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***DIVISIONAL ROUND: Browns AT Chiefs Gameday Thread***


Nero

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1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

 He won't be there, so it really doesn't matter.

In some Narnia-land-ass pipe dream? That's beyond an easy call.    His footwork and strong hands are just special.

Of course he won't, but there was some confusion about who someone who Gipper was replying to was talking about. So that is where the question came from.

No doubt that he is special, and I think he fits on any team, but WR just isn't a need on this team. So if Smith is left, but you also have 3 d guys left rated in 1st round, I take the D guy

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5 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Of course he won't, but there was some confusion about who someone who Gipper was replying to was talking about. So that is where the question came from.

No doubt that he is special, and I think he fits on any team, but WR just isn't a need on this team. So if Smith is left, but you also have 3 d guys left rated in 1st round, I take the D guy

Depends on the defensive player, position and where I have them ranked in their said position group. Smith is WR #1 in this draft.   If I get the best player to fall to me (without medical concern) and my option is him against, let's say the 5th rated LB? - then I'm taking the receiver.    

This defense needs help, zero doubt about that and I'm sure my amateur eyes will find some great additions day 2 and beyond.   But the offense is what cost the Browns a date with Buffalo. Don't be so quick to dismiss our need for a true perimeter threat, especially if ODB doesn't come back healthy.  

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44 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Sorry if you can't keep up.  

Yeah, I think I (and everyone else here) will take my years and years of experience and knowledge in the game as opposed to a judge who has admitted on this site never played a down???

Prove it.   Provide your resume.  (and why with all your experience do you not know how to copy and paste?)

I'm guessing this is supposed to be somehow directed at me. Which if so makes it even funnier, since you are trying to discredit based on not knowing how to copy and paste, and didn't even tag the correct person. And 2, I have no idea how that has a thing to do with football knowledge but ok???

And secondly, I don't care what you or anyone else believes. But I absolutely am not going to put my personal information online somewhere that I don't know the security of it, especially with people I don't know (and that is absolutely no offense to anyone). I'm pretty dumb, but not that dumb.

I don't know why everyone else believes me, and you don't want to. I certainly don't know what I would have to gain by lying about that? But go ahead and believe what you want

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1 minute ago, Gunz41 said:

I'm guessing this is supposed to be somehow directed at me. Which if so makes it even funnier, since you are trying to discredit based on not knowing how to copy and paste, and didn't even tag the correct person. And 2, I have no idea how that has a thing to do with football knowledge but ok???

And secondly, I don't care what you or anyone else believes. But I absolutely am not going to put my personal information online somewhere that I don't know the security of it, especially with people I don't know (and that is absolutely no offense to anyone). I'm pretty dumb, but not that dumb.

I don't know why everyone else believes me, and you don't want to. I certainly don't know what I would have to gain by lying about that? But go ahead and believe what you want

Just fucking with you.  I believe you are Knute Rockne reincarnated!  

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2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Depends on the defensive player, position and where I have them ranked in their said position group. Smith is WR #1 in this draft.   If I get the best player to fall to me (without medical concern) and my option is him against, let's say the 5th rated LB? - then I'm taking the receiver.    

This defense needs help, zero doubt about that and I'm sure my amateur eyes will find some great additions day 2 and beyond.   But the offense is what cost the Browns a date with Buffalo. Don't be so quick to dismiss our need for a true perimeter threat, especially if ODB doesn't come back healthy.  

I agree, but I am basing that off of OBJ being back. If he is gone then absolutely. But again it depends on what is left. 

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Just now, The Gipper said:

Just fucking with you.  I believe you are Knute Rockne reincarnated!  

Nobody said that, I don't even pretend to be the most knowledgeable person on this board, certainly don't know more than A LOT of people in the country, and of course I am biased, but I have a coaching father who knows more than me (shh. Dont tell him that).

My whole point with that, is that someone who hasn't been there (nothing wrong with that, and not saying NFL obviously) may not have the same insight 

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8 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

I agree, but I am basing that off of OBJ being back. If he is gone then absolutely. But again it depends on what is left. 

