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TypicalBrowns50

Browns to let Schobert walk

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14 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Just a note though on this:    When Ozzie and Clay played, there was no free agency in the NFL.  That didn't basically come in until the early 90s (and at that point, Clay did go play for the Falcons......but I don't know if it was as a FA.  Maybe BB thought he had diminished skills and just got rid of him)

I did say albeit a different era.  Take a look at how old Clay was in the 90s when this happened as well as BB's first comments about Clay when he arrived.  We drafted Clay in 78 when he was 22 so 12-14 years later puts him between 34 and 36 years old.  He was 32 or 33 years old when he intercepted Jim Kelly at the 2 yard line to preserve the win over Buffalo in the playoffs.   He stuck around and played at a high level a lot longer than Chip Banks ever did. 

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Wait... What? Loved"the rant", but then you took it too far.

Have you compared our OL when Mitch was last here to those he's manned in KC? 

Here's ours... see if you can come close...

Thomas (LT) - Bito (LG) - Mack (C) - Greco (RG) - Schwartz (RT)

On the line - you have a great point. 

My bad on not clarifying the people I meant surrounding Schwartz. I was thinking of who KC has lined up at QB vrs who Cleveland lined up at QB while Schwartz was here.  Alex Smith (former #1 overall QB) and Patrick Mahomes (who is as elite at the position as it gets). Any contest?

They also had a rookie RB that was offensive Rookie of the Year in the AFC we never blessed Schwartz with here.  We had committees Kyle S made the best of.

They have TE Kelce that keeps drives alive, scores TD and made 5 Pro Bowls. Although Gary Barnidge made a Pro Bowl cameo for us in 2015 the last year Schwartz was here. 

And they have a WR on the perimeter that helps put points on the board while he has also made the Pro Bowl on STs. 

They also have a 1st round pick at LT that was treated to way better QBing than Joe Thomas ever received here.   That's a shame IMO. The last year Joe played we went 1-15 reminding Mack and Schwartz they were smart to depart. Joe's reward the next year?  IR and watching 0-16 football followed by retirement.

Does it sound tough to leave Cleveland at the time Schwartz did for offensive body by Andy Reid?    Mack chose to go back to offensive body by Kyle S and played with enough talent to appear in a Superbowl.  His choice wasn't any tougher than Schwartz's.  They went where they got rewarded better for their efforts on the scoreboard. Right after Mack and Schwartz left - Cleveland went 1-31 in 2016 through 2017 (while listening to the masses announce we were tanking). This is the stuff I had in mind with my comments and I think you'll agree with a lot of it.

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5 hours ago, Flugel said:

Played in a Pro Bowl 1 year and led the NFL in tackles another year.  That said, some people only want to remember him for the year he played with a bad hammy and missed a lot of tackles. PFF doesn't explain that nor should they have to.   A lot of the same guys fussed about Jamie Collins when he wasn't nearly 100% coming off a major injury. BB snagged him immediately; and word out of NE is he was performing like a defensive MVP the first half of the 2019 season. When you surround guys like this with better players - they play better.  Make sense?  It should...

Once upon a time, sucking it up and playing injured was a honorable trait. This is especially so on teams with depleted depth at the position the guy plays. 

Here's a concept that seems like a lifetime ago in Cleveland.  When you spend a few years to develop a player to the extent he makes a Pro Bowl 1 year and leads the NFL in tackles another year - you've already committed yourself. Consequently, you reward yourself by keeping him while rewarding the player for meeting/exceeding the expectation. For example, an undrafted LT like Tony/T-Bone Jones.  Instead of locking Schobert up - Dorsey's ego didn't draft him so he's headed for the open market auction that will pay him a higher salary than we could have extended him for a few months ago IMO.  Meanwhile, we've created an opening we didn't need for the growing pains of another unknown we'll get rid of as soon as we learn he's what we wanted.  Then we wonder why we have so much turnover while we look to too many learning curves explaining our record again.  This game counts on chemistry, continuity and leadership.  I don't know about anyone else; but I would have rather had us looking to fill only 2 LBer spots to go with both OT spots, both safety spots, 1 dual purpose TE, DL and OL depth.  This draft also has some damn good WRs that could help us for less cake than we're paying OBJ, who may or may not want to be here this time around. 

