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Icecube

What are the chances Greedy turns out?

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It would be outstanding for the Browns if Ward takes the next step and Greedy turned out to be a legit NFL top flight CB himself. They signed Joseph as S and the DL appears solid. If the CBs turned out to be as good as hoped for, LB is the only real weak spot on the team (assuming Baker is legit). 

 

But do you think Greedy will develop into a legit CB? A lot is riding on it. 

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I never screamed louder at my TV set while watching a Jim O'Neil's browns defense.. no angles nor wrap tackling techs..we were the worst tackling team by miles..

till...Along came Gregg Williams.... Was the best tackling improvement I'd ever seen👀

Along comes Steve Wilks....and were back to no heads around with ball in air & soft over pursuit arm tackling was back... 

if Joe Woods has proven one thing? He took Talib/Harris & or R.Sherman... and a bunch of no name young DB's, to a top 5 unit in passing against/game...9'ers were ranked #1 last season while Robert Saleh took most the credit...but Joe Woods was the 9'ers secondary coach...

Woods has proven everywhere he can coach...Does Ward & Greedy & others want to accept the NFL coaching is a whole different thing?.. and maybe Ward did listen to Gregg Williams about "getting trucked in this league" 🥊   

as for Greedy? he didn't seem to play scared when it came to breaking down & tackling...but with that frame? target taking the wheels out..  

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Greedy is like Ward, can’t stay healthy. Greedy had an “ok” rookie season but nothing special. Injuries aside I think he will be decent. They still got Money Mitchell as the 3rd option and I think the dude is better than Greedy

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The book on Greedy is he is good in man coverage.  We didn't play much of that last year.  I think he will be fine.

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19 hours ago, TypicalBrowns50 said:

Greedy is like Ward, can’t stay healthy.

I agree. 

I wasn't too impressed with him last year.  But we probably have to throw out last year because everybody believed the hype and didn't work/prepare like they should have.

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Greedy stunk as a rookie IMHO. Let's hope he steps it up with his buddy Delpit on the team.

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20 hours ago, TypicalBrowns50 said:

Greedy is like Ward, can’t stay healthy. Greedy had an “ok” rookie season but nothing special. Injuries aside I think he will be decent. They still got Money Mitchell as the 3rd option and I think the dude is better than Greedy

"Stay healthy" the thing that separates super stars from the "good but" guys in tackle football.

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I thought teams went at him last year.  He held his own sometimes and got beat others. 

I think we can rule out that He’s no Justin Gilbert.  I don’t think We can determine whether or not he has some Pro Bowl years ahead of himself.

there were games that I thought he came up and filled and tackled better than he played in coverage - which was supposed to be the opposite. 

Anyone have his PFF number last year?

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2 hours ago, SdBacker80 said:

I thought teams went at him last year.  He held his own sometimes and got beat others. 

I think we can rule out that He’s no Justin Gilbert.  I don’t think We can determine whether or not he has some Pro Bowl years ahead of himself.

 

How was Justin Gilbert such a huge bust? He was terrible. 

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9 hours ago, Icecube said:

How was Justin Gilbert such a huge bust? He was terrible. 

Are you asking How...or Why.  The How...you answered....he was terrible.  The why is more of a mystery because he seemed to have the physical talent, but he completely had no heart or head for the game is my only guess. 

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Just now, The Gipper said:

Are you asking How...or Why.  The How...you answered....he was terrible.  The why is more of a mystery because he seemed to have the physical talent, but he completely had no heart or head for the game is my only guess. 

I remember Brandon Weeden saying something along the lines of "Well, if the Browns had bothered to ask me about him, they probably wouldn't have drafted him..."

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4 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I remember Brandon Weeden saying something along the lines of "Well, if the Browns had bothered to ask me about him, they probably wouldn't have drafted him..."

Of course, he could have been talking about himself. :lol:

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5 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I remember Brandon Weeden saying something along the lines of "Well, if the Browns had bothered to ask me about him, they probably wouldn't have drafted him..."

Jokes on the Weedster... had the Browns bothered to ask me about him, they wouldn't have drafted him either.

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1 minute ago, tiamat63 said:

Jokes on the Weedster... had the Browns bothered to ask me about him, they wouldn't have drafted him either.

There could have been a book or miniseries on the BROWNS bust draft picks.

Hopefully that is changing and for good.

