Supreme Court Considers Religious Schools Case

[jbluhm86]

NPR: Supreme Court Considers Religious Schools Case

 

And the encroachment of religious doctrine on the government continues....

[OldBrownsFan]

Before this country had no govt assistance for religious schools we had govt assistance for religious schools. I know it first hand as I was in Catholic school for a few years in elementary school and when they lost govt aid and started charging for tuition my parents switched me to public school (we had a large family and my parents couldn't afford to send us all).  

[calfoxwc]

5 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Before this country had no govt assistance for religious schools we had govt assistance for religious schools. I know it first hand as I was in Catholic school for a few years in elementary school and when they lost govt aid and started charging for tuition my parents switched me to public school (we had a large family and my parents couldn't afford to send us all).  

The big question is. can the government NOT fund Christian schools, and ONLY fund atheist schools? The old hatred of God in schools because of "separation of church and state" is still extremely IGNORANT of what the Founders intended.

   as most all the time - the left twists and redefines words and clauses and paragraphs and ideals - soley to fit their twisted emotions.

I believe it's a mental illness. Far too many people ride their emotions as the only thing in life that matters. Facts don't matter, definitions of words, etc don't matter. Reality doesn't matter. Morality doesn't matter - and the lives of unborn and born children don't matter. The economy doesn't matter - until you can be happy to use it as a weapon FOR THEIR cause.

   "Mentall illness" is just my best guess at explaining how they can be so offensive and wrong, even violent/way over the edge of dishonesty - and somehow go talking loud and fast, or acting out every time they are shown to be wrong.

[OldBrownsFan]

'You Don't Take Away My Faith': Fired Coach Vows to Fight for Constitutional Right to Pray

Fired for silently praying after a football game????

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2019/october/ive-got-blood-in-that-game-fired-coach-vows-to-fight-for-right-to-pray

[Westside Steve]

17 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

NPR: Supreme Court Considers Religious Schools Case

 

And the encroachment of religious doctrine on the government continues....

I'm not religious. I'm fine with it. The left doesn't really care they are like Vandals. The only aim is to tear down destroy anyting the previous generations hold sacred. Shock and offend.

WSS

[LogicIsForSquares]

This is based on legislation from Montana. So not liberals at odds here.

Would you guys be pumped on your tax dollars going to  Islamic elementary schools? 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

This is a Christian nation, not an Mooslem nation.

[LogicIsForSquares]

1 hour ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

This is a Christian nation, not an Mooslem nation.

The fairy tale just depends on the patch of dirt you were born on. 
 

Religious institutions and schools can get their parishioners to cover the tab. Televangelists make it seem like there is money to spare.

[jbluhm86]

5 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

I'm not religious. I'm fine with it. The left doesn't really care they are like Vandals. The only aim is to tear down destroy anyting the previous generations hold sacred. Shock and offend.

WSS

From the article (BOLD = my commentary)

"The Montana constitutional amendment, however, is not some relic of the past. Though the no-aid provision was originally adopted in 1889, the state constitution was revised and rewritten in 1972. - This isn't a case of the left acting as "vandals [tearing down] anything the previous generations hold sacred". Quite the contrary; this is the ultra-religious of today attempting to instigate themselves into government policy and overturn a decision made by previous generations.

All but one of the surviving delegates to that convention have submitted a brief in this case discussing how the "no-aid" provision was debated and enacted 48 years ago.

They dispute Smith's claim that the 1972 convention's "no-aid" provision was just a rubber stamp of the 1889 provision.

"There was clearly some interest being expressed on behalf of the parochial schools to open up the no-aid provision," recalls Mae Nan Ellingson, one of the delegates. She says a daylong hearing was held, with some 100 witnesses presenting written and oral testimony. Following the hearing, "the debate at the convention" on the "no-aid" provision "was extensive," she says.

