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NFL / Covid Updates

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11 hours ago, Barry said:

You have touched on an excellent point which a good friend of mine, who is a psychologist, has written about. The topic is how science deniers fail to appreciate detail, or complexities, in argument. They think in broad concepts, black and white. Exactly what you refer to. This is far from talking about football, but then again this topic is also. For those interested here is the article: https://newsregister.com/article?articleTitle=jeremy-shapiro-science-deniers-fail-to-appreciate-complexities--1526674871--29659--commentary

I read that article and the whole time it was like he was just describing half of the posters on the poli board

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10 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Everyone has the freedom to think freely and believe what they want. That is your right as well as anybody else for that matter. 

So those who belittle other for having differing beliefs, should listen twice as much as they speak. 

Those who think I'm insensitive or think that I believe that any loss of life is okay have me sorely mistaken, it's quite the contrary.

When I say that the "common flu" kills 60,000 Americans and over 600,000 HUMAN BEINGS across the face of the Earth each year; I don't mean it dismissively or to minimize those deaths or to say that some death is worse than another. The bottom line is I care and hope the best for each and everyone, life is precious. It's just to offer another perspective. 

I don't think you're insensitive

I think you're stupid 

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9 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Then there again it's what FACTS do you believe in. 

I say it's a FACT that Jesus is a real and living God. Someone who does not believe would say it's a FACT that he's not real.

Ooohhh

Ok

Gotcha

 

It all makes sense now. 

 

Yep. I get it. 

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10 hours ago, PoeticG said:

Well, depending on your interpretation of the facts you certainly can have two different sides to facts. 

NO, you can't.  You can have 2 different interpretations, you cannot have 2 different sides to facts. 

Say that analogy for instance about the Browns being defending Super Bowl Champions... Being as each season is reset and no team is greater than another, as long as Cleveland never loses they are essentially the Superbowl Champions... they are defending their title each time they take the field. 

I know it's not quite the same but a cool thought none-the-less...

Well, there are facts, and there may be different interpretation of facts....and then there is dumbassery.   Welcome to that last world. 

 

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The result of covid is absolutely not simply "death" or "nothing".

Hundreds of thousands worldwide - a big % of that in the US - will be left with chronic kidney, heart, and neural issues for the rest of their lives.  This includes renal dialysis.

 

You're welcome to your own OPINION - but you're not welcome to your own FACT.

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2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Ooohhh

Ok

Gotcha

 

It all makes sense now. 

 

Yep. I get it. 

Was their any doubt that PoG would be a Bible Thumper? 

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21 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Was their any doubt that PoG would be a Bible Thumper? 

Nothing wrong with that as long as it does not get in the way of reasoned thought. 

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One of the 'problems' is that science is not like math. In math we know that 2+2=4 (throw out the esoteric stuff that 'proves' it isn't). In science it is evidenced-based and, while some of it, e.g. chemical reactions, approach certainty like math, science is mainly reached thru empirical means.

A good example is that of cigarette smoking. Most people think cigarette smoking is linked to lung cancer. (Believe it or not this was actually argued about extensively in the media 60 years ago). So can anyone say how many cigarettes you need to smoke before you get cancer? Or how many months, years, decades you need to smoke before you get cancer? What about the people who smoke their entire lives and don't get it?

That's the problem with science and why some people deny it or distort it. Sometimes it can't give exact answers, and even if 95% of the scientists believe a connection, there will be some people who will look at the 5% of people, or the fact that the 95% can't answer exactly when, how, how much, etc. and say "See?! I told you they were a bunch of quacks!" To give it a Browns' analogy, it's like the Browns dominate in a game over the Ravens and win 30-10 but some Ravens fans point to the 3 plays which the Ravens looked good and say "See? You didn't dominate us. Look at how we broke your tackles or got to Baker!"

When covid-19 first broke and China began shutting down there was skepticism in the U.S. about the disease. But if you think about it, China was voluntarily shutting down their economy, at a time when they were having sensitive trade discussions with the U.S. Why the fuck would they do that at that time unless they felt that the situation was unbelievably serious? They didn't say "Well, this is like the flu and no big deal and we will treat it such". They shut down transportation and festivities during their biggest holiday season, the Chinese New Year, when billions of trips are made by Chinese to visit relatives.

