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Icecube

What are the chances Greedy turns out?

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2 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Frank Minnifield was 5'9 180# and went undrafted in 1983 - a 12-round draft.  He signed with the USFL's Chicago Blitz and had to win a court case to be able to sign with the Browns in 1984.  4 straight Pro Bowls and the NFL's all-decade 1980's team.

 

A much, much different game now.    

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2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well...the deal with  Motley and Willis was that they were black.....and the NFL, being under the control of people like  George Preston Marshall, an avowed segregationist, would not draft any black players.  

Also...don't forget Ernest Byner, a 10th round draft pick and a man with great heart for the game. 

Plus Lou Groza I believe was on Okinawa or Iwo Jima when he got a contract offer from Paul Brown, trying to not get his ass shot off. 

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

A much, much different game now.    

It wasn't that different, like from the 1940's or something. I think Minn - and Daryl Greene - would still be excellent in today's game. They might even be better, since hitting is all but eliminated and their games were all about quickness and quick twitch reaction and coordination. 

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3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

A much, much different game now.    

Oh yeah kids are on the radar in high school and going to camps before going to the NFL minor leagues..... college.  The NFL draft is now a year long activity.

And the stakes are enormous no professional players have off-season jobs anymore.

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1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

Oh yeah kids are on the radar in high school and going to camps before going to the NFL minor leagues..... college.  The NFL draft is now a year long activity.

And the stakes are enormous no professional players have off-season jobs anymore.

Yep, times have changed. An old favorite of mine, Browns' safety Don Fleming, was electrocuted in the early 1960's working his off season construction job.

Mike

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Quote

 ILB/MLB Mike Johnson was only 6'1" and 220 lbs when he played like a bad asss worthy of 2 Pro Bowl honors; and I also liked former Louisville LB Eddie Johnson that hit like a freight train. All these guys were very easy to appreciate as well as the many others I didn't even mention.

Great post Flug! and i got the best at the end...

If we have any Newbie Brownies fans? If ya never saw Johnson & Johnson play? find them on youtube 💪 2 grown ass men and Eddie was a 7th round pick & Mike earned his way from the USFL....2 no-neck's with Heart & passion for the game..        

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1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

 

Great post Flug! and i got the best at the end...

If we have any Newbie Brownies fans? If ya never saw Johnson & Johnson play? find them on youtube 💪 2 grown ass men and Eddie was a 7th round pick & Mike earned his way from the USFL....2 no-neck's with Heart & passion for the game..        

Browns problem is that the really, really have not had quality  Linebacker play since those two guys. 

We have had just 2 LBs make the Pro Bowl since 1999:   Joe Schobert in 2018, and Jamir Miller in 2002.     And we lost both of them almost immediately:   Schobert gone in Free agency;  Jamir Miller lost to injury the next year. 

Prior to 1999 back to 1960 here is the list of Browns Pro Bowl LBs:

1995  Pepper Johnson

1990 Mike Johnson

1989 Clay Matthews

1988 Clay

1987  Chip Banks

1986  Clay   and Chip

1984  Chip

1983  Chip

1971  Jim Houston

1970  Houston  

1966 Houston

1965 Houston

1959 to 1963  Jim Ray Smith

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11 hours ago, Canton Mike said:

Yep, times have changed. An old favorite of mine, Browns' safety Don Fleming, was electrocuted in the early 1960's working his off season construction job.

Mike

Yep.  They all had jobs.  Dante Lavelli had a furniture store, maybe in Rocky River or Lakewood.  I think Rocky River.

 

They were all selling cars or beer, or driving cabs.

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16 hours ago, Icecube said:

It wasn't that different, like from the 1940's or something. I think Minn - and Daryl Greene - would still be excellent in today's game. They might even be better, since hitting is all but eliminated and their games were all about quickness and quick twitch reaction and coordination. 

