2021 'Who are you watching?' NFL prospect thread.

[MLD Woody]

25 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The Machine Shop will be open around 1pm EST to finish up the 2nd half of Patrick Jones v Lou.  Might skip forward at that point to a couple games later in the 2020 season to look for signs of improvement. 

After that? Dealers choice.  We could watch Zaven Collins, that kid out of TCU (Moerhig? - spell check)   I think there were a couple requests from locals, just can't recall.    

 

@TexasAg1969 didn't you want Basham (another spell check) from the U? 

@MLD Woody I believe you wanted Kwity?  

 

Either way, I have a Sunday to myself. Going to relax and watch some film.   If you don't have the discord info, check back in the thread or feel free to PM.  Not sure what album we'll be listening to yet.

Sure, Kwity would be interesting. The biggest boost to his stock was going to be the combine unfortunately. 

Looks like he'll be gone by the time we pick, even though we could use another DE. 

Feel free to pick whoever you want. I just like reading the michigan scouting reports.

[tiamat63]

Patrick Jones v LOU 2020

 

@ 0:11 - Keep outside shoulder free and eyes up with inital job to get outside of that stretch guard.  Extends arms when generating contact, eyes working, uses contact momentum to get off block and works to the QB.

@ 1:05 -   Still feeling like he comes out of his stance higher than what he should be.  Initiates contact with arms, lower pad level then chest and shoulder contact.
          Leg drive acceptable but still needs to work on remaining lower, great upper body strength and walks the tackle back to the QB trying to free inside shoulder leverage.
          OT play is average, not a natural waist bender and overset to the edge.  Good on Jonesy for capitalizing. 

  
@ 1:25 - LT and LG on an X (cross) block.  Nothing really special here, plays his assignment right getting outside of and holding a hard edge. 
         X block is when a tackle and guard (usually weakside) exchange assignment. So you'll have a tackle move for a downblock while the guard peels and looks for the edge. 
         Really just meant to give your tackles a better blocking angle and first step to take on bigger assignments. 

@ 1:45 - I know I can't be the only one who see's his first few steps.  I swear, I need a speed coach in here to better articulate what I'm seeing and trying to say.   
         But there is a good reason Patrick has a nice first step but doesn't have that elite speed to the edge.  

@ 2:17 - Stance, to first step to that initial dominant lead foot push.  This rep was a piss-poor example of bending around and turning the edge.  I don't think PJ is a bad athlete and I'm sure his pro day numbers will look good.  But I can't help and feel his technique is costing him his burst that actually would allow him to really attack, dip/sink and bend.  Instead of his hips sinking and his body turning to minimize contact, Patrick really just lowers his shoulders and his head (eyes low, can't see target) into the tackle, hands behind him like he's some kind of sprinter, and his upper body weight too far out  in front of his base.  Therefore beyond being compact and in control. 

@ 2:47 - Locked up, slide to his side. But does a good job keeping eyes on the QB, shedding the tackle and reading scramble drill at least.

@ 3:12 - Protection bust on a slant.  Guard is expecting the center to pick up Jones, free path to the QB.  

@ 3:35 - The 3-3 looks like Pitt uses on passing downs. They do a good job of slanting and opening rush lanes for their designated pass rushers.
        The movement from the 2pt rushers has a decent effect confusing blocking assignments pre-snap.  Here with the nose playing a bit of a shade and the LB on the Noses' hip, 
        The center and the guard have to account for them if they're both attacking.  Free's up Jonesy on the RT.     Rt oversets just a couple steps and again leans into the contact with his eyes down. Jonesy see's this similar tech (or at least the coaches did and were probably in his ear about it on the sides)   show's that spin move, which is by no means polished, but at least  It's a glimpse into a younger player working to have a counter move.     Want to see what a spin-move should look like?  Youtube Dwight Freeney.  Best spin move I've ever seen IMHO.The hip sink needs improvement.  What PJ DOES do great here with the spin is the club with the right hand, which naturally turns your shoulders and torso outside, then uses the left arm for momentum/push off and further balance.  I like seeing the machinery, but the tools themselves need refined.   Hey, that's better than a lot of these kids that don't even display this much at least. QB does a decent job being an athlete, trying to get out of the rush. Jones never gives up and finishes off the pressure after missing the sack at first. 