Or, why are most doctors and health officials, both Rep and Dem, going to such great lengths in telling us to be careful and promote a shelter-in-place? Are all of them on the same page? No, of course not. But are they in some kind of conspiracy, or are questioning, en masse, the stats which they are privy to and knowledgeable about?

It's just something to think about.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Was their any doubt that PoG would be a Bible Thumper? 

 

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Nothing wrong with that as long as it does not get in the way of reasoned thought. 

Well that's generally what I would define as a "Bible thumper".

Putting religion above critical thinking and common sense.

 

The difference between studying stories in the Bible and learning lessons or whatever from them and believing everything in there literally happened

(I visited the Creationism Museum right before Covid hit and posted about it in the poli board. That place is a trip)

 

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1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

 

Well that's generally what I would define as a "Bible thumper".

Putting religion above critical thinking and common sense.

 

The difference between studying stories in the Bible and learning lessons or whatever from them and believing everything in there literally happened

(I visited the Creationism Museum right before Covid hit and posted about it in the poli board. That place is a trip)

 

Well, I am of the belief that people can  have their faith and still think critically and use common sense.   It is just the ones with absurd notions,  like thinking that the Earth is only 6000 years old...we know it isn't and so do they.  They just have some mind-numbingly stubborn notions about it.

... and that evolution is a myth.   It isn't, it is proven scientific fact....What those of faith with reason say is that evolution is the method that God gave us that set creation into motion..

  or that God will protect me from whatever disease is out there without the intervention of medicine etc.  .....except, of course, if they believe God is omnipotent and created all.....then didn't he create the disease and send it to kill so many of us? There answer being:  Oh, he sent those to test us?   Well isn't part of the test to see how smart or dumb you may be,  in that he would have also sent the doctors, nurses, inoculations, vaccinations that were meant to save you and keep you alive. 

Bro Get on the Boat! No Bro God Will Save Me No Bro God Bro Get ...

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1 hour ago, Barry said:

That's the problem with science and why some people deny it or distort it.

 

even if 95% of the scientists believe a connection, there will be some people who will look at the 5% of people

The 5% who "don't" will always have that "research" paid by the industry that is negatively impacted economically.

This isn't difficult: If you offer to pay everyone's salaries/provide ritzy labs&research gear, you can PAY PEOPLE TO LIE.  This is precisely what happens on the "news" networks -- it's stenography rather than journalism, and in every case those 5% are stenographers rather than scientists.

 

So, unless you actually think everything on both MSNBC and Fox News [see what i did there? Both sides!] is pure unvarnished truth nuggets..  You have to look through the source of payment before just jumping to the "conclusion" from a "scientist."

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32 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

The 5% who "don't" will always have that "research" paid by the industry that is negatively impacted economically.

This isn't difficult: If you offer to pay everyone's salaries/provide ritzy labs&research gear, you can PAY PEOPLE TO LIE.  This is precisely what happens on the "news" networks -- it's stenography rather than journalism, and in every case those 5% are stenographers rather than scientists.

 

So, unless you actually think everything on both MSNBC and Fox News [see what i did there? Both sides!] is pure unvarnished truth nuggets..  You have to look through the source of payment before just jumping to the "conclusion" from a "scientist."

It doesn't even have to be money-focused. Just look at the same story and how it is presented in various countries. You realize how much things are framed differently because of different cultural values.

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4 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

 

(I visited the Creationism Museum right before Covid hit and posted about it in the poli board. That place is a trip)

 

Back in 2018 I spent a few days in Cincinnati while the Indians played an interleague series vs the Reds. I was wearing an Indians shirt on a steamboat tour of the Ohio River and a couple from Ashland saw my shirt and started talking to me. I told them that I was from NE Ohio too, visiting Cincinnati to catch a few Indians games. 

"So what brings you guys down here" I ask.

"Well, we came down here to visit the Creationism Museum..." they replied, without a drop of irony. 

I'm not sure how I didn't laugh right in their face. 

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1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

Back in 2018 I spent a few days in Cincinnati while the Indians played an interleague series vs the Reds. I was wearing an Indians shirt on a steamboat tour of the Ohio River and a couple from Ashland saw my shirt and started talking to me. I told them that I was from NE Ohio too, visiting Cincinnati to catch a few Indians games. 

"So what brings you guys down here" I ask.

"Well, we came down here to visit the Creationism Museum..." they replied, without a drop of irony. 

I'm not sure how I didn't laugh right in their face. 

You could have said that you was looking for the dinosaur museum from 65,000,000 years ago.......if Cincinnati has one.   :lol:

That generally freaks them out.

