Baker and OBJ

[luke8878]

Not a coincidence, well one because I don't believe in them. Baker had mvp type stats once OBJ goes out last year. First two games this season, baker 80% completion, decisive in the pocket. OBJ cones back, Baker holding on to the ball, not as crisp, and undecisive. He's better without OBJ.

[tiamat63]

Can we get a mod to delete these stupid ass threads?

[luke8878]

Articulate how this is a stupid ass thread. I can go through each game with and without OBJ, and there is a drastic difference in Baker's performance. I mean if you can explain the night and day difference of Baker, be my guest.

[tiamat63]

22 minutes ago, luke8878 said:

Articulate how this is a stupid ass thread. I can go through each game with and without OBJ, and there is a drastic difference in Baker's performance. I mean if you can explain the night and day difference of Baker, be my guest.

And just the previous week where Odell has 7 catches for 75 yards against one of the very best defenses in the NFL?  Didn't fucking hear from you last week, did we?

As for going through games, you're welcome to find my rebuttal to a Brett Kollmann video where I highlighted a missed TD bomb by Baker against the Cowboys because of his refusal to target Odell against cover 6.  

Anyone on this board that happens by this thread will gladly tell you, especially with the film work I put in, that you're going just to want to sit this one out.   You're over generalizing a well debunked bullshit myth.  One born of and propagated by people who simply can't understand football.   They watch it, but they don't understand it.

Bakers problem aren't his receivers...      Bakers problem IS Baker.   Or was his inability to put the ball on a man with no DB in 15 yards of him somehow magically the receivers fault? 

[luke8878]

First off, OBJ had 5 catches for 77 yards last week. Second, still haven't explained why Baker holds on to the ball and is indecisive when OBJ is on the field. How is this debunked?  You can show me 1 play where Baker didn't throw OBJ the ball and I can show you about 2 and a half years of Bakers stats with and without OBJ. As far as last week I thought the same about Baker and OBJ, but now after the first 2 games without OBJ and 2 with OBJ, Baker isn't the same. This wouldn't be a topic of discussion if there wasn't a correlation of when Baker has OBJ and when he doesn't, now would it?

[calfoxwc]

Baker has been hurt the last two games. Wills, Tretter and Conklin have been questionable to play,

and they took the field. I admire them for that.

Tiam is right.

[luke8878]

Was Baker hurt last year or the entire 2019 season? Or after OBJ went out last year? Was Wills, Tretter, and Conklin questionable after week 7 last year, refresh my memory. If my memory serves me correct, Baker was a better QB once OBJ went off the field. There has to be a reason why this is a topic of discussion.

[Dutch Oven]

35 minutes ago, luke8878 said:

Was Baker hurt last year or the entire 2019 season? Or after OBJ went out last year? Was Wills, Tretter, and Conklin questionable after week 7 last year, refresh my memory. If my memory serves me correct, Baker was a better QB once OBJ went off the field. There has to be a reason why this is a topic of discussion.

Baker was a much better QB after OBJ suffered his season-ending injury than before in 2020.

But was this because OBJ wasn't on the field, or was it because Baker felt more comfortable in a new offensive system after a half season of trying to figure out? 

Then again, Baker was much better as a rookie (w/o OBJ) than he was in his second season (w/ OBJ). Is this proof that he's better off without OBJ, or was the Browns a much better-run team in 2018 with Gregg Williams as head coach down the stretch than they were in 2019 under Freddie? Also, what seems to be glossed over by the pro-Baker faction is the fact that he did a horrible job of preparing for his second season. 

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, luke8878 said:

First off, OBJ had 5 catches for 77 yards last week. Second, still haven't explained why Baker holds on to the ball and is indecisive when OBJ is on the field. How is this debunked?  You can show me 1 play where Baker didn't throw OBJ the ball and I can show you about 2 and a half years of Bakers stats with and without OBJ. As far as last week I thought the same about Baker and OBJ, but now after the first 2 games without OBJ and 2 with OBJ, Baker isn't the same. This wouldn't be a topic of discussion if there wasn't a correlation of when Baker has OBJ and when he doesn't, now would it?

You're trying to make a generalization after one VERY bad game by Baker. It wasn't OBJ's fault that Mayfield sucked swamp water against the Vikes (59 qbr). He was high and wide the entire game. And one especially bad WTF play where he had Felton without a defender within ten yards of him for a gimme first down- and didn't see him.  It's also been posited that the injury to his non throwing shoulder is seriously affecting his accuracy, and is worse than he's letting on. 

I'll defer until Tia looks at the all- 22 but I have suspicion Baker was holding onto the ball because no one was getting open. 

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, luke8878 said:

Was Baker hurt last year or the entire 2019 season? Or after OBJ went out last year? Was Wills, Tretter, and Conklin questionable after week 7 last year, refresh my memory. If my memory serves me correct, Baker was a better QB once OBJ went off the field. There has to be a reason why this is a topic of discussion.

I'll tell you what, YOU provide the evidence.  Since you're making the assertion.   

