Freddie fired

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

• Baker Mayfield 
• Nick Chubb
• Jarvis Landry
• Odell Beckham Jr. 
• Denzel Ward
• Greedy Williams
• Damarious Randall 

But yes, let's get mad and call for John Dorsey's head because Genard Avery, a dude named Carl and Austin whatever the fuck his name is aren't here.

[tiamat63]

Bieniemy was a name I was hoping the Browns would take a long look at last year.      Sucks they feel so dead set on a re-tread.

[Ibleedbrown]

30 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

But what do those "FO guys" really impact compared to changing the HC, which usually means the complete turnover of the coaching staff.

Other than the players themselves? I guess not much, but that can be a big part of it where over time the new GM feels inclined to supplant much of the roster with “his guys”.

And honestly, l don’t really think that’s as big as a deal as many make it out to be. Any smart GM should go with the best players they can get. But other variables convolute it all, like any given player may have been a good fit with one coach and his scheme, but maybe not another coaches’ scheme. I almost think Avery was a casualty of this.

It’s just decision makers being forced to adapt to each other, and it takes time and maybe a little trial and error. Ownership is a part of this mix too, so you got 3 groups (ownership, GM and FO, and the coaches) who all have to get on the same page with one another, so by keeping 2 of the 3 in tact at least it’s theoretically 2 groups that are already on the same page and they just gotta get the coaches into the same book.

[SdBacker80]

The new HCs D coordinator selection is just as important.

The G Will Parking your safety in Parma didn’t work.  And this Wilks scheme is a total disaster as well.  

And if we go 3-4 we may have to spend a draft getting equipped to play it.

 

 

[LBC mike]

We should run a hybrid front with our players.

[ATOM]

32 minutes ago, LBC mike said:

We should run a hybrid front with our players.

like the ufo  

[tiamat63]

People still getting hung up on the 34 43 44 cliche'.  

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

• [7:03 a.m. ET]: Ron Rivera expected to be named new Redskins head coach
• [8:01 a.m. ET]: Panthers request permission to interview Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy, per Ian Rapoport of NFL Network
• [8:36 a.m. ET]: Browns request permission to interview Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, Panthers expected to seek permission as well, per Adam Schefter of ESPN
• [9:10 a.m. ET]: Pat Shurmur fired by Giants after compiling 9-23 record in two seasons.

My Redskins fan mentioned Washington had been talking to Rivera for weeks.  Also, Bruce Allen might be out as GM.  

So, old Shur-loss is another casualty on Black Monday. Start a poll who's worse as a HC, Freddie or Pat?   

2 hours ago, Bigalow80 said:

I'm going to put my opinion out there.

Please NO to Urban Meyer. That's a bad idea just waiting to happen. I'm very skeptical about Josh McDaniels. I would have loved to have brought in Rivera and kept the rest of the staff in tact, however, that does not seem like it is going to happen this time. This team needs a leader and someone who will hold them responsible. I'm not sure McDaniels can do that. I think front office people like him more than players and other coaches around the league. McCarthy would be interesting but I'm nervous he is going to come in and clean house. Does a college coach count? Is it Lincoln Riley or bust? I wonder how that would go over in the locker room. Rhule? The browns had Matt Campbell of ISU really high on their list last year. Can any of them come in and build a culture of winning?

 

I've mentioned elsewhere McCarthy already has his potential OC and DC in place.... It would be a total house cleaning. Not that I was overly impressed with Wilkes. No opinion on Monken, as Freddie effectively handcuffed and muzzled him. That said, I hope we can keep Stump Mitchell around as running back coach. Chubb loves and respects him. 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

8 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

People still getting hung up on the 34 43 44 cliche'.  

For real. 

43/34 doesn't matter. The biggest difference in defensive philosophies is gap responsibility, not front alignment. 43/34 doesn't matter, it's just something fans get hung up on.

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

3 minutes ago, hoorta said:

My Redskins fan mentioned Washington had been talking to Rivera for weeks.  Also, Bruce Allen might be out as GM.  

So, old Shur-loss is another casualty on Black Monday. Start a poll who's worse as a HC, Freddie or Pat?   

I've mentioned elsewhere McCarthy already has his potential OC and DC in place.... It would be a total house cleaning. Not that I was overly impressed with Wilkes. No opinion on Monken, as Freddie effectively handcuffed and muzzled him. That said, I hope we can keep Stump Mitchell around as running back coach. Chubb loves and respects him. 