Best examples of continuity albeit a different era.  In 78 we drafted Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome in the first round.  Both guys exemplified leadership, continuity and excellence at their positions while giving us long careers.  Throughout their tenure, we reached the playoffs with 2 different QBs/3 different HCs in the 80s more than any other decade in my lifetime as a fan.  According to Pro Bowl vet Guard Joe D, Clay played all 4 different LBer positions better than injured starter (except for the position he was projected to play for obvious reasons). He was the leader by example for so many playoff teams we had in the 80s. He had a much better football career at his position than Joe Namath had at his position.  Don't believe me?  Post Namath's career stats and we'll chat.  He was just a better looking Trent Dilfer that won a Superbowl for the large market in NY (while he also had a much better SB than Dilfer).  Ozzie was asked to become a TE here; and he had a HOF career at the position for 2 different productive QBs that counted his experience, leadership and reliability.   The next HC/Management didn't come along and say "I didn't draft either guy so we're not wasting more money $ on their asss moving forward..."   We've only allowed Joe Thomas that type of tenure and he earned Pro Bowl honors every year to perpetuate it. Nobody on defense and only Bitonio have come close to starting as many games here as Joe Thomas. 

Sorry for the rant - I just couldn't hold that stuff hostage.

I agree but this new NFL with a salary cap basically forces teams to make these decisions all the time. 

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I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.

The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could  - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".

But they haven't.   

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14 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I'll scratch my head if Kirksey stays on roster but not Schob.

Gip said it- Moneyball Deja Vu. they keep Chris and he gets hurt again- it won't look good. 

18 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

I agree but this new NFL with a salary cap basically forces teams to make these decisions all the time. 

This shouldn't have been a tough decision. The Browns have the 11th most cap room. Only makes sense if they're saving cap space when the big bills for Garrett and Mayfield come due.... There's teams spending twice as much (Steelers) at LB than the Browns.  

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Just now, Dutch Oven said:

I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.

The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could  - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".

But they haven't.   

Why wouldn't Dorsey have made an effort to extend his contract during the 2019 season for less $ than being 3-4 weeks out from what the open market in FA will offer him?  It's going to cost a lot more now than it would have if this franchise extended some sense of thank you when it should have been.  It's now another need...

 

 

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14 hours ago, The Gipper said:

 Moneyball. Try to get cheap players that they think will be as good as the guys they have that they would have to pay bigger money to  like Schobert and Vernon.

The real question is can you really get those guys for the cheaper price?    Is Taki Taki going to replace Schobert, or is that going to be Mack Wilson's role?

If they let Schobert walk then as far as I’m concerned that position may be as big of a priority As offensive tackle in the draft or in Free Agency. 

Fair to say?

my thoughts exactly freeing up money for the o-line 

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3 hours ago, Flugel said:

I busted your chops because I enjoy the way you always keep a sense of humor about you.  I agree with some of what you said.  However, Schobert led the NFL in tackles on a scheme that only used 2 LBers; so are we holding both DTs just as accountable?  Dorsey paid 1 them (Richardson) enough cake where the big feller said "I want me some Cleveland."  We improved somewhat at stopping the run inside in 2019 - at least before we lost MG the last 6 weeks. When we lost that clamp, we asked a lot of just 2 LBers IMO.

This isn't aimed at you - I'm just using this reply to get some of this out.  The goal of a FO should be to reduce the openings to fill - not increase them.  Dorsey gave us Kong Shlong right up the dumpster without the vaseline.  Back to back years we lost 2 LTs to jail/prison.  Kareem Hunt is a Josh Gordon in training; but he's very fortunate the cops that keep finding him with the wrong company are huge Cleveland fans.  We also wasted a draft pick on Gator Done at WR.  His hand picked choice of Safety Dumbass Randall showed up to practice with bruises and scratches on his face (after a night out during the week) before he got scratched for a start and placed concussion protocol. We gave up a 17th pick overall for another WR that spent the 2nd half of last season asking opponents to get him out of Cleveland.  Some people only want to blame analytics; while it would have been nice to have some type of analysis on what are the types that respond to adversity and who are the types you can't trust. Dorsey inherited a TON of picks and a ton of money and it seemed like he only wanted to trade away picks and players to bring in people from other teams. 

Not to mention, whoever the freak saw film of Ticky Tacky's tackling with his fingers and arms only thinking he's gotta have. There wasn't 1 keeper Dorsey and GB sidekicks found in the draft on the OL, inclusive of the very first pick of round 2.  And what the hail was up with Cleveland bringing in so many Miami Hurricanes via trade trade and draft during the Dorsey & Sidekicks tenure?  Am I missing something or are they off by a couple decades with the time to go all in in Miami Hurricanes.  Oppps, I didn't blame analytics - did I?  Highsmith went to the U so nobody questioned all the knuckleheads we brought in from there that haven't been worth ball sweat.

