Bob806 Posted May 28, 2021 Report Share Posted May 28, 2021 On 5/20/2021 at 6:29 PM, Dutch Oven said: Jim Kelly was not the #10 overall QB during his era. I still say Kelly was over rated. Sugar huddle made him. 175 INTs in 160 career games. Not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 6 hours ago, SdBacker80 said: I don’t think so...and that award is probably the most wide open award. No one stands out to me And LBs get the award - see Darius Leonard. If JOK flashes and looks good in preseason. Why wouldn’t he be a three down guy? And He will only benefit from the attention put on Garrett. Maybe we see the splash plays like we saw at ND with his athleticism- TD, TFLs, Sacks, INT, FF So from 2000 to 2009, 7 times the DROY was won by off-ball linebackers. Since 2010 to 2020....? Only Twice with 2012 & 2017. I presume you have ideas as to why that is. Hell, the award has been won by as many corners and in that same previous decade timespan - Marcus Peters & Marshon Lattimore. IDL & Edge have been the most common winners. So for JOK to come in and not have an obvious starting role, as evidenced by his "working in on 3rd downs" comment during mini- camp, it's easy to understand that he's ready to be a full time athlete. However he isn't quite ready to be an every down WILL backer.... Yet. You're right, things could change in camp and pre-season. But I wouldn't lock in any bet this early until I saw otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 22 hours ago, Tour2ma said: DPOY: DL dominate lately (Watt and Donald) so DuPree at +6600 under Vrabel in TN and/or Clowney at same odds. Rut-Roh.... IG: JosinaAnderson @JosinaAnderson Jadeveon Clowney clearly doing the same He-Man offseason workouts as Myles Garrett. #Browns Nick Karns @karnsies817 Jadeveon Clowney is not working this hard to go out on the field and phone it in. He's working this hard to dominate with Myles Garrett. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 Maybe Clowney will actually get a sack! 😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 10 hours ago, tiamat63 said: So from 2000 to 2009, 7 times the DROY was won by off-ball linebackers. Since 2010 to 2020....? Only Twice with 2012 & 2017. So for JOK to come in and not have an obvious starting role, as evidenced by his "working in on 3rd downs" comment during mini- camp, it's easy to understand that he's ready to be a full time athlete. However he isn't quite ready to be an every down WILL backer.... Yet. You're right, things could change in camp and pre-season. But I wouldn't lock in any bet this early until I saw otherwise. Here's a perfect example of what "Not* to do".... https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/zaven-collins-arizona-cardinals-starter-mike-lb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 58 minutes ago, gumby73 said: Here's a perfect example of what "Not* to do".... https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/zaven-collins-arizona-cardinals-starter-mike-lb Interesting move. Classically, your MIKE backer wears the helmet mic... Not sure how comfortable coach Vance feels putting a rookie in that situation along with a minor position switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 3 hours ago, tiamat63 said: Interesting move. Classically, your MIKE backer wears the helmet mic... Not sure how comfortable coach Vance feels putting a rookie in that situation along with a minor position switch. I suppose because of Hick's salary, and injuries in the past, and his size - 6'1", 236 - they went ahead and make the change, but it does put pressure on the rookie. Hicks is quite productive - it would have made more sense to let Zaven Collins EARN the starter position. If it was as soon as the first regular season game, so be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 17 hours ago, Bob806 said: I still say Kelly was over rated. Sugar huddle made him. 175 INTs in 160 career games. Not good. Dan Marino threw 252 interceptions in 242 games. Warren Moon threw 233 interceptions in 208 games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SdBacker80 Posted May 29, 2021 Report Share Posted May 29, 2021 17 hours ago, tiamat63 said: So from 2000 to 2009, 7 times the DROY was won by off-ball linebackers. Since 2010 to 2020....? Only Twice with 2012 & 2017. I presume you have ideas as to why that is. Hell, the award has been won by as many corners and in that same previous decade timespan - Marcus Peters & Marshon Lattimore. IDL & Edge have been the most common winners. So for JOK to come in and not have an obvious starting role, as evidenced by his "working in on 3rd downs" comment during mini- camp, it's easy to understand that he's ready to be a full time athlete. However he isn't quite ready to be an every down WILL backer.... Yet. You're right, things could change in camp and pre-season. But I wouldn't lock in any bet this early until I saw otherwise. 