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The Gipper

The 'Who you watching?' 2020 thread.

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25 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.

I'm half way through the Texas game.

Murray will end up being the best looking LB in this class before it's all over IMHO.   I really haven't even had much time to go through the backers and watch them save for Harrison.   But he just jumps off the screen,  it's incredibly difficult to NOT notice him.      Everyone screaming about Simmons, but Murray might be THE will linebacker of this group.

 

edit:  Almost forgot, when I'm taking a break from Murray, I'm watching Tega-Wanogho, LT from Auburn.     Not sure if you've had a chance to watch him yet...?

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

A while back disparaged this ILB class as a group. I've since learned that I definitely owe Murray an apology. Jury is still out on Queen.

I have liked Harrison's value as a late-2nd, early-3rd pick for a while now.

Murray was the only ILB taken in round one of our Mock Draft:  #23;    Queen taken Rd. 2. #34

I took Harrison for the Browns in Rd.  3 at #74.

So, maybe we were right on collectively with those guys?

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Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.

Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog.     Good lord.  

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog.     Good lord.  

that's a bad as$ dawg, i don't want to see anywhere in the AFCN..strong pad level hands, with good reach, that will break your hands off.. does watching Timmy Jernigan come to mind? 

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30 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

that's a bad as$ dawg, i don't want to see anywhere in the AFCN..strong pad level hands, with good reach, that will break your hands off.. does watching Timmy Jernigan come to mind? 

I'm not entirely sure if it's just any one player that comes to mind.  He isn't very tall, but he has a great first step and he has boxer like hands.  To me that's Aaron Donald.  Natural leverage created by height (lack of) and a strong base with quick feet.    But he's a bit thicker, 3bills.  Maybe 305ish?  He has a decent wing span, but he doesn't have such a great one that I would walk him out over a guard every down.  So I could see some Timmy J there.   He's basically a gap shooting 1tech in an odd front base, then you just kick him around as you see fit.  But his burst, violence and pad level give centers and guards fits to their interior shoulder.    Almost like a smaller Akiem Hicks?    

An interesting, but very fun watch.

 

edit:  Right team, wrong player.  A smaller Eddie Goldman.   

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.

Neville Gallimore Is. A. Fucking. Dog.     Good lord.  

4 year starter at OU.  Recruited by every major college program.

 

i know It came down to OU and Ohio State.  I know OSU was disappointed when they didn’t land him 

 

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21 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Had to stop watching Murray for a moment, because when you find good LB play, generally that means there's some quality big boys in front of him.

True, but the LB still has to cash in the IDL's effort.

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8 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

True, but the LB still has to cash in the IDL's effort.

 

"generally"

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53 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Unpopular opinion - I feel comfortable passing on Javon Kinlaw.

I suppose Kinlaw, very very athletic for his size. will be good.

But.... the OT I'm really interested in...held his own and then some against...Kinlaw. Surprised some people:

https://www.bucsnation.com/2020/2/14/21133729/2020-nfl-draft-prospect-offensive-tackle-ben-bartch

"

Steven Montez is running away with the ball and I can’t turn the camera away from Ben Bartch putting Kinlaw down. #SeniorBowl pic.twitter.com/63PsO4rejo

— Austin Silvey (@SilveyESP) January 23, 2020

"

 

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2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I suppose Kinlaw, very very athletic for his size. will be good.

But.... the OT I'm really interested in...held his own and then some against...Kinlaw. Surprised some people:

https://www.bucsnation.com/2020/2/14/21133729/2020-nfl-draft-prospect-offensive-tackle-ben-bartch

"

Steven Montez is running away with the ball and I can’t turn the camera away from Ben Bartch putting Kinlaw down. #SeniorBowl pic.twitter.com/63PsO4rejo

— Austin Silvey (@SilveyESP) January 23, 2020

"

 

Heard about that kid.  He's on the long list of watching I need to keep working on.  I hear the work "technician" thrown around, and I'm a fan of that word.

But I just got done watching every snap of Kinlaw vs UNC.   Dude ends up on the ground.... a lot. 

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30 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

I suppose Kinlaw, very very athletic for his size. will be good.