The 1 thing he got right was Baker Mayfield, who has a bigger belly than Santa Claus today.  There are some fannies that need to be lit and there are some that needed to be out of here.  The 1 example of if you bust your tail and keep your head on straight on and off the field (Schobert) seems like the 1 guy even are fans are saying "don't let the door hit you in the asss on the way out."  I couldn't get where they are coming from if I tried...

There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough. 

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14 hours ago, Icecube said:

There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough. 

We fielded 2 LBers in 2019 for God sakes and you want me to pretend he had the setup of Ray Lewis and Bobby Wagner?   1 year we had Peppers lining up in Toronto so Schobert had both inside hook zones that often extended as deep as the goal line so let's not pretend we gave him the Ravens' or Seattle's environment. Ray Lewis had Ed Reed at Safety and Rod Woodson before that(those guys are HOF players). Seattle had a Pro Bowl Safety as well. The Rats also usually had a Pro Bowl guy in front of him like Ngata, or they had Sam Adams and Tony Sirgusa keeping bodies off him upfront.  We've never given Schobert any such surroundings. BTW, he was an OLB up until Gregg Williams arrived and kicked him inside. For a walk on at Wisconsin to become Big 10 Defensive Player of the Year before joining us; then changing positions and making a Pro Bowl before he later lead the NFL in Tackles is a better reflection of him than popular opinion in here seems to think.  Don't read what your buddies are typing - put a little Joe Friday into this guy.  Then tell me why you think I'm overrating him.

Again, Dorsey had an opportunity to extend his contract for far less $ than that throughout last season but Dorsey didn't draft him so the ego of Dorsey gave him 2 middle fingers about the possibility of him staying here. What time today did they change $10 million to $15 million or is this more of that Colin Cowherd-level research you like?   If I was Joe Schobert and I met/exceeded the expectations of the team that drafted and developed me - I'd be surprised they would want to add my position to the 2 other openings they have created at LB.  If it got to March, I'd get the message I might as well benefit a team that didn't invest time to train/develop me - which wouldn't suck if there was a Pro Bowl NT or 2 good DTs in front of me for the very first time of my career. 

I'm glad needing 3 new starting LBers is way more popular than needing 2 new starting LBers on a team that also needs 2 new starters at OT and 2 new starters at Safety.  I'm freakin pumped!  We can easily afford to let a guy go that led the NFL in tackles 1 season and made a Pro Bowl another.  All this time I thought we had money to spend.  Why keep continuity, experience and leadership when saving $ has worked so well here since 1999?  We're REAL GOOD at drafting LBers and I see 3 brand new openings for starters to prove this.  It's why we always win in the AFC North...

 

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2 hours ago, Flugel said:

 

Why wouldn't Dorsey have made an effort to extend his contract during the 2019 season for less $ than being 3-4 weeks out from what the open market in FA will offer him?  It's going to cost a lot more now than it would have if this franchise extended some sense of thank you when it should have been.  It's now another need...

 

 

That is true, Dorsey could have tried to sign him.

But because he didn't doesn't mean the Browns current front office couldn't have. I don't get the impression they even tried, even though they had time before free agency started.

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2 hours ago, Icecube said:

There just aren't many ILBs good enough to command top $ like $15 million. I mean, Scho is good but not out there making loads of difference-maker or splash plays. I think that's why fans are like "Whatever, get the F out." It's not like he's a Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Ryan Shazier, Jr Seau, Bobby Wagner or even Devin Bush. If they allow the ILB and S units to become depleted, it could spell trouble. Some feel Mack is not consistent enough. 

I would not put Shazier and Bush in that company....and not because they are Steelers, but because they did not (Shazier) and have not (Bush)  had a sufficiently long career to have proven to be in that company.  Lewis/Urlacher/Seau are in the HOF, Wagner could very well be.   Bush...someday? Maybe.  Way too soon. 

Though, I will say this:   for whatever reason, the Browns have never had one of THOSE MLB.    The best the Browns have had likely are in this group:

Mike Johnson

Vince Costello

Dick Ambrose

No HOF guys, not even going back to 40s/50s dynasty days. 

We had Pepper Johnson and Mike Lucci...but only for cups of coffee. 

It would be nice to have one.

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3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.

The current front office is pretty much the guys who drafted Schobert. If they wanted to keep him, DePodesta and Berry could  - or still can - have called him up and said: "We are the people who drafted you, we believed in you then, we believe in you now, and here's a contract offer in line with the going rate for starting MLBs. The previous front office might have been prepared to let you walk, but we are not".

But they haven't.   

