Most underrated Browns in modern era

[Icecube]

What about big, ole Sam Clancy? Eddie Johnson? Bahr?

[mjp28]

4 minutes ago, Icecube said:

What about big, ole Sam Clancy? Eddie Johnson? Bahr?

The great thing about being a diehard BROWNS fan, pick a bygone era and go back and start reminiscing.

[Icecube]

Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know. 

[mjp28]

27 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know. 

Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.

Yes they were exciting.

A closer look...... Games    W/L      Winning %

Quarterback	Games started	Wins	Losses	Ties	Winning pct.
Brian Sipe	112	57	55	0	.509
Bernie Kosar	105	53	51	1	.510
Frank Ryan	76	52	22	2	.697
Otto Graham	71	57	13	1	.810
Tim Couch	59	22	37	0	.373
Bill Nelsen	51	34	16	1	.676
Mike Phipps	51	24	25	2	.490
Milt Plum	51	33	16	2	.667
Derek Anderson	34	16	18	0	.471
Vinny Testaverde	31	16	15	0	.516
Baker Mayfield	29	12	17	0	.414

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.

Yes they were exciting.

A closer look...... Games    W/L      Winning %

Quarterback	Games started	Wins	Losses	Ties	Winning pct.
Brian Sipe	112	57	55	0	.509
Bernie Kosar	105	53	51	1	.510
Frank Ryan	76	52	22	2	.697
Otto Graham	71	57	13	1	.810
Tim Couch	59	22	37	0	.373
Bill Nelsen	51	34	16	1	.676
Mike Phipps	51	24	25	2	.490
Milt Plum	51	33	16	2	.667
Derek Anderson	34	16	18	0	.471
Vinny Testaverde	31	16	15	0	.516
Baker Mayfield	29	12	17	0	.414

Note.....the number you have for Otto Graham only includes the 6 years after the Browns joined the NFL. 

He started 43 other games for the Browns for the AAFC.  Not sure of his record in those games, ...but I do know that in 1948 he started 14 and won every single one of them. So that brings his win total to  61.  

In 1946  he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-2.   1947 he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-1-1.   In 1949 he started 11 of 12 for a team that went 9-1-2.   So, 29 more starts.   At MOST he could have lost 4 of those starts.  So, even if he did, he would have been  25-4....or 22-4-3.   Not sure why they don't specify. 

So he could have been:  57 + 14 + 25 =  96 wins,  or at least 93 wins.  And the most losses he could have had were  17 losses.  (and I bet that the other QB...Cliff Lewis, who started some Browns games was the QB for some of those 4 losses.).    

OGs WORST record then could have been :  93-17-4.  ...or an .845 win pct.     And it could have been a bit better.   Even up to about an .880 win pct. 

In fact...I am going to make QB win pct. the subject of my next trivia. 

Even more puzzling is:  Why would Paul Brown start a guy named Cliff Lewis for  5 games in 1946 and 1947...when he had Otts Freeking Graham playing QB for him?    (I am not certain that those were injury situations) 

[The Gipper]

Found this note:

Graham also started 53 games for the Cleveland Browns when they were in the All-America Football Conference (1946–1949). He finished his professional career (AAFC and NFL) with a 105–17–4 regular-season record (.861).

[darubes]

Milt Morin TE

Cody Reisen OT

[ATOM]

Greg Pruitt the king of the tear away jersey

[Richiswhere]

Big Daddy Carl Hairston  came over in his 30's and gave us many good years still

[Bob806]

5 hours ago, Icecube said:

Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know. 

Sipe was very good, real "cerebral" with his game. Rightfully won the MVP in 1980. The Kardiac Kids were his team, great nerve-racking games (Browns defense was basically bad in 79-80).

[mjp28]

Just to finish out the list the 13 BROWNS quarterbacks below Mayfield to 10 games started is listed below. The BROWNS also had an incredible 33 quarterbacks who had from 8 to 1 starts many in the 1999 plus era, explains a lot. There were 6 with 8 starts and 8 with only 1 start.

