Westside Steve Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Okay those of you who put at least a moderate amount of stock into Analytics I admit I don't know much about it beyond: better a c and e seem to do better against left-handed pitching so let's arranged the lineup up accordingly. Etc. I wouldn't guess it had so much to do with a football lineup because those are pretty much ditched in stone but maybe which defensive or offensive schemes might be better against which teams? Who knows? My question here is how exactly would analytics help us determine that stefanski was the best coaching choice available? WSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob806 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 In analyzing your question I came up with not a whole lot😊 Seriously, it's not hard. It's the AFC North, play solid defense and be fundamentally sound in all three phases, like Pitt, Balt, & sometimes Cincy (like the Browns were years ago), and you contend. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Deja Vu all over again. Didn't we have this conversation like 3 years ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westside Steve Posted January 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, The Gipper said: Deja Vu all over again. Didn't we have this conversation like 3 years ago? Even if we did it's more important now if our head coach was selected through the process. WSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Westside Steve said: My question here is how exactly would analytics help us determine that stefanski was the best coaching choice available? My guess... and it's only a guess... is that analytics has broken down the chances of success of playcalls in every down and distance situation. Then it's a pretty simple matter of seeing how a playcaller stacks up. Only one aspect of a HC evaluation, but feel for the game is an important one. Other aspects... leadership, trustworthiness, communication skills, etc. ... would seem to have to be evaluated the old fashioned way, legwork and face-to-face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: My guess... and it's only a guess... is that analytics has broken down the chances of success of playcalls in every down and distance situation. Then it's a pretty simple matter of seeing how a playcaller stacks up. Only one aspect of a HC evaluation, but feel for the game is an important one. Other aspects... leadership, trustworthiness, communication skills, etc. ... would seem to have to be evaluated the old fashioned way, legwork and face-to-face. Problem is, the last stuff you mentioned really can't be quantitated. So in the end, it just boils down to gut feeling if it's the "right guy". I have no feeling one way or the other about Stefanski this go around, it's all about wins. And if Kevin doesn't win right out of the gate, its going to be a real short honeymoon with the fans and the shouts from the peanut gallery for Haslam to sell out are going to be deafening. MHO. So Jimmy is trying for (I hope the last time) to assemble a coaching staff where they can all sit around the campfire, toast marshmallows and sing kumbaya. I hope it works. I'm getting mighty tired shelling out money for season tickets to watch the unending clown show Haslam offers up year after year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Westside Steve said: Okay those of you who put at least a moderate amount of stock into Analytics I admit I don't know much about it beyond: better a c and e seem to do better against left-handed pitching so let's arranged the lineup up accordingly. Etc. I wouldn't guess it had so much to do with a football lineup because those are pretty much ditched in stone but maybe which defensive or offensive schemes might be better against which teams? Who knows? My question here is how exactly would analytics help us determine that stefanski was the best coaching choice available? WSS I have wondered the same thing. I think a part of it is every play a team runs is input in the computer. How did said play result against different fronts, etc. Then the coach calls are input and a grade is given. The coach makes a correct call as based on the statistical odds for a positive outcome v a negative outcome. Coach A makes the statistically correct call 74% v another coach who made the correct call 54% of the time. Same could be done with halftime adjustments. What coach showed he threw out the things that didn't work and went with the things that did. Does the coach go with the odds on going for it...I am sure much more that this mind doesn't understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 34 minutes ago, hoorta said: Problem is, the last stuff you mentioned really can't be quantitated. So in the end, it just boils down to gut feeling if it's the "right guy". I have no feeling one way or the other about Stefanski this go around, it's all about wins. And if Kevin doesn't win right out of the gate, its going to be a real short honeymoon with the fans and the shouts from the peanut gallery for Haslam to sell out are going to be deafening. MHO. So Jimmy is trying for (I hope the last time) to assemble a coaching staff where they can all sit around the campfire, toast marshmallows and sing kumbaya. I hope it works. I'm getting mighty tired shelling out money for season tickets to watch the unending clown show Haslam offers up year after year. Some of it has to be gut, but in many ways that is the least important as compared to the person stands the best chance of putting us in to a good play based on situation. It's like playing blackjack. The player who makes the solid decisions stands a good chance of winning. It doesn't always work out that way. You can make the call that statically says you have a 70% chance at a positive result, but you still have a 30% chance it won't. The measure in this case isn't the result. The measure is did he put us in to a play that had a good or best chance of working? That is all you can hope for. Like you, I am tired as well. See you next year...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Westside Steve said: Even if we did it's more important now if our head coach was selected through the process. WSS Well, maybe. Though personally I put no importance on it.....other than to say, no matter what process was used, can we just get a fucking guy to come in here and win...no matter how! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 45 minutes ago, hoorta said: So Jimmy is trying for (I hope the last time) to assemble a coaching staff where they can all sit around the campfire, toast marshmallows and sing kumbaya. I hope it works. I'm getting mighty tired shelling out money for season tickets to watch the unending clown show Haslam offers up year after year. Do you think that would work? I mean, we have to try something. I mean, it could end up being like this.....watch some of it.. They sing Kumbaya, and then giggle for 3 minutes. That could be how our FO ends up: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 38 minutes ago, hoorta said: Problem is, the last stuff you mentioned really can't be quantitated. Not only that, but it can't be "quantified".... There can be some "science" in today's interviewing approaches, but it's psychological, "soft science". Questions can be clustered to probe certain qualities an employer is looking to test, but in the end candidate evaluations are subjective. Less used, but even more effective are some scenario "exercises" that can test candidates. One is very effective for looking at time management/ organizational skills. It involves replacing someone who after a prolonged absence will not be returning to work. The candidate is put in the departed's office, stacked with a backlog of workflow of varying importance and urgency. How quickly and accurately he sorts thru the backlog is measured. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, ballpeen said: Some of it has to be gut, but in many ways that is the least important as compared to the person stands the best chance of putting us in to a good play based on situation. It's like playing blackjack. The player who makes the solid decisions stands a good chance of winning. It doesn't always work out that way. You can make the call that statically says you have a 70% chance at a positive result, but you still have a 30% chance it won't. The measure in this case isn't the result. The measure is did he put us in to a play that had a good or best chance of working? That is all you can hope for. Like you, I am tired as well. See you next year...lol We should just then get James Holzhauer to run the team. I mean, this is a guy that takes big risks, and is right like 98% of the time: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: Not only that, but it can't be "quantified".... There can be some "science" in today's interviewing approaches, but it's psychological, "soft science". Questions can be clustered to probe certain qualities an employer is looking to test, but in the end candidate evaluations are subjective. Less used, but even more effective are some scenario "exercises" that can test candidates. One is very effective for looking at time management/ organizational skills. It involves replacing someone who after a prolonged absence will not be returning to work. The candidate is put in the departed's office, stacked with a backlog of workflow of varying importance and urgency. How quickly and accurately he sorts thru the backlog is measured. No doubt. You are being tested when you go in to Wal-Mart to fill out a application at their employment center computer kiosk. It records how fast you typed and when you backed spaced to correct spelling, etc. It's used everywhere. Just another tool for companies to better gauge your intelligence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, ballpeen said: No doubt. You are being tested when you go in to Wal-Mart to fill out a application at their employment center computer kiosk. It records how fast you typed and when you backed spaced to correct spelling, etc. It's used everywhere. Just another tool for companies to better gauge your intelligence If typing speed and accuracy = intelligence, then I'm fucked... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, The Gipper said: We should just then get James Holzhauer to run the team. I mean, this is a guy that takes big risks, and is right like 98% of the time: He understands how to play that game. Similar to my bring up Blackjack. Depo isn't a coach, but he does understand sports. He can identify the qualities top performers have/had and compare those to prospective hires. Again, it's just playing the percentages. To me, playing the percentages makes more sense than going on a gut feeling, but that's just me. Doofus went with his get feeling and it turned out to be the worst decision of his life. I feel bad for the guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: If typing speed and accuracy = intelligence, then I'm fucked... No, it helps for placement. You might still be able to be a overnight stocker. Maybe not a cashier or some type of management candidate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, ballpeen said: He understands how to play that game. Similar to my bring up Blackjack. Depo isn't a coach, but he does understand sports. He can identify the qualities top performers have/had and compare those to prospective hires. Again, it's just playing the percentages. To me, playing the percentages makes more sense than going on a gut feeling, but that's just me. Doofus went with his get feeling and it turned out to be the worst decision of his life. I feel bad for the guy. We shall see. If just playing the percentages gets us to a place where following your gut feeling did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpeen Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, The Gipper said: We shall see. If just playing the percentages gets us to a place where following your gut feeling did not. True. Thought I think we were so under coached, we have to be better. Plus, Freddie didn't really select his coordinators, did he? I think John had a big role in that. John brought in some excellent skill players. Foundation players not so much. Math proves everything, and I am as anti-math as it gets. I don't think that way, except when playing cards and investing. Go with percentages, it gives you the best odds. Like I said, it can still come out wrong, buy you are never wrong going with the choice that gives you the best odds for a positive outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, Tour2ma said: If typing speed and accuracy = intelligence, then I'm fucked... In our Blood Center, the folks who were potential hires in the processing department had to do a sort speed and accuracy test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 Analytics is a fancy work for proctology, so when all else fails in selecting a HC, just pull a name out of your ass. Listen closely as Eddie says Stefanski. 