Kitchens fate?

[MDDawg]

According to Ian Rapoport of NFL Network, appears that he is safe although I wish he wasn't. The weak second half of the schedule shouldn't give him a pass for the overall poor performance and indiscipline of the team.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001087466/article/browns-continue-to-support-head-coach-freddie-kitchens

 

[The Gipper]

Well, it comes as no surprise.   

The problem here was the diametrically opposed moves of giving us what was sold as a "ready to win"  talented lineup.....and then providing that lineup with  a green as algae slime  HC to put it all together.   It didn't work.

Perhaps the problem was the sales job....especially the OBJ acquisition.  He needed to be on a "Win NoW"  team.  The Browns, I understand, are the third youngest roster in all the NFL.    They probably really needed time to grow together. And it should have been billed as that:   "a building team".

I don't know if Freddie will ever turn into a Noll/Walsh/Johnson type coach....one that goes from like 1 win season to multiple championship HC.  Somehow, right now I doubt it.   But I do understand that except for the marketing of this (or hyping of it....which was, not, in fact, done by the team itself but by the media)...as a championship caliber team,   it is probably a fair result that we have gotten this year:   a team on the rise, building. 

[MDDawg]

11 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Well, it comes as no surprise.   

The problem here was the diametrically opposed moves of giving us what was sold as a "ready to win"  talented lineup.....and then providing that lineup with  a green as algae slime  HC to put it all together.   It didn't work.

Perhaps the problem was the sales job....especially the OBJ acquisition.  He needed to be on a "Win NoW"  team.  The Browns, I understand, are the third youngest roster in all the NFL.    They probably really needed time to grow together. And it should have been billed as that:   "a building team".

I don't know if Freddie will ever turn into a Noll/Walsh/Johnson type coach....one that goes from like 1 win season to multiple championship HC.  Somehow, right now I doubt it.   But I do understand that except for the marketing of this (or hyping of it....which was, not, in fact, done by the team itself but by the media)...as a championship caliber team,   it is probably a fair result that we have gotten this year:   a team on the rise, building. 

In Freddie's defense, Dorsey's trading for OBJ put more pressure on Kitchens as a win now team. In hindsight they should've kept Perriman, Peppers and solidifed both lines. Still doesn't excuse the lack of discipline though.

[Dutch Oven]

1 minute ago, MDDawg said:

In Freddie's defense, Dorsey's trading for OBJ put more pressure on Kitchens as a win now team. In hindsight they should've kept Perriman, Peppers and solidifed both lines. Still doesn't excuse the lack of discipline though.

Or the godawful in-game decisions he makes consistently. 

He's going to get another season, even if he doesn't deserve it, because the last thing the Browns want to do is fire ANOTHER head coach after one season. Hopefully Kitchens learns from his mistakes, quickly. 

[jiggins7919]

I really hope so. I can honestly say that he's made a lot of mistakes, but he's a rookie, right? Let's ask ourselves an important question. Are we getting better? It's not a simple question to answer. 

The product on the field doesn't really inspire confidence, as we still struggle to score points, our defense is gummi bear soft, and we have a constant lack of big play ability. Despite having the leading rusher in the league, we STILL struggle to have any fluidity to our attack, and our drives are all too often herky-jerky and a jumbled mess. The defense is hamstrung by injuries and by one of the biggest blunders by a player this century. I'm of course talking about Myles Garrett, and I thoroughly believe he legitimately cost us a chance at the post season. 

But back to the question at hand, are we getting better? We've now won 4-5, and it likely SHOULD have been 5 in a row. Football is a team game, but I feel confident in placing this loss squarely on the shoulders of Garrett. While the product isn't necessarily PLEASING to watch all the time, our team is finding ways to win ugly. Do you guys even realize how big of a step that is? HOW MANY years have we bemoaned the fact that we couldn't win the close, ugly ones? 

Listen, I'm the first one to say how annoyed I am at certain things regarding our team. Kitchens doesn't seem to have the best grasp of when to pass vs throw. Like I said in another post, the perfect example of this happened against the Bengals. We had it first and 10 on the 50 right after our only forced 3 and out of the game. We had ALL the momentum. It's a perfect time to dial up your favorite run play and try to assert your dominance while keeping the clock moving. What do we do? We go for the dagger with a deep shot to OBJ, only we can't cut it loose because we have a TE blocking their best pass rusher. Baker gets sacked and we're forced to pass twice more, both incompletions to OBJ. 