"...Ellingson notes that "a number of ministers" who were convention delegates "spoke very ardently in favor of public funds not going to religious education." Indeed, Montana argues that the delegates to its 1972 constitutional convention adopted the "no-aid" amendment in part "to protect religious liberty" and to prevent the state from attaching conditions to its aid. - This here is an important point that the religous didn't take into consideration. Once you open the door for federal funding of religious schools, you also open the door for conditions coming with said aid; such as what the religious schools may or may not teach in their classes. So, if this passes, I hope Catholic schools and other religious institutions enjoy teaching evolution in their classes;  "Teaching the Controversy", as it were. The whole point of "freedom of religion" is to be able to have religious beliefs and practice them without government interference; suing the government to make it a requirement for them to fund religious schools is just them opening their own doors for government interference.

"...In the end, the 1972 constitutional redo passed by a vote of 80-17. During the ratification campaign that followed, Ellingson says, the "no-aid" provision was "never even a threshold issue." And she notes that the no-aid measure included a provision specifically allowing private religious schools to receive available federal funds through a state pass-through mechanism."

[jbluhm86]

1 hour ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

This is a Christian nation, not an Mooslem nation.

Show me where in the Constitution that it says the United States is a Christian nation. Take your time, i'll wait.

[jbluhm86]

16 hours ago, OldBrownsFan said:

Before this country had no govt assistance for religious schools we had govt assistance for religious schools. I know it first hand as I was in Catholic school for a few years in elementary school and when they lost govt aid and started charging for tuition my parents switched me to public school (we had a large family and my parents couldn't afford to send us all).  

Ok, so lets suppose that the people suing Montana win their case and, by extension, federal and state governments are then required to fund religious schools.You, presumably, would be happy with this since, as a Christian yourself, you'd see your fellow Christian's schools recieve tax-dollars to support their schools and religious teachings. Fair enough, but i'm afraid that is a narrow-minded view.

To start, Christianity - although the largest religious group represented - isn't the only religion practiced in the US. Current estimates are that there are over 300 different religions and denominations practiced in the United States. So, it's safe to assume that these religions would also be open to receiveing federal funding for their own schools of religious ideology. Tell me, how would you feel about your tax dollars funding an Islamic madrassa? Or how about a school extolling the virtues of the Church of Scientology? How about bankrolling a school teaching the lessons of Odin and Thor and other Norse gods, for the neo-pagans? Better yet, what if your tax-dollars went into funding for building a multi-million dollar school teaching about Lucifer for the Chruch of Satan? All of these -and many others - are religions recoginized by the United States government, so they'd naturally be eligible for federal and state funding as well, not just Christianity or other Judeo-Christian religions. Once you open the door for federal funding of one religious instituiton, you open the door for funding all of them.

Secondly, in case you missed it in my response to Steve earlier in the thread, so i'll repeat it here: Once you open the door for federal funding of religious schools, you also open the door for conditions coming with said aid; such as what the religious schools may or may not teach in their classes. So, if this passes, I hope Catholic schools and other religious institutions enjoy teaching evolution in their classes;  "Teaching the Controversy", as it were. The whole point of "freedom of religion" is to be able to have religious beliefs and practice them without government interference; suing the government to make it a requirement for them to fund religious schools is just them opening their own doors for government interference.

[Axe]

2 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

 

Would you guys be pumped on your tax dollars going to  Islamic elementary schools? 

You think they don't?

[jbluhm86]

25 minutes ago, Axe said:

You think they don't?

For sure, but it'll be more widespread if this passes.

[Axe]

12 minutes ago, jbluhm86 said:

For sure, but it'll be more widespread if this passes.

Based on the fallacy of your previous statement perhaps you can excuse us if we question the factual basis of this one as well.

 

 

[jbluhm86]

6 minutes ago, Axe said:

Based on the fallacy of your previous statement perhaps you can excuse us if we question the factual basis of this one as well.

 

 

What fallacy are you referring to?

[calfoxwc]

Here's my take. It is absolutely essential to provide funds to private Christian schools. People against it act like Christian parents don't pay taxes, so why should they get aid to THEIR schools?

   The the point about government interference is not a bad point - it just isn't valid to prevent our gov also getting some funds to private Christian schools. The government is not allowed to establish an official accepted religion, and it cannot act to prevent a Christian school from existing. Those Christian parents PAY TAXES TOO.