But I'll attack this logically, football speaking.  

If you have a talented receiver and your QB locks onto him, then the problem lies with your QB.    Mahomes has Tyreek, Brady has Evans, Allen has Diggs, Wilson has Metcalf, Murray has DHop, etc etc etc. 

When the QB fails to get them the ball, or worse, go where coverage doesn't dictate the ball, then fans, pundits, coaches and media hold the QB accountable... as they should.  Kirk Cousins is damn near a pariah because of his contract worth compared to his performance and offensive weapons. Why do you think it was such a big deal that he was going off the first few weeks? Because fans, Minnesota fans especially, finally felt they were getting what he was paid for.  

No blame assigned to Justin Jefferson. No blame assigned to Adam Theilen.  Hardly heard anything about the vikes questionable Oline play.  It was ALL on Kirk, fair or unfair. 

That's because people often gravitate to the most simplistic answer to complex problems that they're either too lazy, too incapable or too unwilling to solve for themselvesm. Football is just a microcosm of that mindset.  

Are you  and many other Cleveland fans telling me we can't have a talented #1 receiver because Baker will lock onto him?  Sounds pretty fucking stupid when you phrase it like that.  Better not draft a pro-bowl pass catcher, because then he becomes the problem with the offense by some warped thinking.  

This reminds me of that first pick game 1 against the Ravens last year.  I broke that play down as well and the coverage. You're welcome to use the search function to find my work. Top right corner, hard to miss.  Baker locking onto the boundary receivers and teams drawing up ways to invite those throws.

One more time - if Baker has a problem coming off a read, that's a QB issue, not a receiver issue. 

 

[luke8878]

Baker is just a different QB when OBJ is out there. I'm not saying Baker sucks, or I don't like him, which I haven't said. I haven't mentioned anything about Bakers accuracy. He holds on to the ball and is indecisive when OBJ is out there. Like his reads are off, or looking for OBJ right away. 

[tiamat63]

31 minutes ago, luke8878 said:

Baker is just a different QB when OBJ is out there. I'm not saying Baker sucks, or I don't like him, which I haven't said. I haven't mentioned anything about Bakers accuracy. He holds on to the ball and is indecisive when OBJ is out there. Like his reads are off, or looking for OBJ right away. 

"Like" his reads are off?  Or are they off? 

Here, I'll help.  Take 30 minutes, start at page 8, post #6 on this thread.  Unsympathetic's link.  Watch it, it's solid work. 

 

Then start at my work explaining how Baker missed long ball touchdown shots because he miss-read AND ignored OBJ. That starts at post #11 on the same page. 

The coverages and routes are broken down color wise by me.  Hopefully you aren't blind anywhere on the color spectrum.  

Edit.  90% of Bakers problem yesterday WAS his accuracy and ball placement. I mentioned early on in the game thread how Minnesota was overplaying positive breaks by receivers. That trend will continue against the Bolts unless our QB can connect on the perimeter and outside numbers with consistency.   

... or if the Chargers back 7 is that bad.

[Ibleedbrown]

12 hours ago, luke8878 said:

Not a coincidence, well one because I don't believe in them. Baker had mvp type stats once OBJ goes out last year. First two games this season, baker 80% completion, decisive in the pocket. OBJ cones back, Baker holding on to the ball, not as crisp, and undecisive. He's better without OBJ.

More importantly, how is a coincidence something that someone does or does not believe in? It’s just a word with a definition describing an uncanny set circumstances.

That’s like me saying l don’t believe in muffins. 

Would you like a muffin?

No, l don’t believe in those. But l’ll take one of those unnamed circular shaped sweetened bread products. 

[luke8878]

There's a reason why Baker has a QB rating of 96.9, 2171 passing yard, 11 TD's and 1 pick last year when OBJ was out. 

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, luke8878 said:

There's a reason why Baker has a QB rating of 96.9, 2171 passing yard, 11 TD's and 1 pick last year when OBJ was out. 

QBR is a pretty poor metric when broken down.

You asked for some evidence to disprove your notion, despite you making the claim.  I've provided that. The least you can do is digest it and come back with a thought-out response.

[jrb12711]

Tia, you've proved your point. Like so many arguments this year, the person who clearly has substantial evidence on their side is trying to be drowned out by someone who "feels" a certain way instead. It sucks, but it's not even worth engaging further. I'm assuming they did their own research, though.

[Nero]

12 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

Tia, you've proved your point. Like so many arguments this year, the person who clearly has substantial evidence on their side is trying to be drowned out by someone who "feels" a certain way instead. It sucks, but it's not even worth engaging further. I'm assuming they did their own research, though.

You're assuming too much. 

Baker and OBJ haven't been playing together consistently, due to the injuries of the later, hence they don't have chemistry. But yesterday it was all on Baker, who missed everyone in the second half. 

[tiamat63]

1 minute ago, Nero said:

You're assuming too much. 

Baker and OBJ haven't been playing together consistently, due to the injuries of the later, hence they don't have chemistry. But yesterday it was all on Baker, who missed everyone in the second half. 

