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The GOAT is Leaving New England... And Going to Tampa

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4 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Neither would you to mine. And you are probably right. I would want to talk football, just like I do here.  But all I get in response is passive-aggressive condescension.

So, maybe you can  do some self examination and work on THAT.

Be careful what you ask for... lil Gippie...

 

As I've said before...

You don't know enough about the subject matter to talk football. It's at the heart of the gross insecurity you display here day after day after day....

It's part of why you argue incessantly about crap... about nothing... about opinions. Here's a challenge for you... find me a single, opinion-based argument you've ever had here when you ended up where anyone came around to your view. Just one... I've never seen one... not with a Browns fan... a Steelers fan... anyone.

Add in the lawyering Nero cites and you have the toxic Gipper cocktail that we endure here day after day after...

I honestly thought you'd made some kind of personal breakthrough when you allowed me my opinion in your post before I threw up the Louie clip. I even ignored this bit and its laughable pretzel logic...

On 3/18/2020 at 7:13 PM, The Gipper said:

AGain.....it is a  matter of recency bias that to your mind makes your opinion correct.  Which means that you are not necessarily wrong, but you cannot by any objective measure prove you are right.   The only objective measure is the record, and Otto wins there....in my opinion.  

You don't even allow for your "objective measure" to be a product of your opinion as well as Otto's status. Put another way your proof is a figment of your imagination.

Well here is my opinion... of all the means of evaluating a QB, his record is the worst.

 

Then I had the audacity to ask two questions to try to build on the breakthrough. I guess this 2nd one was one too many...

13 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Gip, you harp on "recency bias" in others. Aren't you practicing "relativity bias"? Totally appropriate for eras... not so much for "all-time".

But lesson learned.. no more outreach...

As I said before the all too brief cease fire... you're a post whore dealing in quantity since you can offer no quality. Part of your dealing requires you not taking a minute to consider a post before replying to it. So you react to:

  • my 2nd question...
  • a misguided challenge to a comment our new return man is "Icecube sized"...
  • and way too many more to enumerate.

Hell your misreads and misstatements were the fodder for all my comments leading up to the cease-fire... and now they will be again.

 

Still too passive for your taste?

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1 hour ago, Westside Steve said:

Frankly I can't see it. Oh well. I couldn't see Joe Namath playing for the Rams either.

WSS

lol ..I don't think Joe did either. He thought he'd give it a shot. Lasted a year.

 

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12 minutes ago, Gorka said:

lol ..I don't think Joe did either. He thought he'd give it a shot. Lasted a year.

 

Not even. I went to the game on my birthday so I could say I saw Joe play. 😣 He was either hurt or benched head Pat Haden started the game what November 27th a number that was higher than the degrees outside. Browns quarterback was dr. Dave Mays who threw for zero touchdowns and the Rams won 3 field goals to zip.

WSS

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I remember Jim Brown wanting to make a comeback at 47, but for only one reason. Never was there a player who felt so threatened,  so consumed with the likelihood of another running back breaking his record.  That bothered the fuck out of him so much as to ask Al Davis if he could suit up in a Raiders uniform. The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harrison.

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1 hour ago, Gorka said:

The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harris.

FIFY😴

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8 hours ago, Nero said:

I can see how Gipper became successful in a law related career. Always trying to find excuses and arguments beyond a reasonable point, throwing water and mudding the field for the fight if needed... Because that is what it feels like, not a discussion, a fight.

Well, in any legal argument....you present facts.   I have simply presented facts.  People just don't like the facts, apparently.  If you feel like it is a fight....that is your perspective, not mine. Perhaps when someone makes a cogent argument that has you questioning your position...you feel that is a fight?  No, its a debate.  Maybe your temperament means that you get overstressed in any debate. 

 

A war of constant siege. He will dedicate hours to counter attack the most miserable point and will never concede that he was wrong,

Except, of course, I have conceded that I am wrong.....when I am wrong, factualy.  (yes, Brandon Weeden did start his first game as a rookie...I was wrong about that)  Its just that here I am not wrong.  Because here it IS a matter of opinion.  When I am wrong and concede it, no one makes any big deal over it.  When I am right or if I have my own ideas, and you all don't like that the facts support me,  then you all get all huffy...because while you all think you can have your opinions, if I have one that varies from yours... you all get stupid.  You all are the ones that make it a fight. 

 

It must be tiring always being right. 

Not at all.  I just let facts speak for themselves. Not much effort at all really. Why would doing that bring me any stress whatsoever. 

 

In my opinion, Tom Brady is the greatest of all time. 