Paul McDonald	21	8	13	0	.381
Colt McCoy	21	6	15	0	.286
Brandon Weeden	20	5	15	0	.250
Charlie Frye	19	6	13	0	.316
Brian Hoyer	16	10	6	0	.625
DeShone Kizer	15	0	15	0	.000
Tommy O'Connell	14	10	3	1	.750
Kelly Holcomb	12	4	8	0	.333
Brady Quinn	12	3	9	0	.250
Jim Ninowski	11	5	6	0	.455
Trent Dilfer	11	4	7	0	.364
Josh McCown	11	1	10	0	.091
Jeff Garcia	10	3	7	0	.300

[Orion]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:39 AM, Bob806 said:

Kevin Johnson

That's the receiver we drafted with Couch, right?    He sucked.  IMO  - Jerry Rice wanted Kevin to work out with him and said he'd give him advice and pointers....and Johnson declined saying he didn't need his pointers.  - One time, on 3rd down, he went down and caught a low pass for 1st down yardage, and then proceeded to roll backwards so as to avoid a hit...by the time he got tagged down he had lost the 1st down, we had to punt, and Butch Davis took him out of the game and he never played again.  I'll never forget that play.  He musta' rolled backwards 2 or 3 yards.  I was like, "You fucin' coward!"  

Sorry to pick on that one Bob806.   I like your other choices though.

[Orion]

Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

Mike Jackson was pretty damn good. 6-4 and fast. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackMi00.htm

[Dutch Oven]

I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

[The Gipper]

59 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

Pretty much, yes. 

Or, maybe he was OK....but just not up to #1 overall status.

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

Right up there with Joe Charbenau.  But neat last names.

[The Gipper]

25 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Right up there with Joe Charbeneau.  But neat last names.

Neau they're not.      Nor is Burreau...or is that Burreaux.

[Tour2ma]

So the "modern era" started in the 30's???

18 hours ago, ATOM said:

Greg Pruitt the king of the tear away jersey

That would be Earl Campbell. Bonus in video below is the Isaiah Robertson collision.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000149543/Earl-Campbell-s-jersey-ripped-off

[Icecube]

19 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Just to finish out the list the 13 BROWNS quarterbacks below Mayfield to 10 games started is listed below. The BROWNS also had an incredible 33 quarterbacks who had from 8 to 1 starts many in the 1999 plus era, explains a lot. There were 6 with 8 starts and 8 with only 1 start.

Paul McDonald	21	8	13	0	.381
Colt McCoy	21	6	15	0	.286
Brandon Weeden	20	5	15	0	.250
Charlie Frye	19	6	13	0	.316
Brian Hoyer	16	10	6	0	.625
DeShone Kizer	15	0	15	0	.000
Tommy O'Connell	14	10	3	1	.750
Kelly Holcomb	12	4	8	0	.333
Brady Quinn	12	3	9	0	.250
Jim Ninowski	11	5	6	0	.455
Trent Dilfer	11	4	7	0	.364
Josh McCown	11	1	10	0	.091
Jeff Garcia	10	3	7	0	.300

That is one painful list to look at. 

[The Gipper]

15 minutes ago, Icecube said:

That is one painful list to look at. 

And it don't get any better after that.   Cody Kessler, not on that list:   0-8.   And others. 

[ATOM]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

So the "modern era" started in the 30's???

That would be Earl Campbell. Bonus in video below is the Isaiah Robertson collision.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000149543/Earl-Campbell-s-jersey-ripped-off

thanks for the earl video i still will never forget that MNF game vs miami 

But Greg was first with the tear away

[Icecube]

Derrick Alexander only here for 2 seasons, but he was underrated overall, in my opinion. 

[ATOM]

 

[SdBacker80]

21 hours ago, Orion said:

Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

Michael Dean Perry good one.  He had career with us  making it difficult on teams to run on us.

[SdBacker80]

Leroy Hoard.  Didn’t really standout in anything just steady and reliable 

[The Gipper]

Now we are just basically anyone that played.    Here by one account are the Top  100 productive players of the Browns since like 1960  (Career Avg. not calculated much before that date):

Approximate Value

 

 