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On 7/23/2020 at 7:22 PM, gumby73 said:

I never screamed louder at my TV set while watching a Jim O'Neil's browns defense.. no angles nor wrap tackling techs..we were the worst tackling team by miles..

till...Along came Gregg Williams.... Was the best tackling improvement I'd ever seen👀

Along comes Steve Wilks....and were back to no heads around with ball in air & soft over pursuit arm tackling was back... 

if Joe Woods has proven one thing? He took Talib/Harris & or R.Sherman... and a bunch of no name young DB's, to a top 5 unit in passing against/game...9'ers were ranked #1 last season while Robert Saleh took most the credit...but Joe Woods was the 9'ers secondary coach...

Woods has proven everywhere he can coach...Does Ward & Greedy & others want to accept the NFL coaching is a whole different thing?.. and maybe Ward did listen to Gregg Williams about "getting trucked in this league" 🥊   

as for Greedy? he didn't seem to play scared when it came to breaking down & tackling...but with that frame? target taking the wheels out..  

Yeah, way too many defenders with their heads down when O'Neil was here.  To be honest though, when Bob Slowik was here as DC - I never gagged more than watching our corners forfeit every opportunity to compete with gigantic cushions. 

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Jokes on the Weedster... had the Browns bothered to ask me about him, they wouldn't have drafted him either.

Its never a good idea to use a first round pick on a QB who will be receiving an AARP newsletter in a year or two, and eats his "supper" at 4pm. 

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1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Are you asking How...or Why.  The How...you answered....he was terrible.  The why is more of a mystery because he seemed to have the physical talent, but he completely had no heart or head for the game is my only guess. 

It's almost like he just didn't care enough to try. Maybe his rookie contract was so much $ to him, he thought he arrived just from that first contract. You'd think them dumping him to their arch rival would be a wake up call, but he was just as horrid in Pitt. 

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35 minutes ago, Icecube said:

It's almost like he just didn't care enough to try. Maybe his rookie contract was so much $ to him, he thought he arrived just from that first contract. You'd think them dumping him to their arch rival would be a wake up call, but he was just as horrid in Pitt. 

Can we just say that he sucked all the way around.....and ask ourselves has any team in NFL history ever take  2 more useless pieces of shit in the first round than the Browns did that year? 

I beg anyone to find such a circumstance. 

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2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I remember Brandon Weeden saying something along the lines of "Well, if the Browns had bothered to ask me about him, they probably wouldn't have drafted him..."

ugh...If Weeden could own you, you must really stink.  I didn't like him from when he held out while everyone else got signed.  

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1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Can we just say that he sucked all the way around.....and ask ourselves has any team in NFL history ever take  2 more useless pieces of shit in the first round than the Browns did that year? 

I beg anyone to find such a circumstance. 

Cripes, Gip, could you give a slightly easier challenge please? 1st of all, not many teams have 2 first round picks that high in one draft to begin with, so that alone really narrows the field. You'd probably most likely find an equal in futility from another Browns draft itself.

 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htm

2018 did have the Browns taking two 1st rounders, and let's assume Baker and Ward will not end up as bad as Gilbert and Manziel. 

And even though they nabbed Myles in the 2017 draft, they had 2 other fist rounders in Peppers and Joke, and those picks are not looking like great 1st rounders at this point. Pep is gone, after doing very little and Joke hasn't done squat and is chirping to get out of town. 

2016 yielded almost nothing but Schobert, in the entire draft class, 12 picks, TEN in the first 4 rounds. Insane to have that many high picks and get virtually nothing for their efforts. 

2015 was almost as bad. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Icecube said:

Cripes, Gip, could you give a slightly easier challenge please? 1st of all, not many teams have 2 first round picks that high in one draft to begin with, so that alone really narrows the field. You'd probably most likely find an equal in futility from another Browns draft itself.

 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/draft.htm

2018 did have the Browns taking two 1st rounders, and let's assume Baker and Ward will not end up as bad as Gilbert and Manziel. 

And even though they nabbed Myles in the 2017 draft, they had 2 other fist rounders in Peppers and Joke, and those picks are not looking like great 1st rounders at this point. Pep is gone, after doing very little and Joke hasn't done squat and is chirping to get out of town. 

2016 yielded almost nothing but Schobert, in the entire draft class, 12 picks, TEN in the first 4 rounds. Insane to have that many high picks and get virtually nothing for their efforts. 

2015 was almost as bad. 

 

 

Well, to answer the question....there IS in fact a Browns first round that was worse than the 2014  JFF/Gilbert first round.....but before I get to that, here are the other years in which the Browns had 2 first round picks:

2012   Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden.    Not good at all, but not as bad as 2 years later

2007  Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn.   If you draft one HOF and one bust....that is still a good round IMO

1994  Antonio Langham and Derrick Alexander.    Two pretty decent players

1978  Ozzie Newsome and Clay Matthews......one HOF, and another that could/maybe should be.  The best Browns first round ever.

