Pitt - Browns RBs

[Icecube]

What comes to mind?

Pitt 1990 - Foster, Worley, Hoge

Clev - 1990 - Metcalf, Mack.

 

Pitt 1993 - Foster, Hoge.

Cleve - Metcalf, Vardell, Hoard

 

Pitt 1995 - Pegram, JL Williams, Bam Morris.

Cle - Hoard, Lorenzo White

 

Pitt 1999 - Bettis, Zereoue

Clev - Terry Kirby, Abdul Jabbar

 

Pitt 2003 - Bettis, Zereoue

Cle - Willie Greene, James Jackson.

 

Pitt 2006 - Willie Parker, Davenport

Cle - Droughns, Terrell Smith

 

Pitt 2009 - Mendenall, Mewelde Moore

Cle - Jamal Lewis, Harison

 

Pitt 2012 - Dwyre, Redman

Clev - Trent Richardson

 

Pitt 2015 - Bell, Williams

Cle - Crowell, Duke Johnson

 

Pitt 2019 - Conner, Snell

Clev - Chubb, Hunt 

[The Gipper]

Not sure what your point is.   What are we supposed to do with this? 

You want REAL Browns/Steelers RB  comparison, then you want to go:

Jim Brown v.  John Henry Johnson

Leroy Kelly v. Franco Harris

Marion Motley vs.  Bill Dudley. 

Bobby Mitchell vs. ??

ALL of the above are HOF!!

And see this:

1.	Jim Brown, 1957-65	118	2,359	12,312	5.2	80t	106
2.	Leroy Kelly, 1964-73	136	1,727	7,274	4.2	70t	74
3.	Mike Pruitt, 1976-84	124	1,593	6,540	4.1	77t	47
4.	Greg Pruitt, 1973-81	118	1,158	5,496	4.7	78t	25
5.	Kevin Mack, 1985-93	99	1,291	5,123	4.0	65	46
6.	Earnest Byner, 1984-88,94-95	99	862	3,364	3.9	54	27
7.	Ernie Green, 1962-68	89	668	3,204	4.8	72	15
8.	Isaiah Crowell, 2014-17	64	737	3,118	4.2	85t	21
9.	Jamal Lewis, 2007-10	40	720	2,806	3.9	66t	13
10.	Nick Chubb, 2018-19	32	490	2,490	5.1	92t	16
11.	Bobby Mitchell, 1958-61	50	423	2,297	5.4	90t	16
12.	Cleo Miller, 1975-82	95	546	2,286	4.2	50	16
13.	Eric Metcalf, 1989-94	88	592	2,229	3.8	55	11
14.	Leroy Hoard, 1990-95	90	550	2,203	4.0	52	10
15.	Bo Scott, 1969-74	73	554	2,124	3.8	63t	18
16.	William Green, 2002-07	46	568	2,109	3.7	64t	9
17.	Reuben Droughns, 2005-06	30	529	1,990	3.8	75t	6
18.	Peyton Hillis, 2010-11	26	431	1,764	4.1	48	14
19.	Marion Motley, 1946-53	47	337	1,688	5.0	69	5
20.	Dub Jones, 1948-55	72	344	1,449	4.2	61	15
21.	Jerome Harrison, 2006-10	51	302	1,401	4.6	72t	6
22.	Fred Morrison, 1954-56	36	293	1,398	4.8	56	6
23.	Jamel White, 2000-03	59	349	1,324	3.8	54	9
24.	Duke Johnson, 2015-19	64	299	1,286	4.3	39	5
25.	Ken Brown, 1970-75

 

Compare to this:

Rushing

 

 