But.... the OT I'm really interested in...held his own and then some against...Kinlaw. Surprised some people:

https://www.bucsnation.com/2020/2/14/21133729/2020-nfl-draft-prospect-offensive-tackle-ben-bartch

"

Steven Montez is running away with the ball and I can’t turn the camera away from Ben Bartch putting Kinlaw down. #SeniorBowl pic.twitter.com/63PsO4rejo

— Austin Silvey (@SilveyESP) January 23, 2020

"

 

Barth looks nasty too.  He may stack up with the top guys when all is said and done.  I don’t think any of the tackles are elite.  I really have a hard time chasing good Olineman in the top 10 just because you need one.  I want a Joe Thomas or a Tony Boselli in that range. 

also Some of these small school guys are studs this year.  Watch Some  Trautman TE from Dayton.  The kid can catch the BALL.

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Not sure how we collectively missed this, but here it is...

Quote

Joe Thomas in His Own Words during an appearance on a show called Cleveland Browns Daily:

     " I see Tristan Wirfs especially early on in his career as a guy that might start out as a Guard because just the way he moves he doesn't have as much hip mobility as I think he would need to come in and start right away as an Offensive Tackle and so when I watch him I think that he's probably going to end up starting right away as a Guard so for the Cleveland Browns they've got at least 1 really good Guard already so I think with that 1st pick they're going to be thinking offensive tackle and that's why I would put Tristan Wirfs back and say Andrew Thomas is more ready to start now as a prototypical offensive tackle. Number 3 as an offensive tackle I'd put Jedrick Wills...."    --- Joe Thomas ----

https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/25636-polls-rankchoose-the-top-tackles-joe-thomas-says-wirfs-is-a-guard/

Also...

Quote

About a week ago both Joe Thomas and John Greco each spent one day filling in for Nathan Zegura on "Cleveland Browns Daily" on AM 850. Being that both of them are former O-Lineman the topic of the the top O-Lineman in the draft was obviously gonna come up....

Both of them were of the belief that Tristan Wirfs, was an unbelievable athlete, coming off an tremendous combine but when it came to the talk of him as a viable option as a Tackle for the Browns both felt that, on tape, Wirf's "hips were a little stiff" and that he appeared to both them to be more of a future Guard than a future Tackle. Let alone a left Tackle.

When it comes to someone's thoughts on an O-line prospect I will take Joe Thomas's and John Greco's opinion any day over some "talking head" or beat reporter...

Thomas was very high on both Jedrick Wills and Andrew Thomas as "day one" starters for the Browns at tackle. He also felt, like some other folks, that it was reasonable to question whether Mehki Becton's overall build might not be best suited for the zone blocking scheme the Browns are gonna employ. A scheme that calls for the tackles to pull out wide well over a dozen times a game, if not more.

When someone is well over 350lbs will they have the agility and endurance to consistently be able to run down the line of scrimmage out in front of the running back before turning it up field? There is a huge difference between a zone running scheme and a power running scheme. Becton is probably more cut out for the latter.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Board/105323/Contents/Joe-Thomas-John-Greco-thoughts-on-Top-O-Lineman-145025826/

 

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Joe, of course not surprisingly, has been dead on his assessment of OL talent over the last few years. He's such a great commentator but I hope the Browns can convince the dude to take some sort of well paid scouting role, IDK. I'm never the dude to beat the drum of former greats being coaches/personnel (stop trying to make Kosar happen, it's not going to happen), but Joe's intelligence just leaps out.

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On 3/29/2020 at 2:34 PM, tiamat63 said:

I'm half way through the Texas game.

Murray will end up being the best looking LB in this class before it's all over IMHO. 

End up?  He's already the #1 ILB in this draft class. Not busting your balls here because I appreciate the passion and work you put into this for us.  Anyway, aside from what I've seen online - the only 2 draft guides I bought rate him as the #1 ILB.  In his Conference Championship game vrs Baylor - he had 8 solo tackles 2 assists, 1 sack and 1 PD.  And the year before as a soph, in the CFP Semifinal vrs Alabama - he had 7 solo tackles, 8 assists and .5 sacks. His soph year was his best year vrs the run with 71 solo tackles, 84 assists and 4.5 sacks; BUT only 2 PD (which improved to 4 passes defensed as a junior in 2019). Looks like a bigger version of Mike Johnson.