There's a lot that will go into such a decision between now and the draft.

But there's a couple things yesterday hightlighted. 

- Defenses don't fear our speed

- In order to utilize the misdirection and sweeps like KC does, we're going to need our... How did @Tour2ma put it?  "Jitterbug" receiver.    

 

Chiefs didn't have to do it much with Hardman, only a few times.  But those few times really contributes to slowing down edge rush and widening out/freezing linebackers.  Stef would be wise in this copycat league to make those sorts of instant offense plays a priority in the off-season.   

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1 minute ago, Gunz41 said:

Nobody said that, I don't even pretend to be the most knowledgeable person on this board, certainly don't know more than A LOT of people in the country, and of course I am biased, but I have a coaching father who knows more than me (shh. Dont tell him that).

My whole point with that, is that someone who hasn't been there (nothing wrong with that, and not saying NFL obviously) may not have the same insight 

I never claimed to have the same insight...into that sort of thing.    Its why I have been asking about this "fit" situation.

I mean, Dutch says "take the best defensive player on the board, regardless of position".    Then I say..."what about Barmore"    He says  "only if he is a fit".  I say:  "doesn't a guy that can stop the run and rush the passer fit".    And he goes off on that as if  he was Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son.     So, I ask:  what did I miss there?  What "insight" did I not have? 

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I don’t think you can rule out any position on defense in the first round. 
 

Another stud DE may be a great choice.  
 

Our D. Coordinator who we are probably stuck with loves getting pressure with just his front 4. 
 

Maybe a better pass rushing presence interior Dlineman.

 I know We need some LBs when you have Myles Garrett chasing down backs 40 yards downfield with no LB in sight - you got problems there too. 

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6 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

I don’t think you can rule out any position on defense in the first round. 
 

Another stud DE may be a great choice.  
 

Our D. Coordinator who we are probably stuck with loves getting pressure with just his front 4. 
 

Maybe a better pass rushing presence interior Dlineman.

 I know We need some LBs when you have Myles Garrett chasing down backs 40 yards downfield with no LB in sight - you got problems there too. 

That's called "literally any D cord ever".

If I'm forcing the issue with the smallest amount of rushers, then why change and expose my LB's along with my secondary?    You should probably check the Browns pressure rates on the season against those from the previous few years when we blitzed 15-25% more.    You might find yourself surprised.

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That's called "literally any D cord ever".

If I'm forcing the issue with the smallest amount of rushers, then why change and expose my LB's along with my secondary?    You should probably check the Browns pressure rates on the season against those from the previous few years when we blitzed 15-25% more.    You might find yourself surprised.

Absolutely but what’s the next move when your front 4 can’t get enough pressure?

I found myself surprised throughout the year at different points when we let a guy like Mike Glennon sit in a pocket for 6 seconds each play for 60 minutes.  

I see this sit back and have an extra guy vs blitz scenario a little differently...you think it’s exposing a secondary when you take a guy away from coverage.  I see bringing an extra blitzer as a way to force an errant throw or get a sack or a throwaway and force a punt...we know we don’t force many of those right?  Throughout the year our extra guy or two in coverage seemingly couldn’t find WRs or impact throwing lanes.  I’m not saying bring it every down.

Guys like Jackson, MJ Stewart, etc bless their hearts they try....but I don’t want see them cover crossing routes for 6-7 seconds.  

The other issue is a personnel issue...I like Joseph but aside from the fair catch INT he had I really don’t like him in a role of reading the field and playing coverage...so I’d prefer he attack the QB more.  it’s not Woods fault that Delpit went out but your job sometimes is to turn chicken $h!t into chicken salad or adapt just a tad outside your conservative nature...that’s coaching. 
 

Woods with four Dudes upfront...probably amazing.  So why don’t we get those dudes?

 


 

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10 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

Absolutely but what’s the next move when your front 4 can’t get enough pressure?

I found myself surprised throughout the year at different points when we let a guy like Mike Glennon sit in a pocket for 6 seconds each play for 60 minutes.  

