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Kitchens fate?

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11 hours ago, runyon27 said:

Here are my two cents for what it worth....Lets see if Freddie can learn from year one and make jump just like we always talk about players making a jump in year two.

The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.

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8 hours ago, hoorta said:

And I'll let you tell me how the Browns would be doing if they had the Steelers coaching staff.  :D 

8-6, 9-5... 

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This is what I want from the next head coach:

I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach. 

I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season. 

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12 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Super advance scouting for when he takes the Cowboy's job... :)

 

BTW... Chris Mortensen said today that he doubted Urban was doing anything, but visiting former players yesterday.... BUT...

... he has previously commented about what a desirable job that the Dallas HC position is. 😮

Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor?   For which he has not yet had surgery?   If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.  

Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor?  ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that.   The talent is there for him for the most part.

Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch,   and if  the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings,  he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue  still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him? 

If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up. 

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9 hours ago, hoorta said:

And I'll let you tell me how the Browns would be doing if they had the Steelers coaching staff.  :D 

Precisely.   

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28 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

This is what I want from the next head coach:

I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach. 

I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season. 

Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.  

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1 hour ago, hish747 said:

The problem is he has already proven that he doesn't do much learning from his mistakes. We continue to have discipline issues, he continues to make dumb calls, he continues to double down on his mistakes rather than owning up to them. This doesn't indicate someone who can make a positive leap forward and if we just wish it to be, it's us who taking an unfounded leap of faith. I'd rather stop the bleeding and get someone competent to run the team.

That all may be true, it seems to me the game plan Sunday given we are down 4 starters on defense including your best player would be to be run heavy, focused on Chubb and Hunt and then open up the passing game later. Manage the game on the ground to give as much help to your defense as you can. We didn't do that. You have to weigh the impact of firing a guy after one season versus giving them a fair shot. I think Freddie is a big enough guy when he looks back to see where he f'd up. Whether he can improve on that and maybe fight his natural impulses I don't know. If do do dump Freddie this year, go after Rivera, he will bring the discipline sorely needed.

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36 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Sounds like.......we shoulda kept Gregg Williams.  

I have a feeling that would have flamed out sooner than later though... I think Williams as head coach would have ended up being a drama circus in Berea. (But he would have been a superior pick to Freddie short-term, definitely)

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31 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

I have a feeling that would have flamed out sooner than later though... I think Williams as head coach would have ended up being a drama circus in Berea. (But he would have been a superior pick to Freddie short-term, definitely)

What's that old saying about watch what the good teams are doing and do that?  From the top down.

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14 hours ago, runyon27 said:

Problems I have seen with Freddie this year include discipline...

Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?

Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...

  • First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
  • Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST

The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.

While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.

 

One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.

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3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

This is what I want from the next head coach:

I want someone who is organized, someone who makes it crystal clear that nonsense will not be tolerated. This coach does not have to be a screaming lunatic, but someone who sets the tone from Day 1 that the Browns will be a winning franchise, and if you are a person who gets in the way of this, you can get the fuck out. A head coach who can adjust his coaching philosophy to the talent he has, not the other way around. I don't care if he's 35 or 60, offensive or defensive coach. 

So.... you want Belichick...

3 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

I can't believe I never questioned the hiring of Freddie. He did a good job stepping up last season after Hue and Haley were fired, but there's a HUGE difference between being a good OC and being a competent head coach. I wanted this to work so bad that I totally missed the red flags surrounding this team going into this season. 

Me, neither... as in I can't believe you didn't.

I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.

 

I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...

... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.

Just an impression.... I could be wrong...

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4 hours ago, hish747 said:

We continue to have discipline issues,

Based upon???

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3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Doesn't Urban still have a brain tumor?   For which he has not yet had surgery?   If not for that he likely would still be at Ohio State.  

Why would Dallas, or Washington, or anyone want an HC with a brain tumor?  ....including the Browns....which, if there is an NFL job that he may want, it would be that.   The talent is there for him for the most part.

Oh, I suppose he may still have an itch to scratch,   and if  the Cowboys/Browns/Redskins have job openings,  he can certainly throw his hat in the ring.......but would not the health issue  still be a major issue for him...and the team that would have him? 

