Browns' offensive line - best in the NFL

[calfoxwc]

amazing to watch them play last year. This whole team is going to be exciting to watch, but

the offensive line (the engine of the offense) is going to be great to watch again. If any defense sells out to try to stop

Chubb and Hunt... they are going to be toast.

https://www.brownsnation.com/3-reasons-browns-offensive-line-can-be-even-better-in-2021/

#Browns offensive line in 2020:
🔸 Pass blocking grade – 86.5 (1st)
🔸 Run blocking grade – 81.2 (1st)

 

[ATOM]

ya know i don't like to wish time away but the hell with summer bring on september

[gumby73]

The far to few Bill Callahan articles.. https://www.brownsnation.com/is-bill-callahan-the-best-assistant-coach-in-the-nfl/  and Yes! I'd cast my vote for Callahan 

[ballpeen]

I don't know if it is the best or not, but I know it is pretty darn good, so that's good enough for me so I don't care where we rank on some subjective list.

 

Now that we are very good in that area, I hope we continue to add drafted players every year, and not just some Spencer Drango type 6th rounder.  Hudson this year was a good pick for the future.  

 

Keep drafting someone in the first 4 rounds and lets stay good in both starters and depth. At some point you might be able to skip a year, but with 5 players on the unit, the odds are good that nearly every year you are going to have at least 1 in a contract situation.  We are bound to experience some turn over along the line, so having a plug a play player seems wise to me.

[gumby73]

It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..

Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !) 

May a player like  Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...🙏 ? Especially...   if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?

[tiamat63]

Perhaps @unsympathetic can help me digest the numbers. That admittedly isn't my area.  But I believe Bitonio has no guaranteed money and no dead money after this season correct? 

If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...? 

 

 

[ballpeen]

3 hours ago, gumby73 said:

It's driving me nutz that former Browns/KC C Austin Reiter is just sitting out there as a FA..

Reiter was coached by Bill Callahan in Washington as their 7th round pick... (can ya tell !) 

May a player like  Reiter be sitting out there this late next season...🙏 ? Especially...   if Tretter is considering retirement after the 2021 season?

I liked Reiter when he was here.  I don't know if he was answer anything or not.

 

I don't know it Tretter is thinking of retiring, but I doubt he is here next year, so center is a spot we will need to fill.  I know we drafted Nick Harris a couple of years ago with him being eyed as a center replacement.  I couldn't say he will be the answer, but the team seems to like him so he will at the least get a shot.  Bitonio is another I don't expect back, so we will have some holes to fill.  I expect Wyatt will get signed with "Bitonio" money, and the team has been looking at Hudson at guard some, so maybe he fills the other spot.

 

 

[Unsympathetic]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Perhaps @unsympathetic can help me digest the numbers. That admittedly isn't my area.  But I believe Bitonio has no guaranteed money and no dead money after this season correct? 

If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...? 

Bito's contract is 9.97 and 10.0 the next 2 seasons w no dead if cut.  I'd resign him ASAP - or perhaps Berry will push his resigning over more years for generating room under the cap for the younger guys.  Note that Bito was PFF's #3-rated OL last season at 86.2 so let's don't call him declining quite yet..

Teller was named the NFL's most improved player for 2020 by PFF.  Teller also led the league in 2020 in performance-based pay which amounted to about a 25% raise, a little-discussed side effect of the collective bargaining agreement which increases salary for guys who outperform their contract.

Issue is consistency as well as passpro which Teller is at best average .. perhaps Callahan can coach him up; perhaps not.  You don't want to give him an extension only to see him revert to prior averages.  Interestingly Teller entered the league better at passpro than runblock.  Teller had a better 2020 than Bito - at runblocking but not at passpro..

Video on Teller.  Also, Teller got engaged on the field of FirstEnergy mid-week before Christmas this past year.. so I'd guess he wants to stick around.

[Tour2ma]

13 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I liked Reiter when he was here.  I don't know if he was answer anything or not.