So, what can he improve on?  In his 42 starts in 3 years, he has 0 INTs and only 6 passes defensed.  So, my best guess here is his biggest challenge will be his pre-snap awareness/reads that promote the quick recognition to get him to the inside hook zones on time to be efficient. A lot of that comes with experience as Joe Schobert reminded us. And now that he's really good at defending the pass, Jax gets the player we developed.   Looking at what we did in FA for the 3 openings in our LB Corps, we added the ILB/MLB BJ Goodson (1 year contract only  though) which still leaves us looking for 2 starters at OLB.   It'll be interesting to see what we do at LBer in this draft.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Not sure how we collectively missed this, but here it is...

Also...

 

I watched a ton of Iowa football this past year.  I thought he stood out and he had good company on the line.  It was pointed out during the year that he was a state champion wrestler in HS in Iowa - impressive feat for those who follow wrestling.  
 

You gotta to have great hips and you have to know the leverage game well to wrestle at a high level especially mid and upper weights along with having great balance.  My only surprise with Joe’s critique is the Lack of hip mobility. 
 

Having said that i don’t know If he’s my favorite left tackle prospect.  
 

im moving in the Slight trade down Jones camp. 

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15 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

The tape don't lie.

Ain't that the truth?! Neither does a LT that made 10 consecutive Pro Bowls at the position in terms of expertise about job requirements.

1 amendment I'll add to your point is "if you see enough tape on a guy."   I ran around here like a rooster on steroids after I watched videos of Mack Wilson's greatest moments.  What I'm getting at here during this time of year is sometimes we don't dig deep enough on the even the best of prospects.  I'm going to give you an example in a second on a guy I think should still be the #1 rated LT prospect (Andrew Thomas).  Having said that, the latter part of the video below finds a flaw with a pass pro fundamental/hand placement the narrator thinks is from a bad teaching (also illustrated via example with the RT confirming why he thinks it's from the teaching).  And who's that LG #66 modeling the FLABS (Flugel's Abs)?  Thatta boy!!!

 

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2 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

The tape don't lie.

Sure doesn't... but sometimes it fibs. Any player can have a bad game due to injury or a bad matchup. That's why in the past I tried to find games early and late in a season against varying levels of opposition. Can't find enough tape to do that this year.

That said it's refreshing to post here where tape aficionados have become more widespread over the past couple years.

 

Visited reddit for the first time in a long time when site went down the other day. If I had a nickel for every "Wirfs Combine" type post, then I'd have a quarter... some Becton backers as well. Few of these talk "tape".

Most tape-watching posters there seem to have joined Camp Thomas. Wills has a good share of supporters as well. Jones seems to be the under-watched prospect.

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13 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

" I see Tristan Wirfs especially early on in his career as a guy that might start out as a Guard..."

Just reread this and made me wonder... when has a prospect ever started out at OG and then moved to OT?

I've seen vets do it on an interim basis when a starting OT is hurt and the OL is shuffled, but can't think of a single instance of a starting OG moving on to be a starting OT.

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16 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Most tape-watching posters there seem to have joined Camp Thomas. Wills has a good share of supporters as well. Jones seems to be the under-watched prospect.

Watching that video of Lombardi talking about Thomas - Thomas won't be there at ten. My stupid mock idea of trading back a bit and drafting Josh Jones seems to be risky now. The Jets, picking right after us, have had a video conference with Jones.

Well, half the NFL has, the Browns have.  Jones needs more coaching in some things, most kids coming out of college do, I reckon.

I have Jones squarely at two, just a hunch - there are questions about Wills' demeanor..."meanness" ? Which just means "question" him about it, etc. Which could be nothing to worry about.


ttps://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2020/3/6/21162231/nfl-draft-2020-jedrick-wills-jr-alabama-offensive-tackle-guard-film-highlights

I wish somebody would find Lombardi doing that appraisal of Josh Jones - I couldn't find one. Andrew Thomas really looks the part of an immediate LT star. Lombardi does a GREAT job, I think.

It's getting to be time to have more talksies with Flugels again on oline play and learn more stuff. Confusing - now it looks like Thomas, Jones and Wills will be gone like a freight train before the fifteenth pick.

 

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On 4/3/2020 at 10:41 AM, calfoxwc said:

Confusing - now it looks like Thomas, Jones and Wills will be gone like a freight train before the fifteenth pick.

Based on appraisal of the OT position, yes, but it's so much more complicated than that.

