Freddie fired

[Canton Dawg]

2 hours ago, Go Lers said:

These are just facts, do with them what you will...

This is my attempt to bring to light the glaring (and never discussed) problem that makes the Cleveland Browns the perennial butt of jokes. I'm going to compare the first 2 seasons of some legendary NFL coaches with Browns head coaches and the "churn and burn" mentality. Oh, and I'm only doing this from 1999 to present because this is a completely different franchise from the one that Modell stole from Cleveland back in the day. Sorry, not sorry.

The average tenure of a Cleveland Browns head coach is just 1.9 seasons (Please pause to let that sink in). Since that's nearly 2 full seasons I'll give the the records of other legendary head coaches' first 2 seasons to show why teams shouldn't give up on coaches so quickly. I'll also list their championship resume to really emphasize the point:

Bill Belichick:

• First 2 Seasons as Patriots HC: 5-11 in 2000, 11-5 in 2001
• 6 Super Bowl victories

Chuck Noll:

• First 2 Seasons as Steelers HC: 1-13 in 1969, 5-9 in 1970
• 4 Super Bowl victories

Bill Walsh:

• First 2 seasons as 49ers HC: 2-14 in 1979, 6-10 in 1980
• 3 Super Bowl victories

Jimmy Johnson:

• First 2 seasons as Cowboys HC: 1-15 in 1989, 7-9 in 1990
• 2 Super Bowl victories

You get the idea. Had these teams bailed on their head coaches after one season (like Cleveland so often does) the trophy cases in New England, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Dallas would look A LOT different today. Maybe this is an extreme comparison but my point is that these organizations didn't just stick with these guys, they actually f&@#ing build something that could last!!!

The point I'm trying to get across is the Browns need to stick with head coaches long enough to have a winning system and culture!

Still don't believe me?!? This will blow your mind . . . There have only been TWO Browns coaches that made it a full 3 seasons as the head coach. And ya know what they did in their third season? I'll tell ya what they did!! 9-7 record and playoff appearance in 2002, 10-6 record and nearly missed playoffs in 2007 (weird year). Are you sensing a theme yet?? New England has been doing this for 2 decades with great success, Pittsburgh has only had 3 coaches since mankind first walked on the moon they're alright.

Jimmy Haslam, if you're reading this (which I doubt) please, Please, PLEASE stick with a coach long enough to BUILD A SYSTEM, stop this endless rotation of quarterbacks and coordinators, and stop embarrassing Cleveland's football legacy.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk...

I’ll throw 2 names at you...George Siefert & Barry Switzer.

How long did it take those guys to achieve success?

[ATOM]

30 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

^ Likely true, but the Haslam's are going to have a role and some new face could come in and blow them away.

Harbaugh in BLT springs immediately to mind... and no one else. Turns out there's a reason why...

Article is from 2015 so maybe one of the newest HCs came from the ST Coord ranks, but none come to mind.

didnt pete carrol while at The Ohio State coach st ?

[Buck The Frowns]

I think Lou Saban would be a good fit. He coached everywhere, average gig about 2 years. That is a bit longer than the average Browns head coaching tenure but close enough. He also was a player under Paul Brown, which is always a plus.

Lou ruined the deal by dying about ten years ago, though.

[Neo]

Let me ask you, if they bring in Mike McCarthy, why would anyone be afraid of a "housecleaning"? Are Browns fans expectations so low that even after a 6-10 season people would be afraid of a house cleaning? Besides,  no matter who they bring in, our core players aren't going anywhere.

 

[flyingfooldoug]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Nothing wrong with a retread.   Here are some retreads:

Don Shula

Weeb Ewbank

George Allen

Dick Vermeil

Forrest Gregg

Dan Reeves

Bill Parcells

Marv Levy

Mike Holmgren

Mike Shanahan

Bill Belichick

Jon Gruden

Tom Coughlin

John Fox

Pete Carroll

All these guys either won or lost Super Bowls in their second  gig. 