One start in 2 years... What was there to like?

Couldn't beat out Tretter... left for KC where he got hurt before returning to anchor one of the league's worst OLs until the 2021 housecleaning.

 

Teller's a roadgrading beast... we can afford to give up a little PassPro for his running game proficiency.

 

Biggest questions for Harris are his strength and anchoring vs. bigger NTs. It will be interesting to see if weight room time has paid off. If it has, then only making line calls, something Tretter does really well, remains to be seen.

 

16 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

If so, I ask why would the Browns not be more inclined to extend a 25 year old wyatt as opposed to a 31 year old Bito...? 

Good question... could be that as one of the longest tenured Browns and a consistently high performer to boot, he's earned a dose of FO loyalty.

[ballpeen]

5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

One start in 2 years... What was there to like?

Couldn't beat out Tretter... left for KC where he got hurt before returning to anchor one of the league's worst OLs until the 2021 housecleaning.

 

Teller's a roadgrading beast... we can afford to give up a little PassPro for his running game proficiency.

 

Biggest questions for Harris are his strength and anchoring vs. bigger NTs. It will be interesting to see if weight room time has paid off. If it has, then only making line calls, something Tretter does really well, remains to be seen.

 

Good question... could be that as one of the longest tenured Browns and a consistently high performer to boot, he's earned a dose of FO loyalty.

Don't misunderstand. I don't want to sign Reiter..  I thought he was a decent back-up while here.   As for Harris, I agree.  He hasn't played enough to really know much about the guy.  As I said, the team seems to .like him and he will probably get the best shot at Treeters position.  I do think that once Treeter is gone for one reason or another we will take steps to bring in another center, be it some drafted player or free agent player, due to the question marks surrounding Harris.

As for Teller,  I hope i didn't give the impression I don't want him signed.  As I said, I don't see bitonio here after this year.   Teller takes his money slot .  We can get something worked out for this year.  I'd sign Teller by 11AM this morning.

[gumby73]

Well said ballbeen^^^

Either way we have to prepare for Bitonio or Tretter's 'hit the age out wall' or large contracts..Teller is a contract we will need at R or LG ..Conklin is not the health'est 26 year old either.. 

3 studs or duds... holding our futures OL keys 🗝️... Drew Forbes.. Nick Harris... James Hudson.. Coached up by Bill Callahan in 2021

Stay Tuned... 🍿

[ballpeen]

39 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

 

I realize that drafting for needs isn't the focus of this FO group, and I agree, but I wouldn't be shocked to see a O lineman being selected early in the draft, like 1st round

 

I say that because we should be drafting fairly late in the draft and at that position, you typically find value with players who play guard, center, and RT, so it fits a potential need.

 

The Steelers did that for years, draft late and keep taking O line players.  They also didn't miss much of a beat when they had to plug and play.  O line impacts the QB and running backs, and indirectly the receivers..  If the QB is kept clean, he impacts the receivers.

 

 

[Unsympathetic]

When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick.  Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted. 

This switching isn't always a negative -- I saw zero mockdrafts that had Newsome falling all the way to our pick; he was a consensus top-15.  You may think this [good player falling to our draft slot] couldn't happen again, but Ozzie Newsome became a Hall of Fame GM w BAL by every year not trading up and simply taking whatever consensus top player everyone else had allowed to fall further than expected.

As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft, comparing those against the current starter's dollar ask in negotiations, and ensuring any other big known moves at other spots [signing Johnson, for example] continued to have the required cap space.  An example of a player profile we don't keep on our roster is a run-defense-only DL.. all of our DI have achieved above-average penetration earlier in their career.

[gumby73]

5 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

When talking about "Position X in the first!" need to keep in mind.. The next guy available at that position [either OT or OG] may not have a first-round grade... and thus we would need to switch over to whoever has the athleticism worthy of the first-round pick.  Think buckets of roughly equivalent prospects [to switch between as needed] rather than "the slot" determining something magical - picks 17 and 19 are likely roughly equivalent pre-draft and the difference would thus be whatever the team really wanted. 

