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Icecube

Most underrated Browns in modern era

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4 minutes ago, Icecube said:

What about big, ole Sam Clancy? Eddie Johnson? Bahr?

The great thing about being a diehard BROWNS fan, pick a bygone era and go back and start reminiscing.

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27 minutes ago, Icecube said:

Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know. 

Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.

Yes they were exciting.

A closer look...... Games    W/L      Winning %

Quarterback Games started Wins Losses Ties Winning pct.
Brian Sipe 112 57 55 0 .509
Bernie Kosar 105 53 51 1 .510
Frank Ryan 76 52 22 2 .697
Otto Graham 71 57 13 1 .810
Tim Couch 59 22 37 0 .373
Bill Nelsen 51 34 16 1 .676
Mike Phipps 51 24 25 2 .490
Milt Plum 51 33 16 2 .667
Derek Anderson 34 16 18 0 .471
Vinny Testaverde 31 16 15 0 .516
Baker Mayfield 29 12 17 0 .414

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3 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Total record not much different than Bernie just over .500 but was exciting to watch, Bernie had that one great year and a better overall team.

Yes they were exciting.

A closer look...... Games    W/L      Winning %

Quarterback Games started Wins Losses Ties Winning pct.
Brian Sipe 112 57 55 0 .509
Bernie Kosar 105 53 51 1 .510
Frank Ryan 76 52 22 2 .697
Otto Graham 71 57 13 1 .810
Tim Couch 59 22 37 0 .373
Bill Nelsen 51 34 16 1 .676
Mike Phipps 51 24 25 2 .490
Milt Plum 51 33 16 2 .667
Derek Anderson 34 16 18 0 .471
Vinny Testaverde 31 16 15 0 .516
Baker Mayfield 29 12 17 0 .414

Note.....the number you have for Otto Graham only includes the 6 years after the Browns joined the NFL. 

He started 43 other games for the Browns for the AAFC.  Not sure of his record in those games, ...but I do know that in 1948 he started 14 and won every single one of them. So that brings his win total to  61.  

In 1946  he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-2.   1947 he started 9 of 14 games for a team that went 12-1-1.   In 1949 he started 11 of 12 for a team that went 9-1-2.   So, 29 more starts.   At MOST he could have lost 4 of those starts.  So, even if he did, he would have been  25-4....or 22-4-3.   Not sure why they don't specify. 

So he could have been:  57 + 14 + 25 =  96 wins,  or at least 93 wins.  And the most losses he could have had were  17 losses.  (and I bet that the other QB...Cliff Lewis, who started some Browns games was the QB for some of those 4 losses.).    

OGs WORST record then could have been :  93-17-4.  ...or an .845 win pct.     And it could have been a bit better.   Even up to about an .880 win pct. 

In fact...I am going to make QB win pct. the subject of my next trivia. 

Even more puzzling is:  Why would Paul Brown start a guy named Cliff Lewis for  5 games in 1946 and 1947...when he had Otts Freeking Graham playing QB for him?    (I am not certain that those were injury situations) 

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Found this note:

Graham also started 53 games for the Cleveland Browns when they were in the All-America Football Conference (1946–1949). He finished his professional career (AAFC and NFL) with a 105–17–4 regular-season record (.861).

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Greg Pruitt the king of the tear away jersey

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5 hours ago, Icecube said:

Was Sipe very good? I'm a little young to know. 

Sipe was very good, real "cerebral" with his game. Rightfully won the MVP in 1980. The Kardiac Kids were his team, great nerve-racking games (Browns defense was basically bad in 79-80).

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Just to finish out the list the 13 BROWNS quarterbacks below Mayfield to 10 games started is listed below. The BROWNS also had an incredible 33 quarterbacks who had from 8 to 1 starts many in the 1999 plus era, explains a lot. There were 6 with 8 starts and 8 with only 1 start.