And that would be why I like McCarthy. Good w/l record. Complacency and a personality clash with a star QB led to his departure. My opinion, he’s ripe for a comeback

 

[Neo]

2 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

And that would be why I like McCarthy. Good w/l record. Complacency and a personality clash with a star QB led to his departure. My opinion, he’s ripe for a comeback

 

He's the only viable option. Clear cut Head Coach with an impeccable resume. I can't understand why Jimmy Haslam isn't on his hands and knees with the Brinks truck behind him. I'm tired of ex coordinators with little or no experience at Head Coach.

[Browns149]

5 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

And that would be why I like McCarthy. Good w/l record. Complacency and a personality clash with a star QB led to his departure. My opinion, he’s ripe for a comeback

 

McCarthy is #1 on my list

McDaniels is #2

[jiggins7919]

17 hours ago, hoorta said:

If you wanted to see what a real pass rush looks like- I caught some of the 49ers Seahawks game.... 

Man, I really like watching the 49's! What a game. 

[jiggins7919]

16 hours ago, hoorta said:

Now, you have to wonder if the coaching was part of the problem  of Baker  going  from  an up and coming  sure fire franchise qb to total  garbage  in one year. 

I just remembered being so confident that Baker definitely would be our guy, and now I'm concerned. Ugh. I still think he can do it, but I'm less certain. 

[flyingfooldoug]

7 minutes ago, Browns149 said:

McCarthy is #1 on my list

McDaniels is #2

Ya but with the Haslams, we end up with Stew Padasso 

[Browns149]

14 minutes ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Ya but with the Haslams, we end up with Stew Padasso 

That’s definitely a BIG PROBLEM 

[Tour2ma]

I'm not going to pine for a HC who has been sitting idle for a year with a couple of hand-picked coordinators no one in the NFL ran after...

Not to mention that the team that fired that HC for going 7-9 and 6-9-1 in his last two seasons looked reborn on their way to 13-3 and a 1st-round bye.

 

1 hour ago, ATOM said:

didnt pete carrol while at The Ohio State coach st ?

He was 2ndary coach under Earl Bruce at tOSU... I don't seee any ST mentioned...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carroll#Collegiate_assistant_(1973–1983)

 

[Gunz41]

20 hours ago, The Gipper said:

 

Hmm, I guess you know you would lose that. I honestly don't care if you are on here or not. But it is very telling when I get on this board and just look in a couple threads and there you are arguing with someone about something.

Yes, the board IS for people having opinions. But maybe you actually don't realize some of the things you write. You are very often getting into it with others for differing opinions. It doesn't even matter if you actually are right a majority of the time, it's the way you come off when doing it. And it isn't just a select few who you do this with. Buddy I could absolutely make you look foolish with real football knowledge, as I am sure you could me with law stuff or traveling, but I don't feel like I should deliberately try to make someone look bad unless they bring it upon myself. 

I'll give you an easy example of something that pops in my head simply. In one of my posts to you, I finished it with God Bless. Instead of just leaving it alone, you had to put in a smartass comment about it.

I have no clue what these 3 things I am wrong about, and you may not realize or care, but yes you do come off akin to Gh**lie. And no, this is not just my opinion. But if you need just a shred of proof, just look at anyone of the times I have called you out on this type of thing. I get upvotes or whatever they are called, yet when you reply you dont. Maybe its because I know these people, oops never met a single person here. Never even been to Cleveland. 

I heard a good saying once, paraphrasing "if you have the same issue with multiple people, what's the common denominator?" For example, if someone has been married and divorced 5 times, the common denominator is them. 

Reason I haven't been on, besides having other things going on, is the constant negativity, conspiracy theories, and constant arguments. 

P.S.- I guess it makes you feel like a big boy to people names, including a p*say when you won't ever have to see them. And I am quite impressed. Using curse words on the internet makes you a real adult. At least that is what kids think. So bravo, you are the internet champion, the Browns Board champion, and the smartest guy on the board. 

And again, GOD BLESS 

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, ATOM said:

didnt pete carrol while at The Ohio State coach st ?

He won a couple of National titles at USC.....after he left the Patriots job. 

[Canton Dawg]

Pete Carroll is on his 3rd gig as an NFL head coach.

