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Zombo

Defensive Tackle

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This is the most intriguing position to me, and I keep having a problem shaving the room down to the right 4 or 5, and then I realize what the problem may be ... assuming Andrew Billings is the starter.

He's done absolutely nothing in the two preseason games and I saw him getting pushed around against Jacksonville.

Granted, I'm not at practices, but the four best defensive tackles that I have seen in the two games are: Jackson, Day, McDowell and Jordan. So what if we keep those four and 4th round draft pick Togai and CUT Billings?

We didn't need him last year,  he's not signed for next year... and he just looks like a big nobody so far.

I know Tia is going going to shit himself and lecture me on the 1-tech position, but I just want to keep the best talent and, regarding Billings, in the words of Charlie Sexton ... "I am not impressed".

Z

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I will look at Billings' jersey next game and find any spots where his back-skin fused with the couch cushion he spent 2020 laying on.  Albert Haynesworth: Electric Boogaloo.

Issue is that his bonus is already a sunk cost, so if Berry finds a sucker - i mean a trade partner, we can save 2 and only take a 1.5 dead hit.

If we cut him, that's a 3.5 dead hit.

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The man so far just flat out blows... Maybe he's waiting for the season to start lol.. All the same.. I agree with Zombo... Not impressed 1 Iota!

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I’m not impressed with Elliot either.  I’d rather keep Togiai over Elliot (showed nothing in 13 months). 
 

I’m at a we aren’t  f@cking around point…we just played a team (Jax) that’s a hot mess on their line and the Giants second unit Oline (a team actively looking for 5-9 Oline spots) and our starter quality players didn’t do much.  Maybe it’s time to send mid round pick for an interior starter (we have 8 picks next year) and We are just a few pieces away IMO. 
 

Im running the ball on our defense (all day too with what ive seen) neutralizing our exterior pass rush and keeping our offense on the sideline. 

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10 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

I am quite surprised with Malik. Former second-round pick is doing work.  At our last game he was the highest-rated guy on D.

And this confirmed what I thought about OSUs contributor. He was worse even than Billings. Cut him or send him to PS.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/08/browns-defensive-grades-vs-giants-who-was-elite-average-and-replaceable.html

DEFENSIVE TACKLE

Malik McDowell: 91.7.
Jordan Elliott: 79.3.
Sheldon Day: 64.4. 
Andrew Billings: 59.9.
Tommy Togiai: 46.9.
Marvin Wilson: 30.2.

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13 hours ago, Zombo said:

This is the most intriguing position to me, and I keep having a problem shaving the room down to the right 4 or 5, and then I realize what the problem may be ... assuming Andrew Billings is the starter.

He's done absolutely nothing in the two preseason games and I saw him getting pushed around against Jacksonville.

Granted, I'm not at practices, but the four best defensive tackles that I have seen in the two games are: Jackson, Day, McDowell and Jordan. So what if we keep those four and 4th round draft pick Togai and CUT Billings?

We didn't need him last year,  he's not signed for next year... and he just looks like a big nobody so far.

I know Tia is going going to shit himself and lecture me on the 1-tech position, but I just want to keep the best talent and, regarding Billings, in the words of Charlie Sexton ... "I am not impressed".

Z

No doubt that Billings looks like the overnight grill man at the Waffle House.  It wouldn't bother me if we cut him.

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2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

And this confirmed what I thought about OSUs contributor. He was worse even than Billings. Cut him or send him to PS.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2021/08/browns-defensive-grades-vs-giants-who-was-elite-average-and-replaceable.html

DEFENSIVE TACKLE

Malik McDowell: 91.7.
Jordan Elliott: 79.3.
Sheldon Day: 64.4. 
Andrew Billings: 59.9.
Tommy Togiai: 46.9.
Marvin Wilson: 30.2.

They are all a risk in some degree.  

Is McDowell going to show maturity on and off the field?  

Is Elliot going to show something against a first unit offensive line (he hasn’t shown much in 13 months)?  and Did we cut Elliot last year?  I wouldn’t cut Togiai. 

Billings looks like (at best) a rotational piece that plays maybe 1/3 to half of the snaps.  He’s not in football shape yet is all I got because he played a ton of snaps against guys that will be lifting UPS boxes in two weeks.  He’s got to be better 

The good news we play an inexperienced unit week 1, a bad unit week 2 and the worst offensive line in football week 3.  So even with the questions maybe we build confidence.