If you hire Urban as your HC, you also better hire an associate HC that you have confidence in that he can take over for Meyer when his tumor acts up. 

Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery. 

53 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Remember when discipline was THE #1 criticism of Freddie and penalties were THE measure of discipline his critics pointed to?

Well fourteen games in let's look for any signs of progress...

  • First seven games: 70 total - 38 Off - 24 Def - 7 ST - (1 ???)
  • Last seven games: 41 total - 16 Off - 20 Def - 5 ST

The improvement on the Offensive side of the ball... the side Freddie is most directly responsible for IIRC... is essentially responsible for the team's improvement.

While the actual 111 total lands us a spot at 3rd most in the league, a total of 82, double the second half of the season to date lands us in a tie for 4th fewest.

One other note... in the age of "block in the back" racking up only 12 ST penalties, less than one per game, strikes me as pretty remarkable.

and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.  :)   

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41 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Dr. Hoorta for you Gipper. Meyer does not have a brain tumor. It's an arachanoid cyst that happens to be in his brain. Yeah, they can cause problems if they get too big. If it's stable (and his probably is ) nothing to worry about. I suppose I could ask my neurologist pal if they do become a big problem if they're able to be removed by surgery. 

and having few penalties (I believe the Bengals were, and still might be) lowest in the NFL may not be an indication of success.  :)   

Is an arachanoid cyst like a spider in the brain?

The thing is, there were times last year where he was visibly in pain or having some kind of problems on the sidelines.

urban-meyer-sideline-meltdown-775x465.pn

 

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20 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Is an arachanoid cyst like a spider in the brain?

The thing is, there were times last year where he was visibly in pain or having some kind of problems on the sidelines.

urban-meyer-sideline-meltdown-775x465.pn

 

Arachanoid refers to a type of brain tissue. Ok, I did further research- you can surgically treat them and  put in a tiny shunt to drain them. Here's a picture of one of those cysts...  Definitely enough to give you major headaches.... 

Image result for arachnoid cyst image

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

So.... you want Belichick...

 

IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit. 

I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.

 

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I was solidly in Williams' corner. When Dorsey picked Freddie, I said at the time it was because Freddie would be more pliable... would bend more readily to Dorsey's way of thinking. So I agree there would have been more drama/tension in the Berea offices... but better there than in the locker room/ on the sideline, which is where it is now.

 

I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...

... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.

Just an impression.... I could be wrong...

 

I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.

As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens. 

 

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

 

I haven't looked for data, but my impression is that the Freddie backers then seem to be the most vocal now for firing him...

... while the Williams' guys (like me) seem to be the ones preaching patience.

Just an impression.... I could be wrong...

 

Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point.  Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up. 

I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board. 

Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out. 

Good talent can't overcome bad coaching. 

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  6 hours ago, hish747 said:

We continue to have discipline issues,

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Based upon???

Whitehead, Garrett, Randle, Higgins, Njoku, OBJ and Landry yelling at coaches and yes Baker calling out the medical staff and looking like a homeless wino during press conferences...is that enough for you???

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1 hour ago, hoorta said:

Arachanoid refers to a type of brain tissue. Ok, I did further research- you can surgically treat them and  put in a tiny shunt to drain them. Here's a picture of one of those cysts...  Definitely enough to give you major headaches.... 

Image result for arachnoid cyst image

At times I think that Meyer was debilitated because of his headaches.  Can't see how taking an NFL job would not be even more stress than he has had.  I mean, working for  Dan Snyder or Jerry Jones....and maybe even Jimmy Haslam would be enough to give a person migraines, without  the aid of a cyst in the head.  With it?   

Think:   Scanners

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1 hour ago, hish747 said:
  6 hours ago, hish747 said:

We continue to have discipline issues,

Whitehead, Garrett, Randle, Higgins, Njoku, OBJ and Landry yelling at coaches and yes Baker calling out the medical staff and looking like a homeless wino during press conferences...is that enough for you???

Wow... I did know all those players yelled at coaches... :rolleyes:

... but thanks for playing our game.

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2 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point. 