Not many guys gets three shots as HC.

[The Gipper]

55 minutes ago, Gunz41 said:

Hmm, I guess you know you would lose that. I honestly don't care if you are on here or not.

Out of 1000 posts placed on this board since the last time you logged on....it is only one by me that you replied to.  Your actions speak for yourself.

But it is very telling when I get on this board and just look in a couple threads and there you are arguing with someone about something.

Yes, I am arguing with them, they are arguing with me, they are all arguing with each other.  Welcome to a sports chatboard.

Yes, the board IS for people having opinions. But maybe you actually don't realize some of the things you write. You are very often getting into it with others for differing opinions. It doesn't even matter if you actually are right a majority of the time, it's the way you come off when doing it. And it isn't just a select few who you do this with.

And no one cares how you feel about any of that.  They really don't.

Buddy I could absolutely make you look foolish with real football knowledge,

Yea....your two posts in 4 months have been full of football knowledge.

as I am sure you could me with law stuff or traveling, but I don't feel like I should deliberately try to make someone look bad unless they bring it upon myself. 

Go ahead....give us your Xs and Os.  You probably know more about that than me. (and still, no on will care).

I'll give you an easy example of something that pops in my head simply. In one of my posts to you, I finished it with God Bless. Instead of just leaving it alone, you had to put in a smartass comment about it.

Like I did, down below.  Your problem is that you think everything is a smarty pants # comment, even if it isn't. (#edited so as not to offend you with profanity) 

I have no clue what these 3 things I am wrong about, and you may not realize or care, but yes you do come off akin to Gh**lie.

The fact that you say that shows that you have not been around and have no clue.

And no, this is not just my opinion. But if you need just a shred of proof, just look at anyone of the times I have called you out on this type of thing. I get upvotes or whatever they are called, yet when you reply you dont. Maybe its because I know these people, oops never met a single person here. Never even been to Cleveland. 

Why are you even bothering if you cannot even come here at times?

I heard a good saying once, paraphrasing "if you have the same issue with multiple people, what's the common denominator?" For example, if someone has been married and divorced 5 times, the common denominator is them. 

Oh, I know, I don't suffer fools lightly.  Maybe I should. Not in my nature.  For instance...I simply could not have responded to you here, and your name would have gone into the ether, and no one would remember you.  Your identity here, apparently is tied to me.  That was your choice, not mine.

Reason I haven't been on, besides having other things going on, is the constant negativity, conspiracy theories, and constant arguments. 

You get argued with because you have some poor opinions.  I can't really say that I take part in any of the rest....unless you really think that the  negativity towards Ferd was my limited  to me. (and I am not sure what you mean about conspiracy theories....I guess you have to take them up with whomever has those)

P.S.- I guess it makes you feel like a big boy to people names, including a p*say when you won't ever have to see them. And I am quite impressed. Using curse words on the internet makes you a real adult. At least that is what kids think. So bravo, you are the internet champion, the Browns Board champion, and the smartest guy on the board. 

Complaining about profanity on the internet?  I guess I didn't realize I was dealing with an infant.  In that light, I will try to watch my tongue so that you don't get in trouble with your mom. 

And again, GOD BLESS 

Which God?  And I mean that seriously.   It is not my job to try to discern your religious preferences. 

[The Gipper]

20 minutes ago, Canton Dawg said:

Pete Carroll is on his 3rd gig as an NFL head coach.

Not many guys gets three shots as HC.

Gee....he was a one year and done with the Jets.    Was he an argument for keeping Fred?

[Gunz41]

2 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Which God?  And I mean that seriously.   It is not my job to try to discern your religious preferences. 

You obviously have missed the point pal. But then again, in your mind the ONLY reason I come on here is because of you. I didn't read weekly. But then again, you didn't want to take the challenge, so your actions speak as well.

I couldn't care less about you using a curse word, but exactly what is the point in calling someone a pussy? Does it make someone feel tough? I just don't get it. If I were to call you that does that mean I am tougher than you?