As well, the decision on resigning OL [or any position, really] likely starts by looking at players who fit the athletic profile we're looking to have in our team who are interested in signing as FA and/or are available in draft..

I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021  time will tell...

 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, gumby73 said:

I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021  time will tell...

 

Tyreek Hill was mostly a kr when he came to the Chiefs - he had even been labeled a possible UDFA. Anthony IS a wr from the gitgo, even though he has a lot to learn, too. I expect to see Scwartz make a big difference with the Browns - not sure if he will be pressed into big productivity as soon.

[ballpeen]

10 hours ago, gumby73 said:

I was elated with the picks of Newsome/JOK & Togiai... But Anthony Schwartz better come out swagging a De'Sean Jackson type WR or we may have whiffed on some highly ranked lineman in the 3rd round.. I can't say Schwartz would have still been there in the 4th as Hudson was..

https://www.nfl.com/draft/tracker/picks?round=3&year=2021  time will tell...

 

I don't agree he needs to be a Jackson out of the gate.  I think the one component the O lacked was a true speed guy outside.  I think he can bring a lot to the O even if much of it is unseen in the production stats.  All it is going to take is for him to start beating guys deep, caught ball or not, to keep a safety shading his side of the field.  It isn't a sound defensive strategy to count on a dropped ball or a poor pass from the QB to act as your safety.  He may only catch a handful of deep balls, but he can probably triple the number of plays where he opens things for other players, so I wouldn't get all that hung up on the box score.  

I would also expect to see him getting a lot of off coverage by corners to compensate for his speed,.  Enough so that he should get a lot of quick hit opportunities that he and Baker can pitch and catch it 5-6 yards at a time right down the field.

 

As always with speed receivers, the ability to focus and actually catch the ball will tell the story.  Sometimes those speed guys start to think about running with their speed a fraction early rather than waiting to actually secure the ball.  

[Unsympathetic]

Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021.  It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section.  Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone.  [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]

If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..

[ballpeen]

Maybe a bit off topic from your excellent point and post, but I doubt we sign Bitonio.

 

First is his age.  He is a bit old from the standard, but that doesn't mean the standard can't be adjusted as required.  Bitonio plays a position they typically enjoys  longer career, unlike a RB as an example.  It's not unusual to see O-linemen playing well in to their late 30's.

 

I think more on point will be a function of money.  The timing on Bitonio is a bit off.  By that I mean we have a QB and running back to sign, and a younger guard in Teller to sign. Even with a expanding cap, I am not sure we can get him fit in to the cap pie.  I didn't mention that depending on how he plays, we may even want to ty to fit Clowney in to that pie.

 

We might find a creative way, or maybe Bitonio is willing to sign a undervalued contract to stay in Cleveland, but I'd say the chances are pretty low that happens.

 

I don't like it, but we have a good team now and good teams lose good players all the time because of money allocation issues. teams have to weigh out who they would rather keep and who needs to go to keep that player.  If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, ballpeen said:

If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?

On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.

The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.

To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer. 

[ballpeen]

5 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

On the surface, it seems that a choice between two very good OGs should be the younger one with his career ahead of him.

The problem is that Teller has had ONE very good NFL season, and in that one very good NFL season he was injury-prone.

To me, that makes the question difficult to answer today. Maybe at the end of the season it will become clearer. 

I don't disagree.  I almost said some of the same things.  I think Tellers play will determine that question as well.

 

Two points...Is Teller injury prone, or did he get injured?  There is a difference.  The other point is for Offensive linemen,  "fluke" good years out of young players is pretty rare.  It's hard to "luck" into good blocks, so I don't think what we saw is some one and done so to speak....yes, I know you didn't say that.  I just felt that needed to be added.

