Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Did you not get the memo on immature name-calling, Tour? 😉

The original post is still standing, apparently that stand is on a case-by-case situation. 

Hardly name calling Dutch. Tour was expressing his personal  opinion (which happens to be  different) than yours.  There's  ways to disagree without resorting to  calling  someone a racist  bigot. 

Your feelings  hurt because I'm tired of you and Gorka calling  each other names? FWIW,  I wound up wasting a lot of time deleting what amounted to roughly  30% of the Garrett thread that was just off topic personal insult  bullshit.  

[SdBacker80]

13 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I think it's a pipe dream too...

Someday the Browns will be playing in a retractable dome. I have a feeling if the Haslams are around for the long term, they'll demand an upgrade.

I still think the next ballpark the Indians play in won't be in Cleveland. 

The Jake... Prog...has at least 20-25 years left.
 

it will be interesting in that time it could very well be a early-mid 90s type scenario again.  Browns and Indians looking for new Stadiums.  Absolutely nothing wrong with First energy it is as modern as any stadium out there. 

[Dutch Oven]

30 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

The Jake... Prog...has at least 20-25 years left.
 

it will be interesting in that time it could very well be a early-mid 90s type scenario again.  Browns and Indians looking for new Stadiums.  Absolutely nothing wrong with First energy it is as modern as any stadium out there. 

Team's leases end well before that time.

We'll see how many years the Browns and Indians want to stay where they are, regardless of how many years we all think the stadiums have. If the Dolans sell the Indians, I'd almost guarantee the new owners will start clamoring for a new stadium, the same way the Haslams are slowly hinting that they want an upgrade over First Energy. 

[hoorta]

4 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

The Jake... Prog...has at least 20-25 years left.
 

it will be interesting in that time it could very well be a early-mid 90s type scenario again.  Browns and Indians looking for new Stadiums.  Absolutely nothing wrong with First energy it is as modern as any stadium out there. 

I'll  add my two cents about  First Energy  here. 

First about  putting a  dome on it. Can't  and won't  happen. Structurally  wasn't  built for one. Putting a  bubble  over it has already  been  suggested.  Retrofitting  it with the requisite HVAC would be a  nightmare.  If you want a  dome, more  efficient to start from  scratch,  and the going  rate seems to be  around  $2 billion to go that route. 

As to there being "nothing wrong" with it, I'll  disagree.  My Bucket List is to see the Browns  play in every  NFL venue,  and I'm  about 1\2 way there. When the  stadium was built,  the goal was to replicate the "feel" of the old place as closely as possible.  Bad idea. The concourse behind the  stands is woefully cramped (sardine  city) compared to  almost all of the other stadiums.  Paul Brown in Cincinnati has at least triple if not four times  the space. I was really  hoping  when Jimmy  poured  millions into the  stadium  renovation,  he'd  address  the shortcomings,  but it didn't  happen. BTW, when planning for the stadium  originally  came out, the fan opinion was overwhelming "no dome". 

FWIW,  by my count,  there's 15 teams with the potential of a cold weather  game, and three domes. Tells me all I need to know.  Apparently there's a lot of  wimps afraid of  getting  their  toes cold. 

[Dutch Oven]

38 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Hardly name calling Dutch. Tour was expressing his personal  opinion (which happens to be  different) than yours.  There's  ways to disagree without resorting to  calling  someone a racist  bigot. 

Your feelings  hurt because I'm tired of you and Gorka calling  each other names? FWIW,  I wound up wasting a lot of time deleting what amounted to roughly  30% of the Garrett thread that was just off topic personal insult  bullshit.  

Sweet Jesus, my post could not have flown any higher over your head if it was flying first class in a 747. 

[The Gipper]

12 minutes ago, hoorta said:

I'll  add my two cents about  First Energy  here. 

First about  putting a  dome on it. Can't  and won't  happen. Structurally  wasn't  built for one. Putting a  bubble  over it has already  been  suggested.  Retrofitting  it with the requisite HVAC would be a  nightmare.  If you want a  dome, more  efficient to start from  scratch,  and the going  rate seems to be  around  $2 billion to go that route. 