   So, we have a bit of a quandary there. A simple solution is tax credits for the money paid in tuition to schools. Why should a poor Christian family not be able to pursure their hopes/dreams/Christian beliefs because they are too poor?

   What about THEIR "Life, Liberty, and PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ?" Why demand that Christian parents go to public schools, only to have those kids educated to not accept Christian teachings?

   So many public schools are sold out to liberalism. Part of the reason is - the lawsuits against property taxes being the funding for our schools. Know why? Because with property taxes - the school system is completely beholden to parents/property owners - for their activities/teachings in schools. and those citizens sure as heyl won't put up with a constant barrage of liberal perverted teachings in their schools.

   So, eventually, lawsuits prevailed, and now funds come from higher up - the state - and those obaMao inspired/leaned on schools can teach outrageous anti-Christian truths at will, and parents have no way out - except to get their kids into a private Christian school...

or home school.

   And guess how the nea, state "ea"s and teachers unions feel about that. THEY HATE IT. They can't control/groom the minds of young children if they don't go to their school. And the left is self-defined - as justified in controlling. and grooming a new generation away from Real American parents.

   So, Christian families PAY THE TAXES TOO, and that means they cannot, often, afford to pay for public schools, and still, to pursure their own Happiness, and Life/LIberty - have their kids go to the expensive Christian schools they choose.

  God already knows - that home schoolers are already under the watchful eye and basic regulations by the state education associations/state legislators anyways.

  So. The money paid by parents to send their kids to schools that don't teach constant violations of their faith, that don't put their kids at risk of physical harm, etc.... should be tax exempt - a tax deduction.

   The silly argument about "what if your tax dollars go to mooslim fundamentalist schools" ?

   If Muslim parents want their own school, I'm fine with it. But some of them - they branch off into terrorist teachings, etc.

Then they should be immediately shut down, the perps arrested, lose citizenship, and sent to gitmo.

  I think you will never find Christian schools that branch off and teach kids to blow themselves and "infidels" up, etc etcetc.

SO, two parents, obviously a man and a woman, in REAL AMERICA - make 60,000 bucks a year together. They pay ...well, I forget how expensive it is - let's say... average cost per year to the school is 7000 bucks. So, they pay taxes on 50,000 bucks with no other deductions.

So, 60,000 x .15 (15% tax rate (just throwing out a number here) $9000

        50,000 x .15 $7500.

of course, there are other deductions.

2% of tax dollars goes to education. So, change the 50000 calc to .13. Now it's 6500. That saves about 3000 bucks right there.

Per each parent- you would pay $6000 less a year. Single parent homes would have an extra deduction - getting them to the $6000 dollars saved mark.

  That's just a dumb calc off the top of my head.

Anyways, CHRISTIAN PARENTS PAY JUST AS MUCH IN TAXES. They should get the same benefit in their children's education.

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

4 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

Show me where in the Constitution that it says the United States is a Christian nation. Take your time, i'll wait.

https://wallbuilders.com/america-christian-nation/

[jbluhm86]

1 hour ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

https://wallbuilders.com/america-christian-nation/

https://www.au.org/resources/publications/is-america-a-christian-nation

[Westside Steve]

7 hours ago, LogicIsForSquares said:

 

Would you guys be pumped on your tax dollars going to  Islamic elementary schools? 

Me? Actually I wouldn't mind. Reason? Unless a Catholic school or a Muslim school or Hebrew school is teaching sedition I assume that the kids are getting a better and probably more conservative education than they might in a public school. I went to a Catholic School kindergarten and first grade. Really gave me a step up for when I got to public school.

PS while I hate Islamic terrorism I have absolutely nothing against Muslims. Unlike the animosity that some folks show towards Christians.

WSS

[jbluhm86]

12 minutes ago, Westside Steve said:

Me? Actually I wouldn't mind. Reason? Unless a Catholic school or a Muslim school or Hebrew school is teaching sedition I assume that the kids are getting a better and probably more conservative education than they might in a public school.

