Jets Trade Jamal Adams

[MLD Woody]

 

 

In case anyone was interested in what his market value would be

 

[Unsympathetic]

Glad that wasn't us.. Yikes, that's a lot.  Good player but not two firsts and a third good.  McDougald was a UDFA so that's a weird throw-in.

Russell Wilson said he wanted them to add stars.. bet he would rather have a decent OL so they could beat the 49ers before he retires.  The only time they won the SB, they had the best OL in football.

[The Gipper]

47 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

 

 

In case anyone was interested in what his market value would be

 

Wow....sounds like a heavy price.   Don't know that he would really be worth all that. 

[tiamat63]

16 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

Glad that wasn't us.. Yikes, that's a lot.  Good player but not two firsts and a third good.  McDougald was a UDFA so that's a weird throw-in.

Russell Wilson said he wanted them to add stars.. bet he would rather have a decent OL so they could beat the 49ers before he retires.  The only time they won the SB, they had the best OL in football.

Yeaaaaaaah, naw.  That 2013 Hawks line wasn't very good either.  

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

 

 

In case anyone was interested in what his market value would be

 

Seattle blew it, unless this trade turns into at least one ring. 

[Icecube]

40 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Yeaaaaaaah, naw.  That 2013 Hawks line wasn't very good either.  

But their D was top shelf; does this trade make their D top shelf? 

[Unsympathetic]

44 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

That 2013 Hawks line wasn't very good either.

Looks like tia is right on that // Also, Outsiders take.  Outsiders has the 2013 seattle OL dead-last in passpro.

Hawks blog on the 2013 OL

The 2013 hawks OL is one of the reasons why we have the rookie wage scale.. Okung's 5th year [even on his rookie deal] was 11.25M

[Orion]

Those terms are hard to believe.  Two #1's?

[gumby73]

and all the jets had to do was promote Gregg Williams to head coach & JA might have stayed..They were good..

But once again... Adam Gase influences his GM to send Jarvis Landry & now Jamal Adams off to fail...  

Soon.. someone won't be getting paid in Sea-Land and it ain't just Clowney... but Jamal Adams will..

and Pete Carrol can't coach forever..Strong bold move Hawks..

[tiamat63]

12 minutes ago, Icecube said:

But their D was top shelf; does this trade make their D top shelf? 

Going to need a pass rush first. 

[Unsympathetic]

Hawks own blog analysis of their DL - TLDR: Hawks very bad last season, 2020 without Clowney means Adams will have zero passrush in front of him.

 

[tiamat63]

People forget the 2013 Hawks defense wasn't just the LOB.  They had an outstanding front 7 that year as well.  I'd put that group against some of the best of all time.

[Icecube]

50 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Going to need a pass rush first. 

I don't even think their secondary is "Legion of Boom" status with Adams. Like I said, if they don't win a ring out of this trade, Hawks take a bath. 

[MLD Woody]

Versatile DB's are a big deal in today's NFL. 

[Unsympathetic]

Interesting historical study -- Instead of "Defense wins championships" we really should reword that as "A historically good defense can, on occasion, overcome a mediocre offense to win a championship, while a historically good offense has even less of a chance to overcome a mediocre defense to win a championship."

Posted in 2 threads because this is important.. shouldn't be a huge shock that the entire team is important when winning a SB is the goal..

[Icecube]

21 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Interesting historical study -- Instead of "Defense wins championships" we really should reword that as "A historically good defense can, on occasion, overcome a mediocre offense to win a championship, while a historically good offense has even less of a chance to overcome a mediocre defense to win a championship."

Posted in 2 threads because this is important.. shouldn't be a huge shock that the entire team is important when winning a SB is the goal..

That's why I slightly leaned towards the 9ers in last year's SB (but was smart enough to not put $ on it): SF had the better D and a great rushing game. But KC had the best QB. Whoops. 

[Gunz41]

For those saying how big of an overpay this is, i.e. have to win a SB (Not even saying it is or isn't), context needs to be added.