Rk	Player	From	To	G	Pos	AV
1	Clay Matthews	1978	1993	232	ROLB	124
2	Jim Brown	1957	1965	118	FB	122
3	Dick Schafrath	1959	1971	176	LT	115
4	Gene Hickerson	1958	1973	202	RG	111
5	Joe Thomas	2007	2017	167	LT	106
6	Leroy Kelly	1964	1973	136	RB	102
7	Doug Dieken	1971	1984	203	LT	92
8	Brian Sipe	1974	1983	125	QB	88
9	Gary Collins	1962	1971	127	FL	87
10	Hanford Dixon	1981	1989	131	RCB	80
11	Jim Houston	1960	1972	177	LLB	80
12	Frank Ryan	1962	1968	84	QB	80
13	Walter Johnson	1965	1976	168	LDT	78
14	Michael Dean Perry	1988	1994	109	RDT	78
15	Greg Pruitt	1973	1981	118	RB	78
16	Cody Risien	1979	1989	146	RT	78
17	Clarence Scott	1971	1983	186	LCB	78
18	Ozzie Newsome	1978	1990	198	TE	77
19	Bernie Kosar	1985	1993	108	QB	75
20	Paul Warfield	1964	1977	97	WR	75
21	Frank Minnifield	1984	1992	122	LCB	71
22	Don Cockroft	1968	1980	188	K	69
23	Jerry Sherk	1970	1981	147	RDT	68
24	Thom Darden	1972	1981	128	FS	64
25	Mike Pruitt	1976	1984	124	FB	64
26	Robert Jackson	1975	1985	160	RG	63
27	Tom DeLeone	1974	1984	149	C	61
28	Bob Golic	1982	1988	97	NT	60
29	Ernie Green	1962	1968	89	HB	60
Rk	Player	From	To	G	Pos	AV
30	John Morrow	1960	1966	90	C	59
31	John Wooten	1959	1967	122	LG	59
32	Charlie Hall	1971	1980	146	LLB	58
33	Paul Wiggin	1957	1967	146	LDE	57
34	Mike Johnson	1986	1993	112	MLB	56
35	Milt Morin	1966	1975	129	TE	56
36	Chip Banks	1982	1986	73	LOLB	55
37	Dan Fike	1985	1992	112	RG	55
38	Bill Glass	1962	1968	94	RDE	54
39	Mike Baab	1982	1991	114	C	53
40	D'Qwell Jackson	2006	2013	97	RILB	53
41	Reggie Rucker	1975	1981	103	WR	53
42	Kevin Mack	1985	1993	99	FB	52
43	Bernie Parrish	1959	1966	94	LCB	52
44	Earnest Byner	1984	1995	99	RB	51
45	Vince Costello	1957	1966	130	MLB	51
46	Tony Jones	1988	1995	109	LT	50
47	Orpheus Roye	2000	2007	113	LDE	49
48	Paul Farren	1983	1991	132	LT	47
49	Dick Ambrose	1975	1983	116	MLB	46
50	Monte Clark	1963	1969	89	RT	46
51	Eric Metcalf	1989	1994	88	PR	46
52	Bill Nelsen	1968	1972	58	QB	46
53	Phil Dawson	1999	2012	215	K	45
54	John Demarie	1967	1975	123	LG	45
55	Joe Haden	2010	2016	90	DB	45
56	Alex Mack	2009	2015	101	C	45
57	Webster Slaughter	1986	1991	84	WR	45
58	Rob Burnett	1990	1995	93	LDE	44
59	Andra Davis	2002	2008	105	LILB	44
Rk	Player	From	To	G	Pos	AV
60	Ben Davis	1967	1973	75	RCB	44
61	Joe DeLamielleure	1980	1984	73	RG	44
62	Galen Fiss	1956	1966	139	LLB	44
63	Mike Howell	1965	1972	102	DB	43
64	Eddie Johnson	1981	1990	148	LILB	43
65	Dave Logan	1976	1983	115	WR	43
66	Ross Fichtner	1960	1967	102	LS	42
67	John Garlington	1968	1977	128	RLB	42
68	Carl Hairston	1984	1989	92	RDE	41
69	Fred Hoaglin	1966	1972	87	C	41
70	Ahtyba Rubin	2008	2014	99	NT	41
71	Bob Gain	1952	1964	126	LDT	40
72	Brian Brennan	1984	1991	117	WR	39
73	Jim Ray Smith	1956	1962	81	LG	39
74	Erich Barnes	1965	1971	85	LCB	38
75	Joel Bitonio	2014	2019	79	OT	38
76	Daylon McCutcheon	1999	2005	103	RCB	38
77	Eric Turner	1991	1995	63	FS	38
78	Anthony Pleasant	1990	1995	94	RDE	37
79	Walt Sumner	1969	1974	76	SS	37
80	Billy Andrews	1967	1974	100	RLB	36
81	Johnny Brewer	1961	1967	98	TE	36
82	Tom Cousineau	1982	1985	57	RILB	36
83	Dale Lindsey	1965	1972	106	MLB	36
84	Jim Kanicki	1963	1969	88	RDT	35
85	Mike Phipps	1970	1976	88	QB	35
86	Jack Gregory	1967	1979	86	RDE	33
87	Leroy Hoard	1990	1995	90	RB	33
88	Joe Jones	1970	1978	90	LDE	33
89	Dennis Northcutt	2000	2006	99	PR	33
Rk	Player	From	To	G	Pos	AV
90	Henry Sheppard	1976	1981	82	LG	33
91	Ron Bolton	1976	1982	90	LCB	32
92	Reggie Camp	1983	1987	70	LDE	32
93	Tim Couch	1999	2003	62	QB	32
94	Ernie Kellermann	1966	1971	81	LS	32
95	Reggie Langhorne	1985	1991	102	WR	32
96	Ryan Tucker	2002	2008	75	RT	32
97	Braylon Edwards	2005	2009	62	WR	31
98	Bobby Mitchell	1958	1961	50	FL	31
99	Jim Shofner	1958	1963	76	RCB	31
100	Bobby Franklin	1960	1966	86	RS