That's debatable. One of the major reasons why public school in the United States came about in the first place was because of the poor or non-existent quality of education by private religious institutions and home-schools. Public education was founded, in part, to provide a standardized level of educational instruction. You can look back and compare such metrics as literacy rate, before and after implementation of public education, and its not even close.

[jbluhm86]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Here's my take. It is absolutely essential to provide funds to private Christian schools. People against it act like Christian parents don't pay taxes, so why should they get aid to THEIR schools? - This argument is also valid in reverse; people who practice other religions besides Christianity or no religion at all also play taxes, so why should they have to pay taxes for Christian schools?

   The the point about government interference is not a bad point - it just isn't valid to prevent our gov also getting some funds to private Christian schools. The government is not allowed to establish an official accepted religion, and it cannot act to prevent a Christian school from existing. Those Christian parents PAY TAXES TOO. - Again, it's not the job of the government to fund any religious institution; that's why the concept of separation of Church and State exists. It not only prevents religious encroachment onto the greater body politic, but - more importantly - protects religious institutions from government involvement.

   So, we have a bit of a quandary there. A simple solution is tax credits for the money paid in tuition to schools. Why should a poor Christian family not be able to pursure their hopes/dreams/Christian beliefs because they are too poor? - That could possibly be a solution, as long as the tax credit/tuition voucher is attached to the individual student, not to an educational institution, religious or otherwise. But, you'd still run into the same problem: federal tax dollars would be the one funding the tax credit/tuition voucher, so that could potentially open the door to the government dictating what can and cannot be taught in a religious-based school.

   What about THEIR "Life, Liberty, and PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS ?" Why demand that Christian parents go to public schools, only to have those kids educated to not accept Christian teachings? - "PURSUIT" of happiness, not a "GUARANTEE" of happiness. The ideals behind the phrase mean that any government should provide an environment in which individuals are free to pursue their own happiness, not directly fund it. And the fact that there are Christian and other religious schools to begin with dissuades the notion that Christians are being demanded to or forced into going to public schools.

   So many public schools are sold out to liberalism. Part of the reason is - the lawsuits against property taxes being the funding for our schools. Know why? Because with property taxes - the school system is completely beholden to parents/property owners - for their activities/teachings in schools. and those citizens sure as heyl won't put up with a constant barrage of liberal perverted teachings in their schools.

   So, eventually, lawsuits prevailed, and now funds come from higher up - the state - and those obaMao inspired/leaned on schools can teach outrageous anti-Christian truths at will, and parents have no way out - except to get their kids into a private Christian school...

or home school. - Except the idea of public education funded by property taxes isn't a recent idea; it has been around for more than a century. And, up until as recently as a few decades ago, those same taxes were used to fund Christian ideology taught in public schools, with no consternation from the religious. It was only when it was pointed out through litigation and law making that funding religious ideology using public dollars was unconstitutional that the religious began to complain about federal funding of public schools and public education in general.

   And guess how the nea, state "ea"s and teachers unions feel about that. THEY HATE IT. They can't control/groom the minds of young children if they don't go to their school. And the left is self-defined - as justified in controlling. and grooming a new generation away from Real American parents. - I think teachers unions are more concerned about losing money to line their own pockets than "controlling the minds" of children, but you're not going to get an argument from me about the questionable usefulness of today's teachers unions.

   So, Christian families PAY THE TAXES TOO, and that means they cannot, often, afford to pay for public schools, and still, to pursure their own Happiness, and Life/LIberty - have their kids go to the expensive Christian schools they choose.

  God already knows - that home schoolers are already under the watchful eye and basic regulations by the state education associations/state legislators anyways. - Yes, because I don't think it's out of the realm of reason to have set minimum standards when it comes to education, i.e. reading/writing comprehension, mathematical competency, etc; things that couldn't be guaranteed otherwise by home-schooled education.

  So. The money paid by parents to send their kids to schools that don't teach constant violations of their faith, that don't put their kids at risk of physical harm, etc.... should be tax exempt - a tax deduction.

   The silly argument about "what if your tax dollars go to mooslim fundamentalist schools" ?

   If Muslim parents want their own school, I'm fine with it. But some of them - they branch off into terrorist teachings, etc.