As to there being "nothing wrong" with it, I'll  disagree.  My Bucket List is to see the Browns  play in every  NFL venue,  and I'm  about 1\2 way there. When the  stadium was built,  the goal was to replicate the "feel" of the old place as closely as possible.  Bad idea. The concourse behind the  stands is woefully cramped (sardine  city) compared to  almost all of the other stadiums.  Paul Brown in Cincinnati has at least triple if not four times  the space. I was really  hoping  when Jimmy  poured  millions into the  stadium  renovation,  he'd  address  the shortcomings,  but it didn't  happen. BTW, when planning for the stadium  originally  came out, the fan opinion was overwhelming "no dome". 

FWIW,  by my count,  there's 15 teams with the potential of a cold weather  game, and three domes. Tells me all I need to know.  Apparently there's a lot of  wimps afraid of  getting  their  toes cold. 

Just out of curiosity Larry, I would like to see that list of all the stadiums you have attended.   ( I know you have been to Titans/Texans of course as I was with you for those). 

I know you are talking about Dallas this year.  I assume that is one you have not been to.  And it is my understanding, if there is to be a "Browns Board"  away game tailgate, Dallas is the likely target.   Depending on the scheduling, there is a very slim chance I could do that....big maybe. (again would look to maybe meet up with my daughter....and at that point he will be my son-in-law in Dallas. 

[mjp28]

10 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Team's leases end well before that time.

We'll see how many years the Browns and Indians want to stay where they are, regardless of how many years we all think the stadiums have. If the Dolans sell the Indians, I'd almost guarantee the new owners will start clamoring for a new stadium, the same way the Haslams are slowly hinting that they want an upgrade over First Energy. 

With each ownership change in any sport or city come new questions.

Do the new owners pledge loyalty to the existing cities to get the team in the first place or are there "loftier goals" for the franchise ?  Ad then there are attendance and profitability issues along with the other 31 owners in NFL Inc. all very wealthy business people who do have some say in moving franchises.

And the larger question: have the NFL Cleveland Browns v2.0 been a success or not and could they be moved when other issues like leases are settled. Scary thought.

The Cleveland Indians have been more successful in every decade since the 1990s and have an adequate remodeled and downsized stadium.

After all this isn't a movie like Major League now it it ?      Or maybe a BROWNS remake ?    

[Flugel]

4 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Football indoors sucks, especially for Browns fans used to football being played in the mud and snow.

But financially there is nothing more idiotic than building an astronomically expensive building that gets used 12 or so times a year, especially when it sits on prime real estate. 

I used to hate indoor football back when it was my dad's era of being a fan. Unfortunately, since it's become a passing league - here's what's been won in the Great Lakes regions while Cleveland never makes post seasons any more:

1 SB Championship in Chicago - although 85 was way before they made rules babying/favoring passers.

2 SB Championships in GB compared to how many they won in the 60s.  The 1 SB they won with Aaron Rodgers as a Wild Card team that had to win 3 road games (inclusive of beating Atlanta in a dome) before beating the Cutler-less Bears in Chicago for the NFC Championship. 

0 SBs in Detroit or as Lumberg used to call it "Detroilet"

0 Superbowls in Cleveland after being the last team to win the NFL Championship in 1964 before the name of it was changed to Superbowl the next year. If I'm off by a year Gipper will let me know...

0 Superbowl Ws for Minnesota

0 Superbowl Ws in Buffalo

0 Superbowl Ws for Cincy even though they're not on a Great Lake per say

 

[Dutch Oven]

5 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I used to hate indoor football back when it was my dad's era of being a fan. Unfortunately, since it's become a passing league - here's what's been won in the Great Lakes regions while Cleveland never makes post seasons any more:

1 SB Championship in Chicago - although 85 was way before they made rules babying/favoring passers.

2 SB Championships in GB compared to how many they won in the 60s.  The 1 SB they won with Aaron Rodgers as a Wild Card team that had to win 3 road games (inclusive of beating Atlanta in a dome) before beating the Cutler-less Bears in Chicago for the NFC Championship. 

0 SBs in Detroit or as Lumberg used to call it "Detroilet"

0 Superbowls in Cleveland after being the last team to win the NFL Championship in 1964 before the name of it was changed to Superbowl the next year. If I'm off by a year Gipper will let me know...

0 Superbowl Ws for Minnesota

0 Superbowl Ws in Buffalo

0 Superbowl Ws for Cincy even though they're not on a Great Lake per say

 

Interesting... Like I've said before, I prefer cold weather football outdoors. 

