Kitchens fate?

[One Post]

I mean really? Fredie Kitchens is a blob. I mean even his demeanor is down? Play calling my ass and fire Wilks too.

[D Bone]

I have to say that if Freddie is still the coach 3 days after the season finale, then it's going to be a very "whatever" off season for me, no matter how many talking heads say that we won the draft again.

If Freddie is gone though, then hope will spring eternal and anything will be possible.......... until it's not.

That's about week 9 for us, right? 

[One Post]

7 minutes ago, D Bone said:

I have to say that if Freddie is still the coach 3 days after the season finale, then it's going to be a very "whatever" off season for me, no matter how many talking heads say that we won the draft again.

If Freddie is gone though, then hope will spring eternal and anything will be possible.......... until it's not.

That's about week 9 for us, right? 

Well I mean we took a gamble at Kitchens? He has a resume but???? Ya and as the situation with Wilks...he should be able to stop a run much less a nosebleed.

[The Gipper]

13 hours ago, hish747 said:

Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.

Oi!   What a thought.   You would never know from looking at Freddie that he was once a  slim, agile QB for the Alabama Crimson Tide. You would have thought that he was a  nose tackle. 

The concept that Ferd's personal habits could be rubbing off on Baker are mind boggling. 

[Tour2ma]

Scathing article on CBS Sports...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lesson-of-browns-disastrous-2019-they-were-truly-on-to-something-a-year-ago-they-just-didnt-realize-it/

 

[hoorta]

8 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Scathing article on CBS Sports...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lesson-of-browns-disastrous-2019-they-were-truly-on-to-something-a-year-ago-they-just-didnt-realize-it/

 

Yup Tour- looking more and more like- if it ain't broke, don't try and fix it. Too far, too fast for Freddie. 

[Tour2ma]

23 hours ago, hoorta said:

... and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.     

Not on  its own, h, but not having to "overcome" penalties doesn't hurt...

Regardless... the point is that penalty count was a popular measure of discipline early in this season and lately it has not been a problem.

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, Tour2ma said:

Not on  its own, h, but not having to "overcome" penalties doesn't hurt...

Regardless... the point is that penalty count was a popular measure of discipline early in this season and lately it has not been a problem.

That because he doesn't "teach" penalties. 

[Tim Couch Pulls Out]

19 hours ago, gumby73 said:

 

Plus +100 👍..Good to see ya back around...Bountygate never bothered me...Last years, at Baltimore defensive game plan with his son did.. Bonus thought? What's your take on Kevin Stefanski? I would not mind keeping former Viking ST coach Mike Priefer on staff..Behind Stefanski is Gary Kubiak coaching with his son now on Zimmer's staff. Zim has got to be setting up for Stefanski out the door soon? 

 

I like Stefanski and I thought he was interesting. Of the "new" guys we interviewed, I wanted him more than Flores, Campbell or Eberflus. But to be honest, I wasn't really excited for most of the guys we interviewed.

Of all possibilities, my personal preferences (in order) were: 

• 1) Hire Arians, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Arians)
  • Arians wanted to be here, has experience with young QBs and a good body of work, established a good culture and relationships
• 2) Keep Williams, keep Freddie at OC
  • Williams deserved the opportunity, most of the players respected him and did their jobs, preached accountability and a focus on the little things
• 3) Hire Eric Bienemy as HC, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Bienemy)
  • Detail-oriented offensive mind, former player, from a winning culture, very adaptive playcaller, specialty with runningbacks
• 4) Hire Matt Campbell, keep Freddie at OC. (didn't interview Campbell) 
  • Campbell is a good culture builder and seems to be adept at turning losing programs into winners, though he has zero NFL experience
• 5) Hire Stefanski as HC, keep Freddie at OC. 
  • From a basketball family, dad was an NBA GM so he gets the business aspect of it, players like him and he preaches adapting the philosophy to the players
• 6) Hire Brian Flores, keep Freddie as OC. 
  • Experience in a winning culture, no-nonsense guy, outside the box hire

All of my preferences involved keeping Freddie at OC. He couldn't take an interview for a lateral move and it was highly unlikely anyone offered him the HC job last offseason, so it's either he stays with us for another year and adds to his resume or he quits. Either one of those options was preferable to me compared to making him HC.