I believe JRB is agreeing with your assessment here, not disagreeing. 

[Nero]

19 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I believe JRB is agreeing with your assessment here, not disagreeing. 

He is, but he is also assuming that those who simply fart out that "Baker is better off without OBJ" did their own research. Which I find to be questionable to say the least. 

[tiamat63]

8 minutes ago, Nero said:

He is, but he is also assuming that those who simply fart out that "Baker is better off without OBJ" did their own research. Which I find to be questionable to say the least. 

While it may be true at the face value of a stat line, the further dive leads us the opposite direction.  So at that point we come to a cross-roads on agreeing just where the line of reality is drawn.

Baker performed better without Odell. He also faced some questionable defenses, adjusted route combinations, rode the Chubb-Hunt train and Baker forced himself to play better within the structure of the offense.  Not trying to create on his own without necessity. 

He is about as "protected" as an NFL QB gets.  Between the Oline, the running game, receivers and offensive design.  

Then towards the later parts of the season - Ravens and chiefs, we saw just how valuable a player like Odell would have been to some degree. Even if Baker doesn't hit him.    Which, IMHO, is like having a Ferrari but only being able to drive it during rush how.  Baker has to get the ball to our WR's ...at EVERY level of the field. 

[EastSideDawg]

1 hour ago, luke8878 said:

There's a reason why Baker has a QB rating of 96.9, 2171 passing yard, 11 TD's and 1 pick last year when OBJ was out. 

 

its a baker mayfield problem not an OBJ problem.

[jrb12711]

27 minutes ago, Nero said:

He is, but he is also assuming that those who simply fart out that "Baker is better off without OBJ" did their own research. Which I find to be questionable to say the least. 

To be sure, I meant that extremely sarcastically a la the world around us. 

[Nero]

3 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

To be sure, I meant that extremely sarcastically a la the world around us. 

Then I misunderstood the sarcasm, my bad. 

[browns52]

15 hours ago, luke8878 said:

Articulate how this is a stupid ass thread. I can go through each game with and without OBJ, and there is a drastic difference in Baker's performance. I mean if you can explain the night and day difference of Baker, be my guest.

pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....he's a fucking moron.....and he should be deleted from this board....

[hoorta]

9 minutes ago, browns52 said:

pay no attention to that man behind the curtain....he's a fucking moron.....and he should be deleted from this board....

Nah, he's entitled to his opinion, even if it's wrong. Others have said the same. Thinking Baker suddenly turns into a Halloween pumpkin just because OBJ  is on the field is a gross oversimplification. 

[Comeonman]

How many games have we lost when Baker/OBJ are both playing?

[FALCON7]

Baker is average at best as a NFL starting QB.

[nickers]

1 hour ago, FALCON7 said:

Baker is average at best as a NFL starting QB.

Ahh an Average QB that led us to 11-5 and a trip to the playoffs.. Stop while you're barely ahead...

[gumby73]

17 hours ago, Comeonman said:

How many games have we lost when Baker/OBJ are both playing?

FWIW...

  

21 hours ago, EastSideDawg said:

its a baker mayfield problem not an OBJ problem.

agreed! Baker targeted 9 different receivers Sunday..Higgins & OBJ both saw 7 to lead team..  Like Baker, we miss not seeing Landry in those huddles on Sunday's 

 

[Unsympathetic]

I think we can all agree with gumby that the One True Problem with this offense has always been Landry.

 

It's almost never true that a person is a problem. It actually shows that the person/account/sockpuppet doing the asserting of a "person" being a problem is themselves not interested in diving deep enough to discover the actual problem for any of a number of reasons.  Are they too lazy? Do they already have the solution in mind and are working backwards to support their conclusion?

 

In order to determine a solution, first we have to agree on what the problem is that we're trying to solve ---- and in EVERY SINGLE ONE of these stupid OBJ/Baker threads, "the issue" is ever-changing.. much like trying to pin jello to a wall.

*Why are we certain we've reached the root cause? Have you asked the reason "why" to drive to root cause enough?

[EX: Why does Baker lock in? Because of pressure. So.. Why is there pressure? Because of Wills' sprained ankle. So.. Why is Wills still playing when he has a sprained ankle?   See how we got to the "root" cause being Wills in this line of thinking?  That's not the only potential root.]

*What are all the potential root causes that have been identified?

 

Next, data.

*What's the data to include?  How do we know we're looking at everything? Is there anything more that could be included?

*How many people have you talked to so that you can be sure you're including all the possible ways to look at that data?

*what are ALL the possible ways that data can be analyzed?  This does, in fact, ask the methodology to use.

Note that we still haven't even proposed a solution.  Still analyzing.

 

Now that we've done ALL of this, ONLY NOW do we even start trying to combine data with those potential root causes... And this is done so that your data addresses and solves the ACTUAL underlying problem.  It should not shock anyone that the tendency of People Who Think They're Smart to jump right to the solution because They Just Know is... More often than not simply wrong.