 

Allen is out entirely. Rivera is expected to sign soon and the rumor is he would bring Wilks in as DC, which is great news for us. 

 

I think it's a whole house cleaning regardless of who we hire. Defensively, everyone will (and definitely should) be let go. Offensively, the only way I see Monken staying is if we hire a coach who's going to implement an Air Raid-inspired offense, but that doesn't seem likely. Adam Henry might be safe just because I expect Odell and Jarvis to go to bat for him.

[Go Lers]

These are just facts, do with them what you will...

This is my attempt to bring to light the glaring (and never discussed) problem that makes the Cleveland Browns the perennial butt of jokes. I'm going to compare the first 2 seasons of some legendary NFL coaches with Browns head coaches and the "churn and burn" mentality. Oh, and I'm only doing this from 1999 to present because this is a completely different franchise from the one that Modell stole from Cleveland back in the day. Sorry, not sorry.

The average tenure of a Cleveland Browns head coach is just 1.9 seasons (Please pause to let that sink in). Since that's nearly 2 full seasons I'll give the the records of other legendary head coaches' first 2 seasons to show why teams shouldn't give up on coaches so quickly. I'll also list their championship resume to really emphasize the point:

Bill Belichick:

• First 2 Seasons as Patriots HC: 5-11 in 2000, 11-5 in 2001
• 6 Super Bowl victories

Chuck Noll:

• First 2 Seasons as Steelers HC: 1-13 in 1969, 5-9 in 1970
• 4 Super Bowl victories

Bill Walsh:

• First 2 seasons as 49ers HC: 2-14 in 1979, 6-10 in 1980
• 3 Super Bowl victories

Jimmy Johnson:

• First 2 seasons as Cowboys HC: 1-15 in 1989, 7-9 in 1990
• 2 Super Bowl victories

You get the idea. Had these teams bailed on their head coaches after one season (like Cleveland so often does) the trophy cases in New England, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Dallas would look A LOT different today. Maybe this is an extreme comparison but my point is that these organizations didn't just stick with these guys, they actually f&@#ing build something that could last!!!

The point I'm trying to get across is the Browns need to stick with head coaches long enough to have a winning system and culture!

Still don't believe me?!? This will blow your mind . . . There have only been TWO Browns coaches that made it a full 3 seasons as the head coach. And ya know what they did in their third season? I'll tell ya what they did!! 9-7 record and playoff appearance in 2002, 10-6 record and nearly missed playoffs in 2007 (weird year). Are you sensing a theme yet?? New England has been doing this for 2 decades with great success, Pittsburgh has only had 3 coaches since mankind first walked on the moon they're alright.

Jimmy Haslam, if you're reading this (which I doubt) please, Please, PLEASE stick with a coach long enough to BUILD A SYSTEM, stop this endless rotation of quarterbacks and coordinators, and stop embarrassing Cleveland's football legacy.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk...

[hoorta]

My thoughts on Freddie- a decent good guy who gave it 110%, except his 110% effort was about 50% of what's required of a good\great NFL coach. The Cleveland com poll fan opinion is about 90% say it was time to go.  As to coaching blunders- 

1) Totaled by the Titans, 2) Rammed by the Rams (who were suffering a SB hangover), 3) sent out to sea by the Seahawks, 4) Shuffle passed off by the Patriots, 5) Bucked by a Broncos practice squad QB, 6) Ducked by  a Steelers Duck and mash unit, 7) Disastered in the Desert, 8- Run over by the Ravens, 9) Bungled by the Bengals with a comatose performance that sent Freddie packing. 

You have to wonder how many of those games could have turned out differently with a little more luck and better coaching. Four out of nine gets the Browns in the playoffs.... 

And what was it with the Njoku thing?  And a few other personnel head scratchers..... 

[ATOM]

14 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

Allen is out entirely. Rivera is expected to sign soon and the rumor is he would bring Wilks in as DC, which is great news for us. 

 

I think it's a whole house cleaning regardless of who we hire. Defensively, everyone will (and definitely should) be let go. Offensively, the only way I see Monken staying is if we hire a coach who's going to implement an Air Raid-inspired offense, but that doesn't seem likely. Adam Henry might be safe just because I expect Odell and Jarvis to go to bat for him.

st coach should also stay

[Tour2ma]

1 hour ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Any smart GM should go with the best players they can get.