I think we need to use draft capital and/or depth in other positions to acquire a better alternative 

 

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Post placement here for future edit.

I have things to say, but I'm going to hold off until after the last pre-season game at least.

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It's certainly possible that the internal expectations for Billings game-ready status after 18 months away from daily training intensity is only during/after the third game.. But even the gawking rabble such as myself would have to be able to see a play or four where he [or anyone] flashes progress towards a goal.  Show me something. 

A borderline PS player such as Gustin doesn't have much of a ceiling and therefore can't fall very far to maintain his spot.  Should there be more leeway with Billings?

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18 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

It's certainly possible that the internal expectations for Billings game-ready status after 18 months away from daily training intensity is only during/after the third game.. But even the gawking rabble such as myself would have to be able to see a play or four where he [or anyone] flashes progress towards a goal.  Show me something. 

A borderline PS player such as Gustin doesn't have much of a ceiling and therefore can't fall very far to maintain his spot.  Should there be more leeway with Billings?

I can highlight a half dozen plays between the Jax and NYG game where Billings flashed.  In the latter especially you can go to the Browns Board discord and see where I made mention of him almost single-handedly blowing up the giants interior and starting a goal line stand.

While I dont put much stock in eyes that aren't my own, there are also multiple mentions of Billings performing well in camp and joint practice across several Browns sites.

I'm sure a few more weeks of conditioning aren't going to hurt.  But there's also a knowledge that we have no other body on roster capable of doing what AB can do when he's healthy and focused.  Because of that, I'm sure both himself and the coaches have told him to protect himself in preparation for the grind of the season.   

I don't think that last bit is being taken into consideration. The man is a proven commodity in the NFL.  He was a good IDL for run limiting in Cincy, I doubt that ability has magically vanished.   Just takes a little time to get back into the swing of things.   You can feel free to hit the panic button week 4 should he somehow end up being rag-dolled around.  

But as I said during the game, credit the Gmen for seeing our nickel and dime personnel on early downs and being patient enough to power right at it.

Oh and uh, Alim McNeil is looking pretty good in Detroit too. 

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it might take billings a little while to get back into it from being off from football for a year.   His conditioning, play strength , technique will probably come back after 1/4 of the season.  its a bigger risk cutting him IMO.   he will get picked up in a second.

 

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On 8/24/2021 at 11:51 AM, ballpeen said:

No doubt that Billings looks like the overnight grill man at the Waffle House.  It wouldn't bother me if we cut him.

Billings blows. 

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No doubt that Billings looks like the overnight grill man at the Waffle House.  It wouldn't bother me if we cut him.

One running back, smothered and covered, coming right up.

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50 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

One running back, smothered and covered, coming right up.

Just like my hash browns... 

Now I have that song in my head. 😁 

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Given McDowell's history (since it was an MSU Michigan recruiting battle) I'm amazed he's still in the league, let alone performing. Here's hoping he put it all together

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48 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Given McDowell's history (since it was an MSU Michigan recruiting battle) I'm amazed he's still in the league, let alone performing. Here's hoping he put it all together

McDowell looks like an aggressive, Joe Woods type player.

I think Jackson/Day/McDowell are our best athletes.

But we need a nose guard... and Billings/Togai/ Wilson is pretty weak. Unless Billings is just pretending to suck.

Z

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8 hours ago, Zombo said:

McDowell looks like an aggressive, Joe Woods type player.

I think Jackson/Day/McDowell are our best athletes.

But we need a nose guard... and Billings/Togai/ Wilson is pretty weak. Unless Billings is just pretending to suck.

Z

it a shame on the 3 nose players.  Billings is a vet who is way out of shape.  Well, ok, round is a shape.  Togai is a rook, what 4th/5th round pick?  He is strong, but I don't think big enough.  He shouldn't make the final roster but  have a feeling he will. Wilso has a lot of upside and we gave him a large signing bonus for a UDFA player.  He hasn;t shown much.

 

The sad fact is 1 if not 2 of those guys are going to eat a roster spot from a more deserving player.