I liked Minnifield a lot!  That said, he got away with a lot of touchy-feeley downfield until anytime we played the Denver Broncos.  Today's game feels like there's a lot more BIG WRs that can all jet.  Not there weren't a few big WRs like Harold Carmichael and Dave Logan back in the day.  Big speedster Calvin Johnson wasn't drafted until AFTER Minnifield retired.  And now it feels like there's a lot of WRs over 6'3" today.

One of my favorite Corners at Ohio State was the 5'9" Antoine Winfield (mostly because of what a great open field tackler he was on top of being a very talented in zone or coverage).   I don't know how old some of you guys are; but 1 guy he could NOT matchup with BECAUSE of the size was Michigan State's Plexico Burress.  Ohio State blew a huge first half lead (28-6) because they couldn't find a way to help Winfield in the matchup. 5'9" vrs 6'6" despite the shorter guy being faster and more agile.  Now you add the wing span/catch radius to Burress' height advantage; and it didn't even matter if Winfield was a 2 time All American talent.  If memory serves me right, Burress was never really a speedster even before he shot himself in the leg.  Having said that, he still beat NE for a game winning TD reception in the SB after the incident unless my time machine had too much beer in it. Now imagine being a 5'9" corner when a 6'4" Randy Moss showed up to the NFL with blazing speed, gigantic catch radius and an ideal vertical leap.  And guess where Minnesota used to like to line Randy up when Cris Carter lined up as a WR on 1 side and the 6'3" Jake Reed on the other?  In the slot, where teams often put their smaller corners at the time.  There was nothing fair about that, which was why Minnesota exploited the Hell out of it....

Today, you have guys that range anywhere from 6'3"-6'6" like AJ Green, Mike Evans, D.K. Metcalf, Larry Fitzgerald, Julio Jones, Allen Robinson II, Michael Thomas, Alshon Jeffery, Courtland Sutton, Tyrell Williams,  Kenny Gollady, DJ Chark Jr, Chris Conley, Devin Funchess, DeVante Parker, Robby Anderson - just to name a hand full...

 

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10 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Browns problem is that the really, really have not had quality  Linebacker play since those two guys. 

We have had just 2 LBs make the Pro Bowl since 1999:   Joe Schobert in 2018, and Jamir Miller in 2002.     And we lost both of them almost immediately:   Schobert gone in Free agency;  Jamir Miller lost to injury the next year. 

Prior to 1999 back to 1960 here is the list of Browns Pro Bowl LBs:

1995  Pepper Johnson

1990 Mike Johnson

1989 Clay Matthews

1988 Clay

1987  Chip Banks

1986  Clay   and Chip

1984  Chip

1983  Chip

1971  Jim Houston

1970  Houston  

1966 Houston

1965 Houston

1959 to 1963  Jim Ray Smith

Thanks for the list Gips. 1 update to it.  Mike Johnson made the Pro Bowl in 89 and 90.  He was also an All Pro in 89.

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1 hour ago, Flugel said:

Thanks for the list Gips. 1 update to it.  Mike Johnson made the Pro Bowl in 89 and 90.  He was also an All Pro in 89.

I must have missed that one....or my source did.   I just checked Wikipedia. 

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44 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I must have missed that one....or my source did.   I just checked Wikipedia. 

This is a cut and paste right out of Wikipedia

Mike Johnson
No. 59
Position: Linebacker
Personal information
Born: November 26, 1962 (age 57)
Southport, North Carolina
Career information
High school: DeMatha Catholic
(Hyattsville, Maryland)
College: Virginia Tech
Career history
Career highlights and awards
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On 7/27/2020 at 9:31 AM, Flugel said:

Today, you have guys that range anywhere from 6'3"-6'6" like AJ Green, Mike Evans, D.K. Metcalf, Larry Fitzgerald, Julio Jones, Allen Robinson II, Michael Thomas, Alshon Jeffery, Courtland Sutton, Tyrell Williams,  Kenny Gollady, DJ Chark Jr, Chris Conley, Devin Funchess, DeVante Parker, Robby Anderson - just to name a hand full...