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2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Back in 2018 I spent a few days in Cincinnati while the Indians played an interleague series vs the Reds. I was wearing an Indians shirt on a steamboat tour of the Ohio River and a couple from Ashland saw my shirt and started talking to me. I told them that I was from NE Ohio too, visiting Cincinnati to catch a few Indians games. 

"So what brings you guys down here" I ask.

"Well, we came down here to visit the Creationism Museum..." they replied, without a drop of irony. 

I'm not sure how I didn't laugh right in their face. 

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I don’t wear a mask. Don’t have any left. Had three N-95 masks out in the shop for when I do bondo and fiberglass work and a box of dust masks. 

Surgeon General comes out and tells people not to buy them, they do nothing against COVID. 

News reports hospitals are in short supply and if you have any, please donate. So I gave all of them to my neighbor who works at the local hospital. (Who reports back to me last week that it’s been as slow as she has seen it at her hospital with only a few cases and none severe, all got sent home to quarantine....yet the news tells me hospitals are busting at the seem....should I ask for my masks back? WTF is going on?)

A month later, they tell me to wear them, because somehow they work now for not letting germs out....but they still let them in? Is there a one way valve on these things?

So the Surgeon General didn’t know last month that masks prevented this when I was told not to buy any and to give them away if I had them? WTF? My masks are gone. And nope... not cutting up a sock and wearing it around my face. The only thing I have left is my painting respirator... and I’m not wearing that thing for hours at a time....

I don’t know what to believe anymore.

At work they take my temperature with some thermometer while they stand six feet away.... tell me I’m good and send me on my way.... How can that be accurate? They don’t give me a mask or tell me to wear one just suggest it... Tell me “don’t get close to people“ then send us out in the same trucks...?

Go to Home Depot and it’s like freaking Black Friday....people wearing mask walk right beside me and stand right next to me in line... Half of them have their nose sticking out.... or the damn thing around their neck.....old people driving around in those motorized carts buying nothing.... just driving around....

Even though the signs everywhere say stand six feet away nobody does. Walk between me and the wood pile I’m pulling from... instead of the 20 feet that’s wide open behind me...

 I’m buying a trailer full of lumber for work, and they close down the lumber yard exit for some reason and force me to wheel all my lumber over to the small checkouts where 90 people are waiting in line..... 

All the employees wearing masks walk around the plastic barrier they are suppose to stand behind and scan what I’m buying right next to me, then tell me to punch in all my numbers and email on the same number pad the last 100 people touched without wiping it down..... 

So.... all these people will wear a mask but then follow NONE of the other guidelines? 

I don’t know... I’ve been out there everyday since this thing started. No time off, no down time. Feel like I’ve been told different stories at different times to fit what they want and need. People telling me what I should do, then follow none of the guidelines themselves....Kinda pissed about it honestly. 

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23 hours ago, PoeticG said:

So, is it the flu or not?

Not.

Influenza and corona are different families of viruses.  Covid-19 is one of the many types of coronaviruses.

Prime difference is that coronas [including covid] are mostly associated with shortness of breath, but flu only very rarely is.

There's more than one coronavirus; there's more than one influenza virus.   

 

Asking if covid-19 is the flu is no different than asking if a doberman pinscher is a cat.  Of course they all dislike PoeticG, but that's where the similarities end.

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4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Back in 2018 I spent a few days in Cincinnati while the Indians played an interleague series vs the Reds. I was wearing an Indians shirt on a steamboat tour of the Ohio River and a couple from Ashland saw my shirt and started talking to me. I told them that I was from NE Ohio too, visiting Cincinnati to catch a few Indians games. 

"So what brings you guys down here" I ask.

"Well, we came down here to visit the Creationism Museum..." they replied, without a drop of irony. 

I'm not sure how I didn't laugh right in their face. 

I posted about it and included pictures. There's some insane shit.

 

I did tell one kid off on his own to stay in school... So hopefully I helped him out

 

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1 hour ago, hx214 said:

I don’t wear a mask. Don’t have any left. Had three N-95 masks out in the shop for when I do bondo and fiberglass work and a box of dust masks. 

Surgeon General comes out and tells people not to buy them, they do nothing against COVID. 