1973  Steve Holden and Pete Adams.   Two busts, probably the worst behind 2014 and they year I will describe later

1970  Mike Phipps and Bob McKay.   Truly a below average round one..but there certainly have been worse

1962  Gary Collins and  Leroy Jackson.   Jackson was nothing, but Collins is one of the best WRs in Browns history

1952  Bert Reichechar  and  Harry Agannis.  Agannis never played,  but Reicharchar  had about a 9 year if fairly average career

No...the year that is even worse than 2014?:

1954  The Browns took  QB Bobby Garrett  #1 overall and OT  John Bauer #12 overall.   Garrett played in a total   9 games in his career, never starting a one.  And Bauer played in all of 2 games in his career in the NFL. 

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Interesting historical study -- Instead of "Defense wins championships" perhaps the slogan should be revised to "A historically good defense can, on occasion, overcome a mediocre offense to win a championship, while a historically good offense has even less of a chance to overcome a mediocre defense to win a championship."

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2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Well, to answer the question....there IS in fact a Browns first round that was worse than the 2014  JFF/Gilbert first round.....but before I get to that, here are the other years in which the Browns had 2 first round picks:

2012   Trent Richardson and Brandon Weeden.    Not good at all, but not as bad as 2 years later

2007  Joe Thomas and Brady Quinn.   If you draft one HOF and one bust....that is still a good round IMO

1994  Antonio Langham and Derrick Alexander.    Two pretty decent players

1978  Ozzie Newsome and Clay Matthews......one HOF, and another that could/maybe should be.  The best Browns first round ever.

1973  Steve Holden and Pete Adams.   Two busts, probably the worst behind 2014 and they year I will describe later

1970  Mike Phipps and Bob McKay.   Truly a below average round one..but there certainly have been worse

1962  Gary Collins and  Leroy Jackson.   Jackson was nothing, but Collins is one of the best WRs in Browns history

1952  Bert Reichechar  and  Harry Agannis.  Agannis never played,  but Reicharchar  had about a 9 year if fairly average career

No...the year that is even worse than 2014?:

1954  The Browns took  QB Bobby Garrett  #1 overall and OT  John Bauer #12 overall.   Garrett played in a total   9 games in his career, never starting a one.  And Bauer played in all of 2 games in his career in the NFL. 

Sadly, usually a team with two 1st round picks is generally a horrible team. And then to blow those high picks....what a giant obstacle. And, wow...Trent and Weed...what a bad, bad waste. 

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On 7/25/2020 at 10:38 AM, The Gipper said:

Are you asking How...or Why.  The How...you answered....he was terrible.  The why is more of a mystery because he seemed to have the physical talent, but he completely had no heart or head for the game is my only guess. 

BINGO!

At any level in the game of football, if you want to win/succeed - you better start at the heart. In a game where adversity defines you, if you show up without passion - you earn the negative labels.  I wish I knew how Greedy was going to turn out.  That said, I think we have a very, very underrated corner in Terrance Mitchell that I would like to see be allowed to compete for the starting job. Let's get back to making the better player earn the starting job and we'll be okay with the position.

There's always going to be someone bigger, stronger and faster than you; so you better know the ways you WILL win.  You only have 60 minutes to get it done; so you better do your research and have a plan.  As an OG, here's the ways I learned I could win consistently:  1) I knew the snap count my opponent didn't so I was 1st to contact 100% of the time. 2) I knew where the play was going so winning the area and position was MY advantage. 3) I was usually shorter than the guy I went against, which very often rewarded me with superior pad height, better leverage and more usage of the legs, hips and lower torso in battle.  What else?  The heart and passion I put into my football days was in my off season weight training and conditioning as well as the countless football camps I went to over the years.

Why ALL that?   When it's the 4th quarter of a close football game and the Coach calling the plays keeps choosing to run behind you because the opponent can't stop it - there isn't a better feeling in the world.  As I said, I was rarely the biggest guy in my trench wars.  I know David had a sling shot as his plan to beat Goliath.  I didn't have a sling shot but I had the plans that made me confident. Meatball on spaghetti, I knew there wasn't an opponent ready to outwork me especially in the 4th quarter (based on the fitness commitment I put in year round).  I felt that was confidence I deserved so there was no way I would allow anyone to take that away.  Again, when a coach is running the ball up your dumpster and down your opponent's esophagus for all to see - all your passion committed has been rewarded. Even better, when future opponents see this on film - and you close the next games the same way?    You're addicted to the high; but well aware of the reasons you've made it happen while remaining cognizant that it could easily end the second you're satisfied/complacent.  Like anything in life, you only get out of it what you're willing to put into it.  