 

That being said, the best WR in recent years was 5-10 Antonio Brown (before he went insane). He smoked all those fools. 

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On 7/29/2020 at 4:33 PM, Icecube said:

That being said, the best WR in recent years was 5-10 Antonio Brown (before he went insane).

1 exception to the rule doesn't mean teams are wrong for wanting corners bigger than 5'9" tall today.  Will there be an exception to the rule?  Isn't there always?   However, secondaries have to defend a lot of size with speed and catch radius on the perimeter today.  For example, Pittsburgh just drafted a big, fast WR out of Notre Dame (Chase Claypool) built like a TE at 6'4" for the reasons I spoke of.  I say that to say this, Pittsburgh drafted Claypool in the 2nd round while they didn't draft Antonio Brown until round 6.   

 

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4 hours ago, Flugel said:

1 exception to the rule doesn't mean teams are wrong for wanting corners bigger than 5'9" tall today.  Will there be an exception to the rule?  Isn't there always?   However, secondaries have to defend a lot of size with speed and catch radius on the perimeter today.  For example, Pittsburgh just drafted a big, fast WR out of Notre Dame (Chase Claypool) built like a TE at 6'4" for the reasons I spoke of.  I say that to say this, Pittsburgh drafted Claypool in the 2nd round while they didn't draft Antonio Brown until round 6.   

 

Claypool is not only 6-4, 240, but he runs a 4.42 forty. That's a scary combination. Think a bigger, faster Shannon Sharpe. 

My point with AB is that you STILL don't need to be tall to be really good. 

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3 hours ago, Icecube said:

Claypool is not only 6-4, 240, but he runs a 4.42 forty. That's a scary combination. Think a bigger, faster Shannon Sharpe. 

My point with AB is that you STILL don't need to be tall to be really good. 

Isn't that about the same as Peeps?  (looking at this...not quite....but not that far off.  Claypool seems more Tight End. 

Donovan Peoples-Jones NFL Combine Stats

Wide Receiver | Michigan | Big Ten Conference | Division I-FBS

football-player3.gif

Player Info

First Name: Donovan
Last Name: Peoples-Jones
Nickname:  
Position: Wide Receiver
College: Michigan
Draft Class: 2020
Draft Age: N/A

Measurables

Height: 74 inches
Weight: 208 pounds
BMI: 27.35
Arm Length: 33.50 inches
Hand Size: 10.13 inches
Wingspan: 79.250 inches
Birthdate: (N/A)

NFL Combine Scores

40 Yard Dash: 4.48 seconds
40 Yard (MPH): 18.26 (MPH)
20 Yard Split: 2.63 seconds
10 Yard Split: 1.59 seconds
Bench Press: (N/A) reps (225 lb)
Wonderlic: (N/A) (0-50)
QB Ball Velocity: (N/A) (MPH)
Vertical Leap: 44.5 inches
Broad Jump: (N/A) inches
20 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds
Three Cone: (N/A) seconds
Shuttle Split: (N/A) seconds
60 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds
Four Square: (N/A) seconds

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Chase Claypool NFL Combine Stats

Wide Receiver | Notre Dame | Atlantic Coast Conference | Division I-FBS

football-player3.gif

Player Info

First Name: Chase
Last Name: Claypool
Nickname:  
Position: Wide Receiver
College: Notre Dame
Draft Class: 2020
Draft Age: N/A

Measurables

Height: 76 inches
Weight: 229 pounds
BMI: 28.55
Arm Length: 32.50 inches
Hand Size: 9.88 inches
Wingspan: 80.000 inches
Birthdate: (N/A)