[Unsympathetic]

The two players just aren't identical.  Teller is a passpro liability; Bito is the best passblocking OG in the league.

It's harder to become good at passpro later in your career after not doing it for your career's first multiple years.. when all players are their most athletic.

If I have to choose, I'm taking Bito because he's very good at both run&pass.  Everyone else on the OL [even Wills] is a top-tier passblocker; Teller simply isn't and so I think Bito gets resigned. 

Don't get me wrong: They very well could restructure people [or not resign Hubbard if they're comfortable with the progress of the guys making under 1m as the backups, etc] and get the younger Teller for 7,8/yr and the same for a re-upping for Bito after 2022.  But if the question is one and only one player, for me that has to be Bito.. he retires as a Brown.

[gumby73]

 

On 7/16/2021 at 7:59 PM, Unsympathetic said:

Pass Block Win Rate - all OL - projected for 2021.  It's a good read because Cleveland is #1 and the free part of the ESPN+ article lets you read only our section.  Wills as a rookie is top10 individual PBWR among all OT. Conklin is tied for OT#1 and Bito is OG#1 alone.  [Not that we needed more reasons to resign Bito..]

If you have ESPN+, let us know any highlights from the rest of the article..

Wills is a rewind from here...

 Teller's passing footwork does become a issue vs blitz & speed rush..Power he's a Taz on wheels.. OL-men on NFL pass-pro islands aren't all Joe Thomas's either.. But as this tape^^ shows🧐 Were not bad playing as a OL *unit.. Watch where Tretter's eyes go to help side(2:36)... Watch Teller's pull during Tretter's breakdown 😤

Teller knows he not a finished product from a Callahan link...  

Guard Wyatt Teller said:

“He stayed on my butt. He has made sure that I know that I have a lot to work at and a lot to improve.”

Berry can't pay top guard money to a guard that struggles in pass blocking... But he does have 17 more games to watch 👀..and a trade deadline,  November. At 4 pm on November 2 all trading for the 2021 season will stop. Which happens to fall after Zona/Denver/Pittsburgh 

needless to say...It's a huge contract season for Wyatt Teller

and Go big...VT Hokie!

[Tour2ma]

On 7/17/2021 at 5:55 AM, ballpeen said:

If it comes down to Bitonio or Teller, who do you keep?

Today? Bito...

One year from today? Dunno...

Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.

[ballpeen]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:41 PM, Tour2ma said:

Today? Bito...

One year from today? Dunno...

Point being Teller needs to prove that 2020 was not a fluke.

My question was more for after this season.

 

I also discount flukes for offensive linemen.  To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks.  I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up.  I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.

 

 

[calfoxwc]

I'd rather see Tretter start for this season...

https://www.brownsnation.com/why-nick-harris-has-potential-to-start-in-2022/

[SdBacker80]

6 hours ago, ballpeen said:

My question was more for after this season.

 

I also discount flukes for offensive linemen.  To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks.  I am sure it has happened, but you usually don't see O-linemen regress a whole lot after they have played well except for injury or age catches up.  I keep Teller if it has to be one or the other.

 

 

I agree here...he also dealt with a calf injury...player regression probably more common in scenario where a guy isn’t 100%.  He may not have been 100% before or after that injury.  I guess it is fair to say if he’s healthier this year he could have a better season.  He destroyed some Dlineman and backers pulling this past year.  Fans don’t like it, but you have to see what the guy wants unless you are a cornerstone player at a position like QB/LT/DE we may not pay him even he’s great again this coming year
 

I think you let Bitonio’s contract play out too he’s under a team friendly two year deal (left) at 10M per.  2023 he’s 32 and you make a choice at that point and maybe you’ve drafted a guy next season that competes for the spot in 2023.  
 

We could conceivably have 16 drafted rookies in 2021 and 2022 that will need to fill some of these holes. 
 

 

[Tour2ma]

8 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I also discount flukes for offensive linemen.  To me, you don't fluke in to good blocks. 