Guys like Justine Gilbert and Josh Gordon who were nightmares for their college and pro football staffs to work/deal with - never learned to appreciate the feeling of a great outcome from a strong commitment/work ethic to achieve it.   That said, we've had plenty of guys on the Cleveland Browns with gigantic hearts that left us no other option but to appreciate them.  Brian Sipe was a 13th round draft choice rumored to have the arm strength of a Barbie Doll.  That said, he's the Cleveland Brown I've seen earn the NFL MVP honor.  If you saw what he overcame,  he gave you no choice but to appreciate all of the excitement he orchestrated.  LOVED him and Kosar.  Earnest Byner was a 10th round draft pick (which would be undrafted in today's 7 round draft). He teamed with Kevin Mack to be the only backfield here to have 2 different RBs gain over 1000 yards rushing in the same season for a franchise with a storied tradition of great RBs.  Both guys were also devastating blockers also equipped with reliable hands when needed.  RT Cody Risien made 2 Pro Bowls as a 7th round pick.  Tony (T-Bone) Jones was a very reliable LT from the undrafted ranks that didn't start to get the league-wide cred until he won Superbowls in Denver. ILB/MLB Mike Johnson was only 6'1" and 220 lbs when he played like a bad asss worthy of 2 Pro Bowl honors; and I also liked former Louisville LB Eddie Johnson that hit like a freight train. All these guys were very easy to appreciate as well as the many others I didn't even mention.

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Frank Minnifield was 5'9 180# and went undrafted in 1983 - a 12-round draft.  He signed with the USFL's Chicago Blitz and had to win a court case to be able to sign with the Browns in 1984.  4 straight Pro Bowls and the NFL's all-decade 1980's team.

Marion Motley was undrafted in 1946.  2 pro bowls, led the NFL in rushing in 1950 during our title run, 1940's all-decade team.  He wrote to Paul Brown and asked for a tryout.  His roommate at that tryout was Bill Willis who was also undrafted and whose story you should know.

Lou Groza was also undrafted in 1946.  He started at OT as well as K from 1948 until someone named Dick Schafrath came along in 1958.  Dick Schafrath was voted to the PFRA Hall of Very Good in 2007.

Gene Hickerson was a 7th round OG in 1957 who is in Canton.  6 pro bowls, 1960's all-decade team.  Hickerson was brought onstage during his HoF induction in his wheelchair, propelled by Bobby Mitchell, Jim Brown, and Leroy Kelly. It was announced as "one last time, Gene Hickerson leads Bobby Mitchell, Jim Brown, and Leroy Kelly."

 

Browns also drafted the long-time Packers C Frank Winters in the 10th round in 1987.

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1 hour ago, Unsympathetic said:

Frank Minnifield was 5'9 180# and went undrafted in 1983 - a 12-round draft.  He signed with the USFL's Chicago Blitz and had to win a court case to be able to sign with the Browns in 1984.  4 straight Pro Bowls and the NFL's all-decade 1980's team.

Marion Motley was undrafted in 1946.  2 pro bowls, led the NFL in rushing in 1950 during our title run, 1940's all-decade team.  He wrote to Paul Brown and asked for a tryout.  His roommate at that tryout was Bill Willis who was also undrafted and whose story you should know.

Lou Groza was also undrafted in 1946.  He started at OT as well as K from 1948 until someone named Dick Schafrath came along in 1958.  Dick Schafrath was voted to the PFRA Hall of Very Good in 2007.

Gene Hickerson was a 7th round OG in 1957 who is in Canton.  6 pro bowls, 1960's all-decade team.  Hickerson was brought onstage during his HoF induction in his wheelchair, propelled by Bobby Mitchell, Jim Brown, and Leroy Kelly. It was announced as "one last time, Gene Hickerson leads Bobby Mitchell, Jim Brown, and Leroy Kelly."

 

Browns also drafted the long-time Packers C Frank Winters in the 10th round in 1987.

Well...the deal with  Motley and Willis was that they were black.....and the NFL, being under the control of people like  George Preston Marshall, an avowed segregationist, would not draft any black players.  

Also...don't forget Ernest Byner, a 10th round draft pick and a man with great heart for the game. 

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11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well...the deal with  Motley and Willis was that they were black.....and the NFL, being under the control of people like  George Preston Marshall, an avowed segregationist, would not draft any black players.  

Also...don't forget Ernest Byner, a 10th round draft pick and a man with great heart for the game. 

I mentioned Earnest Byner in the post before the one you replied to Gips; but I'm glad to see someone else remembering him. 

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