True enough, but there weren't all that many of us pulling for Williams either IIRC...

 

I do agree that if Freddie loses a chunk of the locker room, then that's the death knell...

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55 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Wow... I did know all those players yelled at coaches... :rolleyes:

... but thanks for playing our game.

Sorry Tour2ma, I wasn't clear. I was just rattling off players who had issues stemming from a lack of discipline, not saying they were all yelling at coaches. Only OBJ and Landry were doing that. I think you know what whitehead and Garrett did and for some reason the coach can't properly manage Randle, Higgins and Njoku.

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54 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

True enough, but there weren't all that many of us pulling for Williams either IIRC...

  

I do agree that if Freddie loses a chunk of the locker room, then that's the death knell...

Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.

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3 hours ago, Tim Couch Pulls Out said:

 

IMO there's more than one way to skin a cat. Could be a more stoic disciplinarian, could be a soft-spoken guy, could be an asshole, could be a player's coach - doesn't necessarily matter. My personal belief is that, at this level, discipline comes from respect and respect is earned through showing you know your shit. 

I don't think Freddie gives off that vibe in the least and I don't believe the players respect him.

 

 

I was a Williams guy myself, Tour. I thought he did a nice job in the interim and I thoroughly enjoyed his take on accountability. A lot of people weren't fans because of Bountygate, which is understandable, but I wanted to see how what he could do with this young team of personalities. I thought he brought a good mesh of in your face "fuck you" antics and preaching perfection in even the smallest actions.

As a matter of fact, the guy I wanted the least was Kitchens. 

 

Honestly, I've found few people preaching patience at this point.  Kitchens looks in over his head, plain and simple. And he's seemingly lost a portion of the locker room, which is an even bigger concern. Once that fissure starts to form, there's not enough spackle in the world to patch it up. 

I remember many years of posting "we're just building up to go on a run, we're just waiting for that window" on this very board. 

Well, this is finally it. This is that window. We've got two years before we need to start really locking up the core of this team to big contracts. We can't waste it hoping that Freddie figures it out. 

Good talent can't overcome bad coaching. 

Plus +100 👍..Good to see ya back around...Bountygate never bothered me...Last years, at Baltimore defensive game plan with his son did.. Bonus thought? What's your take on Kevin Stefanski? I would not mind keeping former Viking ST coach Mike Priefer on staff..Behind Stefanski is Gary Kubiak coaching with his son now on Zimmer's staff. Zim has got to be setting up for Stefanski out the door soon? 

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8 minutes ago, hish747 said:

Sorry Tour2ma, I wasn't clear. I was just rattling off players who had issues stemming from a lack of discipline, not saying they were all yelling at coaches. Only OBJ and Landry were doing that. I think you know what whitehead and Garrett did and for some reason the coach can't properly manage Randle, Higgins and Njoku.

Pretty sure I knew that... was just funnin'... Thanks for not taking offense.

I don't ascribe one-offs like Garrett to his HC. Same for social media idiocy. There's a line where it falls to self-control. No one blamed Andy Reid for Hunt's assault of a female.

As for managing players (by which I assume you mean how they are or are not being used) I am not sure where that falls on the Offense's side since we have an OC, but clearly it's own the DC for that side of the ball. All we.. or at least I... really know about Freddie on the O-side is that he calls the plays come gameday.

6 minutes ago, hish747 said:

Don't you think it's enough what he's done to Baker? It's like the Simpsons episode where their dog goes to live with grandpa Simpson and starts to take on his aged appearance. Baker is gaining weight, looking slovenly and is a shadow of the QB he was last year.

Not sure Freddie did all that. In my experience marriage does at least the weight gain part. His look... sure... if there's one thing Freddie ain't.... it's dapper.

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14 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Not sure Freddie did all that. In my experience marriage does at least the weight gain part. His look... sure... if there's one thing Freddie ain't.... it's dapper.

I know, it was my turn for funnin'. 

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26 minutes ago, hish747 said:

I know, it was my turn for funnin'. 

Touche'

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Meanwhile... first article proclaiming this that I've seen.

Cleveland Browns: Freddie Kitchens has officially lost the team

 

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