But I also understand that the city of Cleveland is possibly missing out on a lot of events - events that for example cold weather cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis get - because they don't have a retractable dome football stadium. 

Plus, it's about time Cleveland does something with their lakefront. 

[The Gipper]

8 minutes ago, Flugel said:

I used to hate indoor football back when it was my dad's era of being a fan. Unfortunately, since it's become a passing league - here's what's been won in the Great Lakes regions while Cleveland never makes post seasons any more:

1 SB Championship in Chicago - although 85 was way before they made rules babying/favoring passers.

2 SB Championships in GB compared to how many they won in the 60s.  The 1 SB they won with Aaron Rodgers as a Wild Card team that had to win 3 road games (inclusive of beating Atlanta in a dome) before beating the Cutler-less Bears in Chicago for the NFC Championship. 

0 SBs in Detroit or as Lumberg used to call it "Detroilet"

0 Superbowls in Cleveland after being the last team to win the NFL Championship in 1964 before the name of it was changed to Superbowl the next year. If I'm off by a year Gipper will let me know...  apparently you knew that...or suspected it yourself, as yes, off by a year.   Browns/Packers played last NFL title game in 1965, prior to the onset of the  NFL/AFL Championship game....ltbka...The Super Bowl. Packers beat Cowboys in Dallas for the right to go to SB 1.   That was not the "Ice Bowl"....that came a year later.

0 Superbowl Ws for Minnesota

0 Superbowl Ws in Buffalo

0 Superbowl Ws for Cincy even though they're not on a Great Lake per say.

See my "Curse of Lake Erie" thread. 

 

 

[mjp28]

6 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Interesting... Like I've said before, I prefer cold weather football outdoors. 

But I also understand that the city of Cleveland is possibly missing out on a lot of events - events that for example cold weather cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis get - because they don't have a retractable dome football stadium. 

Plus, it's about time Cleveland does something with their lakefront. 

And those cities and teams are more the "my dad's or granddad's" favorite old teams very much like Cleveland.  Somewhat similar to the B10 vs SEC in college.

They were great once upon a time.

This isn't the Bud Grant era of let's go out and freeze our butts off and play or watch a game.  This newer generation wants comfy seats and wifi hookups.

Forward thinking time ?

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

And those cities and teams are more the "my dad's or granddad's" favorite old teams very much like Cleveland.  Somewhat similar to the B10 vs SEC in college.

They were great once upon a time.

This isn't the Bud Grant era of let's go out and freeze our butts off and play or watch a game.  This newer generation wants comfy seats and wifi hookups.

Forward thinking time ?

In a perfect world, I would want the Browns in a retractable dome that is always open on Browns gamedays, but has the ability to close so it could host the Super Bowl, Final Four, etc...

I know there isn't a chance in hell that would happen though, but that would be my ultimate "win-win" scenario. 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

Just out of curiosity Larry, I would like to see that list of all the stadiums you have attended.   ( I know you have been to Titans/Texans of course as I was with you for those). 

I know you are talking about Dallas this year.  I assume that is one you have not been to.  And it is my understanding, if there is to be a "Browns Board"  away game tailgate, Dallas is the likely target.   Depending on the scheduling, there is a very slim chance I could do that....big maybe. (again would look to maybe meet up with my daughter....and at that point he will be my son-in-law in Dallas. 

Since you asked- Cincinnati (many times), Lions (many times, both old Silverdome and Ford Field), Texans (twice), Colts (before and after Lucas Oil- and if you want my opinion, it's the best of the Domes I've been to), Chiefs- X3, and for those who say an NFL stadium is obsolete after 15 years- Arrowhead has been hosting games since 1972, and it's my favorite outdoor stadium.   Rams St. Louis in the Edward Jones Dome. Dolphins, Patriots, Buccaneers, Titans. 

Blew a lot of opportunities last year. Jets, Broncos, and Cardinals. You probably know I had Arizona on the schedule until the Browns started playing so poorly I cancelled the idea, and I'm glad I didn't waste my money going.  