That's the key... smart overcoming ego.

18 minutes ago, hoorta said:

 Bruce Allen might be out as GM. 

President... but regardless the word is he's gone. While he moved Snyder a step away form the day-to-day.... a huge plus... apparently it turned out that Allen was a flaming ass in his own right.

[Unsympathetic]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

And this Wilks scheme is a total disaster as well. 

We knew Wilks' scheme was a disaster from his time in Arizona, yet "had" to go through with the hire? Seriously, everywhere he goes they just make excuses for him.

[Richiswhere]

So whats the number of Browns coaches that have been fired that have go on to become legendary with another team?

[MLD Woody]

Yes, if only we let Hue have that full 3rd season so he could get us to the playoffs....

[ATOM]

5 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

We knew Wilks' scheme was a disaster from his time in Arizona, yet "had" to go through with the hire? Seriously, everywhere he goes they just make excuses for him.

rumor has it that Rivera when hired will bring him in as they worked well together well in the past

[Tour2ma]

22 minutes ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

For real. 

43/34 doesn't matter. The biggest difference in defensive philosophies is gap responsibility, not front alignment. 43/34 doesn't matter, it's just something fans get hung up on.

Then color me hung up....

Roster composition is impacted. Physical demands of the DL and OLB differ and so do the physical makeup of players.

DTs differ from NTs... DEs from DEs...

4 minutes ago, ATOM said:

st coach should also stay

Long history under some damn good HCs. Our STs were one very disciplined unit... very few penalties even of the dreaded block n the back variety.

Makes me think the guy should get an interview.

[The Gipper]

43 minutes ago, Go Lers said:

These are just facts, do with them what you will...

This is my attempt to bring to light the glaring (and never discussed) problem that makes the Cleveland Browns the perennial butt of jokes. I'm going to compare the first 2 seasons of some legendary NFL coaches with Browns head coaches and the "churn and burn" mentality. Oh, and I'm only doing this from 1999 to present because this is a completely different franchise from the one that Modell stole from Cleveland back in the day. Sorry, not sorry.

The average tenure of a Cleveland Browns head coach is just 1.9 seasons (Please pause to let that sink in). Since that's nearly 2 full seasons I'll give the the records of other legendary head coaches' first 2 seasons to show why teams shouldn't give up on coaches so quickly. I'll also list their championship resume to really emphasize the point:

Bill Belichick:

• First 2 Seasons as Patriots HC: 5-11 in 2000, 11-5 in 2001
• 6 Super Bowl victories

Chuck Noll:

• First 2 Seasons as Steelers HC: 1-13 in 1969, 5-9 in 1970
• 4 Super Bowl victories

Bill Walsh:

• First 2 seasons as 49ers HC: 2-14 in 1979, 6-10 in 1980
• 3 Super Bowl victories

Jimmy Johnson:

• First 2 seasons as Cowboys HC: 1-15 in 1989, 7-9 in 1990
• 2 Super Bowl victories

You get the idea. Had these teams bailed on their head coaches after one season (like Cleveland so often does) the trophy cases in New England, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, and Dallas would look A LOT different today. Maybe this is an extreme comparison but my point is that these organizations didn't just stick with these guys, they actually f&@#ing build something that could last!!!

The point I'm trying to get across is the Browns need to stick with head coaches long enough to have a winning system and culture!

Still don't believe me?!? This will blow your mind . . . There have only been TWO Browns coaches that made it a full 3 seasons as the head coach. And ya know what they did in their third season? I'll tell ya what they did!! 9-7 record and playoff appearance in 2002, 10-6 record and nearly missed playoffs in 2007 (weird year). Are you sensing a theme yet?? New England has been doing this for 2 decades with great success, Pittsburgh has only had 3 coaches since mankind first walked on the moon they're alright.

Jimmy Haslam, if you're reading this (which I doubt) please, Please, PLEASE stick with a coach long enough to BUILD A SYSTEM, stop this endless rotation of quarterbacks and coordinators, and stop embarrassing Cleveland's football legacy.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk...

A few  things:

A.  Bill Belichick was not fired as the coach of the Cleveland Browns franchise.  He was fired as coach of the Baltimore Modell  (unnamed as yet)  franchise.  That is a fact.