And I have never had a problem with that opinion.  All I have said is that it is arguable, backed up by facts, that another opinion or two are possible...perhaps even likely, but I am not allowed to have MY opinion, apparently.  Nor am I allowed to defend it?   Is that the way you think it should be? 

I could give you some facts.....take these as you wish:

Tom Brady is not the all time leader in yards....Drew Brees is.

Tom Brady is not the all time leader in TD passes....Drew Brees is.

Tom Brady has not appeared in or won the most Championship games:  Otto Graham did. (In half the number of years as TB)

Tom Brady has not...yet, taken two teams to win championships:  Peyton Manning did. 

Certainly your opinion is arguable...but it can be argued against, clearly.   Yet, that is impermissible here? 

 

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7 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Be careful what you ask for... lil Gippie...

 

As I've said before...

You don't know enough about the subject matter to talk football. It's at the heart of the gross insecurity you display here day after day after day....

There you go. ...Condescension.  I talk more football than anyone on this board.  Sorry you cannot keep up with my football discussions. Inferiority complex much? 

It's part of why you argue incessantly about crap... about nothing... about opinions. Here's a challenge for you... find me a single, opinion-based argument you've ever had here when you ended up where anyone came around to your view. Just one... I've never seen one... not with a Browns fan... a Steelers fan... anyone.

Well...this is what people do when they talk about football....they have opinions, sometimes they argue about opinions.   I am sure people have agreed with my opinions.  I am not obligated to comply with any directive of yours to find something. If it is a big deal to you...do it yourself. 

Add in the lawyering Nero cites and you have the toxic Gipper cocktail that we endure here day after day after...

No one says you have to endure it. Put yourself on hiatus again.  No one cares. The problem is ALL within your own brain.  I am not going to change because you get flustered.   We can have a good football discussion if you wish.  I do respect your opinions on football. Sure, you know shit that I don't.  You like to get into picayune details about offensive line techniques.  All fine, well and good. That bores me, but if it is what you like....go do it.  But you don't respect my opinions. And personally I don't give a shit if you do.  I am not going to discontinue having my opinions just because you don't share it. 

I honestly thought you'd made some kind of personal breakthrough when you allowed me my opinion in your post before I threw up the Louie clip. I even ignored this bit and its laughable pretzel logic...

I always allow you to have your opinion.  I couldn't prevent it anyway. (and I didn't bother to watch that clip, so I don't know what that is about)

You don't even allow for your "objective measure" to be a product of your opinion as well as Otto's status. Put another way your proof is a figment of your imagination.

Aren't FACTs  an objective measure? I certainly didn't make any of those up. 

Well here is my opinion... of all the means of evaluating a QB, his record is the worst.

So, in your opinion, winning does not matter?  An .855 career winning pct. doesn't matter?  Well, at least you are on the record with that.  You must love Hue Jackson as a coach!!:lol:

 

Then I had the audacity to ask two questions to try to build on the breakthrough. I guess this 2nd one was one too many...

But lesson learned.. no more outreach...

As I said before the all too brief cease fire... you're a post whore dealing in quantity since you can offer no quality.

Well...if you want to go there...you offer neither. There is an opinion.  I don't give a shit about post counts. 

Part of your dealing requires you not taking a minute to consider a post before replying to it. So you react to:

  • my 2nd question...
  • I don't remember what your "2d question"  really.  I didn't realize this was a test.
  • a misguided challenge to a comment our new return man is "Icecube sized"...
  • See what I mean about you being crazy stupid about the things I say.  I was just asking that poster...can't recall who it was, if he implying that  a player that size was too small, in his opinion.  He said no,  and I was OK with his clarification.  Yet, here you are...gripping over that brief repartee, which didn't even involve you. Jesus, get a life. 
  • and way too many more to enumerate.
  • Well, you seem to be keeping track apparently.  Maybe you should get a life. 

Hell your misreads and misstatements were the fodder for all my comments leading up to the cease-fire... and now they will be again.

Maybe if I misread someone's  comments,  or make a misstatement about something.... in the effort to have a football discussion with people on here,  which I am sure I probably do (the above being a minor example)....you could just let THAT person  clarify what they mean,  or maybe you could just  give a courteous "actually, X is the fact".......instead of feeling that you must insipidly interfere,  or holding some kind of grudge over a simple mistake of fact.....My God, it must be hard being green. 

 

Still too passive for your taste?

 It certainly brings on the ennui.   Too passive? Don't know.  I will Scarlett O'hara that and think about it tomorrow. 