This year the possibilities are Dallas, Jaguars (would they move the Browns game to London? Not outside the realm of possibility), Giants\ Jets.  My thinking is if I hit a stadium with two teams, it counts for both. I'll only make one trip to LA.  High on my eventual priority list are the Bears, Bills, Packers, and the away Steelers and Ravens. Probably go incognito to the last two. And I've heard Eagles fans are brutal to opposing fans. 

BTW- curious question to those who say First Energy is a waste of Lakefront property- if you tear it down, what's your plan to replace it with that makes it more valuable? Yeah, when the plans for Gateway came out- Modell shot himself in the foot not buying into the idea- but he thought he could go it alone when his cash cow Indians bolted to Jacobs Field. We paid dearly for his mistake. 

56 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

And those cities and teams are more the "my dad's or granddad's" favorite old teams very much like Cleveland.  Somewhat similar to the B10 vs SEC in college.

They were great once upon a time.

This isn't the Bud Grant era of let's go out and freeze our butts off and play or watch a game.  This newer generation wants comfy seats and wifi hookups.

Forward thinking time ?

Part of that is the ever escalating price of decent seats. Cowboy's 100 level are $300 bucks each. And the millennials are more interested in checking how their fantasy team is doing checking on their phones than actually watching the game. Hence the obnoxious IT'S THIRD DOWN!!!! To get the short attention spans back to the game....  Oh well, New England has their fog horn.... 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Flugel said:

I used to hate indoor football back when it was my dad's era of being a fan. Unfortunately, since it's become a passing league - here's what's been won in the Great Lakes regions while Cleveland never makes post seasons any more:

1 SB Championship in Chicago - although 85 was way before they made rules babying/favoring passers.

2 SB Championships in GB compared to how many they won in the 60s.  The 1 SB they won with Aaron Rodgers as a Wild Card team that had to win 3 road games (inclusive of beating Atlanta in a dome) before beating the Cutler-less Bears in Chicago for the NFC Championship. 

0 SBs in Detroit or as Lumberg used to call it "Detroilet"

0 Superbowls in Cleveland after being the last team to win the NFL Championship in 1964 before the name of it was changed to Superbowl the next year. If I'm off by a year Gipper will let me know...

0 Superbowl Ws for Minnesota

0 Superbowl Ws in Buffalo

0 Superbowl Ws for Cincy even though they're not on a Great Lake per say

 

And you forgot how many for the Patriots? I'll count New York as a semi- cold weather site too, so add the Giants and Jets in there for wins.    

The Vikes and Bills at least made the big game, and if not for a shanked Scott Norwood game winner the Bills would have a Ring.  

[Dutch Oven]

6 minutes ago, hoorta said:

BTW- curious question to those who say First Energy is a waste of Lakefront property- if you tear it down, what's your plan to replace it with that makes it more valuable? 

Have you ever been to Chicago? Milwaukee?

Two midwestern cities with a vibrant lakefront scene. Cleveland, on the other hand, has a ton of its downtown lakefront property wasted on a football stadium used a dozen times a year and an airport that almost no one benefits from. 

This isn't a newsflash that Cleveland has always squandered its greatest asset. 

[D Bone]

5 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Can’t they do that outdoors

Oh yea, it's just unrealistic to do it in frozen cities. The SX season starts the 1st Saturday in Jan and runs through the 1st week in May....... Hardly great weather for fans to suffer through in cold weather cites with no lid.  

[hoorta]

17 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Have you ever been to Chicago? Milwaukee?

Two midwestern cities with a vibrant lakefront scene. Cleveland, on the other hand, has a ton of its downtown lakefront property wasted on a football stadium used a dozen times a year and an airport that almost no one benefits from. 

This isn't a newsflash that Cleveland has always squandered its greatest asset. 

Yes, I've been to Chicago a bunch of times- and stayed downtown a week for a convention. DUH!!!  And what's right on the lakefront in Chicago? Soldier Field.  Sorry, but comparing Chicago to Cleveland is more than a little unfair. 

And you didn't answer the question- what's your idea to put in place of the stadium? An Aquarium, Planetarium, or a Park like Chicago? Really????   Sounds like bellyaching just for the sake of bellyaching....  

[Dutch Oven]

57 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Yes, I've been to Chicago a bunch of times- and stayed downtown a week for a convention. DUH!!!  And what's right on the lakefront in Chicago? Soldier Field.  Sorry, but comparing Chicago to Cleveland is more than a little unfair. 