News reports hospitals are in short supply and if you have any, please donate. So I gave all of them to my neighbor who works at the local hospital. (Who reports back to me last week that it’s been as slow as she has seen it at her hospital with only a few cases and none severe, all got sent home to quarantine....yet the news tells me hospitals are busting at the seem....should I ask for my masks back? WTF is going on?)

A month later, they tell me to wear them, because somehow they work now for not letting germs out....but they still let them in? Is there a one way valve on these things?

So the Surgeon General didn’t know last month that masks prevented this when I was told not to buy any and to give them away if I had them? WTF? My masks are gone. And nope... not cutting up a sock and wearing it around my face. The only thing I have left is my painting respirator... and I’m not wearing that thing for hours at a time....

I don’t know what to believe anymore.

At work they take my temperature with some thermometer while they stand six feet away.... tell me I’m good and send me on my way.... How can that be accurate? They don’t give me a mask or tell me to wear one just suggest it... Tell me “don’t get close to people“ then send us out in the same trucks...?

Go to Home Depot and it’s like freaking Black Friday....people wearing mask walk right beside me and stand right next to me in line... Half of them have their nose sticking out.... or the damn thing around their neck.....old people driving around in those motorized carts buying nothing.... just driving around....

Even though the signs everywhere say stand six feet away nobody does. Walk between me and the wood pile I’m pulling from... instead of the 20 feet that’s wide open behind me...

 I’m buying a trailer full of lumber for work, and they close down the lumber yard exit for some reason and force me to wheel all my lumber over to the small checkouts where 90 people are waiting in line..... 

All the employees wearing masks walk around the plastic barrier they are suppose to stand behind and scan what I’m buying right next to me, then tell me to punch in all my numbers and email on the same number pad the last 100 people touched without wiping it down..... 

So.... all these people will wear a mask but then follow NONE of the other guidelines? 

I don’t know... I’ve been out there everyday since this thing started. No time off, no down time. Feel like I’ve been told different stories at different times to fit what they want and need. People telling me what I should do, then follow none of the guidelines themselves....Kinda pissed about it honestly. 

 Well for what it's worth you should write a song about that. 😁

 

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2 hours ago, hx214 said:

I don’t wear a mask. Don’t have any left. Had three N-95 masks out in the shop for when I do bondo and fiberglass work and a box of dust masks. 

Surgeon General comes out and tells people not to buy them, they do nothing against COVID. 

News reports hospitals are in short supply and if you have any, please donate. So I gave all of them to my neighbor who works at the local hospital. (Who reports back to me last week that it’s been as slow as she has seen it at her hospital with only a few cases and none severe, all got sent home to quarantine....yet the news tells me hospitals are busting at the seem....should I ask for my masks back? WTF is going on?)

A month later, they tell me to wear them, because somehow they work now for not letting germs out....but they still let them in? Is there a one way valve on these things?

So the Surgeon General didn’t know last month that masks prevented this when I was told not to buy any and to give them away if I had them? WTF? My masks are gone. And nope... not cutting up a sock and wearing it around my face. The only thing I have left is my painting respirator... and I’m not wearing that thing for hours at a time....

I don’t know what to believe anymore.

At work they take my temperature with some thermometer while they stand six feet away.... tell me I’m good and send me on my way.... How can that be accurate? They don’t give me a mask or tell me to wear one just suggest it... Tell me “don’t get close to people“ then send us out in the same trucks...?

Go to Home Depot and it’s like freaking Black Friday....people wearing mask walk right beside me and stand right next to me in line... Half of them have their nose sticking out.... or the damn thing around their neck.....old people driving around in those motorized carts buying nothing.... just driving around....

Even though the signs everywhere say stand six feet away nobody does. Walk between me and the wood pile I’m pulling from... instead of the 20 feet that’s wide open behind me...

 I’m buying a trailer full of lumber for work, and they close down the lumber yard exit for some reason and force me to wheel all my lumber over to the small checkouts where 90 people are waiting in line..... 

All the employees wearing masks walk around the plastic barrier they are suppose to stand behind and scan what I’m buying right next to me, then tell me to punch in all my numbers and email on the same number pad the last 100 people touched without wiping it down..... 

So.... all these people will wear a mask but then follow NONE of the other guidelines? 

I don’t know... I’ve been out there everyday since this thing started. No time off, no down time. Feel like I’ve been told different stories at different times to fit what they want and need. People telling me what I should do, then follow none of the guidelines themselves....Kinda pissed about it honestly. 