The timing of your  "Who do you" question, asked in the here and now, was not clear to me.

As for OL fluking... Points taken, but you have to agree that where Bito has "done it" year after year, Teller's 2020 performance was atypical of his previously undistinguished career. So let me me put "outlier" in place of "fluke".

Since his circumstances, i.e., who flanks him, coaches him, etc. will be the same in 2021, it's reasonable to expect the continuation of the success he enjoyed last season. But it's unreasonable to assume it... and to choose Teller now, would entail that big assumption.

Teller thrived sandwiched between two very highly regarded vets. Bito got the rookie OT who flipped sides in his jump to the NFL. So I stick with Bito... the OG who I know is good enough to make those around him better.

[ballpeen]

And your points taken.

 

I guess it boils down to this for me.  I am less likely to think what we saw in Teller was an outlier.  He was a 5th round pick, and started 5-6 games for Buffalo as a rookie.  I assume the starts were as a injury fill in, but i am not sure.  I didn't want to do a deep dive in to the specifics.  I am pretty sure he didn't win the job out of camp, then lost the job mid way.  I only bring up his draft position to highlight that the 5th round is right in the wheelhouse of where the top interior linemen usually are selected. No doubt you have a few cream guys like the guy in Indy who go higher(can't think of his name), but the 5th at least demonstrates he was a highly thought of guard prospect, for what that is worth.  

 

Indeed, being between two solid players was/is a big help.  My thinking is that at least a good portion of that comes on the mental side and not actual physical help. That is experience he now has and can carry with him as his career moves forward.

 

I guess the bottom line is I don't see any way we will be able to maintain keeping both players moving forward.  There is a cap pie and I don't see the two guard positions holding as large of a share as it is going to take.  I won't totally rule that out, but I don't see it as a high chance.  That said, I just go with the younger and cheaper player.  Teller will more or less move in to a salary structure currently held by Bitonio (+ inflation) and Bitonio move up from there because he isn't all that old for a O-lineman.  You see many still playing well past their mid 30's so there is no reason to believe he can't play at the top of his game for another 2-3 seasons or more.

 

If we weren't in a SuperBowl window, I'd even think about trading Bitionio at some point later in camp if I saw a guy like Hudson showing enough in camp and preseason games to make me think he could work out to at least a adequate degree.  I'll even go so far as to say we might see that happen.  A small, small chance at this point, but if we see Hudson or someone getting some 1st team looks in practice and games, it's because some team is talking to Berry about the possibilities.  Yes, Hudson was a tackle, but some think guard might be his position. And it doesn't have to be him, it could be someone else.

 

Again, I said small, small chance, so if it doesn't happen I don't need you or someone else running around here saying I was the genius who said we would trade Bitonio...lol   Let's just say I wouldn't be totally shocked if it happened.

[Tour2ma]

10 hours ago, ballpeen said:

I am less likely to think what we saw in Teller was an outlier.

Not really... I doubt it was as well. I simply see no need to decide before 2021 is in the books... something you said was your intent as well.

As for trading Bito.... I'd be shocked enough for both of us. Approximately this shocked...

 

[ballpeen]

I'd like to get Teller done  from the standpoint that extensions while the player is under contract almost always results in some discount over if he goes full free agent.  Money in the bank today is worth more than what you might get next year.  We did that with Bitonio some years ago.

 

There is always risk when you sign a guy to a big deal.  Injury is one, but that is hard to predict.  The other is the guy kind of gives up and shows up for camp 40 lbs overweight.  That is hard to predict as well.  

 

In the end, I trust that the front office has a good feel on both fronts and do feel that at some point during the season we extend Teller.  IMO doing that will give us a bit of leverage with Bitonio and can extend him another 3 years as well.

 

A bit off topic, but the mind races early in the morning...I wish the NFL went to a cap system that didn't include QB contracts....put QB's in their own space and have max contracts set aside for them as they require such a disproportionate share of the pie.