And you didn't answer the question- what's your idea to put in place of the stadium? An Aquarium, Planetarium, or a Park like Chicago? Really????   

I'm sorry, Cleveland's lakefront is perfect the way it is.

I should have never debated the point with someone who would know so much about vibrant urban areas, since you do live in Dayton, Ohio. 

[D Bone]

For those that are a bit curious and have an open mind, round 8 of the 17 round Supercross series from the Cowboys' stadium is on live tonight. It's on NBCSN ( NBC Sports Network ) at 8:30pm EST/5:30pm PST.

The format tonight is different from the other races in the series and is really cool and would be a GREAT 1st race to watch as a complete newbie:

The "250 class" (called that because the engines are 250ccs of displacement ) is for the younger, future stars of the sport - Think NCAA Football

The "450 Class" (called that because the engines are 450ccs of displacement and are much faster ) is for the best riders on the planet - Think NFL

Both the 250s and 450s will each have 3 "Motos" or 3 "Main Events", each 10 laps long. Both classes will alternate races. The 250s will open the event and run their moto 1, then the 450s will run theirs. Then the 250s will run their moto 2, and so on until both classes have each ran their 3 motos and a winner is crowned in each class.

The "overall winner" in each class will be the rider who at the end of the night has the lowest point total when all 3 races are added together

Example: Say a rider wins the 1st moto, gets 3rd in the second moto and 2nd in the 3rd moto, that rider will have 6 points and could be the over all winner if 6pts is the lowest total on the night..... Even if another rider won 2 motos, but fell and finished 10th in the other moto for a total of 12pts..... EACH RACE IS HUGE!! AND WHY TONIGHT WOULD BE A GREAT 1ST RACE TO WATCH.

The riders will hit triple jumps that are 90' from peak to peak......... ( On a softball field, home plate to 2nd base across the diamond is 85' for reference.... Most here can't even make the throw across the diamond, much less jump a motorcycle across it 20' high and 50mph lap after lap )

Just give it a try even if you only watch the first motos of the 250s and 450s.............. just try it!!!

I did it professionally in '84 and can't even put into words the amount of fitness needed to control a 215lb dirt bike...... Far and away, the most fit dudes on the planet. It's also hard to find pants that fit when your balls are so fucking big. 

I know this is a big ask on this forum, but don't just be a snarky dick and not at least give it a try...... what else are you lazy slobs going to do on a Saturday night?? 

 

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, D Bone said:

... what else are you lazy slobs going to do on a Saturday night?? 

 

Eating cheesecake and leaving a flower at the site of Baker's parking lot BJ (never forget!) behind the Cheesecake Factory up in Lyndhurst? 😁

[Tour2ma]

For the record I thought DieHard's "reply" to Woody was an outrageous, name-calling attack.

[D Bone]

9 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Eating cheesecake and leaving a flower at the site of Baker's parking lot BJ (never forget!) behind the Cheesecake Factory up in Lyndhurst? 😁

Try it D

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, D Bone said:

Try it D

Is it possible to do motocross in an arena, or do you have to have a bigger venue like a football stadium? 

 

[D Bone]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

Is it possible to do motocross in an arena, or do you have to have a bigger venue like a football stadium? 

 

Yes sir, it was called Arencross. It is now defunct, but was ran for a decade or so in places like Staples Center. It was a series for the guys who weren't fast enough to race Supercross, but were still some very fast dudes....... Think the XFL?? 

I will also say that not counting real shit like wars, police work, firemen running into burning buildings, there is no scarier place on earth than the start line and the 1st turn in supercross racing........... watch tonight and you'll instantly see what I mean.

I threw up more than once on the start line as a 16-17yr old professional in '84 while racing against 20-25yr old men.  

[Tour2ma]

20 minutes ago, D Bone said:

a 16-17yr old professional

Prodigy much?

HS bud of mine got into motorcross big time after graduation and did pretty well until he screwed up a knee in one of those "first turns".

Sold his Husqvarna and Bultaco shortly thereafter.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, D Bone said:

Oh yea, it's just unrealistic to do it in frozen cities. The SX season starts the 1st Saturday in Jan and runs through the 1st week in May....... Hardly great weather for fans to suffer through in cold weather cites with no lid.  

Just do it in the fucking summer it’s not a winter sport where you need snow or ice 

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Prodigy much?