Then they should be immediately shut down, the perps arrested, lose citizenship, and sent to gitmo.

  I think you will never find Christian schools that branch off and teach kids to blow themselves and "infidels" up, etc etcetc.

SO, two parents, obviously a man and a woman, in REAL AMERICA - make 60,000 bucks a year together. They pay ...well, I forget how expensive it is - let's say... average cost per year to the school is 7000 bucks. So, they pay taxes on 50,000 bucks with no other deductions.

So, 60,000 x .15 (15% tax rate (just throwing out a number here) $9000

        50,000 x .15 $7500.

of course, there are other deductions.

2% of tax dollars goes to education. So, change the 50000 calc to .13. Now it's 6500. That saves about 3000 bucks right there.

Per each parent- you would pay $6000 less a year. Single parent homes would have an extra deduction - getting them to the $6000 dollars saved mark.

  That's just a dumb calc off the top of my head.

Anyways, CHRISTIAN PARENTS PAY JUST AS MUCH IN TAXES. They should get the same benefit in their children's education.

 

 

[Westside Steve]

9 minutes ago, jbluhm86 said:

That's debatable.

 yes isn't everything?

One of the major reasons why public school in the United States came about in the first place was because of the poor or non-existent quality of education by private religious institutions and home-schools. Public education was founded, in part, to provide a standardized level of educational instruction. You can look back and compare such metrics as literacy rate, before and after implementation of public education, and its not even close.

 the first public school was in the 17th century. No doubt the proliferation occurred much later than that but things change don't they? There's a pretty wide variety among Public Schools but I don't see many stories about Catholic schools being the equivalent of the ones that really really suck.

WSS

[DieHardBrownsFan]

3 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

https://www.au.org/resources/publications/is-america-a-christian-nation

Look at the source, lmao.

[jbluhm86]

58 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

Look at the source, lmao.

 

5 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

https://wallbuilders.com/america-christian-nation/

[MLD Woody]

Good luck j. You know DH isn't even hiding it anymore, and I'm impressed you broke down a detailed response to cal when you know what you'll get back. 

The crazy thing here to me is arguing for religious schools getting tax dollars in one breath and planned Parenthood not getting funding in another. It's just Christians picking and choosing what they want ALL of our tax dollars going to

 

- yes, there would be angry threads on here with articles from the blaze the first time tax dollars as a result of this change went to a Muslim school

- yes, there would be angry threads on here with articles from the blaze the first time a Christian School was told what to teach because they were receiving tax dollars

 

It would be interesting to also see actual data on public schools vs religious schools. No OBF, not from anywhere you'd normally frequent. It would also need to be adjusted for income and other factors as well I imagine 

[Westside Steve]

1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

Good luck j. You know DH isn't even hiding it anymore, and I'm impressed you broke down a detailed response to cal when you know what you'll get back. 

 hiding what? He's trolling most of the time and you bite it like a Hungry Fish Bites a worm

The crazy thing here to me is arguing for religious schools getting tax dollars in one breath and planned Parenthood not getting funding in another. It's just Christians picking and choosing what they want ALL of our tax dollars going to

 Planned Parenthood performs abortions which many people believe are immoral. St. Edward's teaches people etc etc. And yes the curriculum has to be approved. You didn't know that?

 

- yes, there would be angry threads on here with articles from the blaze the first time tax dollars as a result of this change went to a Muslim school

 and you would be defending it tooth and nail.

- yes, there would be angry threads on here with articles from the blaze the first time a Christian School was told what to teach because they were receiving tax dollars

 isn't that what the public schools do? Why yes it is. Good eye.

It would be interesting to also see actual data on public schools vs religious schools. No OBF, not from anywhere you'd normally frequent. It would also need to be adjusted for income and other factors as well I imagine 

 then why don't you post some? Maybe because Catholic schools perform better than public schools in general? Probably not a big difference between Catholic schools and upper-middle-class Suburban schools but across-the-board?