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tour2ma Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 si to the rescue.... ================================================================================================== It's About Time The Browns Joined Football's Modern Age Pete Smith 17 hours ago In the wake of hiring Kevin Stefanski as the head coach of the Cleveland Browns, there's been a bunch of excellent reporting delving into the process that went into the hire as well some of the details that are going to come as a result. One of the areas that has been mentioned is the notion of Paul DePodesta's analytics department being involved in game planning, which is to say the coaching staff will be providing them with game plans. https://twitter.com/DustinFox37/status/1216510921947914240 As mentioned by Dustin Fox of 92.3 The Fan, the coaching staff would provide game plans to the analytics department and have some meetings with them before games. This is not only smart, but should be expected from a team that is worth over $1 billion that is trying to compete each and every week, because other teams are already doing it. While this is being interpreted as micromanagement, it's actually an incredibly supportive role that just becomes an extension of the coaching staff and only helps them as well as players become more prepared before as well as during the game. A coach provide the analytics department a gameplan. That department then provides relevant data to help both the coaches and players, going along with their film work. For example, if the Browns are planning to use a specific personnel group on offense, the analytics department is going to provide them with as much information as possible as it relates to what the defense has shown up to that point. Defenses are lining up certain ways, depending on down and distance, their likelihood to blitz, where they tend to blitz, what type of coverages they are likely to run, their specific tendency for dealing with a primary receiver, so on and so forth. They would also provide some self scouting information such as how often they are successful in that personnel group, which formations they've experienced the most success and particular plays or players that have excelled. They aren't telling the coaching staff what to do, but are simply giving them data, so when they are deciding, they are able to make an informed decision, assuming they choose to use it. Being less reliant on a gut instinct and feeling more confident in decisions because there's information saying it's a prudent decision is beneficial and improves time management. The meetings that would happen before the game would largely be for the analytics department to make sure they have all the relevant data the coaching staff wants. In other words, at no point in the game are they caught flat footed, unable to provide desired information to a coach. This is no different from what coaches meetings discuss before games; making sure they have everything covered, so they can be prepared during the game. The analytics department is simply a support staff that is trying to anticipate the needs of the coaching staff, so they can focus entirely on beating the opponent rather than searching for information. During a game, Kevin Stefanski will have access to his coaches through his headset, but he also effectively has access to the internet and a team of people willing to get him whatever he wants at a moment's notice. While coaches are talking to the offense on the sideline, the analytics department is gathering information that's relevant for what they are discussing in the moment as well as information for the next drive. An effective analytics department during the game acts effectively as a coaching staff's personal assistant. They take care of some of the tasks the coach doesn't want to do during the game, so they can focus on on the critical decisions they were hired to make. At times, the data going to be a factor at all, but there are times when that extra set of eyes and hands specifically geared to make the coach's job easier are going to make a huge difference. Any number of successful teams do this, but the Baltimore Ravens and Philadelphia Eagles are quite public about their willingness to embrace data in games. They are operating on the cutting edge while anyone who isn't embracing this type of data is at a disadvantage. The fact the Browns weren't doing this before is what should be of concern. They are coming at this and adapting late, which given their results for the past few decades, shouldn't come as a surprise. https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/its-about-time-the-cleveland-browns-joined-footballs-modern-age ======================================================================================================================= ... or as Billy Beane put it... "Adapt or die, bitches"... Actually I added the "bitches"... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gipper Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 We’ll just see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 I always wondered about the validity of analytics, at least with regard to football players and in relation to analytics as used to evaluate baseball players. The point of it all is to gauge success rates to opportunities. The opportunities in baseball are much much higher in baseball than football. If a batter sees 5 pitches each PA and gets 4 PAs per game, over a week of time that equates to 140 opportunities to hit a baseball. Jarvis Landry had 83 receptions on 138 targets last year, roughly the same amount of opportunities as the baseball player had in one week. In a football player’s career they will likely have less opportunities than a baseball player will have in just one year, so l can’t help but wonder how reliable that data is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canton Mike Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Tour2ma said: If typing speed and accuracy = intelligence, then I'm fucked... Me too Tour, me too! LOL Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasAg1969 Posted January 13, 2020 Report Share Posted January 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Canton Mike said: Me too Tour, me too! LOL Mike My new computer is so fast it makes me think maybe I'm getting faster. But analytics proves it's just the computer. 🤗🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickers Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 Anal-Litticks sounds as stupid to me now.. As when I first heard of it.. You can't measure heart or desire with it... To me.. It sounds like Corporate hogwash.