Well written hx214. Sums up the frenetic goings on right now. I don’t want to use the term “blind leading the blind”, but l’m fairly certain the experts are doing some degree of figuring it out as they go.

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On 5/8/2020 at 10:15 PM, PoeticG said:
  1. Everyone has the freedom to think freely and believe what they want. That is your right as well as anybody else for that matter. 
  2. So those who belittle other for having differing beliefs, should listen twice as much as they speak. 
  3. Those who think I'm insensitive or think that I believe that any loss of life is okay have me sorely mistaken, it's quite the contrary.
  4. When I say that the "common flu" kills 60,000 Americans and over 600,000 HUMAN BEINGS across the face of the Earth each year; I don't mean it dismissively or to minimize those deaths or to say that some death is worse than another. The bottom line is I care and hope the best for each and everyone, life is precious. It's just to offer another perspective. 
  1. No... they don't... not when there is an objective truth. You can believe your new car gets 100 mpg despite the sticker in the window that said "30" and that after only 400 miles since your first fill-up the gas gauge that now says "E" is wrong... but it only means that soon you'll be walking to the gas station. At least in my example it is only a non-believer's shoe leather that is "at risk". In the case of a pandemic non-believers put others at risk.
  2. This is not a matter of believing that a given God is the one true God or that they are all the same God or that there is no God. That is a matter of differing beliefs.
  3. Do you understand that you make it difficult to see this truth about yourself that you claim when you advocate positions that can only result in more deaths?
  4. The "common flu" figures you quote are objectively wrong. I've shown you that twice now for the US figures, so let's go for the global...

Late last year the CDC reexamined its global death estimation methodology in light of some new models for one of the two modes of lethality. They stood by their earlier work finding "an average of 389 000 (uncertainty range 294 000-518000) respiratory deaths were associated with influenza globally each year during the study period (2002-2001)."

So your 600,000 figure is simply wrong. Not wrong for me... not wrong for you... just plain wrong. The real number is 389,000 on average.

Additionally use of the 518,000 figure would be wrong... doubly so if you use it in an "at least" context. The 518,000 in this case represents an upper bound, one of two 95% confidence limits for the real average. Put another way there's is approximately an 1 in 40 chance that the true average is greater than, is "at least" 518,000.

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On 5/8/2020 at 11:42 PM, PoeticG said:

Well, depending on your interpretation of the facts you certainly can have two different sides to facts. 

Say that analogy for instance about the Browns being defending Super Bowl Champions... Being as each season is reset and no team is greater than another, as long as Cleveland never loses they are essentially the Superbowl Champions... they are defending their title each time they take the field. 

I know it's not quite the same but a cool thought none-the-less...

Well this example of twisted logic certainly explains a great deal.

 

Not sure it's "cool", but it certainly is "comforting" to ignore the fact that the Browns have never appeared in let alone won a SB.

 

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On 5/8/2020 at 9:15 PM, D Bone said:

Tendencies simply aren't useful when you are arguing a hypothetical trade off between mitigating virus deaths and increasing suicides. You have to bring numbers... not just hand-waving to the suicide side of the case... even if it is CDC hand-waving.

Suicide is a complex subject. I've no doubt that its rate increased during the Great Depression, but at what point? The reports of brokers jumping out of windows on the day of The October,1929 Crash were false. The rate during October and November of that year were "... among the lowest of any month of that year."

Hopelessness is one of the many risk factors associated with suicides. That that feeling grew in intensity and reach as the Great Depression went on and on is undeniable, but it went on for over a decade. We are two months into the current recession. Are we really so fragile that this is already a legitimate argument?

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 10:31 AM, Unsympathetic said:

Hundreds of thousands worldwide - a big % of that in the US - will be left with chronic kidney, heart, and neural issues for the rest of their lives.  This includes renal dialysis.

Not to mention compromised respiratory systems...

The mounting evidence of these residual effects in Covid-19 survivors are both alarming and will add to continuing health care burdens worldwide.

 

And now we have these Kawasaki/TS Syndrome kids emerging that may be related to the virus.

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15 hours ago, hx214 said:

I don’t wear a mask. Don’t have any left. Had three N-95 masks out in the shop for when I do bondo and fiberglass work and a box of dust masks. 

Surgeon General comes out and tells people not to buy them, they do nothing against COVID. 