							Rushing
Rk	Player	From	To	G	Pos	AV	Att	Yds	TD	Lng	Y/A	Y/G	Fmb
1	Franco Harris	1972	1983	165	FB	133	2881	11950	91	75	4.1	72.4	90
2	Jerome Bettis	1996	2005	145	RB	78	2683	10571	78	50	3.9	72.9	28
3	Willie Parker	2004	2009	79	RB	47	1253	5378	24	80	4.3	68.1	17
4	Le'Veon Bell	2013	2017	62	RB	60	1229	5336	35	81	4.3	86.1	8
5	John Henry Johnson	1960	1965	67	FB	41	1006	4381	26	87	4.4	65.4	26
6	Frank Pollard	1980	1988	111	RB	37	953	3989	20	56	4.2	35.9	30
7	Dick Hoak	1961	1970	135	HB	44	1132	3965	25	77	3.5	29.4	31
8	Barry Foster	1990	1994	62	RB	34	915	3943	26	69	4.3	63.6	19
9	Rocky Bleier	1968	1980	140	RB	52	928	3865	23	70	4.2	27.6	32
10	Rashard Mendenhall	2008	2012	57	RB	28	864	3549	29	68	4.1	62.3	9
11	Walter Abercrombie	1982	1987	79	RB	35	842	3343	22	50	4.0	42.3	15
12	Fran Rogel	1950	1957	96	FB		900	3271	17	58	3.6	34.1	28
13	Merril Hoge	1987	1993	109	FB	41	819	3115	21	41	3.8	28.6	22
14	John Fuqua	1970	1976	87	RB	41	699	2942	21	85	4.2	33.8	18
15	Tom Tracy	1958	1963	60	HB	16	737	2717	15	64	3.7	45.3	24
16	Kordell Stewart	1995	2002	113	QB	65	496	2561	35	80	5.2	22.7	37
17	Terry Bradshaw	1970	1983	168	QB	137	444	2257	32	39	5.1	13.4	84
18	Preston Pearson	1970	1974	62	RB	27	573	2243	8	53	3.9	36.2	19
19	Lynn Chandnois	1950	1956	73	RH		593	1934	16	38	3.3	26.5	28
20	Earnest Jackson	1986	1988	37	RB	16	470	1921	9	39	4.1	51.9	8
21	Amos Zereoue	1999	2003	66	RB	19	434	1698	7	42	3.9	25.7	5
22	James Conner	2017	2019	37	RB	16	363	1581	16	30	4.4	42.7	5
23	Sidney Thornton	1977	1982	74	RB	15	356	1512	18	75	4.2	20.4	22
24	Bill Dudley	1942	1946	26	K		365	1504	10	66

 

[The Gipper]

Or, if you just want to compare the present/near future.

Any day of the week you would take Chubb/Hunt over   Conner/Snell.

But I think the Squibs may have drafted a pretty good back out of Maryland....we shall see.  

[The Gipper]

I think Chubb will jump up into  6th place on Browns all time list  after this, only his 3rd year.

[The Gipper]

Also, based on one stat from above,  I think that we can conclude that the Steelers have generally been a bigger "running team" than the Browns...by virtue of this:

Since 1950 when the Browns entered the NFL The Browns in that history have only  had  6 RBs  with  800 or more carries.  The Steelers have had  13 RBs with 800 or more....more than double.      That surprised me. 

Steelers have had  4 RBs make HOF, including Dudley who was pre 1950.  (Franco/Bettis/JHJ).  Though, for some reason, Dudley is listed as a Kicker above (maybe he kicked also), but he is not in HOF as a kicker, but as a runner.    The Browns have also had  4 including Motley who was part pre-1950, part post 1950.  Motley, Brown,  Kelley, Mitchell, who was half runner, half receiver. 

[gumby73]

A little shocking to me is Franco had 1 less fumble than his career TD's...than all i can add is.... f'k Merril Hoge.. id rather hear nothing when it comes to his football analysis...click-her! 

[The Gipper]

8 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

A little shocking to me is Franco had 1 less fumble than his career TD's...than all i can add is.... f'k Merril Hoge.. id rather hear nothing when it comes to his football analysis...click-her! 

That is interesting.   Note that other Steelers were just as bad:   John Henry Johnson had the same 1:1 ratio:   26 TDs, 26 fumbles. Frank Pollard  20TDs/30 fumbles.  Hoak 25/31.  Rocky Bleier   23/32.    Here are the same ratios for some Browns:

Jim Brown   106/57

Kelley  74/35

Motley  31/9

M. Pruitt  47/37

Mack  46/30

Chubb  16/3

but here is the one that hurts:   Greg Pruitt....25 TDs/59 fumbles.  Ouch!  He, of course was a different kind of runner/receiver, more daring I would say. Plus, he may have gotten a fair share of those in the return game. 

[Icecube]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Or, if you just want to compare the present/near future.

Any day of the week you would take Chubb/Hunt over   Conner/Snell.

But I think the Squibs may have drafted a pretty good back out of Maryland....we shall see.  

Their OL is becoming weak. And I'd also take Chubb/Hunt over Conner/Snell any day. McFarland is the wildcard. He gouged OSU. 

[Gorka]

14 hours ago, Icecube said:

What comes to mind?

First thing that came to mind was who had the better backfield, so I went with that.

These are only eye test opinions.  I'll let someone with a lot of time on their hands to look up stats.

Pitt 1990 - Foster, Worley, Hoge

Clev - 1990 - Metcalf, Mack.

US

Pitt 1993 - Foster, Hoge.