Because it fits the agenda of some people to pretend that John Dorsey was the problem and not that f*cking idiot Jimmy Haslam.

WSS

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1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

I would not put Shazier and Bush in that company....and not because they are Steelers, but because they did not (Shazier) and have not (Bush)  had a sufficiently long career to have proven to be in that company.  Lewis/Urlacher/Seau are in the HOF, Wagner could very well be.   Bush...someday? Maybe.  Way too soon. 

Though, I will say this:   for whatever reason, the Browns have never had one of THOSE MLB.    The best the Browns have had likely are in this group:

Mike Johnson

Vince Costello

Dick Ambrose

No HOF guys, not even going back to 40s/50s dynasty days. 

We had Pepper Johnson and Mike Lucci...but only for cups of coffee. 

It would be nice to have one.

You are forgetting Tom Cousineau, the original one million $ man. It feels like he was one of the original Browns busts. Sure, since they have used a 1st round picks on players like Corey Coleman, Justin Gilbert, Mingo, Trent Richardson, Weedon, Phil Taylor, Winslow Jr., Willie Greene, Warren, Courtney Brown, Couch, Craig Powell, Tommy Vardell and the like, but Tom Cousineau seemed like the beginning of horrid 1st round picks (although there was a stretch in the late 80's-early 90's that wasn't bad).

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6 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I don't quite understand why John Dorsey is getting shit for Schobert walking.

 

Because he is gone, so blame him for everything and believe it's all better now. 

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I’ll be bummed to see Schobert go. Good guy, good worker. Can’t fault him for maximizing funds at this juncture in his life. He’s earned it. Good luck Joe.

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1 hour ago, Icecube said:

You are forgetting Tom Cousineau, the original one million $ man. It feels like he was one of the original Browns busts. Sure, since they have used a 1st round picks on players like Corey Coleman, Justin Gilbert, Mingo, Trent Richardson, Weedon, Phil Taylor, Winslow Jr., Willie Greene, Warren, Courtney Brown, Couch, Craig Powell, Tommy Vardell and the like, but Tom Cousineau seemed like the beginning of horrid 1st round picks (although there was a stretch in the late 80's-early 90's that wasn't bad).

I said that the ones I listed are the best MLBs we have had.   I didn't forget Cousineau in not listing him.

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2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I said that the ones I listed are the best MLBs we have had.   I didn't forget Cousineau in not listing him.

He was pretty bad, IIRC. Pro football reference didn't list tackles, but he had like 4.5 sacks in almost 4 full years.  

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2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I said that the ones I listed are the best MLBs we have had.   I didn't forget Cousineau in not listing him.

I was kidding, Tom was a bust. Made big buzz when he came to da Land, but never did crap. All Hype. And I never mean to imply Shazier or Bush were in the class of the other HOF ILBs mentioned. I just meant they had more pop than Scho. 

 

7 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

Because it fits the agenda of some people to pretend that John Dorsey was the problem and not that f*cking idiot Jimmy Haslam.

WSS

I think Dosey did pretty well, has his flaws. He seems to care about character a tad too little. But I'd hire him, as long as someone above can tap down on the thug ratio. Dorsey was a small problem, Mr. Jimmy is another story.  

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Article picked one rostered player, Taki, one draft prospect, Bachie (?), and one really good choice...

Quote

Cleveland Browns: 3 Replacement candidates for Joe Schobert

No. 3: Nick Kwiatkoski, Free Agent

Free-agent Nick Kwiatkoski from the Chicago Bears would be an intriguing option for the Browns. Kwiatkoski filled in at inside linebacker for  Danny Trevathan last season and shined in the starting role. He finished the season with 76 tackles and three sacks while playing really well against the run.

The question would be is what will Kwiatkoski command in the open market? The 26 year-old is entering the prime of his NFL career however he only has started the final seven games from a season ago.

He could be a cheaper version of Schobert, who is reportedly asking for north of $10 million per season. If the Browns find his price to be more reasonable, Kwiatkosi makes a ton of sense for Cleveland when free agency opens in a couple of weeks.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2020/03/01/cleveland-browns-3-replacement-candidates-joe-schobert/

I really liked Nick coming out of WVU. He wouldn't equal Joe in pass D, but would more than make up for it vs the run. Kid can thump.

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Whoever the replacement might be I just don't want to spend the same money on a new guy as it would have cost us to keep Joe. Lack of continuity is going to kill us again.

WSS

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12 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I would not put Shazier and Bush in that company....and not because they are Steelers, but because they did not (Shazier) and have not (Bush)  had a sufficiently long career to have proven to be in that company.  Lewis/Urlacher/Seau are in the HOF, Wagner could very well be.   Bush...someday? Maybe.  Way too soon. 