NFL Combine Scores

40 Yard Dash: 4.42 seconds
40 Yard (MPH): 18.51 (MPH)
20 Yard Split: 2.57 seconds
10 Yard Split: 1.56 seconds
Bench Press: 19 reps (225 lb)
Wonderlic: (N/A) (0-50)
QB Ball Velocity: (N/A) (MPH)
Vertical Leap: 40.5 inches
Broad Jump: 126 inches
20 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds
Three Cone: (N/A) seconds
Shuttle Split: (N/A) seconds
60 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds
Four Square: (N/A) seconds

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Claypool is taller.......but speed is about the same.......also...his arms are shorter than Peeps,  his hands are smaller,   he can't jump as high...4 inches difference.....does that make up for the two inches that Claypool is taller?   Claypool 21 pounds heavier per this. 

The .06 difference in speed is neglible.  (unless you are running the Olympics).  Wingspan the same really.  

But, then Claypool was drafted  #49,   and Sunshine Superman taken #187. ....138 spots behind . 

Maybe a better comparison would be between  Claypool and Njoku? 

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Perhaps the thing to do here concerning Greedy Williams is to see who he likely would be matching up against mostly as the projected  #2 CB on this team.  #2 receivers for Browns opponents

Steelers:   James Washington

Ravens: Myles Boykin

Bengals:  Tee Higgins

Washington Football Team:  Terry McLaurin or Kelvin Harmon

Cowboys: Michael Gallup

Colts: Michael Pittman Jr

Raiders:  Henry Suggs or Tyrell Williams

Texans:  Will Fuller

Eagles:  DeSean Jackson

Jags: DJ Chark

Titans:  AJ Brown or Adam Humpries.

So....where would Greedy excel and where do you think he would be overmatched?

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On 7/31/2020 at 12:14 PM, Icecube said:

Claypool is not only 6-4, 240, but he runs a 4.42 forty. That's a scary combination. Think a bigger, faster Shannon Sharpe. 

My point with AB is that you STILL don't need to be tall to be really good. 

I told you he was fast.  You're getting what I want you to see Ice.  Seattle's Metcalf has the same frame - same quicks which makes asking a 5'9" corner (since this discussion centered around Minnifield (from a hands on bump and run scheme).  I put up a volume of big WRs that can run. Not only that, one of the last times Gronk was healthy enough to suit up against us - they put him out wide so we'd put a corner on him (hoping to see an 8 year old trying to cover his daddy).  Or, how about when Minnesota put a 6'4" Randy Moss in the slot as a rookie where he faced a lot of shorter corners he could outrun and outjump?  Check out the stats that compiled to remind us this was no longer our fathers' NFL...

One of my first replies in this thread brought up a 2 time All American talent Antoine Winfield in a match-up vrs Michigan State's Plexico Burress. OSU rathoused MSU in the first half of that game. Then, MSU exploited the size differential of Plexico Burress 6'6" vrs 5'9" Winfield (regardless of his elite skillset). Aside from the height difference, now you factor in the huge catch radius advantage Burress enjoyed to understand Nick Saban's path to erasing the huge deficit and ruining any shot the Buckeyes had at a National Championship that year.  The Buckeyes never really adjusted to this; because it was actually an adjustment Saban implemented that shifted the momentum and the entire complexion of the game. This was a lot like asking a point guard to stop Shaq from scoring.  Not gonna happen regardless of how talented the point guard is/was.

To your point, that didn't stop Winfield from going on to enjoy a successful NFL career. IMO, what made Winfield special was he was one of the best open field tacklers on the planet aside from his ability to cover.  When I watched him play, my football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia...

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16 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Claypool is taller.......but speed is about the same.......also...his arms are shorter than Peeps,  his hands are smaller,   he can't jump as high...4 inches difference.....does that make up for the two inches that Claypool is taller?   Claypool 21 pounds heavier per this. 

The .06 difference in speed is neglible.  (unless you are running the Olympics).  Wingspan the same really.  

But, then Claypool was drafted  #49,   and Sunshine Superman taken #187. ....138 spots behind . 

Maybe a better comparison would be between  Claypool and Njoku? 