Cleve - Metcalf, Vardell, Hoard

A WASH

Pitt 1995 - Pegram, JL Williams, Bam Morris.

Cle - Hoard, Lorenzo White

A WASH

Pitt 1999 - Bettis, Zereoue

Clev - Terry Kirby, Abdul Jabbar

Them

Pitt 2003 - Bettis, Zereoue

Cle - Willie Greene, James Jackson.

Them

Pitt 2006 - Willie Parker, Davenport

Cle - Droughns, Terrell Smith

Them by a hair

Pitt 2009 - Mendenall, Mewelde Moore

Cle - Jamal Lewis, Harison

US

Pitt 2012 - Dwyre, Redman

Clev - Trent Richardson

 A WASH

Pitt 2015 - Bell, Williams

Cle - Crowell, Duke Johnson

THEM

Pitt 2019 - Conner, Snell

Clev - Chubb, Hunt 

US

 

[Icecube]

6 hours ago, Gorka said:

 

Mostly agree, but I think you may be underestimating Foster a little. Remember when he gouged the Browns for like 300 yards in a playoff game? He was a top 3 RB at the time. The only way Pitt comes even close to the Browns' RB talent this year is if that rookie from MD, McFarland, goes off like he did when he shredded OSU to pieces. 

[Gorka]

26 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Mostly agree, but I think you may be underestimating Foster a little. Remember when he gouged the Browns for like 300 yards in a playoff game? He was a top 3 RB at the time. The only way Pitt comes even close to the Browns' RB talent this year is if that rookie from MD, McFarland, goes off like he did when he shredded OSU to pieces. 

Yeah I remember Foster now being a stud RB.  I think he also retired early,  was in his prime if I'm not mistaken.

I think we still have the better backfield even if McFly does well.

[Flugel]

19 hours ago, The Gipper said:

That is interesting.   Note that other Steelers were just as bad:   John Henry Johnson had the same 1:1 ratio:   26 TDs, 26 fumbles. Frank Pollard  20TDs/30 fumbles.  Hoak 25/31.  Rocky Bleier   23/32.    Here are the same ratios for some Browns:

Jim Brown   106/57

Kelley  74/35

Motley  31/9

M. Pruitt  47/37

Mack  46/30

Chubb  16/3

but here is the one that hurts:   Greg Pruitt....25 TDs/59 fumbles.  Ouch!  He, of course was a different kind of runner/receiver, more daring I would say. Plus, he may have gotten a fair share of those in the return game. 

Good stuff Gips!    Greg Pruitt was still one of my faves to watch running the ball for us.  The only guy since him to average better than 4.7 yards per carry is Nick Chubb.  Like Pruitt, Chubb can score from anywhere on the field and get a lot of yards after contact.  Unlike Pruitt, Chubb doesn't fumble during yards after contact time.  Having said that, Pruitt was a better receiver out of the backfield.

I like our RB tradition.   IMO, this team is built to run the ball down the esophagus - which will open doors for the play-action pass game.  I think both of our new starting tackles are better run blockers than the last 2 we had; where Chubb still averaged over 5 yards per carry.   When he gets a breather, the opponent gets Kareem'd while they're still sucking gas.  Not a bad 1-2 punch...

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Flugel said:

Good stuff Gips!    Greg Pruitt was still one of my faves to watch running the ball for us.  The only guy since him to average better than 4.7 yards per carry is Nick Chubb.  Like Pruitt, Chubb can score from anywhere on the field and get a lot of yards after contact.  Unlike Pruitt, Chubb doesn't fumble during yards after contact time.  Having said that, Pruitt was a better receiver out of the backfield.

I like our RB tradition.   IMO, this team is built to run the ball down the esophagus - which will open doors for the play-action pass game.  I think both of our new starting tackles are better run blockers than the last 2 we had; where Chubb still averaged over 5 yards per carry.   When he gets a breather, the opponent gets Kareem'd while they're still sucking gas.  Not a bad 1-2 punch...