Though, I will say this:   for whatever reason, the Browns have never had one of THOSE MLB.    The best the Browns have had likely are in this group:

Mike Johnson

Vince Costello

Dick Ambrose

No HOF guys, not even going back to 40s/50s dynasty days. 

We had Pepper Johnson and Mike Lucci...but only for cups of coffee. 

It would be nice to have one.

Let's get back to the current subject within the current era.

Ice Cube is telling me we're too poor for today's market to keep a LBer capable of leading the NFL in tackles 1 year and making a Pro Bowl another.  And why? Because he doesn't have Haloti Ngata in front of him and Ed Reed/Rod Woodson behind him to deserve what today's market will pay him to play for an organization that did NOT develop him .   We're too poor but the Rats had a Superbowl lineup they never had any cap issues with. 

Not only that, all that time we were allegedly tanking and acquiring more picks - we suddenly only have 7 draft picks, crying poor and have more openings to fill than last year.  Make sense?  It shouldn't...

 

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10 hours ago, Icecube said:

Because he is gone, so blame him for everything and believe it's all better now. 

Who in here is announcing things are better now?  We have way more openings today than we had last year at this time. Are you following this team or are you still waiting for your idol Colin Cowherd to tell you what to think?

I think it's adorable you took inventory of popular opinion about Schobert and catered to it or was that Cowherd reminding you he's not Ray Lewis?  As for your Dorsey comment, I seem to remember 1 poster in here that was nervous and questioning a lot of things the leadership was doing last year. He even borrowed your screen name every time he did it.

 

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7 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I really liked Nick coming out of WVU. He wouldn't equal Joe in pass D, but would more than make up for it vs the run. Kid can thump.

most bears boards say Nick K-whack-ski ain't going anywhere.. the older Danny Trevathan will be the LB hitting the highway.. looks like Danny T, did not play with Woods at Denver either..

I can't see Queen or Kenneth Murray getting to #41 so I checked out your Mocked guy finalist Willie Gay jr... He had a clean combine & his few tapes looks good against the run...Till i got to the RED Flags... A Did you know?  Willie 'ain't' Gay jr.--- whackmoled his starting QB in the Jaw breaking his Orbital Bone... 🧐🧔Yikes!! 🤓

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Having watching Taki take snaps in camp last year, I can promise anyone suggesting he was pushing Schob for his spot is either completely clueless if not outright being dishonest.

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Joe's a team leader with great work ethic, and a great guy.

Yeah, Dorsey fumbled it, but cmon bro, get it done and keep him. He's worth it.

We can't keep making pro bowl players and then give them away to other teams.

Most importantly, Joe LOVES Cleveland and wants to be here.

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Back to the LB topic at hand..

If they're letting Schotime walk, they should clean contracts and cut Arm-Tacklesey as well.. Taki and Wilson aren't as good as where they were drafted, but it's true that we need the cap to sign free agents at more than one other position [OT, S].  To be clear: The question is if Scho and Kirk can OUTperform guys with similar contracts on other teams, because neither one of them is ever going to be mistaken for greatness.  If they don't think the value-for-performance is there, I don't blame FO for making that decision.. one bit.  Yes, our performance will suffer -- but I'd bet it would suffer with them here as well.. so let's go with the cheap option.

If Scho was willing to give us a home-team discount to 7, I'd go for it -- but I didn't see them even reach out.

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3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

The Browns may not be the only team to allow a seemingly important part of their defense let walk.

The high speculation is that Bud Dupree will not be returning to Pittsburgh:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/02/19/report-bud-dupree-leaving-caa-ahead-of-free-agency/

Mainly because the Steelers are in cap hell. Franchise tag? With the least cap room  of any  team? I don't  see how.  

But he's  going to  want a  ton of  money  as a UFA.

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3 hours ago, hoorta said:

Mainly because the Steelers are in cap hell. Franchise tag? With the least cap room  of any  team? I don't  see how.  

But he's  going to  want a  ton of  money  as a UFA.

I think I may have heard that they are thinking of putting the franchise tag on him.  

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9 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

I think I may have heard that they are thinking of putting the franchise tag on him.  

Already said it Gipper, you're not paying attention.  Take a look at the link- waaayyyy down there at the bottom, you have the Pittsburgh Steelers with negative cap room. They're going to have to get real creative, or dump a lot of salary to get under the cap. Franchise tag for a linebacker was $15 million last year. They can think about franchising him- now who they going to cut to do so?   

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

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