This year, if we do in fact decide to go in a different direction, I would hope Riley, Bienemy and Rivera are at the top of our list. All three of those guys are known for being detail-oriented and you'd be hard pressed to find a player who speaks ill of any of them. Those are the qualities I think are most important in a head coach - the ability to garner/maintain respect and a focus on the little things. 

They are definitely preparing for Stefanski's departure but I'm not sure if it's this offseason or the next one. At most there will be like 7 HC vacancies in 2020 (WAS, CAR, NYJ, NYG, DAL, CLE, ATL, LAC), you have to think Rivera, McCarthy, Bienemy, and Roman are all going to definitely get hired as HC's next year. 

My guess? If CAR doesn't hire Greg Roman as HC, they'll bring in Stefanski. He's a good fit for David Tepper, who's a decently big analytics guy. 

[Tour2ma]

2 hours ago, Icecube said:

That because he doesn't "teach" penalties. 

Huh???

[Icecube]

On 12/17/2019 at 10:05 AM, hish747 said:

The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.

Have you ever hung with anyone who is too into sitting around a campire, like it is some amazing activity? Me? That was OK in high school (because it allowed us to drink and stay out all night) but by the time I got to college I preferred partying inside, without all the damn smoke covering every inch of your body. I also leaned the benefit of having girls around instead of a sausage party at a campfire. Freddie is that guy who overvalues sitting around a campfire, so he can spin his yarns of yore, with his good ole southern boy charm. That's the head coach. Not cutting it. Unevolved. Too simple. "I always try to tell the truth, I thought everyone did."

 

 

[Orion]

I've been a Freddie supporter...but......things bug me....

Njoku.   1st round pick.  Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past.  Not even active when healthy.    

Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

Randall.  One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh.  Long pass plays killed us that day.

I mean, it's bad enough that we've got weapons like Garrett and Vernon that can't play.....without removing HEALTHY weapons.  It seems like a lotta guys wind up on Freddy's shit list.  Can he get along with ANYONE other than Baker and Nick Chubb?  (we know that Landry wasn't overly happy with him during the Card's game)

Obviously, Freddie made some bad on field calls, like taking a 5 yard penalty to go for it on 4th and 15.  The 4th & 9 draw play.  

The whole T-shirt thing.  Meaningless as far as football goes, but as far as decision making goes....."Yup, let's go out in public wearing THIS shirt."  As a face of the Browns organization.

  "If  you don't wear brown & orange.....". Finally, after Baker called out the training staff, SOMEBODY got to him and told him to walk that back.  But SOMEBODY should've been in Baker's ear about acting more professional long before.

....these things add up and bug me.

[MDDawg]

So looks like Freddie will be out, he's been given the impossible task of beating Baltimore this week to keep his job per Daryl Ruiter's report today.

[bjh2130]

15 hours ago, Orion said:

Njoku.   1st round pick.  Had shown flashes of athleticism and a red zone target in the past.  Not even active when healthy.    

Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

Randall.  One of our better DB's held out of the biggest game of the season, in Pittsburgh.  Long pass plays killed us that day.

Njoku I can see holding him out because he may not be in game shape and we're not making the playoffs why rush him. Plus If he's active less than 6 games it doesn't count as a season accrued I believe. 

Higgins - I've got no clue

Randall - he violated a rule and got punished.  People can't complain of discipline then complain when he disciplined a player because it was a big game.  That would just show the team if you're good enough and it's a good opponent you can do whatever you please.

 

Edit looked up accrued season it is 6 games but being on the injured reserve still counts so it will count as a season on njoku contract but I still see not rushing him back just to go 8-8

[calfoxwc]

I don't know about Freddie being out. But I think that Freddie needs to give up the play calling - and fix it.