On RB tradition.    Browns are very good, but so are other teams.   Besides Browns and Steelers here are other teams that had at least 3 HOF RBs/HBs/FBs play for them at some point.    Note,  Bold means that the team was a "Primary" team that that player played for.  Unbold means that the player only had a cup of coffee for that team:

Cardinals:  Charlie  Trippi,  Ernie Nevers, Ollie Matson,   Edgerrin James, Emmit Smith, Jim Thorpe

Bears:  Bronco Nagurski,  Red Grange, George McAffee,  Gale Sayers

Broncos: Floyd Little, Terrell Davis,  Tony Dorsett

Lions:  Barry Sanders,  Bill Dudley, Doak Walker,  John Henry Johnson, Ollie Matson, Hugh McElhenny

Packers:  Jim Taylor, Paul Hornung, Tony Canadeo,  Johnny Blood McNally

Colts:  Edgerrin James, Eric Dickerson, Lenny Moore, Marshall Faulk

Rams:  Elroy Hirsch, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, Ollie Matson,  Jerome Bettis

Giants: Alphonse Leemans, Frank Gifford,  Hugh McElhenny,  Jim Thorpe, Larry Csonka  (Saquon Barkley could end up being this team's best)

49ers:  Hugh McElhenny, Joe Perry,  John Henry Johnson, OJ Simpson

Jets:   Curtis Martin,    LaDanian Tomlinson, John Riggins

Washington Team:  Bill Dudley, Bobby Mitchell, Cliff Battles,  John Riggins

(It seems that  Bill Dudley, Hugh McElhenny and John Henry Johnson played for like half the teams in the league)

Browns,  Steelers ,the team formerly known as the Redskins, Rams, Colts, Packers, Bears, are the only teams with 4 "Primary"  HOF RBs. 

 

[The Gipper]

And how about this question:      What RBs are  future HOF  candidates?   Ones that have retired, or are really along in their careers to be considered?

Right now I just see:    Adrian Peterson,   and Frank Gore.     LeSean McCoy?  I think just outside the bubble.  Marshawn Lynch?  Bugged out early...not even sure if he is going to be playing....also just outside the bubble. 

Leveon Bell?   He has a TON of work to do.   In 7 years he has only gained  6125 yards.  Sitting out didn't help. Yes, he is a good receiver, but, I don't know....I think to even be considered he has to be over 10,000 rush yards.  McCoy and Lynch at least have gotten there. 

Way too early on young guns like Barkley and Chubb and the Tits guy.....but someday, one day perhaps. 

Eddie George.  Also outside the bubble.  But at least over 10K.

[Icecube]

6 hours ago, The Gipper said:

On RB tradition.    Browns are very good, but so are other teams.   Besides Browns and Steelers here are other teams that had at least 3 HOF RBs/HBs/FBs play for them at some point.    Note,  Bold means that the team was a "Primary" team that that player played for.  Unbold means that the player only had a cup of coffee for that team:

Cardinals:  Charlie  Trippi,  Ernie Nevers, Ollie Matson,   Edgerrin James, Emmit Smith, Jim Thorpe

Bears:  Bronco Nagurski,  Red Grange, George McAffee,  Gale Sayers

Broncos: Floyd Little, Terrell Davis,  Tony Dorsett

Lions:  Barry Sanders,  Bill Dudley, Doak Walker,  John Henry Johnson, Ollie Matson, Hugh McElhenny

Packers:  Jim Taylor, Paul Hornung, Tony Canadeo,  Johnny Blood McNally

Colts:  Edgerrin James, Eric Dickerson, Lenny Moore, Marshall Faulk

Rams:  Elroy Hirsch, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, Ollie Matson,  Jerome Bettis

Giants: Alphonse Leemans, Frank Gifford,  Hugh McElhenny,  Jim Thorpe, Larry Csonka  (Saquon Barkley could end up being this team's best)

49ers:  Hugh McElhenny, Joe Perry,  John Henry Johnson, OJ Simpson

Jets:   Curtis Martin,    LaDanian Tomlinson, John Riggins

Washington Team:  Bill Dudley, Bobby Mitchell, Cliff Battles,  John Riggins

(It seems that  Bill Dudley, Hugh McElhenny and John Henry Johnson played for like half the teams in the league)

Browns,  Steelers ,the team formerly known as the Redskins, Rams, Colts, Packers, Bears, are the only teams with 4 "Primary"  HOF RBs. 

 

Man, hard to believe Freeman McNeil didn't make the list. No Tiki. 

[Flugel]

12 hours ago, The Gipper said:

On RB tradition.    Browns are very good, but so are other teams.   Besides Browns and Steelers here are other teams that had at least 3 HOF RBs/HBs/FBs play for them at some point.    Note,  Bold means that the team was a "Primary" team that that player played for.  Unbold means that the player only had a cup of coffee for that team:

Cardinals:  Charlie  Trippi,  Ernie Nevers, Ollie Matson,   Edgerrin James, Emmit Smith, Jim Thorpe

Bears:  Bronco Nagurski,  Red Grange, George McAffee,  Gale Sayers

Broncos: Floyd Little, Terrell Davis,  Tony Dorsett

Lions:  Barry Sanders,  Bill Dudley, Doak Walker,  John Henry Johnson, Ollie Matson, Hugh McElhenny