And no, I would think that you being so smart with semantics and legal jargon that you could discern a discussion and argument. When you have to resort to calling people idiots, telling them how wrong they are, etc. I take that as being unwilling to listen to another side. That happens A LOT in society today. And on occasions (no not all the time) when you post something incorrectly, when called out instead of just saying yep I was wrong, you try to finagle your way out of being wrong. I have even seen on here where you have blamed the other person why you were wrong. I know I have been wrong before, but you will never see me trying to explain why I was wrong. 

Again NONE of this is just me saying it, as the same things have been said by others in the past. 

I'm sure it is because I am just reading you wrong, we are always the one instigating it, etc. You have absolutely no culpability in any of it. 

But all you have to do is go back to the reason I replied in this thread. The condescending way in which you went on about Brady, Burrow, etc. 

Ahh, there it is, apparently I am not as big a fan as you because I don't live or been to Cleveland. It doesn't matter if I or anyone else has been, I have as much right as you. But the ENTIRE point of that part went over your head. I will absolutely GUARANTEE that if you polled the membership here that a majority would have issue with the way you post sometimes. They would also backup what is being said here. But I guess that is a me problem and a them problem.

 

But since YOU reference it, show me ONE poor opinion? 

As for your last question. God, Jesus father. The one who sent his son to die for ALL of our sins. I pray that before you perish that you accept that. I am sure you have a smart comment there, but on THAT I will act like you and not change my opinion no matter what you say.

[hoorta]

8 hours ago, Richiswhere said:

So whats the number of Browns coaches that have been fired that have go on to become legendary with another team?

As was pointed out Bill B wasn't fired by the Browns but by Schmodell after the move, who will go down in history as the only owner to fire TWO HOF coaches.   The only former Browns coach to have somewhat of a successful post Browns resume is Marty Schottenheimer, who essentially quit because of F-artie. I suppose I should lay my opinion of Rob Chudinski getting axed too soon to rest, because if he was truly HC material, he should at least have gotten a HC  offer or two by now.  

7 hours ago, The Gipper said:

A few  things:

A.  Bill Belichick was not fired as the coach of the Cleveland Browns franchise.  He was fired as coach of the Baltimore Modell  (unnamed as yet)  franchise.  That is a fact.

B.   The other guys you mention,  Noll, Walsh, Johnson.....had shit for talent on the rosters they inherited...and they had a big hand in bringing the talent and developing it during the first few years of their existence.    It was clearly evident with those guys, that despite their losing records that they knew what they were doing.    The same is not true here. It has been clearly evident that the guys we have dumped deserved to be dumped...and they were not ultimately qualified.

C. You mention the vast minority of situations.   4 coaches in the last  50 years have accomplished what you claim.    That means hundreds have not.  Building a system is great....if you have the product to build that system with.....and that product comes around very rarely. Those guys are the vast exception to the rule...NOT the norm.  Do you want the names of those  100+ other coaches that didn't do a thing? 

Exactly Gipper. there's no comparison between the  Noll, Johnson situations and Freddie. The first two were in the midst of massive rebuilds with talent deficient teams. To put it in a race car analogy, by comparison- Freddie got handed the keys to a Formula One playoff ready race car-  and he kept driving it into the wall time after time. But to be fair to Freddie- he got his previous driving experience at Malibu Grand Prix.    

What amazes me is the multiple times guys like Romeo Crennell and Pat Shur-loss keep on getting multiple tries for redemption- and continue to prove they can't coach their way out of a paper bag. 

[Tour2ma]

Were this a grace and poise competition it would have been stopped long ago...

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, hoorta said:

What amazes me is the multiple times guys like Romeo Crennell and Pat Shur-loss keep on getting multiple tries for redemption- and continue to prove they can't coach their way out of a paper bag. 

Not that hard to understand, h. Both have really had only two bites at the HC apple and in between those bites had strong stints as Coordinators.

Neither has the kind of "driven" personality I'd want in a HC, but different Owners/ Organizations like different types.

[Dutch Oven]

6 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Not to mention that the team that fired that HC for going 7-9 and 6-9-1 in his last two seasons looked reborn on their way to 13-3 and a 1st-round bye.