First there are the other positions to consider... If three QBs go in the  Top Ten, and It's likely they will (Burrow, Tua, Herbert)... add Young., Simmons and Okudah who are all Top Ten worthy... and you have 6 slots gone. That leaves three between us and our OT...

Add that while I love the value of Thomas and Jones at 10, I would not spend our #10 and #41 (or a future #1) to move up to take either. Obviously doesn't guarantee that no team will trade up for an OT, but at least the value in doing so is not obvious... at least to me.

So Jones at #15 is one of many possible scenarios. And that's what teams are busy doing now... creating various scenarios and rehearsing their reactions including feeling out other teams intentions and willingness to deal picks later this month.

Then it all depends on how the Draft unfolds in reality.

Best news? It's gonna be here before you know it.

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3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Just reread this and made me wonder... when has a prospect ever started out at OG and then moved to OT?

I was reading one of the links htownbrown posted in another thread that included this tidbit from Phil Savage...

Quote

The top tackle on the Baltimore draft board was UCLA’s Jonathan Ogden.

“We felt so strongly about him, we drafted him knowing he’d play guard his first season,” said Savage. “We had (former Brown) Tony Jones at left tackle. But we knew J.O. (Ogden) would be our left tackle for 10 years.”

That’s what happened in Baltimore. Ogden took over the left tackle position in 1997, holding it down for the next 11 years. He is now in the Hall of Fame.

So have a sorta example except Ogden wasn't inserted at OG to fix anything or "season him", but rather to simply make him a place to play.

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7 hours ago, Flugel said:

End up?  He's already the #1 ILB in this draft class. Not busting your balls here because I appreciate the passion and work you put into this for us.  Anyway, aside from what I've seen online - the only 2 draft guides I bought rate him as the #1 ILB.  In his Conference Championship game vrs Baylor - he had 8 solo tackles 2 assists, 1 sack and 1 PD.  And the year before as a soph, in the CFP Semifinal vrs Alabama - he had 7 solo tackles, 8 assists and .5 sacks. His soph year was his best year vrs the run with 71 solo tackles, 84 assists and 4.5 sacks; BUT only 2 PD (which improved to 4 passes defensed as a junior in 2019). Looks like a bigger version of Mike Johnson.

So, what can he improve on?  In his 42 starts in 3 years, he has 0 INTs and only 6 passes defensed.  So, my best guess here is his biggest challenge will be his pre-snap awareness/reads that promote the quick recognition to get him to the inside hook zones on time to be efficient. A lot of that comes with experience as Joe Schobert reminded us. And now that he's really good at defending the pass, Jax gets the player we developed.   Looking at what we did in FA for the 3 openings in our LB Corps, we added the ILB/MLB BJ Goodson (1 year contract only  though) which still leaves us looking for 2 starters at OLB.   It'll be interesting to see what we do at LBer in this draft.

 

 

 

- I'm looking at Murray as a WILL backer. I don't want him banging around on the interior too much.   So his direct competition for that lofty #1 status is against Isiash Simmons...  as he is beginning to be touted as an off ball LB (primarily)   Goodson can handle that MIKE role just fine.         And yes, you will hear Simmons being talked about in similar roles as Murray the get closer we get to the draft.     For the "purity" of the position, my pick is Kenneth.

 

6 hours ago, Flugel said:

Ain't that the truth?! Neither does a LT that made 10 consecutive Pro Bowls at the position in terms of expertise about job requirements.

1 amendment I'll add to your point is "if you see enough tape on a guy."   I ran around here like a rooster on steroids after I watched videos of Mack Wilson's greatest moments.  What I'm getting at here during this time of year is sometimes we don't dig deep enough on the even the best of prospects.  I'm going to give you an example in a second on a guy I think should still be the #1 rated LT prospect (Andrew Thomas).  Having said that, the latter part of the video below finds a flaw with a pass pro fundamental/hand placement the narrator thinks is from a bad teaching (also illustrated via example with the RT confirming why he thinks it's from the teaching).  And who's that LG #66 modeling the FLABS (Flugel's Abs)?  Thatta boy!!!

 

I'm not sure what the bolded means?  JT is weeks late to my assessment of Wirfs and he arrived at the same conclusion I did.   You're welcome to scan back on this thread and check.