Paul McDonald 21 8 13 0 .381
Colt McCoy 21 6 15 0 .286
Brandon Weeden 20 5 15 0 .250
Charlie Frye 19 6 13 0 .316
Brian Hoyer 16 10 6 0 .625
DeShone Kizer 15 0 15 0 .000
Tommy O'Connell 14 10 3 1 .750
Kelly Holcomb 12 4 8 0 .333
Brady Quinn 12 3 9 0 .250
Jim Ninowski 11 5 6 0 .455
Trent Dilfer 11 4 7 0 .364
Josh McCown 11 1 10 0 .091
Jeff Garcia 10 3 7 0 .300

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On 3/12/2020 at 8:39 AM, Bob806 said:

Kevin Johnson

That's the receiver we drafted with Couch, right?    He sucked.  IMO  - Jerry Rice wanted Kevin to work out with him and said he'd give him advice and pointers....and Johnson declined saying he didn't need his pointers.  - One time, on 3rd down, he went down and caught a low pass for 1st down yardage, and then proceeded to roll backwards so as to avoid a hit...by the time he got tagged down he had lost the 1st down, we had to punt, and Butch Davis took him out of the game and he never played again.  I'll never forget that play.  He musta' rolled backwards 2 or 3 yards.  I was like, "You fucin' coward!"  

Sorry to pick on that one Bob806.   I like your other choices though.

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Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

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1 hour ago, Orion said:

Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

Mike Jackson was pretty damn good. 6-4 and fast. 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackMi00.htm

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I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

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59 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

Pretty much, yes. 

Or, maybe he was OK....but just not up to #1 overall status.

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3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I thought Tom Cousineau was a bust?

Right up there with Joe Charbenau.  But neat last names.

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25 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Right up there with Joe Charbeneau.  But neat last names.

Neau they're not.    :lol:  Nor is Burreau...or is that Burreaux.

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So the "modern era" started in the 30's???

18 hours ago, ATOM said:

Greg Pruitt the king of the tear away jersey

That would be Earl Campbell. Bonus in video below is the Isaiah Robertson collision.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000149543/Earl-Campbell-s-jersey-ripped-off

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19 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Just to finish out the list the 13 BROWNS quarterbacks below Mayfield to 10 games started is listed below. The BROWNS also had an incredible 33 quarterbacks who had from 8 to 1 starts many in the 1999 plus era, explains a lot. There were 6 with 8 starts and 8 with only 1 start.

Paul McDonald 21 8 13 0 .381
Colt McCoy 21 6 15 0 .286
Brandon Weeden 20 5 15 0 .250
Charlie Frye 19 6 13 0 .316
Brian Hoyer 16 10 6 0 .625
DeShone Kizer 15 0 15 0 .000
Tommy O'Connell 14 10 3 1 .750
Kelly Holcomb 12 4 8 0 .333
Brady Quinn 12 3 9 0 .250
Jim Ninowski 11 5 6 0 .455
Trent Dilfer 11 4 7 0 .364
Josh McCown 11 1 10 0 .091
Jeff Garcia 10 3 7 0 .300

That is one painful list to look at. 

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15 minutes ago, Icecube said:

That is one painful list to look at. 

And it don't get any better after that.   Cody Kessler, not on that list:   0-8.   And others. 

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

So the "modern era" started in the 30's???

That would be Earl Campbell. Bonus in video below is the Isaiah Robertson collision.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000149543/Earl-Campbell-s-jersey-ripped-off

thanks for the earl video i still will never forget that MNF game vs miami 

But Greg was first with the tear away

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21 hours ago, Orion said:

Mike Johnson was a really good LBer.  Tom Cousineau was good too.  And Eddie Johnson.

Chris Berman use to call him Kevin MMMMMMMMMack!  A really powerful runner who could catch.  

Webster Slaughter was supposed to block the guy that stripped the ball from Byner on The Fumble.   Instead, he stood there like a statue and WATCHED the play like he had a front row seat.  

Greg Pruitt was great....but Mike Pruitt was quite good...and a powerful runner.  I really liked him.

Steve Heiden was a pretty good TE.   Michael He-He Jackson was a pretty good receiver.  Michael Dean Perry was a good DLineman.  He got some credit, but maybe he deserved more.

Michael Dean Perry good one.  He had career with us  making it difficult on teams to run on us.