I see this sit back and have an extra guy vs blitz scenario a little differently...you think it’s exposing a secondary when you take a guy away from coverage.  I see bringing an extra blitzer as a way to force an errant throw or get a sack or a throwaway and force a punt...we know we don’t force many of those right?  Throughout the year our extra guy or two in coverage seemingly couldn’t find WRs or impact throwing lanes. 

The other issue is a personnel issue...I like Joseph but aside from the fair catch INT he had I really don’t like him in a role of reading the field and playing coverage...so I’d prefer he attack the QB more.  it’s not Woods fault that Delpit went out but your job sometimes is to turn chicken $h!t into chicken salad.


 

The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate.    When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best.   So if my return on investment isn't worth it, then I'm kind of fucked... no?

You'll notice a small shift in defensive philosophy over the second half of the season.   Remember all the single high looks Sendejo and Joesph were being burned on? Those started to not be so noticeable the last 8 weeks, huh?   That's because, in getting away from the C3 and C1 alignments Woods favored in Denver,  went went to more C2, C6 and quarters here hoping to limit....wait for it...  our DB's (not named Ward or Mitch) exposure as much as he possibly could.   So there is a self-awareness the man has of his own roster and what he was able to call reliably this season.   Hint - it wasn't much.

I don't think sending a 5th or 6th immediately exposes a secondary.   But I think (know) it immediately exposes the Browns secondary.   Because outside of Ward and Mitch, they're really not starting quality.   Does it hurt a team like the Rams? No, they have starting quality DB's across the board.   We can't say the same here in CLE, sadly.  

Personnel is your first and foremost concern with this defense.   Any conversation to changes beyond that without addressing the former is just spinning wheels. 

 

 

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The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate.    When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best.

I don't think sending a 5th or 6th immediately exposes a secondary.   But I think (know) it immediately exposes the Browns secondary.   Because outside of Ward and Mitch, they're really not starting quality.   Does it hurt a team like the Rams? No, they have starting quality DB's across the board.   We can't say the same here in CLE, sadly.  

Personnel is your first and foremost concern with this defense.   Any conversation to changes beyond that without addressing the former is just spinning wheels. 

 

 

We had some explosive plays our way when we pressured too.  One of the few plays we made on defense in week 17 was a pressure and a pick.  And we had some explosive plays the other way with 7 guys back and miscommunication- see the Jets game.  I lost count here but we seemingly had enough communication breakdowns in our secondary to fill a 2-3 seasons. 


So we are better off watching a guy like Joseph try in coverage 90% of the time vs. 70% of the time- where he creeps up to the LOS more often and chasing down the QB? 
 

When you communicate like we did in the back 7 I think you help a guy more the less time he has to spend trailing in coverage. 

I know we have personnel issues but I’m talking myself more and more into hoping we land an impact front 4 player.  

 

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8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The issue is when your explosive plays given up rises commensurately with the blitz rate.    When the Browns sent 5 men or more this year, the pressure rate increase was marginal at best.   So if my return on investment isn't worth it, then I'm kind of fucked... no?

You'll notice a small shift in defensive philosophy over the second half of the season.   Remember all the single high looks Sendejo and Joesph were being burned on? Those started to not be so noticeable the last 8 weeks, huh?   That's because, in getting away from the C3 and C1 alignments Woods favored in Denver,  went went to more C2, C6 and quarters here hoping to limit....wait for it...  our DB's (not named Ward or Mitch) exposure as much as he possibly could.   So there is a self-awareness the man has of his own roster and what he was able to call reliably this season.   Hint - it wasn't much.

I don't think sending a 5th or 6th immediately exposes a secondary.   But I think (know) it immediately exposes the Browns secondary.   Because outside of Ward and Mitch, they're really not starting quality.   Does it hurt a team like the Rams? No, they have starting quality DB's across the board.   We can't say the same here in CLE, sadly.  

Personnel is your first and foremost concern with this defense.   Any conversation to changes beyond that without addressing the former is just spinning wheels. 