Andy Reid and the Kansas City Chiefs say "howdy". 😉

[30yearbrownsfan]

11 hours ago, The Gipper said:

A few  things:

A.  Bill Belichick was not fired as the coach of the Cleveland Browns franchise.  He was fired as coach of the Baltimore Modell  (unnamed as yet)  franchise.  That is a fact.

B.   The other guys you mention,  Noll, Walsh, Johnson.....had shit for talent on the rosters they inherited...and they had a big hand in bringing the talent and devolping it during the first few years of their existence.    It was clearly evident with those guys, that despite their losing records that they knew what they were doing.    The same is not true here. It has been clearly evident that the guys we have dumped deserved to be dumped...and they were not ultimately qualified.

C. You mention the vast minority of situations.   4 coaches in the last  50 years have accomplished what you claim.    That means hundreds have not.  Building a system is great....if you have the product to build that system with.....and that product comes around very rarely. Those guys are the vast exception to the rule...NOT the norm.  Do you want the names of those  100+ other coaches that didn't do a thing? 

Exactly, since the browns come back in 99 how many these coaches that got fired went on to be anything like the one's he mentioned? How many chances we give these coaches isn't the problem. The problem is the one's we hired to start with. 

[Flugel]

On 12/29/2019 at 6:50 PM, Gunz41 said:

Don't sweat it man. He always thinks and tries to act as if he is the smartest guy in the room/thread.

And like usual will double down on things he is wrong about.

I'm also pretty sure he STILL has NO idea who Joe Brady is. I also think he saw Brady and referenced 6th round thinking about TB12.

And for someone who talks so much about his travels, to not have a clue why Burrow had Burreaux on his jersey shows just how clueless he is

Thanks Gunz!  Well said!   

This anger from Gips toward me lingers from his promise gone terribly wrong that Lamar Jackson will suck this year.  He also assured me that losing the 2019 version of T. Suggs to Arizona (released/discontinued) + the 2019 version of C.J. Mosley to the Jets (IR for all but 1 or 2 games) + the 2019 version of Eric Weddle to the Rams (a season that now has him thinking retirement).  Does that sound like a FO that understood the difference between depreciation and upside? Oh yeah, and they also let Flacco go start for Denver while Baltimore went 14-2 with him out of the way. 

The argument started with Gipper correcting me that in 2018 when the Ratbirds started 4-5 with Joe Flacco and winning 6 of the last 7 games with Lamar Jackson that Jackson wasn't the reason they improved drastically at all.  He had no idea at all what extending drives past 3 downs can do for time of possession, rushing stats, resting defense/giving them fresh legs and just winning. Nope!  I was told he didn't play defense so he didn't tackle anyone or make the least impact at all for them.  For a guy that likes to announce he works in a courtroom as often as possible, he sure doesn't listen/read the inconvenient truth.   So, ever since Baltimore started 4-5 with Flacco in 2018 and have gone 20-3 since with Jackson being the leading MVP candidate - Gips wants everyone to know they would be playing just as well with Flacco on both sides of the ball.  Just ask Denver!

The irony of it all was I began the post saying I was wrong about Jackson the day after he was drafted (and he's obviously the real deal) when Gipper thought he's correct everything I said with clear cut evidence he knows nothing about the game he corrects people about constantly in here.  Baltimore is the last team I want to see winning the division and finishing 14-2 with an MVP candidate at QB.  That said, I gotta be honest about what I'm seeing from a team that understands how and why they win.

[Flugel]

10 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Which God?  And I mean that seriously.   It is not my job to try to discern your religious preferences. 

You've made a complete fool out of yourself like you always do Gipper. 

Don't all people that work in a court of law post perverted pictures of teenage girls on football message boards like Gipper has done forever?

Is everybody ready to watch Gipper close another thread with about 4-5 more pages arguing with people like a sorority girl on the rag?  By all means, stayed tuned.  And did he stay on topic again?  😄

 

[flyingfooldoug]

Haters gotta hate

[Canton Dawg]

14 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Gee....he was a one year and done with the Jets.    Was he an argument for keeping Fred?

Not in the least.