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17 hours ago, ballpeen said:

it a shame on the 3 nose players.  Billings is a vet who is way out of shape.  Well, ok, round is a shape.  Togai is a rook, what 4th/5th round pick?  He is strong, but I don't think big enough.  He shouldn't make the final roster but  have a feeling he will. Wilso has a lot of upside and we gave him a large signing bonus for a UDFA player.  He hasn;t shown much.

Your Togai out.. is my why.. Billings is a built NFL 'in'..

what i'm struggling with?

Has McDowell surpassed, Togai / Elliotts DT play?..McDowell can play outside edge too/ Togai has not been asked.. our coaches seem to preach 'dual positions'

Does Berry trust? McDowell's (age 25) background* will get him thru waivers? or can a young (21) Togai/Elliott/Wilson get pass waivers? I could see 5 DT's kept// not so much 6.. 

Jackson/Day/Billlings/ makes my 3 in's.. I've been pulling for McDowell since camp started.. hope he slips in.. 

 Togia vs Elliott in paper clippings reads close.. "coaches call" in my book..they see the 'all's' of the room  

PS's can be made up, on the few extra dollars GM's toss at them in bonus's..AJ Green was Berry's 1st.. Might Marvin Wilson be his 2nd? stay tuned.. 

 

Salary

NFL practice squad players make a minimum of $8,000 per week that they are on the practice squad.

If a player remains on the practice squad for an entire regular season (at a minimum salary of $8,000 per week), he would earn a minimum of $136,000 over the full regular season if he keeps his spot on the practice squad. If a team makes the playoffs, these payments continue for as long as the team is in the playoffs.

*Practice squad players can be paid any amount by teams as an incentive to not sign to another team’s roster. The contracts do count towards the team’s salary cap*

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8 hours ago, gumby73 said:

Your Togai out.. is my why.. Billings is a built NFL 'in'..

what i'm struggling with?

Has McDowell surpassed, Togai / Elliotts DT play?..McDowell can play outside edge too/ Togai has not been asked.. our coaches seem to preach 'dual positions'

Does Berry trust? McDowell's (age 25) background* will get him thru waivers? or can a young (21) Togai/Elliott/Wilson get pass waivers? I could see 5 DT's kept// not so much 6.. 

Jackson/Day/Billlings/ makes my 3 in's.. I've been pulling for McDowell since camp started.. hope he slips in.. 

 Togia vs Elliott in paper clippings reads close.. "coaches call" in my book..they see the 'all's' of the room  

PS's can be made up, on the few extra dollars GM's toss at them in bonus's..AJ Green was Berry's 1st.. Might Marvin Wilson be his 2nd? stay tuned.. 

 

Salary

NFL practice squad players make a minimum of $8,000 per week that they are on the practice squad.

If a player remains on the practice squad for an entire regular season (at a minimum salary of $8,000 per week), he would earn a minimum of $136,000 over the full regular season if he keeps his spot on the practice squad. If a team makes the playoffs, these payments continue for as long as the team is in the playoffs.

*Practice squad players can be paid any amount by teams as an incentive to not sign to another team’s roster. The contracts do count towards the team’s salary cap*

Togai needs to come up with an unfortunate injury and go on season-ending IR before rosters are set ... Problem solved.

C'mon Toga, Toga, take one for the team!

Z

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3 hours ago, Zombo said:

Togai needs to come up with an unfortunate injury and go on season-ending IR before rosters are set ... Problem solved.

C'mon Toga, Toga, take one for the team!

Z

I think he is a goner.

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On 8/23/2021 at 9:47 PM, Zombo said:

This is the most intriguing position to me, and I keep having a problem shaving the room down to the right 4 or 5, and then I realize what the problem may be ... assuming Andrew Billings is the starter.

He's done absolutely nothing in the two preseason games and I saw him getting pushed around against Jacksonville.

Granted, I'm not at practices, but the four best defensive tackles that I have seen in the two games are: Jackson, Day, McDowell and Jordan. So what if we keep those four and 4th round draft pick Togai and CUT Billings?

We didn't need him last year,  he's not signed for next year... and he just looks like a big nobody so far.

I know Tia is going going to shit himself and lecture me on the 1-tech position, but I just want to keep the best talent and, regarding Billings, in the words of Charlie Sexton ... "I am not impressed".