 

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2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Not even. I went to the game on my birthday so I could say I saw Joe play. 😣 He was either hurt or benched head Pat Haden started the game what November 27th a number that was higher than the degrees outside. Browns quarterback was dr. Dave Mays who threw for zero touchdowns and the Rams won 3 field goals to zip.

WSS

Yes, that is the game we went to.....and froze our asses off....waiting for Joe Namath to play.   Oi!

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2 hours ago, Gorka said:

I remember Jim Brown wanting to make a comeback at 47, but for only one reason. Never was there a player who felt so threatened,  so consumed with the likelihood of another running back breaking his record.  That bothered the fuck out of him so much as to ask Al Davis if he could suit up in a Raiders uniform. The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harrison.

Here is a courteous correction, the way I remember it anyway :   Actually, when that happened,  Walter Payton had already passed JB for the rushing record.   It is true that JB did NOT want Franco to break his record, because he clearly did not respect the way Franco played the game.  His specific complaint was that he hated the way Franco would constantly  run out of bounds to avoid a hit.  JB rarely if ever did that.   He DID respect Walter for the way he played so tough, and he was more than complimentary and deferential to him when Walter broke his record.....but his flirtation with coming back to play for the Raiders happened after that.  I think he just thought that he could actually do it, and thought about it as a challenge to himself.  He did, after all, cut his career short after Modell was being an asshole about him getting into training camp in the middle of him doing a movie shoot.  (do you really think Jim Brown needed a full training camp to get ready to play football?  Modell did, apparently).  So, he called it quits early.  While he was making more money doing movies than playing football, I do suspect that JB, later thought that he left a lot on the table with his early retirement, so there were likely some regrets there.  It had nada to do with his record being broken....it had already been done. 

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2 hours ago, Gorka said:

I remember Jim Brown wanting to make a comeback at 47, but for only one reason. Never was there a player who felt so threatened,  so consumed with the likelihood of another running back breaking his record.  That bothered the fuck out of him so much as to ask Al Davis if he could suit up in a Raiders uniform. The player creeping up on JB's record was Franco Harrison.

Agree with you on Otto, but we part ways at JB. In his prime he was an unmatched physical specimen.  Had a six-pack before that was a thing. When he was still shy of 50 whenever I saw him I remember thinking, "JB could still play today." At the level he did in his prime? Hell, no, but at a level where he would not embarrass himself.

Ego? Sure... why not. Franco is the perfect example of an inferior athlete compared to JB... and, of course, it did not help that he was a Steeler. What did ultimately help is that Franco fell short in total yards.

The most compelling of all JB's stats IMO is rushing yards per game... only player to average over 100... and at 104.3 he eclipsed that mark by a comfortable margin.

 

How would JB in his prime stack up in today's game? I don't know, but I suspect that he'd be licking his chops at the prospect of facing nickel and dime packages. Somewhere the game and its players got to a level when the challenge likely out-sized him... but it wasn't in the 70's... or 80's.... or even the 90's...

Pluck him as he was in his prime and drop him into any of those decades and he'd have competed with the best. That's something I can't think is true of any other player of his era.

Later eras? More names come to mind... like Earl... but out of the 60's JB stands alone.

That's why he's my GOAT... and always will be.

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I guess it is too much to hope that Zombo will change Gip's screen-name to Scarlett... at least temporarily.

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46 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Here is a courteous correction, the way I remember it anyway :   Actually, when that happened,  Walter Payton had already passed JB for the rushing record.   It is true that JB did NOT want Franco to break his record, because he clearly did not respect the way Franco played the game.  His specific complaint was that he hated the way Franco would constantly  run out of bounds to avoid a hit.  JB rarely if ever did that.   He DID respect Walter for the way he played so tough, and he was more than complimentary and deferential to him when Walter broke his record.....but his flirtation with coming back to play for the Raiders happened after that.  I think he just thought that he could actually do it, and thought about it as a challenge to himself.  He did, after all, cut his career short after Modell was being an asshole about him getting into training camp in the middle of him doing a movie shoot.  (do you really think Jim Brown needed a full training camp to get ready to play football?  Modell did, apparently).  So, he called it quits early.  While he was making more money doing movies than playing football, I do suspect that JB, later thought that he left a lot on the table with his early retirement, so there were likely some regrets there.  It had nada to do with his record being broken....it had already been done. 

I don't think that is correct.

Walter Payton
On this day, October 7th, in 1984, Walter Payton gained his 12,313th rushing yard, breaking the record set by NFL great Jim Brown.
 
JB's talk of not letting Franco creep up on his record was in 1983.
 