And I've seen what you're referring to with Andrew Thomas (the hand placement).  He's my #1 OT and what I like about his hands, while not always so much the placement, is the reach and impact on his strike.  I don't think his feet are JT type elite, and I don't think they ever will be.    But his feet, his hips and such will be adequate enough to fill the position nicely.  It's his strike that he compensates with to slow down edge rushers.  He times it well without losing his base and staying in sync.    Yes, there are times he leans at it a little or doesn't land as clean as a good coach would ask, but the raw tools are there and displayed...  just not on an every down basis.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Sure doesn't... but sometimes it fibs. Any player can have a bad game due to injury or a bad matchupyear.

That said it's refreshing to post here where tape aficionados have become more widespread over the past couple years.

 

Visited reddit for the first time in a long time when site went down the other day. If I had a nickel for every "Wirfs Combine" type post, then I'd have a quarter... some Becton backers as well. Few of these talk "tape".

Most tape-watching posters there seem to have joined Camp Thomas. Wills has a good share of supporters as well. Jones seems to be the under-watched prospect.

In order

- this is why I find it important to start at the beginning of the season and find as many games as humanly possible.

- Reddit is the "front page" of the internet.  With it comes a ton of traffic.  With a ton of opinions and traffic comes a ton of bad opinions from people just looking to echo what they see on TV, or haven't versed their eyes and mind into further grasping the fine details at multiple positions.  

- I still need to put more work on Jones.   But Houston's offense really makes it hard to make a satisfying assessment of him from the comfort of my chair.

 

4 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Just reread this and made me wonder... when has a prospect ever started out at OG and then moved to OT?

I've seen vets do it on an interim basis when a starting OT is hurt and the OL is shuffled, but can't think of a single instance of a starting OG moving on to be a starting OT.

Yanda.  But that was based on, like you said, shuffling of the OL.    I've little doubt he probably could have been a RT, but the guy was so elite inside...  no point in moving him unless you HAD to.

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2 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

I still need to put more work on Jones.   But Houston's offense really makes it hard to make a satisfying assessment of him from the comfort of my chair. 

I kept reading that about him, but when I finally found tape I did not find it to be true.

Plenty of pure pass sets where 2+ seconds of protection were required and plenty of ZBS to boot.

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2 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

I kept reading that about him, but when I finally found tape I did not find it to be true.

Plenty of pure pass sets where 2+ seconds of protection were required and plenty of ZBS to boot.

I've only gotten through the Oklahoma game so far on him.  A lot of screens, ball out passing, lateral action, etc etc.    I'm sure i'll find more the deeper I dig.

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A couple guys who have jumped out as value picks so far are 

OT- Josh Jones- if we miss out Thomas not a bad consolation prize.

DE- Alton Robinson- not a huge fan of this DE class. There are alot of 3rd round type of guys but Robinson is my favorite.

DT- Neville Gallimore- after watching his tape I wouldn't be suprised if he goes in the first. 

S- J.R. Reed- I really want Winfield but hes been discussed enough already. Reed is a late round pick that I think could compete for the FS job out of the gate.

LB- Jordyn Brooks- kind of 2 down guy on tape but he could contribute right away and is projected in the middle rounds.

RB- Cam Akers- you could argue hes the best back in the draft and most mocks I've seen have him going in the 3rd. Not a bad replacement for Hunt 

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48 minutes ago, Louisville Slugger said:

LB- Jordyn Brooks- kind of 2 down guy on tape but he could contribute right away and is projected in the middle rounds.

Jordyn Brooks is a lot like my lb pick in the second round with my stupid mock...(extra pick with a trade down) - Logan Wilson, Wyoming. Picked Wilson more for his pass coverage was a bit better. Wilson is more overlooked. But they are very similar.

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1 hour ago, Louisville Slugger said:

S- J.R. Reed- I really want Winfield but hes been discussed enough already. Reed is a late round pick that I think could compete for the FS job out of the gate.

Reed has been my emergency Safety since I started working the Draft sims. Agree on the starter potential, although I've pictured him in the SS role. Tough, kid...

 

Never have warmed to Winfield tho... hung up on his height I think.

Took to Cal's Ashtyn Davis right away as my FS... and have since added SIU's Chin to my wish list. Chin's risen past Davis in some of the rankings I see often.

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