B.   The other guys you mention,  Noll, Walsh, Johnson.....had shit for talent on the rosters they inherited...and they had a big hand in bringing the talent and devolping it during the first few years of their existence.    It was clearly evident with those guys, that despite their losing records that they knew what they were doing.    The same is not true here. It has been clearly evident that the guys we have dumped deserved to be dumped...and they were not ultimately qualified.

C. You mention the vast minority of situations.   4 coaches in the last  50 years have accomplished what you claim.    That means hundreds have not.  Building a system is great....if you have the product to build that system with.....and that product comes around very rarely. Those guys are the vast exception to the rule...NOT the norm.  Do you want the names of those  100+ other coaches that didn't do a thing? 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Bigalow80 said:

I'm going to put my opinion out there.

Please NO to Urban Meyer. That's a bad idea just waiting to happen. I'm very skeptical about Josh McDaniels. I would have loved to have brought in Rivera and kept the rest of the staff in tact, however, that does not seem like it is going to happen this time. This team needs a leader and someone who will hold them responsible. I'm not sure McDaniels can do that. I think front office people like him more than players and other coaches around the league. McCarthy would be interesting but I'm nervous he is going to come in and clean house. Does a college coach count? Is it Lincoln Riley or bust? I wonder how that would go over in the locker room. Rhule? The browns had Matt Campbell of ISU really high on their list last year. Can any of them come in and build a culture of winning?

One bit I keep reading about is the increased role of Depodesta and how his power may grow within the front office. I'm curious to see how this will play out. I know part of the reason Adam Berry left and went to Philadelphia (I hear he is in the running for the Jacksonville GM job) is because Dorsey completely skewed the interview process to Freddie. He was not thrilled about that and jumped went Philly offered. I wonder if Dorsey is going to be much more handcuffed this time around. Honestly, I hope so. His flaws which were his downfall in KC, maybe showing here in Cleveland. Great talent evaluator but does not know how to build a "team", hard to work with, keeps everything to himself, his way or the highway type ...Could all just be speculating but he does need to be held accountable for this year. 

I think the firing of Freddie, which I suspect to a certain extent was forced on him...is part of the "holding Dorsey" accountable aspect.  

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

So much so that if you believe La Canfora we were contacting candidates before Freddie knew he was gone.

How the hell is that display of a total lack of respect supposed to attract the best talent?

" CBS Sports NFL Insiders Jason La Canfora reported that the team had been sending out feelers and making calls to potential coaching candidates over the past few days, which definitely wasn't a good sign for Kitchens, who is now out of a job."

Don't believe for a moment that  the belief that  so and so ex coach of Team Z was disrespected by his team....would be any reason whatsoever for any potential HC to refuse to look at a job if interest is shown in him for that job.  That is just such an overblown, false, concept as to be unbelievable.    There are only 32 NFL jobs.    There may be only  5 available in any given year.  Anyone with aspirations to be an NFL HC will look at whatever may be out there. 

 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

• [7:03 a.m. ET]: Ron Rivera expected to be named new Redskins head coach
• [8:01 a.m. ET]: Panthers request permission to interview Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy, per Ian Rapoport of NFL Network
• [8:36 a.m. ET]: Browns request permission to interview Patriots offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels, Panthers expected to seek permission as well, per Adam Schefter of ESPN
• [9:10 a.m. ET]: Pat Shurmur fired by Giants after compiling 9-23 record in two seasons.

Ahh....first I have heard of the Shurmur firing....which, of course, was inevitable from the day he was hired.   I guess the Giants should have called Browns fans about that. 

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

Bieniemy was a name I was hoping the Browns would take a long look at last year.      Sucks they feel so dead set on a re-tread.

Nothing wrong with a retread.   Here are some retreads:

Don Shula

Weeb Ewbank

George Allen

Dick Vermeil

Forrest Gregg

Dan Reeves

Bill Parcells

Marv Levy

Mike Holmgren

Mike Shanahan

Bill Belichick

Jon Gruden

Tom Coughlin

John Fox

Pete Carroll

All these guys either won or lost Super Bowls in their second  gig. 

[ATOM]

33 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Then color me hung up....

Roster composition is impacted. Physical demands of the DL and OLB differ and so do the physical makeup of players.

DTs differ from NTs... DEs from DEs...

Long history under some damn good HCs. Our STs were one very disciplined unit... very few penalties even of the dreaded block n the back variety.