My concern is that other teams have said they knew a lot of the plays the Browns were going to run. That means what?

The first year simple schemes were studied and toast this year, and after they implemented a more complex offense scheme, it still is easy to read tendencies by lineups?

or, watching film, defenses have figured Freddie out on his strong tendencies in calling plays.

    for the first time - the arizona game was a giant rotten egg laid at Freddie's doorstep.

[Orion]

37 minutes ago, bjh2130 said:

Randall - he violated a rule and got punished.  People can't complain of discipline then complain when he disciplined a player because it was a big game.

Yes we can.

Fine him and don't start him.   But don't leave him home and tell him to go bowling.  That was the Steelers man!  Don't you understand.....WE'RE PLAYING MICHIGAN!!!

 

[bjh2130]

1 hour ago, Orion said:

Yes we can.

Fine him and don't start him.   But don't leave him home and tell him to go bowling.  That was the Steelers man!  Don't you understand.....WE'RE PLAYING MICHIGAN!!!

 

Then you're sending a message that if you're good enough and the game matters enough you can get away with breaking team rules.  What if a player earlier in the year had done the same thing and been told to stay home.  You start causing division in the team.  It sends the wrong message to the team. If you don't complain about the overall discipline of the team for the season then I can see someone not liking randall being suspended. Otherwise i just think it's hypocrisy.

 

 

Edit speaking of the Ohio state Michigan correlation it was floating around out there that Shaun Wade was going to be suspended early in the week of the game. Before it came out he was "injured". They never said what he was injured for and was dressed for the game. Didn't miss a beat and came back the next week.  

[MDDawg]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

I don't know about Freddie being out. But I think that Freddie needs to give up the play calling - and fix it.

My concern is that other teams have said they knew a lot of the plays the Browns were going to run. That means what?

The first year simple schemes were studied and toast this year, and after they implemented a more complex offense scheme, it still is easy to read tendencies by lineups?

or, watching film, defenses have figured Freddie out on his strong tendencies in calling plays.

    for the first time - the arizona game was a giant rotten egg laid at Freddie's doorstep.

Really, we were embarassed by the JV version of the Ravens last week and you think we'll beat the real deal? Freddie was hired for his "offensive genius". By every benchmark the offense is worse (since he no longer has Haley's playbook?) compounded by being outcoached, team indiscipline etc. Even the Haslams shouldn't give him another year.

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, MDDawg said:

So looks like Freddie will be out, he's been given the impossible task of beating Baltimore this week to keep his job per Daryl Ruiter's report today.

Well....that could put a lot of us in a real dilemma.   No matter what, even if it seems to be contrary to the team's long term interests,  I want the team to win.   But, if you say that this game would decide if Freddie stays or goes.....it gives me a quandary.    I do not think that Ferd will really ever be  quality HC in this league.....unless he learns  a lot in the next 5 years.  So I do think that in the team's long term interests it is best that he not be the HC here.  

But, I can never deep down bring myself to root against them.

[BaconHound]

I'm lukewarm on Freddie at this point.  Unlike others I don't have a ton of problems with his play calling.  Team discipline on the other hand seems to be lacking.  Again, it seems that a lot fans in here continue to hold coaches more responsible than GMs and forgive players almost entirely.  The issues I see.

Baker Mayfield - he hasn't been good.  Not sure about blaming the play calling when he misses guys that are open, doesn't trust throwing guys open, holds the ball to long on certain routes and has consistently missed high.

Offensive Line - Screw John Dorsey.  For a GM to believe this cast of characters would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot is an indictment on that GM.