Packers:  Jim Taylor, Paul Hornung, Tony Canadeo,  Johnny Blood McNally

Colts:  Edgerrin James, Eric Dickerson, Lenny Moore, Marshall Faulk

Rams:  Elroy Hirsch, Eric Dickerson, Marshall Faulk, Ollie Matson,  Jerome Bettis

Giants: Alphonse Leemans, Frank Gifford,  Hugh McElhenny,  Jim Thorpe, Larry Csonka  (Saquon Barkley could end up being this team's best)

49ers:  Hugh McElhenny, Joe Perry,  John Henry Johnson, OJ Simpson

Jets:   Curtis Martin,    LaDanian Tomlinson, John Riggins

Washington Team:  Bill Dudley, Bobby Mitchell, Cliff Battles,  John Riggins

(It seems that  Bill Dudley, Hugh McElhenny and John Henry Johnson played for like half the teams in the league)

Browns,  Steelers ,the team formerly known as the Redskins, Rams, Colts, Packers, Bears, are the only teams with 4 "Primary"  HOF RBs. 

 

Great subject - nice job!    While I mostly only give a rat about Cleveland - I will always be a fan of the RUNNING GAME so here's a few piggybacks/honorable mentions:

The backfield for the undefeated 72 Dolphins team may not have had 3 HOF backs (only Csonka); but they were tough for teams to match up with.  Opponents that tried to congest the box, had to worry about HOF WR and speedster Paul Warfield over the top.  A lot of people forget, they didn't have their starting QB for something like 9 of regular season games and part of the post season.  They had an old man everyone thought was washed up (Earl Morral) when Shula brought him over from Baltimore to Miami.  

Rams had another very good RB (Lawrence McCutcheon) that made 5 consecutive Pro Bowls in 73, 74, 75, 76, and 77 back when they only played 14 regular season games.  In 73, he actually averaged 5.2 yards a carry.  4 of those years he had over 1000 yards and the other was over 900 yards (which would have been over 1000 if they played 16 games)

I'd probably include Freeman McNeil in comparison to other NY Jets RBs in that franchise history.  He averaged 4.5 yards per carry, made 3 Pro Bowls and gained 8074 yards in a 12 year career which isn't spectacular (but like Greg Pruitt - he was spectacular enough to wonder what would have been if he did stay healthy).  While his role got reduced his last 4 years - he averaged 4.6 yards per carry when he was 31 and 5.9 yards a carry when he was 32.  He had some durability issues that caused him to miss a lot of games throughout the career and water down his overall rushing stats.    

Other thought:  The HOF is a great achievement but I'm not a fan of some of their decisions/criteria.  For example, Jerome Bettis had 7 different seasons in Pitt where he didn't even average of 4 yards per carry on a team that usually put about 2 of their OL in the Pro Bowl and sometimes as many as 3.  His career ended at 3.9 yards per carry.  He had a long career and he played for Pittsburgh so the HOF accepted good instead of elite IMO.  If they're gonna tell us Clay Matthews isn't good enough for the HOF - then I'm going to say neither is Bettis.  ALOT of RBs - even a non drafted Willie Parker ran well in their philosophy and system.  People defend him with length of career, reliability, frequency of post season appearances.  Okay, didn't Clay do all of the same things?  During my lifetime as a fan (I'm 56 so let's start this question at about 1970) has Cleveland ever frequented the playoffs more than they did throughout the 80s when Clay started at several different LB positions in our 3-4 and 4-3?    HOF OG Joe DeLamielleure was asked at a Browns Backers Banquet - who was the biggest challenge he had.  Without hesitation he said "Clay Matthews is the toughest SOB I've ever faced. Trust me, I had to face him in practice all the time."  Then he brought up the "Jack of all Trades" where he said Clay usually upgraded the LB spot he moved into for an injured starter.  Sounds like he was saying Clay was the Master of all Trades pertaining to the LB position. IMO, that's criteria that should be counted not neglected.

What was the reason, they waited all the way until Gene Hickerson was senile in a wheel chair wearing diapers?   Then they went and let a punk like Terrell Owens in A LOT quicker.  Me-O was an absolute brat that never stopped putting "I before team."  

[The Gipper]

I think the 49ers were the only team to have 3 HOF RBs play for them at the same time. Johnson Perry McElhaney

[Dutch Oven]

14 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I think the 49ers were the only team to have 3 HOF RBs play for them at the same time. Johnson Perry McElhaney

And they had Y.A. Tittle at QB, and never even made it to a NFL Championship Game. 

The Rams and Lions were tough in the Western Conference in that era.