WSS

[OldBrownsFan]

11 hours ago, jbluhm86 said:

Ok, so lets suppose that the people suing Montana win their case and, by extension, federal and state governments are then required to fund religious schools.You, presumably, would be happy with this since, as a Christian yourself, you'd see your fellow Christian's schools recieve tax-dollars to support their schools and religious teachings. Fair enough, but i'm afraid that is a narrow-minded view.

To start, Christianity - although the largest religious group represented - isn't the only religion practiced in the US. Current estimates are that there are over 300 different religions and denominations practiced in the United States. So, it's safe to assume that these religions would also be open to receiveing federal funding for their own schools of religious ideology. Tell me, how would you feel about your tax dollars funding an Islamic madrassa? Or how about a school extolling the virtues of the Church of Scientology? How about bankrolling a school teaching the lessons of Odin and Thor and other Norse gods, for the neo-pagans? Better yet, what if your tax-dollars went into funding for building a multi-million dollar school teaching about Lucifer for the Chruch of Satan? All of these -and many others - are religions recoginized by the United States government, so they'd naturally be eligible for federal and state funding as well, not just Christianity or other Judeo-Christian religions. Once you open the door for federal funding of one religious instituiton, you open the door for funding all of them.

Secondly, in case you missed it in my response to Steve earlier in the thread, so i'll repeat it here: Once you open the door for federal funding of religious schools, you also open the door for conditions coming with said aid; such as what the religious schools may or may not teach in their classes. So, if this passes, I hope Catholic schools and other religious institutions enjoy teaching evolution in their classes;  "Teaching the Controversy", as it were. The whole point of "freedom of religion" is to be able to have religious beliefs and practice them without government interference; suing the government to make it a requirement for them to fund religious schools is just them opening their own doors for government interference.

I understand the argument but there are things that can be done to minimize problems such as a satanist school etc and that would be to have schools have a minimum enrollment such as being over 100 students and educational standards that teachers must meet. There likely would be Jewish and Muslim schools but I am OK with that as that would be the price to pay to have Christian schools and be fair. Fringe religions/cults would likely not meet either the enrollment or teacher standards. If some do then so be it. The parents would decide the school for their children and not the government. The only requirements the govt should impose are educational requirements which I am fine with.  I have never had a problem with schools teaching the theory of evolution along with creationism.

One of my biggest problems with public schools are that they many times are being selective in what they allow and do not allow.  I am all for public schools getting back to the basics of education and stop the liberal indoctrination on political and social issues. For example we have had schools allow students to leave classes to go to an anti gun rally yet deny students to leave class to go to a pro life rally, It all comes down to fairness.

 

[MLD Woody]

32 minutes ago, OldBrownsFan said:

I understand the argument but there are things that can be done to minimize problems such as a satanist school etc and that would be to have schools have a minimum enrollment such as being over 100 students and educational standards that teachers must meet. There likely would be Jewish and Muslim schools but I am OK with that as that would be the price to pay to have Christian schools and be fair. Fringe religions/cults would likely not meet either the enrollment or teacher standards. If some do then so be it. The parents would decide the school for their children and not the government. The only requirements the govt should impose are educational requirements which I am fine with.  I have never had a problem with schools teaching the theory of evolution along with creationism.

One of my biggest problems with public schools are that they many times are being selective in what they allow and do not allow.  I am all for public schools getting back to the basics of education and stop the liberal indoctrination on political and social issues. For example we have had schools allow students to leave classes to go to an anti gun rally yet deny students to leave class to go to a pro life rally, It all comes down to fairness.

 

Oh God, that "theory" line again... Classic

And yes, I'm sure you've been presented many articles about "liberal indoctrination" in public schools that are completely truthful. But then again you probably consider teaching evolution as "liberal indoctrination" so .... why bother

[OldBrownsFan]

14 minutes ago, MLD Woody said:

Oh God, that "theory" line again... Classic

And yes, I'm sure you've been presented many articles about "liberal indoctrination" in public schools that are completely truthful. But then again you probably consider teaching evolution as "liberal indoctrination" so .... why bother

 

[MLD Woody]

Ah yes, Prager U. The clearly biased right wing think tank that parades around like a legitimate academic institution to try and legitimatize themselves to stupid people