Holy shit was JB butthurt over a running style.
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This ought to be good...

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7 minutes ago, Gorka said:

I don't think that is correct.

Walter Payton
On this day, October 7th, in 1984, Walter Payton gained his 12,313th rushing yard, breaking the record set by NFL great Jim Brown.
 
JB's talk of not letting Franco creep up on his record was in 1983.
 
Holy shit was JB butthurt over Francos  running style.

Well, Franco too was still active in  1983 and 1984....and also threatening to break the record.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrFr00.htm

Butthurt?  I don't know.  Again, he hated Franco's style of  ducking tackles and leaving yards on the field.   And since Franco and Walter were in a somewhat of a competition as to who broke the record....JB was clearly on Walter's side on that. 

I think also that maybe  he felt that Franco was just hanging on in an attempt to try to break the record. Franco was playing in his 13th season.

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Can't say he was wrong...

 

Who could see that coming?

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51 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well, Franco too was still active in  1983 and 1984....and also threatening to break the record.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrFr00.htm

 

 

Well gee, he would of had to of been active if he was threatening JB's record, no?

Now these are the types of bizarre responses from you that TOUR was taking about, all because you just cant stand being wrong and need to weasel a way out. Saying "you're right" or "I was wrong" doesn't hurt that bad. I've used them before.

The fact remains that in 1983 JB was butthurt over Francos threatening his record because he runs out of bounds and attempted to thwart it with a comeback.

The article I posted reflects exactly that, not once mentioning Walter Paytons name.

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19 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Can't say he was wrong...

 

Who could see that coming?

Color me surprised. 

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22 minutes ago, Gorka said:

Well gee he would of had to of been active if he was threatening JB's record, right?

Now these are the types of bizarre responses from you that TOUR was taking about, all because you just cant stand being wrong and need to weasel a way out. Saying "you're right" or "I was wrong" doesn't hurt that bad. I've said them before.

The fact remains that in 1983 JB was butthurt over Francos threatening his record because he runs out of bounds and attempted to thwart it with a comeback.

The article I posted reflects exactly that, not once mentioning Walter Payton name.

What is bizarre is your response.    Are you taking clues from Tour by having the inability to have a civil discussion? 

I don't care what that article says, I didn't bother to read it.  If it didn't mention Walter, so what?  That just means that that article didn't tell the whole story of that era.   But,  If it said that he hated the idea of Franco beating his record....that is true.  If it said that he contemplated making a comeback in order for that not to happen...that is probably true. 

I just know that  JB hated the idea of Franco breaking his record....but that he was just perfectly fine, and totally respectful of him to have Walter Payton break his record.  

His specific objection was to having Franco do it....not to the idea of the record being broken...by anyone. 

And I don't know, and I don't care if you were right or wrong abut that.   I just know that was the situation. 

But you seem to absolutely know what was in the heart and mind of Jim Brown.  I, on the other hand, can only go by what he said and did.  

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1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Agree with you on Otto, but we part ways at JB. In his prime he was an unmatched physical specimen.  Had a six-pack before that was a thing. When he was still shy of 50 whenever I saw him I remember thinking, "JB could still play today." At the level he did in his prime? Hell, no, but at a level where he would not embarrass himself.

Ego? Sure... why not. Franco is the perfect example of an inferior athlete compared to JB... and, of course, it did not help that he was a Steeler. What did ultimately help is that Franco fell short in total yards.

The most compelling of all JB's stats IMO is rushing yards per game... only player to average over 100... and at 104.3 he eclipsed that mark by a comfortable margin.

 

How would JB in his prime stack up in today's game? I don't know, but I suspect that he'd be licking his chops at the prospect of facing nickel and dime packages. Somewhere the game and its players got to a level when the challenge likely out-sized him... but it wasn't in the 70's... or 80's.... or even the 90's...

Pluck him as he was in his prime and drop him into any of those decades and he'd have competed with the best. That's something I can't think is true of any other player of his era.

Later eras? More names come to mind... like Earl... but out of the 60's JB stands alone.

That's why he's my GOAT... and always will be.

Exactly. And I don't know either, and neither does Gip. All that can be expressed here are opinions and speculation. It could never be proven. My opinion is that JB would be good back but not a HOF'er.

Look at Trent Richardson, a 230 lb physical specimen touted by some to be the next JB.  A "can't miss" in the draft turns out to be a bust.

His awards in college:

Put him in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Send TR back to the future NFL and he sucks again.

Send JB to the future NFL and I'd bet he'd suck too...ok not suck, just be not as good.

Again this is all speculation to which I form my opinion.