 

 

The Change from C1 to C2 (the most noticeable one for me) is huge. The safeties have way less field to cover. It also changed from the "big play to Sendejo and TD" approach to shorter passes of 5-10 yards, and I think that helped the team. 

I feel like Woods has been all season long juggling in order to hide the personnel problems of the defense. We have had games where they got really few points and other ones where they were exposed, and the only consistent pattern I see is the defenders executing or not. 

The ammount of INTs the secondary has dropped tells you a lot about the quality of the group. 

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9 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

We had some explosive plays our way when we pressured too.  One of the few plays we made on defense in week 17 was a pressure and a pick.  And we had some explosive plays the other way with 7 guys back and miscommunication- see the Jets game.  I lost count here but we seemingly had enough communication breakdowns in our secondary to fill a 2-3 seasons. 


So we are better off watching a guy like Joseph try in coverage 90% of the time vs. 70% of the time- where he creeps up to the LOS more often and chasing down the QB? 
 

When you communicate like we did in the back 7 I think you help a guy more the less time he has to spend trailing in coverage. 

I know we have personnel issues but I’m talking myself more and more into hoping we land an impact front 4 player.  

 

Then you have to take into consideration game dependent plans as well.  Scheming additonal pressure against Mason Rudolph here and there sound gravy.

Doing that against Mahomes? Last I checked, on the 2020 season against the blitz he's 13TD, 0INT's for a 138.8 rating.    Sending additional bodies against that man is football suicide.   

Lost in all of this is that it was the offense, not the defense, who really shipped away yesterdays game.  

9 minutes ago, Nero said:

The Change from C1 to C2 (the most noticeable one for me) is huge. The safeties have way less field to cover. It also changed from the "big play to Sendejo and TD" approach to shorter passes of 5-10 yards, and I think that helped the team. 

I feel like Woods has been all season long juggling in order to hide the personnel problems of the defense. We have had games where they got really few points and other ones where they were exposed, and the only consistent pattern I see is the defenders executing or not. 

The ammount of INTs the secondary has dropped tells you a lot about the quality of the group. 

I wouldn't go that far.   My experience is that if you cant get off the hashes, playing a lot of 2man MOTO can be just as shitty an idea.     So if you have 2 questionable players on the backend, the problem can be magnified in different ways.     So you can play some form of 2 shell and scheme up different spot drop depths when you go zone. Maybe I'm able to carry receivers up the seam or up the perimeter a bit farther to help my safeties out.  But when you run into a team like KC who was finally willing to work the underneath game....    Well, then that becomes the trade off.  

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8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

@SdBacker80

Wanted to say I appreciate the exhange.  Even if we end up disagreeing, I'm good hearing rational opposing viewpoints.

Me too.  The Browns are headed in the right direction I think we all can agree there.  
 

Im happy we aren’t all arguing over HC, GM, QB options as we normally are during this time. 
 

Issues we have now are not insurmountable 

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Some thoughts:   

We shoulda' won that game.  We squandered a golden opportunity with their star QB knocked out of the game.  Going down the stretch, both sides of the ball let the team down, collectively.

Wills went out, Lamm promptly went out, a guy named Blake wearing #62 was our left tackle.  Nice!  Conklin was no doubt not at 100% with the hamstring, but he HAD to play.  

Myles Garret was playing injured.  

Yet with all that, the game was there for the taking.  A Championship Game appearance, stumbled away over the final 5 minutes.

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1 hour ago, browns52 said:

our dc sucks......

Not saying he is great, but he was severely hamstrung this year. Brand new, not a lot of prep time because of covid, and then add on the injuries/covid, and even then those guys just might not be starting caliber guys.

Sure, the Chiefs probably score over 30 with Mahomes, but they are the defending Champs and I think are still the favorite to repeat. You don't think that Woods and his gameplan had a thing to do with that? Especially when considering that there are 2 positions on the D that aren't looked at as major needs? Garrett and Ward.