17 hours ago, tiamat63 said: So from 2000 to 2009, 7 times the DROY was won by off-ball linebackers. Since 2010 to 2020....? Only Twice with 2012 & 2017. I presume you have ideas as to why that is. Hell, the award has been won by as many corners and in that same previous decade timespan - Marcus Peters & Marshon Lattimore. IDL & Edge have been the most common winners. So for JOK to come in and not have an obvious starting role, as evidenced by his "working in on 3rd downs" comment during mini- camp, it's easy to understand that he's ready to be a full time athlete. However he isn't quite ready to be an every down WILL backer.... Yet. You're right, things could change in camp and pre-season. But I wouldn't lock in any bet this early until I saw otherwise. If he becomes an every down backer those odds may no longer be favorable. So you lock in better betting odds now. And There are no Lavante David’s standing in his way so while he may not be truly ready he may be the best guy. Mini Camp baby steps... training camp bigger steps ...preseason another step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/28/2021 at 9:13 PM, Dutch Oven said: Maybe Clowney will actually get a sack! 😉 Got the makings of a D.O. question there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 On JOK snaps... I can easily see him leading the LB room in them... early down Will... later down Sam... late and long Mike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Tour2ma said: Got the makings of a D.O. question there... Yeah, been mulling over possible 'Dutch's Questions' already... Three more months, and it'll be that time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumby73 Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/27/2021 at 10:55 PM, Tour2ma said: Congrats! HC: Robert Saleh at +2200 caught my eye... NYJ looks set to improve on their 2-14 record... only issue is it is gonna be tough road for NYJ to eek into playoffs. A couple of Saleh's AFCE brethren, Flores +1600, McDermott +1600, look attractive as well, but how can you resist Bill "I'm a Man on a mission with a reloaded roster" Belichick at +1800? Kliff Kingsbury +2800-------$100.00 DPOY: DL dominate lately (Watt and Donald) so DuPree at +6600 under Vrabel in TN and/or Clowney at same odds. Chase Young +1200----------$100.00 CBPOY: Teboe +2000, if you have to pick one... word is he's really looking the part of a TE on OTAs and you know Urban loves him. Christian McCaffrey +850---------$100.00 DROY: LBs rule this one... Cox +4000 next to Parsons in Big D looks enticing. 2nd option... Micah Parsons +500 Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah +1400-------------$100.00 OROY: Only position to spoil the recent QB run is RB... Sermon +2000 in SF looks well positioned among the longer shots, but Harris +1000 in PTG deserves strong consideration 2nd option... RB UNC Javonte Williams +1600------- will start in Denver, with a Munchuk coached OL 🤔 Ja'Marr Chase +800-------------$100.00 MVP (a/k/a The QB Award) : Mayfield +3300 jumps out. Baker Mayfield +3300------------------$100.00 (only true out of pocket) That was fun! Hitting the betting button sometime Monday.... I know me🤓 I can't trust Tua..and won't trust Dak/Stafford or Burrow coming off those injuries.. Mahomes & or Rogers are about as betting vanilla as choosing Arians & or Andy Reid...and that's just not me... I can be talked off two.. Ja'marr Chase...just don't see a QB winning this OROY.. Looks to be RB or WR.. guessing i'll trust Burrow more, throwing from behind... JOK... rotational LB snap counts are concerning...comparing to Parsons, Davis & Paye whom may already have starting depth chart roles.. Call me a homer,...that see's myself rooting Browns.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 2 hours ago, gumby73 said: (only true out of pocket) Vegas loves that attytude... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted May 30, 2021 Report Share Posted May 30, 2021 On 5/29/2021 at 11:59 AM, Dutch Oven said: Dan Marino threw 252 interceptions in 242 games. Warren Moon threw 233 interceptions in 208 games. At one time, including there era in which Marino, Moon and Kelly played, a 1:1 TD to Int. ratio was pretty common, even considered good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 Amazing - Marino and Mayfield - the only two to throw 11,ooo yards their first three years? https://www.brownsnation.com/mayfield-shares-historic-stats-with-dan-marino-through-3-seasons/ Mayfield Shares Historic Stats With Dan Marino Through 3 Seasons "In their first 3 seasons, only two players in NFL history have at least 11k pass yds, 75 pass TD, and an 89 passer rating: Baker Mayfield Dan Marino " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 On 6/1/2021 at 1:44 PM, calfoxwc said: Amazing - Marino and Mayfield - the only two to throw 11,ooo yards their first three years? https://www.brownsnation.com/mayfield-shares-historic-stats-with-dan-marino-through-3-seasons/ Mayfield Shares Historic Stats With Dan Marino Through 3 Seasons "In their first 3 seasons, only two players in NFL history have at least 11k pass yds, 75 pass TD, and an 89 passer rating: Baker Mayfield Dan Marino " Stats like that, meme's and quotes are.... I hesitate to say 'Inaccurate". So I'll say slanted instead. Either way they attempt to generate hype in a way that is rather misleading. Because instead of going off the first full 3 seasons played, they're going off the first 3 seasons in the NFL period. This discounts multiple good QB's in the the last 12-13 years alone. Rodgers, Mahomes, Luck, and damn near Cam Newton, Matty Ice and Tony Romo. Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure Russell Wilson was probably pretty close as well. I'm not saying I'm not excited for the upcoming season and I'm glad to have Baker on this team. But we attempt to place these players up there with historic company and thus their accomplishments to generate that hype. Pace yourselves, friends. The season is a grind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 1 hour ago, tiamat63 said: Stats like that, meme's and quotes are.... I hesitate to say 'Inaccurate". So I'll say slanted instead. Either way they attempt to generate hype in a way that is rather misleading. Because instead of going off the first full 3 seasons played, they're going off the first 3 seasons in the NFL period. This discounts multiple good QB's in the the last 12-13 years alone. Rodgers, Mahomes, Luck, and damn near Cam Newton, Matty Ice and Tony Romo. Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure Russell Wilson was probably pretty close as well. I'm not saying I'm not excited for the upcoming season and I'm glad to have Baker on this team. But we attempt to place these players up there with historic company and thus their accomplishments to generate that hype. Pace yourselves, friends. The season is a grind. Well....Baker DID hold the rookie record for most TDs in his rookie season, until Justin Herbert broke it this past season. That was not a slanted or inaccurate statistic. Perhaps a better thing to look at for a young QB is: Which QBs led their teams to a Championship in their first 3 years in the league. Here they are: Championships won in Year One: Otto Graham. This applies to both his time in the AAFC and the NFL. He won titles in his first year in both leagues Bob Waterfield. Won NFL title in his rookie year in 1945 with the Cleveland Rams Sammy Baugh. Won title his rookie year of 1937 with the Redskins NO rookie won a Championship in his rookie year in the Super Bowl era Championships won in Year Two: Sid Luckman Bears Kurt Warner Rams (though he played some years in the Arena League, his 1999 SB victory was only his 2d year in the NFL Tom Brady Pats. Ben Roethlisberger Steelers Russell Wilson Seahawks Championships in Year Three: Johnny Unitas Joe Montana Patrick Mahomes Every name above either is in or is headed into the PFHOF it would seem (BR/Wilson/Mahomes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Oven Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 Passing stats in the NFL are akin to strikeout totals by pitchers in the MLB. In comparison to other eras, almost every QB is going to look like Joe Montana just like almost every pitcher looks like Bob Feller now. I mean, it's a nice fact, but Baker might be in the top 10 QBs in the NFL right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 48 minutes ago, The Gipper said: Well....Baker DID hold the rookie record for most TDs in his rookie season, until Justin Herbert broke it this past season. That was not a slanted or inaccurate statistic. That wasn't in the link or meme. So....... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 I'd prefer a comparison to a QB that won at least one SB... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 2, 2021 Report Share Posted June 2, 2021 Just now, tiamat63 said: That wasn't in the link or meme. So....... That should leave a mark! But we all know it won't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calfoxwc Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 3 hours ago, tiamat63 said: Stats like that, meme's and quotes are.... I hesitate to say 'Inaccurate". So I'll say slanted instead. Either way they attempt to generate hype in a way that is rather misleading. Because instead of going off the first full 3 seasons played, they're going off the first 3 seasons in the NFL period. This discounts multiple good QB's in the the last 12-13 years alone. so......Baker started week 3 of his rookie year, started all 16 games in 2019, started all 16 games in 2020...so.... it WAS his first three seasons played, he just didn't start the first two.... and still ranks up there with Marino ........isn't that even a bit MORE impressive? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 2 hours ago, tiamat63 said: That wasn't in the link or meme. So....... So.....that is why I gave you more meaningful stats. The rookie TD record and the one on the championships......because that is, after all, what really counts. Fair to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 12 hours ago, calfoxwc said: so......Baker started week 3 of his rookie year, started all 16 games in 2019, started all 16 games in 2020...so.... it WAS his first three seasons played, he just didn't start the first two.... and still ranks up there with Marino ........isn't that even a bit MORE impressive? Either you've misunderstood my post or I'm misunderstanding yours. My point being is the slant of this particular stat line is exclusionary because it ONLY counts the first 3 seasons in the NFL, played or riding the pine ( example -Rodgers) If it was first 3 seasons played at the position, it would be a much longer list. Baker has this distinction because he, much like many of rookies, were thrown in the fire very early. If we want a more apt comparison, going off those first 48 games would produce a more honest stat line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiamat63 Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 10 hours ago, The Gipper said: So.....that is why I gave you more meaningful stats. The rookie TD record and the one on the championships......because that is, after all, what really counts. Fair to say. Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied. This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards". Doesn't factor into this particular discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 12 minutes ago, tiamat63 said: Either of those things were and are irrelevant to this conversation and the stats applied. This would be like me bringing up interception percentage and you going " yeah, but check out Bakers rushing yards". Doesn't factor into this particular discussion. The overall broad topic of discussion seems to me to be: How well does a particular QB perform early in his career. I think that having the record for most TD as a rookie, or winning a championship in your first 3 years fairly well factors into that overall topic. i agree with you that the statistic cited, "Dan Marino and Baker Mayfield are the only 2 QBs to do yada yada in their first 3 years" is one of those hyper inclusive stats that are sometime cited that can be meaningless. Kind of like saying "Only 3 players in history ever did stugotz: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and Schmucky Schwartz.....the implication of which is that Schmucky Schwartz can somehow be equated to the other two (when he clearly cannot). Here is a stat that I hope that Baker and Marino do not end up together on: Great QBs who never won a Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 Nevertheless, the question was asked...or it was pointed out that a better metric would be: who did the best through their first 48 games. Here is that stat, See the link: https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/which-quarterback-has-the-most-passing-yards-in-their-first-48-games Top Ten in Yards Mahomes, Warner, Stafford, Luck, Bulger, Marino, Watson, Winston, Cousins, Goff.....Baker is 15th. Top Ten in TDs: Mahomes, Warner, Marino, Watson, Luck, Stafford, Palmer, Wentz, Carr, Baker...10th In some other categories for Baker: Comp. % 10th; Completions 20th, Attempts: 17th; Yards per comp: 15th; Yards per game 15th, TD% 7th, Rating 10th. Of course, keep in mind the way the game has changed. All these guys who are tops in TDs and yards in their first 48 games played in the 21st century primarily...except Marino. Note that the likes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, Terry Bradshaw and others didn't make these lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted June 3, 2021 Report Share Posted June 3, 2021 Another interesting article on QBs in their first 48 games, for stat geeks. http://www.footballperspective.com/russell-wilson-and-other-quarterbacks-through-48-starts/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted June 4, 2021 Report Share Posted June 4, 2021 On 6/2/2021 at 7:51 PM, calfoxwc said: isn't that even a bit MORE impressive? Marino started only 9 games his rookie year... and appeared in only 2 others. So.... no... FYI.... the other 6 'Fins starts were divided between Woodley (5) and Don Strock (2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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