As much as it pains me to say this - Pittsburgh's tradition of finding successful WRs in the draft dating back to Swann and Stallworth up through today is as good as it gets. 

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59 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Seattle's Metcalf has the same frame - 

 

I put up a volume of big WRs that can run. Not only that, one of the last times Gronk was healthy enough to suit up against us - they put him out wide so we'd put a corner on him (hoping to see an 8 year old trying to cover his daddy).  DOzf.gif      

 to remind us this was no longer our fathers' NFL...

and one game in New England... TJ Ward was a 5'10", built like a brick Safety, that made Belicheck his one day bitch for doing the same with Gronk.. Whoops-zie! 

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5 hours ago, Flugel said:

As much as it pains me to say this - Pittsburgh's tradition of finding successful WRs in the draft dating back to Swann and Stallworth up through today is as good as it gets. 

Well, maybe.  Though I would not say that the Brown's by any means take a back seat there, at least historically.   The Browns duo of  Warfield and Collins  IMO...is better than Stallworth and Swann.   (Its just that the Steelers did win those 4 titles with them).  But look at the stats....Browns duo wins that.  

And to be honest, I feel that  Josh Gordon was more innately talented than  Antonio Brown....its just that A.Brown was able to go longer in his career than Gordon before they both went full Retard on us. 

And right now....in my opinion our receiving corps is vastly superior to the Steelers.   

And, of course, if you want to go way back, the Browns had a HOF duo in Lavelli and Speedie.  Steelers never had anything of the sort.  

In the 80s the Browns clearly had the better WR corps. 

Now, between say  1990 and 2010....I would not  pretend that the Browns had better. 

 

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7 hours ago, Flugel said:

I told you he was fast.  You're getting what I want you to see Ice.  Seattle's Metcalf has the same frame - same quicks which makes asking a 5'9" corner (since this discussion centered around Minnifield (from a hands on bump and run scheme).  I put up a volume of big WRs that can run. Not only that, one of the last times Gronk was healthy enough to suit up against us - they put him out wide so we'd put a corner on him (hoping to see an 8 year old trying to cover his daddy).  Or, how about when Minnesota put a 6'4" Randy Moss in the slot as a rookie where he faced a lot of shorter corners he could outrun and outjump?  Check out the stats that compiled to remind us this was no longer our fathers' NFL...

One of my first replies in this thread brought up a 2 time All American talent Antoine Winfield in a match-up vrs Michigan State's Plexico Burress. OSU rathoused MSU in the first half of that game. Then, MSU exploited the size differential of Plexico Burress 6'6" vrs 5'9" Winfield (regardless of his elite skillset). Aside from the height difference, now you factor in the huge catch radius advantage Burress enjoyed to understand Nick Saban's path to erasing the huge deficit and ruining any shot the Buckeyes had at a National Championship that year.  The Buckeyes never really adjusted to this; because it was actually an adjustment Saban implemented that shifted the momentum and the entire complexion of the game. This was a lot like asking a point guard to stop Shaq from scoring.  Not gonna happen.... 

To your point, that didn't stop Winfield from going on to enjoy a successful NFL career. IMO, what made Winfield special was he was one of the best open field tacklers on the planet aside from his ability to cover.  When I watched him play, my football wood factor went from balsa to sequoia...

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said - yes, a tall WR is a nice luxury. It is ONE of the factors. 

And I'd still take  Minni or Darrell Green on my team any day, right now. The were like fly paper. 

 

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19 hours ago, Icecube said:

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said - yes, a tall WR is a nice luxury. It is ONE of the factors. 

And I'd still take  Minni or Darrell Green on my team any day, right now. The were like fly paper. 