It really just comes down to the valuing of draft picks over proven players. 

Without that context, saying 2 1sts is a lot. But when those are extremely likely to be late picks it adds some perspective. But to add even more, here are the draft picks of playoff teams who didn't win SB recently (some are from non playoff teams through trades).

2019: Darnell Savage, Andre Dillard, Tutus Howard, Josh Jacobs, Marquise Brown, Montez Sweat, Jonathan Abram, Jerry Tillery, LJ Collier, DeAndre Baker, Kaleb McGary, NKeal Harry

2018: Billy Price, Rahsaan Evans, Isaiah Wynn, DJ Moore, Hayden Hurst, Calvin Ridley, Rashard Penny, Terrell Edmunds, Taven Bryan, Mike Hughes, Sony Michel, Lamar Jackson

2017: Jarrad Davis, Charles Harris, Evan Engram, Gareon Conley, Jabrill Peppers, Tank McKinley, Tredavious White, Taco Charlton, David Njoku, TJ Watt, Reubens Foster, Ryan Ramczyk

2016: Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell, William Jackson, Artie Burns, Paxton Lynch, Kenny Clark, Josh Garnett, Robert Nkemdiche, Vernon Butler, Germain Ifedi

2015: Cedric Ogbuehi, Bud Dupree, Shane Ray, DJ Humphries, Shaq Thompson, Breshad Perriman, Byron Jones, Laken Tomlinson, Phillip Dorsett, Damarious Randall, Stephone Anthony, Malcolm Brown.

4 Pro Bowlers out of 60 players. 

But put it in perspective. Would you trade Peppers and Njoku for Adams? 

My point is that when you just evaluate it as 2 1st round picks without the perspective of when those would likely be or who you more than likely would get with those picks it isn't as simple as SB or total overpay. 

[MLD Woody]

2 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

 

But put it in perspective. Would you trade Peppers and Njoku for Adams? 

 

No!

 

 

 

But if we got Brandon McDougal back....hmm

 

 

 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

For those saying how big of an overpay this is, i.e. have to win a SB (Not even saying it is or isn't), context needs to be added.

It really just comes down to the valuing of draft picks over proven players. 

Without that context, saying 2 1sts is a lot. But when those are extremely likely to be late picks it adds some perspective. But to add even more, here are the draft picks of playoff teams who didn't win SB recently (some are from non playoff teams through trades).

2019: Darnell Savage, Andre Dillard, Tutus Howard, Josh Jacobs, Marquise Brown, Montez Sweat, Jonathan Abram, Jerry Tillery, LJ Collier, DeAndre Baker, Kaleb McGary, NKeal Harry

2018: Billy Price, Rahsaan Evans, Isaiah Wynn, DJ Moore, Hayden Hurst, Calvin Ridley, Rashard Penny, Terrell Edmunds, Taven Bryan, Mike Hughes, Sony Michel, Lamar Jackson

2017: Jarrad Davis, Charles Harris, Evan Engram, Gareon Conley, Jabrill Peppers, Tank McKinley, Tredavious White, Taco Charlton, David Njoku, TJ Watt, Reubens Foster, Ryan Ramczyk

2016: Will Fuller, Josh Doctson, Laquon Treadwell, William Jackson, Artie Burns, Paxton Lynch, Kenny Clark, Josh Garnett, Robert Nkemdiche, Vernon Butler, Germain Ifedi

2015: Cedric Ogbuehi, Bud Dupree, Shane Ray, DJ Humphries, Shaq Thompson, Breshad Perriman, Byron Jones, Laken Tomlinson, Phillip Dorsett, Damarious Randall, Stephone Anthony, Malcolm Brown.

4 Pro Bowlers out of 60 players. 

But put it in perspective. Would you trade Peppers and Njoku for Adams? 

My point is that when you just evaluate it as 2 1st round picks without the perspective of when those would likely be or who you more than likely would get with those picks it isn't as simple as SB or total overpay. 