Z

I wouldn't be surprised if Billings and Togai cut. They've showed absolutely nothing and several others have vastly out-performed them. 

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when is the final cut down date ? could be a dt is not even on the roster yet

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20 hours ago, Zombo said:

Togai needs to come up with an unfortunate injury and go on season-ending IR before rosters are set ... Problem solved.

C'mon Toga, Toga, take one for the team!

Z

I don't root for injury, but that would solve a problem.  The guy needs a year to develop.  If he is capable, he is still a year away.  If he makes the roster, somebody better is going to get cut.

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2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I don't root for injury, but that would solve a problem.  The guy needs a year to develop.  If he is capable, he is still a year away.  If he makes the roster, somebody better is going to get cut.

If they think he shows long term promise, they will ship him to the PS.

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12 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

If they think he shows long term promise, they will ship him to the PS.

I don't think you understand how that works going off your last few posts.  Togi would have to clear waivers first. There is no just "ship him to practice squad".

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I thought l read somewhere that it takes a couple years for a young DT to get “good” at the NFL level. I don’t know if that’s really a thing. If it is l would guess it has something to do with strength being a huge part of the game, and they are going up against OLinemen who are likely a few years older than them and therefore have a few years of iron pumping on them. 

With both Elliott and Togiai looking less than stellar l thought l would look through our recent draft history to get a glimpse at our success rate in drafting DTs. Maybe we just suck at drafting DTs? Andrew Berry was involved from 2016-2018 and 2020-present, and DePodesta has been here since 2016, though it’s questionable how much anyone listened to those guys earlier on, especially in the case of DePodesta. 

There isn’t a lot of drafted DTs going back to 2016. 2017 Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley, 2020 Elliott, and 2021 Togiai. That’s it. Ogunjobi had a solid 4 years here. Brantley didn’t last long but he was a lower round pick. And the other guys are fairly new. I’d say it’s pretty inconclusive. 

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8 minutes ago, Ibleedbrown said:

I thought l read somewhere that it takes a couple years for a young DT to get “good” at the NFL level. I don’t know if that’s really a thing. If it is l would guess it has something to do with strength being a huge part of the game, and they are going up against OLinemen who are likely a few years older than them and therefore have a few years of iron pumping on them. 

With both Elliott and Togiai looking less than stellar l thought l would look through our recent draft history to get a glimpse at our success rate in drafting DTs. Maybe we just suck at drafting DTs? Andrew Berry was involved from 2016-2018 and 2020-present, and DePodesta has been here since 2016, though it’s questionable how much anyone listened to those guys earlier on, especially in the case of DePodesta. 

There isn’t a lot of drafted DTs going back to 2016. 2017 Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley, 2020 Elliott, and 2021 Togiai. That’s it. Ogunjobi had a solid 4 years here. Brantley didn’t last long but he was a lower round pick. And the other guys are fairly new. I’d say it’s pretty inconclusive. 

It's more than just strength. Sure, your body is physically filling out to it's finality and professional coaches help get you there.  But it's also technique, hand usage and footwork along with gap integrity and play recognition.  It's just a different speed of game, straight up.    To come in and make an impact as a rookie IDL is something great.  Takes a good player to do that.    Derrick Brown was a top 10 pick and he had an up and down rookie season. 

Quinnen Williams was an absolute wrecking ball while at Bama. Now it's taken halfway through his 2nd season to pick up his level of play worthy of his draft slot and realizing his potential.

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4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I don't think you understand how that works going off your last few posts.  Togi would have to clear waivers first. There is no just "ship him to practice squad".

I know he has to clear waivers, but I have seen nothing that would convince me he won't clear. Have you? Am I missing some skills that I have not yet seen in preseason? I see a guy who gets pushed all over the field so far and that is not even done by starters.

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I want to see how the  DT positions perform with Myles on one side and Clowney on the other. There will obviously be more attention on each side of some of the guys we are critical of.  It is worth noting that our guys in the middle thus far have not had that luxury.
 

The Tommy T vs Elliot scenario.  Elliot really didn’t show anything at all last year as a rookie.  He had a PFF good game last week.  So we’ve gotten a 13 month look at what he can do.  I can’t envision a scenario where we risk losing Tommy T to another team in just a four week training camp.  We’ve obviously seen tools to develop he was a 4th round pick.  

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