Makes me think the guy should get an interview.

lots of good coachs got their start as st coach

don't they normally work with the bottom of the roster with both offensive and defensive players ? and looky what he did with them

[Ibleedbrown]

I can’t help but think since Dorsey got burned trying to go with an unknown in Kitchens that he’s going to play it safe this time. A retread seems very possible. 

[Tour2ma]

It's not as if we haven't given HCs 3rd years.

After sneaking into the playoffs in his 2nd year we gave Butch a 3rd and 4th and saw the talent dwindle and team crash. Butch's problem wasn't coaching... it was GMing... a duty that was handed to him his 2nd season with us... a duty that would never successfully be rested away. It's noteworthy that Butch assembled the best staff we'd seen since Belichick. Here it is....

Quote

Offensive Coordinator: Bruce Arians

Defensive Coordinator: Dave Campo

Other Notable Asst.: Todd Bowles (Secondary (nickel package)), Chuck Pagano (Secondary), Clancy Pendergast (Linebackers), Terry Robiskie (Wide Receivers) and Carl Smith (Quarterbacks)

We've even given a 3rd on faith and were rewarded with the best season since our return in '07 when Crennel posted a playoff-missing, 10-6 season. Of course that was DA's miracle season... Braylon's, too. However, '08 saw a 4-12 pratfall.

 

There have been other HCs that IMO deserved third seasons. Hue ain't on my list.

• I've always thought Mangini deserved a 3rd year. It was a close call, but he wasn't the Walrus' guy so go he must.
• Also thought Pettine deserved a 3rd shot, but he got Farmered. Turns out tho it was Pet's rookie OC who was the one that got away... or was Farmered away. Remember the PowerPoint?

 

 

[The Gipper]

5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

It's not as if we haven't given HCs 3rd years.

After sneaking into the playoffs in his 2nd year we gave Butch a 3rd and 4th and saw the talent dwindle and team crash. Butch's problem wasn't coaching... it was GMing... a duty that was handed to him his 2nd season with us... a duty that would never successfully be rested away. It's noteworthy that Butch assembled the best staff we'd seen since Belichick. Here it is....

We've even given a 3rd on faith and were rewarded with the best season since our return in '07 when Crennel posted a playoff-missing, 10-6 season. Of course that was DA's miracle season... Braylon's, too. However, '08 saw a 4-12 pratfall.

 

There have been other HCs that IMO deserved third seasons. Hue ain't on my list.

• I've always thought Mangini deserved a 3rd year. It was a close call, but he wasn't the Walrus' guy so go he must.
• Also thought Pettine deserved a 3rd shot, but he got Farmered. Turns out tho it was Pet's rookie OC who was the one that got away... or was Farmered away. Remember the PowerPoint?

 

 

Agree with the Mangini/Pettine situations, basically.    But Holmgren wanted "his guy"...and gave us fucking Shurmur (worse than Fred?)....and Pettine not only got Farmered, but didn't he also get   Johnnyfucked? 

[Tour2ma]

^ Likely true, but the Haslam's are going to have a role and some new face could come in and blow them away.

1 hour ago, ATOM said:

lots of good coachs got their start as st coach

don't they normally work with the bottom of the roster with both offensive and defensive players ? and looky what he did with them

Harbaugh in BLT springs immediately to mind... and no one else. Turns out there's a reason why...

Quote

Yet with the exception of Baltimore’s John Harbaugh, no one whose main area of football expertise is special teams has gotten that opportunity in more than two decades.

The snub makes little sense on the surface. Special teams constitute roughly 22 percent of all plays in an NFL game. The duties inherent in leading those units far better mimic the responsibilities that come with being a head coach.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-head-coaching-openings-special-teams-dick-vermeil-john-harbaugh-bill-cowher-mike-ditka-121615

Article is from 2015 so maybe one of the newest HCs came from the ST Coord ranks, but none come to mind.

[Canton Dawg]

4 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Agree with the Mangini/Pettine situations, basically.    But Holmgren wanted "his guy"...and gave us fucking Shurmur (worse than Fred?)....and Pettine not only got Farmered, but didn't he also get   Johnnyfucked? 

Yes, Pettine managed to get more with less.

He managed a 7-9 season with Hoyer & Manziel as QB’s.

His biggest mistake was hiring some dude posing as a Defensive Coordinator.