Seems fair enough.  Who are the 4 Pro Bowlers on that list? 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

But put it in perspective. Would you trade Peppers and Njoku for Adams?

Perhaps, (haven't seen Peppers for a while).  But I wouldn't trade 2 first round picks.  (strange as that may sound)

[Gunz41]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Seems fair enough.  Who are the 4 Pro Bowlers on that list? 

Oops 5. Lamar, Watt, Jones, White and Clark

[Gunz41]

58 minutes ago, Orion said:

Perhaps, (haven't seen Peppers for a while).  But I wouldn't trade 2 first round picks.  (strange as that may sound)

No offense to you feeling that way, A LOT of people do. But to me that is overvaluing draft picks. Not like we are talking about top picks, but these lower 1sts are somewhat dependent on other teams as well.

But to me, you KNOW how Adams performs in the NFL, and is considered a Top 3 S, and it is less than 50% of 1st rounders Making an impact. This is my opinion that its crazy to value potential/dependent vs. Very High productivity at the NFL level.

Or look at it like this, right now would you rather have Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? 

 

[Unsympathetic]

The issue isn't as simple as overpay on one player or not.. The issue is that SEA is missing more than just one guy and needs picks to improve the talent level at multiple positions.  Adams is a good player for sure, but through ridiculous GMsmanship they have less than replacement-level at all but one spot [Duane Brown] on both the DL and OL right now. [Fun fact: Seattle's 10th highest paid player against the 2020 cap is a kicker. Stay classy, Seattle.]

 

The delta is NOT just adams vs mcdougald.  Looking at just one spot ignores the upgrades at the other positions that would/could be achieved with those picks.

At present they upgraded one spot BUT could have upgraded 3.  Even average OL and DL at this point would be actual improvements for Seattle.

[Orion]

8 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

No offense to you feeling that way, A LOT of people do. But to me that is overvaluing draft picks. Not like we are talking about top picks, but these lower 1sts are somewhat dependent on other teams as well.

But to me, you KNOW how Adams performs in the NFL, and is considered a Top 3 S, and it is less than 50% of 1st rounders Making an impact. This is my opinion that its crazy to value potential/dependent vs. Very High productivity at the NFL level.

Or look at it like this, right now would you rather have Baker Mayfield or Justin Fields? 

 

I hear ya.  You KNOW the guy is good.  But you also know that the guy doesn't want to be where he is.  Will he want to be with us...for long?  He's gonna demand big bucks.  With two #1 picks you get two guys who are cap friendly for 4 or 5 years.  If you're lousy at drafting, then sure, trade away all of your picks...which is what we should've done for years.

[Gunz41]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

I hear ya.  You KNOW the guy is good.  But you also know that the guy doesn't want to be where he is.  Will he want to be with us...for long?  He's gonna demand big bucks.  With two #1 picks you get two guys who are cap friendly for 4 or 5 years.  If you're lousy at drafting, then sure, trade away all of your picks...which is what we should've done for years.

I guess for me it just comes down to known vs potential. This isn't the first time one of these has come up and I have said something.

On paper those 2 1sts look like a lot. But you have to use them correctly, and even the best organizations hit less than half the time on 1sts. 

Whether he will want to be in SEA, That I can't answer. If he signs an extension at some time then yes a whole lot of money, but that is one position you don't have to worry about. And a teams objective when drafting is to get a player like him.

Or to look at it with the Browns. What would your thoughts be on trading Myles to say SF for 2 1sts? Those would be 2 late 1sts more than likely. 

I'm not even going into the science of drafting and how teams traditionally do better etc. Or the fact on how quickly an incoming player grade changes. Or how the expected salary cap is supposed to go up a lot, etc.