If a Head Coach doesn’t possess basic clock management skills, he’s not qualified to be a Head Coach.

[SdBacker80]

17 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

Man, I really like watching the 49's! What a game. 

I love Shannys offense.

And one offense they block the $&@“@ out of defenders at every level.  I sat endzone browns Niners game I was thoroughly amazed at how well their big guys, TEs and WRs block downfield. 
 

 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

You've made a complete fool out of yourself like you always do Gipper. 

No....why?   Because I did not bow and cowtow to you and Gunz religious preferences and proselytizing?  

If you want this to turn into a religious debate, I guess I can.  All I can say is that I respect whatever religion you and he want to be...But I suspect that similar respect would not be give by you all if I were to proselytize for some other religious faith than the one you all demand of everyone. 

Don't all people that work in a court of law post perverted pictures of teenage girls on football message boards like Gipper has done forever?

Is everybody ready to watch Gipper close another thread with about 4-5 more pages arguing with people like a sorority girl on the rag?  By all means, stayed tuned.  And did he stay on topic again?  😄

 

So?  Do you really object to the photos of women on here?   Because half the people on here post them. So, I assume that you have the same objection to Z and everyone else? 

 

[The Gipper]

4 hours ago, Flugel said:

Thanks Gunz!  Well said!   

This anger from Gips toward me lingers

I have absolutely NO anger toward you. None whatsoever.  Not sure where you got that. I am forever grateful to you for opening you home to me and Larry on our trip to Nashville. 

 

from his promise gone terribly wrong that Lamar Jackson will suck this year.

That was just a personal hope....certainly NOT something for me to be mad at you about. As far as I am concerned, we are just having a friendly football fan argument.   (and that is the same for Gunz....he is just another guy that as far as I am concerned I have a friendly football argument with.  But he seems to want to make it personal. ...something I just fluff off or counter with absurdities)

  He also assured me that losing the 2019 version of T. Suggs to Arizona (released/discontinued) + the 2019 version of C.J. Mosley to the Jets (IR for all but 1 or 2 games) + the 2019 version of Eric Weddle to the Rams (a season that now has him thinking retirement).  Does that sound like a FO that understood the difference between depreciation and upside? Oh yeah, and they also let Flacco go start for Denver while Baltimore went 14-2 with him out of the way. 

Don't you think that made a lot of sense at the time?  They did lose all that talent. I didn't dream that.   Did anyone on here, in their preseason predictions think that the Ravens would end up with the best record in the league?

The argument started with Gipper correcting me that in 2018 when the Ratbirds started 4-5 with Joe Flacco and winning 6 of the last 7 games with Lamar Jackson that Jackson wasn't the reason they improved drastically at all.  He had no idea at all what extending drives past 3 downs can do for time of possession, rushing stats, resting defense/giving them fresh legs and just winning. Nope!  I was told he didn't play defense so he didn't tackle anyone or make the least impact at all for them.  For a guy that likes to announce he works in a courtroom as often as possible, he sure doesn't listen/read the inconvenient truth.   So, ever since Baltimore started 4-5 with Flacco in 2018 and have gone 20-3 since with Jackson being the leading MVP candidate - Gips wants everyone to know they would be playing just as well with Flacco on both sides of the ball.  Just ask Denver!

 

The irony of it all was I began the post saying I was wrong about Jackson the day after he was drafted (and he's obviously the real deal) when Gipper thought he's correct everything I said with clear cut evidence he knows nothing about the game he corrects people about constantly in here.  Baltimore is the last team I want to see winning the division and finishing 14-2 with an MVP candidate at QB.  That said, I gotta be honest about what I'm seeing from a team that understands how and why they win.

Well, clearly I and just about everyone else,  may have been totally wrong about Jackson.....but I based my opinion on two things:  A.  That he had not shown to be a very good passer as a QB, and he didn't, and B. that I thought his style of play would get him crunched and injured...it hasn't.    But I was going by what I saw at the time.   

But, again...show me anyone that thought before this season began that they thought that he would be MVP caliber this year.  I think there are some prediction threads out there where everyone here had the chance to predict their MVP...Did anyone, at all, even you, predict that.