News reports hospitals are in short supply and if you have any, please donate. So I gave all of them to my neighbor who works at the local hospital. (Who reports back to me last week that it’s been as slow as she has seen it at her hospital with only a few cases and none severe, all got sent home to quarantine....yet the news tells me hospitals are busting at the seem....should I ask for my masks back? WTF is going on?)

A month later, they tell me to wear them, because somehow they work now for not letting germs out....but they still let them in? Is there a one way valve on these things?

So the Surgeon General didn’t know last month that masks prevented this when I was told not to buy any and to give them away if I had them? WTF? My masks are gone. And nope... not cutting up a sock and wearing it around my face. The only thing I have left is my painting respirator... and I’m not wearing that thing for hours at a time....

All the employees wearing masks walk around the plastic barrier they are suppose to stand behind and scan what I’m buying right next to me, then tell me to punch in all my numbers and email on the same number pad the last 100 people touched without wiping it down..... 

So.... all these people will wear a mask but then follow NONE of the other guidelines? 

I don’t know... I’ve been out there everyday since this thing started. No time off, no down time. Feel like I’ve been told different stories at different times to fit what they want and need. People telling me what I should do, then follow none of the guidelines themselves....Kinda pissed about it honestly. 

I don't blame you for being pissed. Consistency has not been a hallmark of our national response.

Going to whittle down the rest of your in an effort to help. Good on you for donating, but if after reading the below you feel that you can properly use an N95, then yes, I'd say to ask your neighbor for a couple back.

Masks: These are cloth. They are very available online. Most have a pocket into which you insert a piece of paper towel cut to fit. They are not sealed to your face, so they will not fully protect you, but rather will substantially protect those around you by collecting droplets in your exhaled breath. Their relative effectiveness of have to do with air flow rate and curvature of air flow path.

Breath thru your nose. Pay attention to the sound and duration of the inhale vs. the exhale portions. I think you will find that exhalation is shorter and more sudden. The suddenness creates droplet impingement on inside of the mask that inhalation does not.

Respirators: This is a broad term that includes N-95 "masks".

N-95: Is a technical NIOSH/OSHA designation. It means that properly fitted the wearer can expect that 95% of all air-borne particulates greater than 0.3 microns (>0.3 μm or micrometers) to be filtered out of what is breathed. Unlike a cloth mask it is meant to seal to the face forcing all airflow thru its filter-media. Three factors have to be satisfied for a seal to be formed: fit, smooth face and proper donning. In general these are single use respirators, but reusable, cartridge-style models are available.Permanent employees where I worked were issued these as they are more economical if use is high.

Fit: Many do not realize that N95's come in different sizes. Most commonly they include small, small/medium, medium, medium/large, and large. Which is right for you? Only testing can determine this. Most commonly a saccharine-laced, water aerosol is used to test fit. If you taste "sweet", then you don't have a seal.

Face: Growth rates vary, but in general if you have facial hair longer than a day or two's stubble, then you aren't going to get a proper seal. And any long growth from a beard, 'stache or sideburns have to be clear of the seal.

Donning: There's a right and wrong way. Also some N95s bands are adjustable and there's a proper order of adjustment. Here's a video...

Chemical: These are generally cartridge respirators using cartridges that layer activated charcoal behind particulate filter media. Your "paint" respirator may be of this type. Your bondo one should be as well. All three fit factors apply to these as well.

 

As for touching surfaces... you can carry a pencil for keypads and screens, but also remember it's not what you touch, it's what you touch after that. Keep hands off your face... and especially away from your eyes. Keep hand sanitizer in your vehicle... but since I park outside in plenty of UV, I don't worry about steering wheels, etc., I just wash hands thoroughly after unloading when I get home.

Hope this helped some...

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On 5/10/2020 at 9:51 AM, Tour2ma said:

Tendencies simply aren't useful when you are arguing a hypothetical trade off between mitigating virus deaths and increasing suicides. You have to bring numbers... not just hand-waving to the suicide side of the case... even if it is CDC hand-waving.

Suicide is a complex subject. I've no doubt that its rate increased during the Great Depression, but at what point? The reports of brokers jumping out of windows on the day of The October,1929 Crash were false. The rate during October and November of that year were "... among the lowest of any month of that year."

Hopelessness is one of the many risk factors associated with suicides. That that feeling grew in intensity and reach as the Great Depression went on and on is undeniable, but it went on for over a decade. We are two months into the current recession. Are we really so fragile that this is already a legitimate argument?

 

While I posted about suicides, I posted about stress related deaths as well, and you don't need anything other than critical thinking skills that Tia is so found of to understand that.