        Side note - #17 has flashed a few times over the last game and 1/2.

@ 3:52 - Good example of his raw strength, playing as the "closed" end here.   Toss in the guard not playing technically sound, opening his shoulders and getting slapped around.    Arms and contact working to keep the guard to his inside shoulder.  Eyes up pushing upfield into the gap, shows up out of control but the length he has allows him to disrupt ANY running lane the RB had on the IZ to that call.  Rest of the defense rallies to the ball.    Ideally that's a play I need to see you Make when you win like that so clearly off snap. But at the moment I'll settle for the fact I see a ton of developmental potential.

@ 4:23 - I can't tell if this is a really shitty short-set by the OT, which given what I've seen so far wouldn't surprise me.  Or if this is a technique by design from the LOU coaching staff to take advantage of PJ's willingness to fly up field at times and taking himself out of plays.   Either way, he doesn't go for it and does a decent job stacking on and rolling around the tackle while trying to keep the ball carrier in reach to disengage.

@ 4:39 - #17 - getting ahead of a sift block and generating pressure.  This was the play LOU housed from earlier in the game, minus the fact they didn't bring the upback through the hole to the zone side. They tried to use him to throw this sift at the WDE.

@ 5:10 - Leaving your feet is exactly how you get fucked up.  I have zero idea what this was trying to be.

@ 5:47 - Good "feel" with the release of the lineman trying to work this screen.  Get into the throwing lane and make life hell on the QB trying to float it high to the perimeter.

 

 

Opinion really hasn't changed after 2 full games.   Physically a wonderfully gifted player but limited, if not outright handicapped, by his lack of polish.  Once again saw a couple tools here or there, I'm sure some coach(es) somewhere will always believe they can take those one or two things and turn them into an arsenal.  And they may be very right about that.   But there are many worse prospect,  physically gifted, that you could have to work with to mold into a decent NFL player.    Still rather muddle on a greater assessment that will be more clear with the later season watches.  As of the LOU game? I'm not putting a 1st round pick into this kid if I'm Barry.   Not because I don't believe he could be a contributor, but because if the Browns want to open and keep open a Superbowl window for the next 3-5, then I need immediate players/starters with my 1st round picks.    Right now Jones is a rotational player while you work with him to grow a more consistent skill set and playing style.

         

  
 

 

[TexasAg1969]

2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The Machine Shop will be open around 1pm EST to finish up the 2nd half of Patrick Jones v Lou.  Might skip forward at that point to a couple games later in the 2020 season to look for signs of improvement. 

After that? Dealers choice.  We could watch Zaven Collins, that kid out of TCU (Moerhig? - spell check)   I think there were a couple requests from locals, just can't recall.    

 

@TexasAg1969 didn't you want Basham (another spell check) from the U? 

@MLD Woody I believe you wanted Kwity?  

 

Either way, I have a Sunday to myself. Going to relax and watch some film.   If you don't have the discord info, check back in the thread or feel free to PM.  Not sure what album we'll be listening to yet.

Dutch was asking for Basham. I have no memory of pre-winterization of Texas and securing COVID vaccines (just completed the 2nd  on Wed.) simultaneously. 🤪 

On 2/7/2021 at 9:22 AM, Dutch Oven said:

I'm hoping for a Carlos Basham, Jr. breakdown.... 

 

[gumby73]

I'm hoping for a Carlos Basham, Jr. breakdown.... 

 

Ian Cummings is a fair ACC writer.. imo. this is not far off from late January..  https://www.profootballnetwork.com/carlos-basham-jr-nfl-draft-player-profile-wake-forest-edge-rusher/ 

I'm interested to read, if he trims down or up? from Senior Bowl to his Pro day?

[Unsympathetic]

I'd like to see tape on Zaven from Tulsa.. Tulsa plays a lot of tight front with LB's nesting from A to C gap; coverage-wise it's 100% spot drop zone.. Super athletic, sure, but some NFL DC's have said they couldn't teach him over/under/etc concepts in an entire offseason.  He's never played a down of man pass defense.. I have concerns..