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Now we are just basically anyone that played.    Here by one account are the Top  100 productive players of the Browns since like 1960  (Career Avg. not calculated much before that date):

Approximate Value

 
 
       
Rk Player From To G Pos AV
1 Clay Matthews 1978 1993 232 ROLB 124
2 Jim Brown 1957 1965 118 FB 122
3 Dick Schafrath 1959 1971 176 LT 115
4 Gene Hickerson 1958 1973 202 RG 111
5 Joe Thomas 2007 2017 167 LT 106
6 Leroy Kelly 1964 1973 136 RB 102
7 Doug Dieken 1971 1984 203 LT 92
8 Brian Sipe 1974 1983 125 QB 88
9 Gary Collins 1962 1971 127 FL 87
10 Hanford Dixon 1981 1989 131 RCB 80
11 Jim Houston 1960 1972 177 LLB 80
12 Frank Ryan 1962 1968 84 QB 80
13 Walter Johnson 1965 1976 168 LDT 78
14 Michael Dean Perry 1988 1994 109 RDT 78
15 Greg Pruitt 1973 1981 118 RB 78
16 Cody Risien 1979 1989 146 RT 78
17 Clarence Scott 1971 1983 186 LCB 78
18 Ozzie Newsome 1978 1990 198 TE 77
19 Bernie Kosar 1985 1993 108 QB 75
20 Paul Warfield 1964 1977 97 WR 75
21 Frank Minnifield 1984 1992 122 LCB 71
22 Don Cockroft 1968 1980 188 K 69
23 Jerry Sherk 1970 1981 147 RDT 68
24 Thom Darden 1972 1981 128 FS 64
25 Mike Pruitt 1976 1984 124 FB 64
26 Robert Jackson 1975 1985 160 RG 63
27 Tom DeLeone 1974 1984 149 C 61
28 Bob Golic 1982 1988 97 NT 60
29 Ernie Green 1962 1968 89 HB 60
Rk Player From To G Pos AV
30 John Morrow 1960 1966 90 C 59
31 John Wooten 1959 1967 122 LG 59
32 Charlie Hall 1971 1980 146 LLB 58
33 Paul Wiggin 1957 1967 146 LDE 57
34 Mike Johnson 1986 1993 112 MLB 56
35 Milt Morin 1966 1975 129 TE 56
36 Chip Banks 1982 1986 73 LOLB 55
37 Dan Fike 1985 1992 112 RG 55
38 Bill Glass 1962 1968 94 RDE 54
39 Mike Baab 1982 1991 114 C 53
40 D'Qwell Jackson 2006 2013 97 RILB 53
41 Reggie Rucker 1975 1981 103 WR 53
42 Kevin Mack 1985 1993 99 FB 52
43 Bernie Parrish 1959 1966 94 LCB 52
44 Earnest Byner 1984 1995 99 RB 51
45 Vince Costello 1957 1966 130 MLB 51
46 Tony Jones 1988 1995 109 LT 50
47 Orpheus Roye 2000 2007 113 LDE 49
48 Paul Farren 1983 1991 132 LT 47
49 Dick Ambrose 1975 1983 116 MLB 46
50 Monte Clark 1963 1969 89 RT 46
51 Eric Metcalf 1989 1994 88 PR 46
52 Bill Nelsen 1968 1972 58 QB 46
53 Phil Dawson 1999 2012 215 K 45
54 John Demarie 1967 1975 123 LG 45
55 Joe Haden 2010 2016 90 DB 45
56 Alex Mack 2009 2015 101 C 45
57 Webster Slaughter 1986 1991 84 WR 45
58 Rob Burnett 1990 1995 93 LDE 44
59 Andra Davis 2002 2008 105 LILB 44
Rk Player From To G Pos AV
60 Ben Davis 1967 1973 75 RCB 44
61 Joe DeLamielleure 1980 1984 73 RG 44
62 Galen Fiss 1956 1966 139 LLB 44
63 Mike Howell 1965 1972 102 DB 43
64 Eddie Johnson 1981 1990 148 LILB 43
65 Dave Logan 1976 1983 115 WR 43
66 Ross Fichtner 1960 1967 102 LS 42
67 John Garlington 1968 1977 128 RLB 42
68 Carl Hairston 1984 1989 92 RDE 41
69 Fred Hoaglin 1966 1972 87 C 41
70 Ahtyba Rubin 2008 2014 99 NT 41
71 Bob Gain 1952 1964 126 LDT 40
72 Brian Brennan 1984 1991 117 WR 39
73 Jim Ray Smith 1956 1962 81 LG 39
74 Erich Barnes 1965 1971 85 LCB 38
75 Joel Bitonio 2014 2019 79 OT 38
76 Daylon McCutcheon 1999 2005 103 RCB 38
77 Eric Turner 1991 1995 63 FS 38
78 Anthony Pleasant 1990 1995 94 RDE 37
79 Walt Sumner 1969 1974 76 SS 37
80 Billy Andrews 1967 1974 100 RLB 36
81 Johnny Brewer 1961 1967 98 TE 36
82 Tom Cousineau 1982 1985 57 RILB 36
83 Dale Lindsey 1965 1972 106 MLB 36
84 Jim Kanicki 1963 1969 88 RDT 35
85 Mike Phipps 1970 1976 88 QB 35
86 Jack Gregory 1967 1979 86 RDE 33
87 Leroy Hoard 1990 1995 90 RB 33
88 Joe Jones 1970 1978 90 LDE 33
89 Dennis Northcutt 2000 2006 99 PR 33
Rk Player From To G Pos AV
90 Henry Sheppard 1976 1981 82 LG 33
91 Ron Bolton 1976 1982 90 LCB 32
92 Reggie Camp 1983 1987 70 LDE 32
93 Tim Couch 1999 2003 62 QB 32
94 Ernie Kellermann 1966 1971 81 LS 32
95 Reggie Langhorne 1985 1991 102 WR 32
96 Ryan Tucker 2002 2008 75 RT 32
97 Braylon Edwards 2005 2009 62 WR 31
98 Bobby Mitchell 1958 1961 50 FL 31
99 Jim Shofner 1958 1963 76 RCB 31
100 Bobby Franklin 1960 1966 86 RS