There is nobody individually in the league that can hold Hill, the closest would be Ramsey. But if you double him, they also have the best TE in the league. They are a GREAT offense of talent and a great mind at HC and OC. How Bieniemy doesn't have a HC job is crazy.

Running a zone defense is what you do predominantly when you are overmatched. And don't forget, that even if he isn't brought back (I wouldn't with his price tag and having other guys to prioritize resigning and extensions) that Vernon was playing a big part, especially when you factor in Myles just wasn't the same guy after Covid. 

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21 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

This needs movement.  Somewhat unpopular opinion around here though. 

It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes. 

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7 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

It's funny because he does some good things but he chokes too often in critical scenarios. I can't get over the 4th down numbers, the 3rd and 10 against McSorely, and the 3rd and longs with Henne. I'm not sure he has what it takes. 

Teams were 27 for 32 on 4th down this year against the Browns...that’s bad. 

and I saw Lots of finger pointing on blown coverages all year.  
 

 

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So apparently mahomes doesn't have a concussion, a surgeon who also covers the steelers tweeted today that his uneasiness could be attributed to a vasogal response and his blood pressure dropped.  The chiefs are saying pinched nerve.  I was hoping to watch them flounder with Henne under center. 

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Browns' Myles Garrett denies teammates were 'headhunting' amid Patrick Mahomes injury

 

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/browns-myles-garrett-denies-teammates-headhunting-patrick-mahomes-injury

Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce made the claim after the win, telling reporters he heard Browns players yelling, "That’s what we do. That’s what we do."

 

"I want to say that nobody on our team is headhunting, going after guys or trying to hurt a guy, no matter how good he is," Garrett said, via 92.3 The Fan. "We are praying for [Mahomes’] recovery and praying for his success. He has always been a quality guy and the way he does stuff for the community. He is a leader on and off the field that you appreciate seeing, especially from a guy of that caliber and just always trying to be a positive force everywhere he goes."

 

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23 minutes ago, FALCON7 said:

What if Chiefs punted on 4th down?  Browns have around 1 minute and no T'O's to go 80 to maybe 98 yards. Chances of scoring a td are what?  Maybe 5% at best...  

There was actually almost 2 mins left.  And We saw some big chunk pass plays.  
 

I’m going to say 20%-25%

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20 hours ago, D Bone said:

For sure! I have never been so happy to be so wrong regarding Baker. He's our dude for the next 7-10 years and he is good enough to win a Super Bowl if we can put a defense around him. 

Pretty sure that would constitute "too many men on the field."

16 hours ago, D Bone said:

my 53 years of life

No wonder those 30-something riders get pissed.

11 hours ago, PoeticG said:

You're right, he was down. Went and watched it again... Mack knocked the ball out just after he hit the ground, that's what I saw.

Knee was down... ground knocked the ball loose momentarily and Mahommes reflexively pulled it back to him.

Last part was actually quite impressive considering the stars he was seeing at that moment.

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8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Depends on the defensive player, position and where I have them ranked in their said position group. Smith is WR #1 in this draft.   If I get the best player to fall to me (without medical concern) and my option is him against, let's say the 5th rated LB? - then I'm taking the receiver.

Whole thing was a hypothetical I put up as rebuttal to posts for us to reflexively take the BPA on the defensive side when our first round pick rolls around.

8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

But the offense is what cost the Browns a date with Buffalo. Don't be so quick to dismiss our need for a true perimeter threat, especially if ODB doesn't come back healthy.  

We're lockstep on this...

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8 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

But there's a couple things yesterday hightlighted. 

- Defenses don't fear our speed

- In order to utilize the misdirection and sweeps like KC does, we're going to need our... How did @Tour2ma put it?  "Jitterbug" receiver.    

Yup...Never more in evidence than our that pathetic "Jet sweep" with Landry we tried yesterday.

And why we were trying to run wide escapes me. I think we had one successful sweep... the one to the right with Tretter and Teller pulling.

 

Obviously the need for speed is true on our D-side as well. Especially in at least 4 of our back 7. Hopefully Delpit makes it 3... Greedy could make it 2, but... Greedy... :rolleyes:

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