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

I'd like to see tape on Zaven from Tulsa.. Tulsa plays a lot of tight front with LB's nesting from A to C gap; coverage-wise it's 100% spot drop zone.. Super athletic, sure, but some NFL DC's have said they couldn't teach him over/under/etc concepts in an entire offseason.  He's never played a down of man pass defense.. I have concerns..

   As a huge Zaven Collins fan - it is a concern - does he have NFL coverage man to man speed? don't know. he does have outstanding instincts, but at the pro level....

 

[calfoxwc]

  Regardless, I'm still also a big fan of Jabril Cox. He might break a 4.6 forty. I've compared Cox to Ray Lewis, and

have compared Collins to Clay Mathews of the Browns. I don't know his eval at man to man, you betcha - but he's still my

first round draft pick - I think Zaven Collins goes well before the Browns' pick at 26. And Jabril is gone by the Browns next pick.

We'll see ...

 

[gumby73]

On 3/4/2021 at 6:51 AM, gumby73 said:

I've kept my eyes on a few days of these.. The debate is "official* 40 times clocking".. Regardless... This is still fast for a Browns scouted twice WR last season... https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/02/27/rashod-bateman-runs-a-sub-4-4-40-yard-dash-at-exos-combine/?partner=Yahoo

Former WR Brandon Marshall's, 'House of Athletes' combine runs from 3-5-21 thru 3-7-21.. It can be streamed at FoxSports.com .. Glenn Cook is the Browns VP of player personal.      https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2021/03/03/nfl-combine-2021-scratched-how-evaluate-draft-prospects/6891217002/

Here's a few results from EXOS & B.Marshall's fitness center tune-up combines...  https://www.rotoviz.com/2021/03/2021-nfl-pro-day-season-schedule-results/

This just in.. DB's Eric Stokes & Kary Vincent Jr. are fast 👀... Denzel Ward ran a 4.32

Pro days continue Tuesday..Northwestern=== Browns scouts will attend

[tiamat63]

When I finish up with Jones I'll get Basham per @Dutch Oven then move to Collins.

 

Edit: kind of lonely in the film room, by the way.  Figured we would have more interested eyes while creeping up on Draft day.

[SdBacker80]

6 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

  Regardless, I'm still also a big fan of Jabril Cox. He might break a 4.6 forty. I've compared Cox to Ray Lewis, and

have compared Collins to Clay Mathews of the Browns. I don't know his eval at man to man, you betcha - but he's still my

first round draft pick - I think Zaven Collins goes well before the Browns' pick at 26. And Jabril is gone by the Browns next pick.

We'll see ...

 

I don’t see Ray Lewis.

Im Seeing Lavonte David. 
 

Cox would instantly become the best coverage backer we have and he looks like he wraps up better than most of our guys.  He plays like a safety.  

[tiamat63]

20 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

I'd like to see tape on Zaven from Tulsa.. Tulsa plays a lot of tight front with LB's nesting from A to C gap; coverage-wise it's 100% spot drop zone.. Super athletic, sure, but some NFL DC's have said they couldn't teach him over/under/etc concepts in an entire offseason.  He's never played a down of man pass defense.. I have concerns..

Tulsa plays a good deal of 3-3. So those "tight" fronts are interior occupying concepts. Bear, eagle, okie.  All have blended gap calls. Some one player, some two players.   Have your bigger bodies eat space between inside shade on the OT's all the way to the center.  Different fronts will have a different LB in the nest, that's standard for every defense. 

 

Who are these NFL DC's who made the assessment they couldn't teach Collins their calls in an off-season?  And if they exist on record, then a rookie LB not being up to speed in the course of one off-season is....pretty common.

[Unsympathetic]

That was Kollmann's direct quote near the end of his long video of OSU vs Indiana when he did some impromptu Q&A.  Guessing the DC's are his sources at different teams.. he worked at NFL network for 5 years.

Interesting to find out things that are actually an issue with a prospect vs items that just takes reps/time to become muscle memory.