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Here is another  advanced statistical way of looking at all that:    by  per game production points.   These are the Browns who had the highest  overall Career Production averages from above.     This could perhaps tell how well a player performed on a week to week basis.  Here they are in order:

Jim Brown:   1.03

Frank Ryan   .95    I think I nailed this one. 

Paul Warfield  .77

Leroy Kelly  .75

Michael Dean Perry  .72

Bernie Kosar  .70

Brian Sipe  .70

Gary Collins   .69

Ernie Green  .67    Clearly here is an "underrated" guy

John Morrow  .66

Greg Pruitt  .66

Dick Shafrath .65

Joe Thomas  .63

Bob Golic    .62    No one mentioned him

Hanford Dixon .61

Frank Minniefield   .58

Gene Hickerson  .55

Clay Matthews  .53

Cody Risien  .53

Mike Pruitt   .52 

Thom Darden   .50

Mike Johnson  .50

Walter Johnson   .46

Jerry Sherk  .46

Jim Houston  .45

Doug Dieken  .45

Milt Morin  .43

Clarence Scott .42

Tom DeLeone  .41

Charlie Hall .40

Ozzie Newsome   .39   !!

Paul Wiggin .39

Robert Jackson  .39

Don Cockroft   .37

 

 

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Here are the per game production averages for any player any of you have mentioned above that was not on the previous list I posted.  In order of highest "value" per games.

Vinny Testaverde  .65

Tom Cousineau   .63     Maybe he wasn't the bust we thought?

Webster Slaughter   .54

Kevin Mack  .53

Ernest Byner   .52

Eric Metcalf  .52

Braylon Edwards   .50

Mike Baab   .46

Carl Hairston  .45

Andra Davis  .42

Kevin Johnson .41

Orlando Brown  .40

Derrick Alexander  .39

Michael Jackson  .38

Leroy Hoard  .37

Brian Brennan .33

Felix Wright  .32

John Greco  .31

Eddie Johnson  .29

Calvin Hill  .29

Sam Clancy   .25

Phil Dawson  .21

Josh Cribbs  .19

Matt Bahr  .17

Steve Heiden  .12

Gerald McNeil  .10

Lawrence Vickers   .02

Clearly the CA does not like special teamers and blocking backs. 

 

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23 hours ago, Orion said:

That's the receiver we drafted with Couch, right?    He sucked.  IMO  - Jerry Rice wanted Kevin to work out with him and said he'd give him advice and pointers....and Johnson declined saying he didn't need his pointers.  - One time, on 3rd down, he went down and caught a low pass for 1st down yardage, and then proceeded to roll backwards so as to avoid a hit...by the time he got tagged down he had lost the 1st down, we had to punt, and Butch Davis took him out of the game and he never played again.  I'll never forget that play.  He musta' rolled backwards 2 or 3 yards.  I was like, "You fucin' coward!"  

Sorry to pick on that one Bob806.   I like your other choices though.

I thought KJ was the only decent player taken that entire draft, from Cuse I think. 

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