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 4 hours ago, Tour2ma said: si to the rescue.... ================================================================================================== It's About Time The Browns Joined Football's Modern Age Pete Smith 17 hours ago In the wake of hiring Kevin Stefanski as the head coach of the Cleveland Browns, there's been a bunch of excellent reporting delving into the process that went into the hire as well some of the details that are going to come as a result. One of the areas that has been mentioned is the notion of Paul DePodesta's analytics department being involved in game planning, which is to say the coaching staff will be providing them with game plans. https://twitter.com/DustinFox37/status/1216510921947914240 As mentioned by Dustin Fox of 92.3 The Fan, the coaching staff would provide game plans to the analytics department and have some meetings with them before games. This is not only smart, but should be expected from a team that is worth over $1 billion that is trying to compete each and every week, because other teams are already doing it. While this is being interpreted as micromanagement, it's actually an incredibly supportive role that just becomes an extension of the coaching staff and only helps them as well as players become more prepared before as well as during the game. A coach provide the analytics department a gameplan. That department then provides relevant data to help both the coaches and players, going along with their film work. For example, if the Browns are planning to use a specific personnel group on offense, the analytics department is going to provide them with as much information as possible as it relates to what the defense has shown up to that point. Defenses are lining up certain ways, depending on down and distance, their likelihood to blitz, where they tend to blitz, what type of coverages they are likely to run, their specific tendency for dealing with a primary receiver, so on and so forth. They would also provide some self scouting information such as how often they are successful in that personnel group, which formations they've experienced the most success and particular plays or players that have excelled. They aren't telling the coaching staff what to do, but are simply giving them data, so when they are deciding, they are able to make an informed decision, assuming they choose to use it. Being less reliant on a gut instinct and feeling more confident in decisions because there's information saying it's a prudent decision is beneficial and improves time management. The meetings that would happen before the game would largely be for the analytics department to make sure they have all the relevant data the coaching staff wants. In other words, at no point in the game are they caught flat footed, unable to provide desired information to a coach. This is no different from what coaches meetings discuss before games; making sure they have everything covered, so they can be prepared during the game. The analytics department is simply a support staff that is trying to anticipate the needs of the coaching staff, so they can focus entirely on beating the opponent rather than searching for information. During a game, Kevin Stefanski will have access to his coaches through his headset, but he also effectively has access to the internet and a team of people willing to get him whatever he wants at a moment's notice. While coaches are talking to the offense on the sideline, the analytics department is gathering information that's relevant for what they are discussing in the moment as well as information for the next drive. An effective analytics department during the game acts effectively as a coaching staff's personal assistant. They take care of some of the tasks the coach doesn't want to do during the game, so they can focus on on the critical decisions they were hired to make. At times, the data going to be a factor at all, but there are times when that extra set of eyes and hands specifically geared to make the coach's job easier are going to make a huge difference. Any number of successful teams do this, but the Baltimore Ravens and Philadelphia Eagles are quite public about their willingness to embrace data in games. They are operating on the cutting edge while anyone who isn't embracing this type of data is at a disadvantage. The fact the Browns weren't doing this before is what should be of concern. They are coming at this and adapting late, which given their results for the past few decades, shouldn't come as a surprise. https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/its-about-time-the-cleveland-browns-joined-footballs-modern-age ======================================================================================================================= ... or as Billy Beane put it... "Adapt or die, bitches"... Actually I added the "bitches"... OK- when I first heard this it was WTF in hell are they going to try now? So teams are now going to play an extremely advanced computerized game of Madden. Except it's for real, in Actual NFL games. This being the case, no wonder McDaniels told the Browns- "No Thanks". I borrowed this from Dustin Fox's Twitter feed. I'm sure a lot of Browns fans share the sentiment. Here's Jimmy, Depodesta, and the rest of the analytics team going over the head coaches game plan at the end of the week to give their approval. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardBrownsFan Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoorta Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just some further thoughts on the "nouveau" analytics approach. The Ravens are doing it? Didn't help them much against the Titans, did it? Sorry that 8 in the box didn't work against Henry. Update the analytics. And West Side Steve brought up a point to consider- when everyone is shooting the same guns, your tactical advantage is zero. We use our analytics to figure out the best way to attack the Ravens defense- Baltimore is using their analytics as to what plays the Browns offense will likely use in a given formation. Standoff. Do your job? What's a coach to say to a player when he has to tell them - the computer said you screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ibleedbrown Posted January 14, 2020 Report Share Posted January 14, 2020 34 minutes ago, DieHardBrownsFan said: Jimmy looks drunk already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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