[tiamat63]

@Tour2ma

For giggles I had Kellen Mond v UNC on my recommended list and figured I'd give him 30 minutes of my time.

I know he's your dark-horse, but I'm not quite seeing that "Dak-ness" with this one.     So far in this early game he's had some happy feet and some spotty late throws.

[calfoxwc]

Florida Gators kicker Evan McPherson has declared for the NFL Draft, he announced on Twitter. The third-year kicker from Fort Payne, Ala., is regarded as one of the most accurate in program history.

Question is, how high a late round would I pick him? I'm betting he won't be a UDFA....

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Florida Gators kicker Evan McPherson has declared for the NFL Draft, he announced on Twitter. The third-year kicker from Fort Payne, Ala., is regarded as one of the most accurate in program history.

Question is, how high a late round would I pick him? I'm betting he won't be a UDFA....

[Tour2ma]

19 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

@Tour2ma For giggles I had Kellen Mond v UNC on my recommended list and figured I'd give him 30 minutes of my time

I know he's your dark-horse, but I'm not quite seeing that "Dak-ness" with this one.     So far in this early game he's had some happy feet and some spotty late throws. 

He's not Dak in his Senior year, but I see the same trajectory Dak was on as a Junior.

Focus on Mond's delivery mechanics... throws from his earhole, so release is very quick. I'm hard pressed to recall a quicker one. Plus he has plenty of arm... good size and speed with fair agility.

As season goes on I think you will see a better pocket presence.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

He's not Dak in his Senior year, but I see the same trajectory Dak was on as a Junior.

Focus on Mond's delivery mechanics... throws from his earhole, so release is very quick. I'm hard pressed to recall a quicker one. Plus he has plenty of arm... good size and speed with fair agility.

As season goes on I think you will see a better pocket presence.

Dan Marino?

 

[LondonBrown]

So the Johnson signing probably means a safety is out in the first round?

Any corners going to be around that late, linebacker maybe? 

[calfoxwc]

https://www.si.com/college/florida/football/florida-gators-evan-mcpherson-nfl-draft-team-meetings

Former Gators Kicker Evan McPherson Drawing Plenty of NFL Interest

"McPherson has reportedly drawn plenty of interest from teams across the NFL as he prepares for the upcoming draft. According to Justin Melo of The Draft Network, McPherson has been in contact with the Cleveland Browns, Minnesota Vikings, Seattle Seahawks, New England Patriots, Miami Dolphins, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Atlanta Falcons, Carolina Panthers, Buffalo Bills, Cincinnati Bengals, Green Bay Packers, Indianapolis Colts, Denver Broncos, Dallas Cowboys, Arizona Cardinals, and San Francisco 49ers. "

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, LondonBrown said:

So the Johnson signing probably means a safety is out in the first round?

Any corners going to be around that late, linebacker maybe? 

LBs definitely... latest stuff I've been reading has as many as 6 going in round one. There's going to be one there come pick 26.

CBs? Only two or three are getting first round buzz. Two are top 20 with the third not a consensus round one guy.

[LondonBrown]

19 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

LBs definitely... latest stuff I've been reading has as many as 6 going in round one. There's going to be one there come pick 26.

CBs? Only two or three are getting first round buzz. Two are top 20 with the third not a consensus round one guy.

Cool, I have seen claims that this FO and coaching staff aren't too fussed about LB's and will get them later

[tiamat63]

10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

He's not Dak in his Senior year, but I see the same trajectory Dak was on as a Junior.

Focus on Mond's delivery mechanics... throws from his earhole, so release is very quick. I'm hard pressed to recall a quicker one. Plus he has plenty of arm... good size and speed with fair agility.

As season goes on I think you will see a better pocket presence.

So go back and youtube to refresh your memory if need be, but my comparison both mechanics and arm strength wise for Mond is Sam Bradford.    Both have that from the ear release and decent arm strength.     My issue with Mond so far in my limited viewing has been his timing and ball placement.  There was one in particular in this cutup that was kind of the synopsis of his short coming.

 

@ 2:52    2 man scissor vs man coverage. Or at least a bad pass off in cover 3.   But if this ball were delivered on time and ahead of the receiver, it's a touchdown.  Instead the late throw and behind placement gave the DB time to recover.  