Now if your argument was that SEA COULD get Lamar Jackson and TJ Watt with that pick so it is an overpay, I can't argue with that. But they could also have gotten Paxton Lynch and Rueben Foster. And it looks as if the difference between a rookie contract vs. Eddie Jackson (highest paid safety) is between 8-10 million a year. I won't even double it with the 2 1sts since Adams will probably make that difference anyway.

So would you rather have Adams or an 8 mil FA (Perriman, Melvin Gordon, Suh, Linval Joseph, etc) and one of those draftees above. 

See its only mentioned when in a good light with a rookie contract. But when its the other way around it is still there in a negative way. 

I really am not saying that it was good or bad either way. I am saying that just looking at it in one way doesn't tell the whole story. 

[tiamat63]

9 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

The issue isn't as simple as overpay on one player or not.. The issue is that SEA is missing more than just one guy and needs picks to improve the talent level at multiple positions.  Adams is a good player for sure, but through ridiculous GMsmanship they have less than replacement-level at all but one spot [Duane Brown] on both the DL and OL right now. [Fun fact: Seattle's 10th highest paid player against the 2020 cap is a kicker. Stay classy, Seattle.]

 

The delta is NOT just adams vs mcdougald.  Looking at just one spot ignores the upgrades at the other positions that would/could be achieved with those picks.

At present they upgraded one spot BUT could have upgraded 3.  Even average OL and DL at this point would be actual improvements for Seattle.

Worth pointing out, that the primary corps of the LOB was a 1st round safety, a 5th round safety, a 5th found corner and a 6th round corner.

They have a recent history of taking DB's mid to late round and molding them into success.

[gumby73]

42 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

I really am not saying that it was good or bad either way. I am saying that just looking at it in one way doesn't tell the whole story. 

Gunz, your a sharp football fan.. Look at this draft history & tell us Carroll or John Schneider really care about losing two first round picks in the 25-30th range.. https://pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/draft.htm 👀 They will make hay, about the 4th they get back...

a) I see a 32 year old QB signed thru 2023.. b.) A 68 year old 100-59-1 head coach wanting to win now &  3) a new owner replacing Paul Allen....Saying "screw the picks" our window might be closing in the NFC & Adams surely fits their Defense...  

Carroll has a history & staff of coaching kids up & it don't matter where they come from... And were still waiting Browns... 

[Flugel]

I STILL don't like it when young players in this league get rewarded for acting like a brat screaming in the store until mommy buys them the toy they want.   If I could stop screaming in the stores when I was 22 years old - 1st round draft picks with gigantic signing bonuses can stop that type of nonsense too. What can I say?  I liked Miracle Bubbles... Let's not make it sound like Adams was sentenced to 10 more years in NY after completing the 1st 3 years of his 1st contract. 

It wasn't like we gave Eric Turner a dream team his rookie year.  He kept his mouth shut and played ball.  His patience was eventually rewarded when we put more of a defense in front of and beside him.  In fact, Bill Belichick assigned him to Pro Bowl TE Ben Coates in the playoffs; and he responded by shutting their top weapon out.  Consequently, Cleveland knocked NE out of the playoffs in the 1st round. My guess is Turner enjoyed and appreciated the growth of himself and his teammates to the extent he appreciated the team that invested in him.  Eventually, Turner got to return to his home state to play for the Raiders in CA.  But, not before he eye candied us with some killer good Safety play.  

[ballpeen]

I don't see how a safety could possible be worth that much.  Maybe a 1st and 3rd.  

 

I have liked Adams since his play at LSU but two 1st rounders and a 3rd would have greater impact on your team.

[Unsympathetic]

It's also important to note precisely what SEA just bought.  Where did Adams set up in 2019

He's a difference-maker at the LB depth.. he is absolutely not Earl Thomas, he's nothing more than a Chancellor without coverage deficits.  He is an in-the-box safety..

In sum, Adams is not tremendously better than the UDFA they sent to NYJ who everyone agrees was above average [arguably top-10] at the exact same position/defensive role.. and because the rest of the lineup will suffer without the first-round upgrades, I don't understand this.