct possibility. 

 So might as will guarantee it right?

WSS 

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1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

With the Cincinnati game now looking like a complete outlier for the second half of this season, the Browns have produced 14, 10, 7, 13 and 10 points in the other five games with Baker as QB. 

0-5 - WITH Baker as QB - against the remaining schedule, is a distinct possibility. 

With two of those games being against bad (Lions) and well below average (Steelers) defense. I do think a very non-insignificant factor has been play calling, but oof. No doubt about it, 4-1 (with maybe a Packers loss) or 5-0 is going to have to be it to sniff the playoffs. Unless there's a secret cure for #6, though, I'm not seeing that as likely.

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10 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

 So might as will guarantee it right?

WSS 

I think they'll win one, maybe two more games, honestly.

But if they were to go 0-5, with or without Baker, it wouldn't shock me. 

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For all of you HATERS of #6!... Be careful what you wish for... You just might get QB Purgatory...

 

 

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On 11/29/2021 at 8:20 PM, Dutch Oven said:

He has a torn labrum. 

That isn't getting better without surgery. No amount of rest is helping it. 

Ah, but rest could help heal his bum knee, groin, heel and whatever else is hurting. He is obviously more beat up than just the shoulder. 

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1 hour ago, nickers said:

For all of you HATERS of #6!... Be careful what you wish for... You just might get QB Purgatory...

 

 

I mostly agree with the video, especially about the part where Baker should be paid around $30 mill per year, a sum that would pay him more than any other team would, yet not wreck the Brown's ability to keep/add more talent. Baker's wife said that he changed the entire culture of the team; if he even partly did, he deserves a new deal. The one difference between he and Brees is, Drew was never as cocky as Baker; I'll leave that to others on whether that is a good thing or not.

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