 

[tiamat63]

@ 3:52 

JJ is man on the #2 in the empty set.  Peaks the downblock, turns his eyes immediately back into the interior,  says "fuck it" and attacks the clear crease over the RG. 

And you can hear that 'POP' too.              Another reason why I call JJ a younger version of Malcolm Jenkins.  He's a DB who isn't afraid to go get contact.     

 

[tiamat63]

@LondonBrown

 

JC Jackson.  Here is what I can tell you.

He ain't 6'1 like he's listed.  And he is for damn certain not 200lbs.  He's 5'10ish 190lbs. 

- Decent arm length

- good patience in his mirror

- good pad level and eye discipline 

- lacks elite twitch, hip fluidity and recovery speed.

He is the typical late round DB that NE has done a great job coaching up over the years.  Especially in man coverage outside and to the boundary.  He uses his patience and contact away from the line to squeeze and trail defenders in man.    He sort of has qualities of Kary Vincent (you've probably seen me gush over) minus the elite foot speed.  Though KV is probably a half inch shorter and a few pounds lighter.

 

 

[tiamat63]

 

@ :42  - I hate seeing my edge take a hard inside shoulder, then stack too upright and lean into the block.  PJ ends up sideways then on his ass.
         OT really never lost leverage here so I don't necessarily mark that as a dub for Jones.

@ :51  -  2nd and 8 and there really isn't much width on this split. Damn near playing a heads up look. A decent enough take off, but I still can't shake this feeling of his
         speed being handicapped by running technique and footwork.  His weight to burst transition just looks so damn unnatural at times.  Still, Jones gets the corner here but 
         but I just don't see the constant sink in his hips and flattening out to really bend these into sacks. Granted, King's mobility complicates matters.  PJ still registered the pressure                      and forced the scramble.

@ 1:00  -  Not attacking so far upfield, obvious Miami is a running team and you have to respect your assignment on the early downs.  Realizes Kings last scramble was to his side so                staying light footed and hoping King anticipates pressure, maybe walks into a sack/TFL as opposed to actually sensing pressure.   Side note - great play design and sell by both the QB AND the RB.   Back releases like he's the lead and b-lines it for the WILL backer like he's about to light a MF up.  Only to bend it back inside and upfield.    Good call, good design, great execution.   

@ 1:27 -  Pitt moving to more of their 33 looks on passing situations. Again gets Jones 1 on 1 with the OT because of the 6man pressure.  OUTSTANDING pick up on the B-gap safety by the running back by the way. He went and got contact before contact found him, then did a reasonably good job at fighting to hold his ground.  Anywho, back to Jonesy.   Another decent take off and a slight dip of the shoulder.   I would criticize his hips and surface area for the OT to strike, but with the depth of King on this drop, you have a much more "linear" path to the QB.  There really isn't a corner to bend around so this SHOULD have been easy pickings.    But the finish is where I give bad marks going back to his center of gravity.  He didn't have to sink and bend to win the corner, but you still need to arrive under control, maximize your reach and take this QB down.   Yes, King is mobile.  But this is a sack  that a premier first round talent makes and should make look pretty routine.  The OT combined with the depth of QB drop handed it to Jones on a plate and he just couldn't close.   Like in sales, A.B.C.  Always. Be. Closing.

@ 2:46 -  I'm convinced Jones didn't give a single fuck about sacking King or generating a pressure.  The few cuts before this were gap power runs and the LT didn't let up on Jones until the whistle was clearly done.  It was looking to get real chippy real damn quick between these two and I think this was that response.  Jones is playing more of a 7tech here and screams off the edge.  But watch what he does - no disengage, no head movement, no arms trying to get span and bring down the QB.  Nope, he is taking this LT for a walk in the fucking park.   QB is even climbing to escape and Jones is more worried about putting the LT straight back on his ass.      Our boy's got an attitude.   I like that (sort of)

@ 3:44 -  Instead of taking that extra half second to setup his move, Jones just launches himself, literally leaving his feet, into the guards inside shoulder.  Lucky he didn't get absolutely fucking planted here.