OBJ Trade - Screw Dorsey again.  Weakened the OL for a guy who appears to be overrated.  OBJs hands have been average at best, doesn't seem to separate as well as one would hope and is still a distraction (watch, visor, does he want to be here)

Secondary - Screw Dorsey once again.  Ward has been good but not to the level of the #4 pick, Williams is awful, Randall is very inconsistent and what's with all the hamstring issues?  Losing Peppers hurt us in the run game so another thanks Dorsey

Attitude - Team is not focused and lacks leadership.  Baker, Landry, Garrett, Ward, OBJ, etc. are not leaders.  Chubb who is clearly 110% of what Cleveland is about and needs, is a quiet guy and doesn't seem like the guiding force.  Freddie doesn't seem capable in this area either.  

[Tour2ma]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:51 PM, Orion said:

Higgins.  A silky smooth receiver in the past, with good hands.  Never gets in the game...if he's even active.

Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

[bjh2130]

13 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Since we run a fair amount of 2 TE sets, who do you want to sit in place of Higgins? OBJ or Landry?

To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

[The Gipper]

1 minute ago, bjh2130 said:

To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

I think it is just more evidence of Ferd's misuse of his personnel. 

[Richiswhere]

23 hours ago, MDDawg said:

Really, we were embarassed by the JV version of the Ravens last week and you think we'll beat the real deal? Freddie was hired for his "offensive genius". By every benchmark the offense is worse (since he no longer has Haley's playbook?) compounded by being outcoached, team indiscipline etc. Even the Haslams shouldn't give him another year.

Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

[Dutch Oven]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:06 PM, bjh2130 said:

Then you're sending a message that if you're good enough and the game matters enough you can get away with breaking team rules.  What if a player earlier in the year had done the same thing and been told to stay home.  You start causing division in the team.  It sends the wrong message to the team. If you don't complain about the overall discipline of the team for the season then I can see someone not liking randall being suspended. Otherwise i just think it's hypocrisy.

I said a few times right after that incident that everyone always wants a badass head coach who doesn't take shit from his players until a head coach does just that... then they get all "Well, uh, yeah, BUT NOT NOW!"

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Richiswhere said:

Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

Doesn't the owner have the last say so?

I mean, I know that a GM is going to want to justify and defend his choice.....but....wtf.

[hoorta]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:55 PM, The Gipper said:

Well....that could put a lot of us in a real dilemma.   No matter what, even if it seems to be contrary to the team's long term interests,  I want the team to win.   But, if you say that this game would decide if Freddie stays or goes.....it gives me a quandary.    I do not think that Ferd will really ever be  quality HC in this league.....unless he learns  a lot in the next 5 years.  So I do think that in the team's long term interests it is best that he not be the HC here.  

But, I can never deep down bring myself to root against them.

I can't either, but to borrow a line from Jimmy Carter's campaign-- In your heart, you know we're gonna lose.   

12 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I think it is just more evidence of Ferd's misuse of his personnel. 

That IMHO Gipper will be the nail in Freddie's coffin. 

11 hours ago, Richiswhere said:

Was watching First Take the other day and it was said that the Haslam's  want to get rid of Kitchens but Dorsey wants to give him another year.

As Dorsey probably would. Problem is- should the Browns get blown out by the Ravens, and then lay an egg against the Bengals the following week- John Boy is going to have a big PR problem hanging on to a coach that 1\2 the National media have been saying all year was a big mistake over his head first time HC.  

[Canton Mike]

I was a huge fan of hiring Freddie, but I have learned that a Team this young & a rookie Head Coach (rookie HC at ANY level, much less NFL) can be a recipe for disaster.

We need to utilize &  LEAD the talent we acquired before we ALIENATE it. 

Mike

[flyingfooldoug]

So if we were to finish with a 5-1 division record....... does he stay or does he go?

 I say stay. 

[ballpeen]

16 hours ago, bjh2130 said:

To me tour it's more that when we do run 3 receiver sets its khadarel hodge that gets 85% of the opportunities and not Higgins. 

It is because of Dorsey.  Freddie know Dorsey likes "his" players.  Freddie has no pushback, which is what Dorsey wanted in his head coach...why do you think he hired Kitchens and not Williams?  So we fire Freddie, who's next, Casper Milquetoast, the man who speaks softly and gets hit with a big stick?