It's common knowledge that stress is a major contributor to poor physical health, and one of the main areas affected by stress is the heart..... you know, that thing that kills more people on this planet every second than any other cause.... and it's not even close. 

For those that aren't yet financially impacted by either being still employed or are retired and receiving a nice hard earned lifetime pension and can't understand how people that have lost or will lose their business can be so callus to the situation.....  Let's have some fun. 

 

All I ask for this is that you actually try it for just 90 seconds, and really try to imagine what it may feel like if it were to actually happen to you, and not just start hammering away at the keyboard to either tell me that it's impossible because of section 12.34.98 of the Earth Pension Law Rules Act, or you just want to reply immediately to win the argument...... 90 fucking seconds people. You got this!

 

For those of you that are retired (or are close to retiring) and are enjoying that killer lifetime pension and health care, imagine that you receive a letter in the mail from the federal government saying that they are really sorry, but they are going to have to immediately confiscate your pension and any health insurance to help repay the government, and that it is in the best interest of the people to do so, and they thank you for your understanding while 'doing your part' to keep everyone safe. 

Imagine if everything you worked your ass off for your whole life was now gone like a fart in the wind...... Do you think you might then be under some pretty significant stress levels after such a letter? Do you think the stress levels would rise exponentially as the mortgage, Lexus payment, college tuition and health insurance premiums came due?? Do you think those stress levels will be good or bad for your overall health???

 

If you took 90 seconds to really imagine this happening and it didn't raise your anxiety levels and you still don't think the result wouldn't affect your life expectancy, well, you either didn't try hard enough or are a still working younger person who thinks they will never get old.  

My grandpa who died when I was 12 had a really cool saying that I always try to live by..... "It all depends on whose ox is gored"' 

COVID the sickness doesn't bother me, because luckily, it has not affected me or those I love and I 100% completely admit that.

COVID the financial crisis doesn't bother others, because luckily, it has not affected them or those they love..... but will they 100% completely admit that?  

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23 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

l’m fairly certain the experts are doing some degree of figuring it out as they go.

This is why it's important to fund government agencies - even when no immediate issue is visible.  Yep - Reagan was wrong - GOVERNMENT IS GOOD.

If you want experts to have a solution.. you have to fund the research to acquire that solution.  And because discovering previously unknown things about reality is difficult, you have to fund lots of research that may not have a immediately tangible benefit..  because you don't know how pieces of information actually tie together.  Reality is multifactorial; nothing is a one-factor answer.  

And you have to put public health leadership on equal importance with other departments.

Trump eliminated the department with the job of coordinating the national pandemic response.. and replaced it with Jared Kushner, who's so stupid his daddy had to spend 2.5 million just to get him into Harvard. 

The other issue with eliminating those jobs is that without a representative at high-level meetings, "pandemic response" got [gets] zero pull on Trump's attention.. thus federal response is slow, and even today it's incorrect/inefficient.

I think this is the actual thing you're seeing:

  1. the experts don't have the information they should due to cuts to their department's budget [not just this year but for many years -- we still don't have the studies to know what we should from the first SARS.. also a coronavirus, by the way]
  2. the expert leadership is not invited to the meetings they should be [to help inform/coordinate every aspect]
  3. the experts are ignored even in the few meetings they are invited to

Don't blame the experts when the village idiot has the final say.. For example: Of course he's going to tell you to drink bleach, he's the village idiot.

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13 hours ago, Unsympathetic said:

Don't blame the experts when the village idiot has the final say.. For example: Of course he's going to tell you to drink bleach, he's the village idiot.

The problem with political jokes is that sometimes they get elected.😂

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59 minutes ago, TexasAg1969 said:

sometimes they get elected.😂

He is a political joke.. who won because the other candidate found a way to be worse.  Who wants to bet that the D's "lesser of two evils" strategy won't get them defeated twice in a row?

Pelosi has provided the $$ for each and every one of Trump's initiatives, Schumer has supported each of his judges, and no Senator has used either their hold or filibuster abilities to halt the trillion-dollar pro-corporate bills going thru the senate.

Many countries have one-party rule.. America does as well, except that in typical American fashion, there's two of them.

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2 hours ago, TexasAg1969 said:

The problem with political jokes is that sometimes they get elected.😂

The Apprentice.....but hey if the political thing didn't work out he could always go back to washed up celebrity reality shows.

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