@ 4:05 -  Strong initial contact, gets his right hand free extending onto the OT with his left arm.  Eyes up and locates the RB while working upfield.  Forces the RB to take a negative depth of first cut, get wide and pray to recover back to the LOS.  Gives time for the calvary to arrive while Jones disengages and has the motor for pursuit which he cleans up.    That's good work playing a strong side end here.   Not only does he basically make this play
         and allows his teammates to arrive, he comes in to make sure it goes nowhere.

@ 4:55 -  IZ read on the backside 3 tech.  LG gets a chip then works to the weakside backer.  3 tech steps down to the RB on the mesh, King keeps and moves to the open B gap with some nice footwork.   Nothing really against Jones here,  he likely wouldn't have been able to stack and shed that well to shut down this read.  But if he would have? Cot damn...    Just wanted to highlight the first inside read I had seen so far.

@ 5:06 -  Frontside double power, looks like the center and right tackle. Patrick does a good job holding his ground against the lead, forcing the RB to flat cut outside for any shot at daylight. Cut that flat to the boundary (short side) doesn't always bode well for a ball carrier.   Safety flys up to the outside shoulder, doesn't clean up the tackle but that whole time Patrick is still fighting to disengage from the pull, which he does to bring down the RB.

@ 6:08 -  Zone read on the backside end (Jones) It's a bad read as Patrick stayed home, but even if it was a handoff this was going nowhere.   Patrick uses that good first step and arm length to basically corral King down.  If this was to the field MAYBE King has a shot? IDK... either way, good athletic play by PJ2.

 

 

This is just over the halfway point of the season and something is starting to become clear - I don't believe Jones is ready to be an NFL pass rusher yet.   He's ready to be an NFL player, yes.   He's ready to come in on early downs, running situations and to occasionally spell where he'll do his best work; which looks to be his film against the run from the edge.    He has the physical makeup and mentals... him damn near assaulting the LT in the play I time stamped proves that much.     But his technique is very raw, his counter move almost non-existent, his weight distribution spotty and his footwork/hand placement (usage)/sync all need a great deal of coaching.  A great deal of coaching and therefore likely a great deal of time.     As for consistency? You can forget that one too.  

I just don't think I'm watching a talent that I myself would take in the 1st round.   The physical gifts are there, but the times when he could have shown those "elite" moments were not.  Not as a pass rusher anyway.   So if the Browns are hell-bent on taking a young player in this draft to lineup across from Myles, expect year 1 production, then believe it will be the difference in beating KC or losing.... I hate to tell you that I just don't see it. 

I still have one more game to go, I wanted to watch the very backhalf of the season.  But middle day 2 feels right for Patrick so far.   I wouldn't even be shocked if he falls to the super early day 3.   But given his athletic profile, I wouldn't really expect that.

 

[Tour2ma]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

But middle day 2 feels right for Patrick so far. 

Seems to be where most of the projections put him.

[Unsympathetic]

Hmm.. Even Kollmann may occasionally get one wrong.. Comparing Jaelan Phillips to both Watts seems ambitious at best.

[tiamat63]

1 hour ago, Unsympathetic said:

Hmm.. Even Kollmann may occasionally get one wrong.. Comparing Jaelan Phillips to both Watts seems ambitious at best.

Player comparisons aren't such a bad thing. Helps maybe build a profile on what you're attempting to project. I just said that Kwity Paye brings Trent Cole to mind. 

Never watched Phillips, but I'll put him on the list.

[TexasAg1969]

51 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Player comparisons aren't such a bad thing. Helps maybe build a profile on what you're attempting to project. I just said that Kwity Paye brings Trent Cole to mind. 

Never watched Phillips, but I'll put him on the list.

How about putting Bama's DT Barmore on that list. I have a feeling we may be interested after letting Ogunjobi go. After watching what TBs front 4 did, I think we could do worse in building this D inside out.

[tiamat63]

17 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

How about putting Bama's DT Barmore on that list. I have a feeling we may be interested after letting Ogunjobi go. After watching what TBs front 4 did, I think we could do worse in building this D inside out.

Will do.