 

I know.  And I'm glad you appreciate Minnifield's talent enough for the confidence you have in him as an All Era kind of guy. You're probably right that there would be a spot for him somewhere in a secondary today.  At the same position with the same success on the perimeter?  I just think he'd find far tougher sledding against the higher volume of taller/heavier WRs outside of the bump and run scheme he previously thrived in (without a Hanford Dixon frequently responsible for covering the opponent's #1 WR).  Aside from how many decades ago he played, that's a lot of changes.  None of this means I didn't like what he did for us 30-35 years ago without an elite pass rush. And I think that's what Tia was referring o at the top of page 2 when he didn't think anyone paying attention to NFL trends/era changes required further explanation. My guess is Minni's size would have him cover the slot; but it's not that easy to press guys lining up off the line of scrimmage - especially the speedsters with ideal change of direction.  Or, he could be what the next generation of Antoine Winfield will be at 5'9" tall - a Safety first with certain packages assigning him to a 3rd down corner role (slot assignment or zone).  Whatever...

Darrell Green was the NFL's fastest man with great agility/hips; so he'd still be able to play in this era somewhere in the secondary. 

FWIW, rumor had it that Hanford Dixon was frequently but unofficially clocked in the 4.2s down at So Miss before we drafted him 22nd overall in the 1st round.

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3 hours ago, Flugel said:

I know.  And I'm glad you appreciate Minnifield's talent enough for the confidence you have in him as an All Era kind of guy. You're probably right that there would be a spot for him somewhere in a secondary today.  At the same position with the same success on the perimeter?  I just think he'd find far tougher sledding against the higher volume of taller/heavier WRs outside of the bump and run scheme he previously thrived in (without a Hanford Dixon frequently responsible for covering the opponent's #1 WR).  Aside from how many decades ago he played, that's a lot of changes.  None of this means I didn't like what he did for us 30-35 years ago without an elite pass rush. And I think that's what Tia was referring o at the top of page 2 when he didn't think anyone paying attention to NFL trends/era changes required further explanation. My guess is Minni's size would have him cover the slot; but it's not that easy to press guys lining up off the line of scrimmage - especially the speedsters with ideal change of direction.  Or, he could be what the next generation of Antoine Winfield will be at 5'9" tall - a Safety first with certain packages assigning him to a 3rd down corner role (slot assignment or zone).  Whatever...

Darrell Green was the NFL's fastest man with great agility/hips; so he'd still be able to play in this era somewhere in the secondary. 

FWIW, rumor had it that Hanford Dixon was frequently but unofficially clocked in the 4.2s down at So Miss before we drafted him 22nd overall in the 1st round.

4.2's is sick speed. That's Deion level speed there. I tried to find Minni highlights and nothing comes up! All they have is Minni AND Dixon vids, I know it was a long time ago, but geez man. I thought you could find anything on youtube! 

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39 minutes ago, Icecube said:

4.2's is sick speed. That's Deion level speed there. I tried to find Minni highlights and nothing comes up! All they have is Minni AND Dixon vids, I know it was a long time ago, but geez man. I thought you could find anything on youtube! 

I am not sure they were testing 40 times back in the 80s.  Were they? 

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52 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I am not sure they were testing 40 times back in the 80s.  Were they? 

That's probably why he said "It was reported in college he ran 4.2s" instead of actually stating it as fact. 

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2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I am not sure they were testing 40 times back in the 80s.  Were they? 

Considering Paul Brown allegedly came up with it, I would guess so. Probably wasn't well-known info, though. 

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1 hour ago, Icecube said:

That's probably why he said "It was reported in college he ran 4.2s" instead of actually stating it as fact. 

Thanks Ice!  Yeah, I said "FWIW, rumor had it that Hanford Dixon was frequently but unofficially clocked in the 4.2s down at So Miss before we drafted him 22nd overall in the 1st round."  The NFL combines didn't start up until 1982; and they moved to Indy in 1987.  I don't know what they did for official times back then beyond NFL teams doing the "we shall see for ourselves with the stop watch."   My guess?  If he ran in the 4.2s for anybody - he would have been drafted before we got to him at #22 overall. 

 

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