[The Gipper]

Here is another  advanced statistical way of looking at all that:    by  per game production points.   These are the Browns who had the highest  overall Career Production averages from above.     This could perhaps tell how well a player performed on a week to week basis.  Here they are in order:

Jim Brown:   1.03

Frank Ryan   .95    I think I nailed this one. 

Paul Warfield  .77

Leroy Kelly  .75

Michael Dean Perry  .72

Bernie Kosar  .70

Brian Sipe  .70

Gary Collins   .69

Ernie Green  .67    Clearly here is an "underrated" guy

John Morrow  .66

Greg Pruitt  .66

Dick Shafrath .65

Joe Thomas  .63

Bob Golic    .62    No one mentioned him

Hanford Dixon .61

Frank Minniefield   .58

Gene Hickerson  .55

Clay Matthews  .53

Cody Risien  .53

Mike Pruitt   .52 

Thom Darden   .50

Mike Johnson  .50

Walter Johnson   .46

Jerry Sherk  .46

Jim Houston  .45

Doug Dieken  .45

Milt Morin  .43

Clarence Scott .42

Tom DeLeone  .41

Charlie Hall .40

Ozzie Newsome   .39   !!

Paul Wiggin .39

Robert Jackson  .39

Don Cockroft   .37

 

 

[The Gipper]

Here are the per game production averages for any player any of you have mentioned above that was not on the previous list I posted.  In order of highest "value" per games.

Vinny Testaverde  .65

Tom Cousineau   .63     Maybe he wasn't the bust we thought?

Webster Slaughter   .54

Kevin Mack  .53

Ernest Byner   .52

Eric Metcalf  .52

Braylon Edwards   .50

Mike Baab   .46

Carl Hairston  .45

Andra Davis  .42

Kevin Johnson .41

Orlando Brown  .40

Derrick Alexander  .39

Michael Jackson  .38

Leroy Hoard  .37

Brian Brennan .33

Felix Wright  .32

John Greco  .31

Eddie Johnson  .29

Calvin Hill  .29

Sam Clancy   .25

Phil Dawson  .21

Josh Cribbs  .19

Matt Bahr  .17

Steve Heiden  .12

Gerald McNeil  .10

Lawrence Vickers   .02

Clearly the CA does not like special teamers and blocking backs. 

 

[Icecube]

23 hours ago, Orion said:

That's the receiver we drafted with Couch, right?    He sucked.  IMO  - Jerry Rice wanted Kevin to work out with him and said he'd give him advice and pointers....and Johnson declined saying he didn't need his pointers.  - One time, on 3rd down, he went down and caught a low pass for 1st down yardage, and then proceeded to roll backwards so as to avoid a hit...by the time he got tagged down he had lost the 1st down, we had to punt, and Butch Davis took him out of the game and he never played again.  I'll never forget that play.  He musta' rolled backwards 2 or 3 yards.  I was like, "You fucin' coward!"  

Sorry to pick on that one Bob806.   I like your other choices though.

I thought KJ was the only decent player taken that entire draft, from Cuse I think.