HS bud of mine got into motorcross big time after graduation and did pretty well until he screwed up a knee in one of those "first turns".

Sold his Husqvarna and Bultaco shortly thereafter.

So you know a bit then T! Man, Bultaco!! My dad had one when I was 7 and he got me my 1st Suzuki dirt bike.... yea, a spoiled kid for sure. 

I progressed really quickly from 7-16. My brother was 7yrs older than me and was really fast, so always trying to keep up with him was the sole reason for it. There was no support class in '84 (the 250cc future star class I spoke of earlier) there was only the elite class and it was stacked with factory riders (the best on the planet) and they were men, not boys like me.

Once I turned pro, I went from being the fastest amateur at the track and a big shot, to just another SoCal dude who wasn't nearly fast enough and all in the blink of an eye. I raced at Jack Murphy stadium in San Diego, Anaheim Stadium and the Coliseum in '84 and never even came close to making the main event (the usual Supercross format, not like tonight's race). I was riding as fast as I could ever see myself going, almost falling multiple times per lap and was generally scared shitless and it was only good enough to fight for 18th out of 25 riders in the Last Chance Qualifier. 

I had multiple major injuries throughout my riding days, but the worst ones were in '84 with the final straw being a closed head injury. I'll watch the race tonight differently from most and still get butterflies at each gate drop, even though I'm safely on my couch.

I love this sport more than any other, and yes football is not even close, but hate what it did to my now 52yr old body, and if I could go back in time, I would tell my dad to never, ever let me ride a dirt bike.

^ Shit, if that doesn't get at least one of you to watch tonight, I don't know what will!! 

 

[D Bone]

19 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Just do it in the fucking summer it’s not a winter sport where you need snow or ice 

Supercross is winter and spring, then the outdoor motocross season starts. These dudes race all year long with only 3 months off. They race in Detroit and Minn with their lids..... They just won't put the fans in an outside stadium in the frozen night time. 

SX is in stadiums, while MotoX is on long, natural tracks where they race 2 motos each 45min long plus 2 laps after the time limit..... shit that will end you on a summer day, no matter how fit you are. 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I'm sorry, Cleveland's lakefront is perfect the way it is.

I should have never debated the point with someone who would know so much about vibrant urban areas, since you do live in Dayton, Ohio. 

Don't be sarcastic. You still didn't answer my question.  FWIW, Chicago's population is 2.7 million . Cleveland's is 385,000- and you think we can somehow compete with skyscraper city Downtown Chicago? Sorry, Severance Hall and University Circle aren't  on the Lakefront- but the Rock & Roll HOF is, ditto the Great Lakes Science center. You probably know if you've been to downtown Cleveland lately- all the partying (except on Browns gameday- that's over on the west side around West 9th and the lots) is up at East 4th around Gateway. I don't see any practical way of eliminating the shipping docks, Coast Guard Station, the Marinas and Burke. The Coast Guard is a necessity, and the others are all revenue producers. Sorry it's not culturally up to your standards. 

Regarding Dayton- do a little research before you speak about "vibrant". I could come on up to Canal Fulton to take a canal boat ride. Been through there on the bike path.    With a city population of 140,000 Downtown Dayton is booming on a relative level. There's been over a 1\2 billion of development downtown with more coming, and condos are getting sold as fast as developers can build them. https://www.daytondailynews.com/business/economy/see-where-millions-have-been-spent-improve-downtown-dayton/hGhhqD6U2v0w5AoSg0icdL/

[mjp28]

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

Have you ever been to Chicago? Milwaukee?

Two midwestern cities with a vibrant lakefront scene. Cleveland, on the other hand, has a ton of its downtown lakefront property wasted on a football stadium used a dozen times a year and an airport that almost no one benefits from. 

This isn't a newsflash that Cleveland has always squandered its greatest asset. 

I was just talking to a friend yesterday who knows people up there about Lake Erie's shoreline around Geneva and other summer spots that are getting battered by the winter storms and destroying the beaches and shorelines.   One big reason no ice on the lake this year to slow the waves.

The federal government has already appropriated funds for the great lakes but this will require a lot of more funds.

Development of Cleveland's lake front should be as important as or go hand and hand with the rock HOF stadiums and other venues........but of course it comes the money.