Gee wiz, with all the technology we have you'd think someone would come up with a working flux capacitor...the flux capacitor is what makes time travel possible ya know.

 

 

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On 3/17/2020 at 7:28 PM, WarriorsRpussies said:

Hope he packs a ton of sanitizer. With a bunch of old folks living there and idiotic spring breakers it's going to be bad there for awhile.

it's all those old folks passing gas that is killing the o zone

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4 hours ago, Gorka said:

Exactly. And I don't know either, and neither does Gip. All that can be expressed here are opinions and speculation. It could never be proven. My opinion is that JB would be good back but not a HOF'er.

Look at Trent Richardson, a 230 lb physical specimen touted by some to be the next JB.  A "can't miss" in the draft turns out to be a bust.

His awards in college:

Put him in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Send TR back to the future NFL and he sucks again.

Send JB to the future NFL and I'd bet he'd suck too...ok not suck, just be not as good.

Again this is all speculation to which I form my opinion.

Gee wiz, with all the technology we have you'd think someone would come up with a working flux capacitor...the flux capacitor is what makes time travel possible ya know.

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion.    I am entitled to declare that I believe it is a very poor, off base opinion.  

So, just to be clear:   The player many, many consider to be the greatest of all time....you say would be mediocre at best in this day and age.  

I will only say that there are some elements that are unmeasurable that you did not take into account:  Heart and desire.  TR  (and many others of similar build, and with similar credentials)  didn't have the heart and desire that Jim Brown had.  Few ever have.  Walter Payton....did.  Jerry Rice...and sure, dealing with today's players:  Tom Brady does. 

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5 hours ago, Gorka said:

Put (TR) in a time machine to 1960 on an NFL team, which by the way were inferior to todays top college teams,  and you don't think he'd tear up the league to the level of JB? You may not, but I certainly do.

Interesting point... never thought about today's players going back in time.

TR might actually have a shot at being good because there was no ZBS, but it is also true that holes were not always where they were supposed to be...and whenever that was the case TR was in trouble.

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On 3/20/2020 at 8:17 PM, Tour2ma said:

Interesting point... never thought about today's players going back in time.

TR might actually have a shot at being good because there was no ZBS, but it is also true that holes were not always where they were supposed to be...and whenever that was the case TR was in trouble.

TR was also battling nagging little injuries especially when he turned pro.

AND TR as an NFL rookie used to keep battling for that extra yard and was getting hit worse than he ever did in college.

And another small point about TR I think he just gave up.....or "follow the money".  It explains a lot in business and life the dude is a multimillionaire, why get beat up every week ?  :huh:

Estimated Career Earnings

YEAR TEAM SALARY SIGNING BONUS ROSTER BONUS WORKOUT BONUS RESTRUCTURE BONUS OPTION BONUS INCENTIVE TOTAL CASH
2012 Player Cash Earnings $390,000 $13,341,000 - - - - - $13,731,000
2013 Player Cash Earnings $1,321,354 - - - - - - $1,321,354
2014 Player Cash Earnings $2,252,708 - - - - - - $2,252,708
2015 Player Cash Earnings - - $600,000 $150,000 - - - $750,000
4 seasons $3,964,062 $13,341,000 $600,000 $150,000 - - - $18,055,062

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Humorous take on Tom's future...

Mike Bianchi: Tom Brady, welcome to Florida's quarterbacking graveyard

By Mike Bianchi, Orlando Sentinel
1 day ago

As excited as we all are about Tom Brady coming to Tampa Bay, isn’t there a part of you that doesn’t want to see the inevitably ugly ending?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/mike-bianchi-tom-brady-welcome-to-floridas-quarterbacking-graveyard/ar-BB11EMO3?ocid=spartandhp

 

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On 3/17/2020 at 10:04 AM, mjp28 said:

Almost nobody stays with one city and team for their entire career even the best ones finish up somewhere else.

well put...

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On 3/17/2020 at 9:57 PM, The Gipper said:

 

i think they are going to end up in 3rd place....buffalo with diggs, i think, will win the east...i'm picking them to anyway....and watch out for miami...they are better than what most people think.........

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On 3/20/2020 at 10:28 AM, The Gipper said:

 

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

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1 minute ago, Icecube said:

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

fuck him GO BROWNS

Baker to the SB

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9 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Brady has 6 rings, end of discussion. 9 appearances to SB, have you seen him play? Best ever. TB will make the playoffs. Watch. 

Otto has 7 rings....10 appearances in Championship games.  Statistically...best ever.   (.861 win pct....by far the best in history).

Have you seen Otto play? 

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