I totally get that hindsight is 20/20, and maybe being aggressive is a good strategy when you're trying to win the game, but so often this year I felt like Kitchens was disconnected to situational football. You can't say we don't run it enough because Nick Chubb about leads the league in touches. It's more of WHEN those touches are called. But here's the thing, I honestly believe Kitchens is getting better. You may think that last week was a bad offensive performance, and you'd largely be right. However, look at our drives. We moved the ball virtually every time, but Baker threw a bad pick on a WIDE OPEN receiver, and we also got screwed by that Njoku fumble/pick. Other than that, our effing defense never got us the rock back. 

Perhaps the biggest reason I don't want a new staff is because of Baker Mayfield. I don't want him to learn a new system, as we know first hand what that does to a young signal caller. I realize Baker struggled this year, but I also know what he's capable of doing and I want him focused on improving what he already knows, NOT trying to learn something else. 

I think we're built for the future, and with the right tweaks, we could have an offense that legitimately terrifies people on the ground and air. Let's give it another year and see where we stand. 

[MDDawg]

24 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

I really hope so. I can honestly say that he's made a lot of mistakes, but he's a rookie, right? Let's ask ourselves an important question. Are we getting better? It's not a simple question to answer. 

The product on the field doesn't really inspire confidence, as we still struggle to score points, our defense is gummi bear soft, and we have a constant lack of big play ability. Despite having the leading rusher in the league, we STILL struggle to have any fluidity to our attack, and our drives are all too often herky-jerky and a jumbled mess. The defense is hamstrung by injuries and one of the biggest blunders by a player this century. I'm of course talking about Myles Garrett, and I thoroughly believe he legitimately cost us a chance at the post season. 

But back to the question at hand, are we getting better? We've now won 4-5, and it likely SHOULD have been 5 in a row. Football is a team game, but I feel confident in placing this loss squarely on the shoulders of Garrett. While the product isn't necessarily PLEASING to watch all the time, our team is finding ways to win ugly. Do you guys even realize how big of a step that is? HOW MANY years have we bemoaned the fact that we couldn't win the close, ugly ones? 

Listen, I'm the first one to say how annoyed I am at certain things regarding our team. Kitchens doesn't seem to have the best grasp of when to pass vs throw. Like I said in another post, the perfect example of this happened against the Bengals. We had it first and 10 on the 50 right after our only forced 3 and out of the game. We had ALL the momentum. It's a perfect time to dial up your favorite run play and try to assert your dominance while keeping the clock moving. What do we do? We go for the dagger with a deep shot to OBJ, only we can't cut it loose because we have a TE blocking their best pass rusher. Baker gets sacked and we're forced to pass twice more, both incompletions to OBJ. 

I totally get that hindsight is 20/20, and maybe being aggressive is a good strategy when you're trying to win the game, but so often this year I felt like Kitchens was disconnected to situational football. You can't say we don't run it enough because Nick Chubb about leads the league in touches. It's more of WHEN those touches are called. But here's the thing, I honestly believe Kitchens is getting better. You may think that last week was a bad offensive performance, and you'd largely be right. However, look at our drives. We moved the ball virtually every time, but Baker threw a bad pick on a WIDE OPEN receiver, and we also got screwed by that Njoku fumble/pick. Other than that, our effing defense never got us the rock back. 

Perhaps the biggest reason I don't want a new staff is because of Baker Mayfield. I don't want him to learn a new system, as we know first hand what that does to a young signal caller. I realize Baker struggled this year, but I also know what he's capable of doing and I want him focused on improving what he already knows, NOT trying to learn something else. 

I think we're built for the future, and with the right tweaks, we could have an offense that legitimately terrifies people on the ground and air. Let's give it another year and see where we stand. 

Let's see, I hope you're right.

[SdBacker80]

Short leash next year for sure.  Maybe even delegation of play calls and/or axe to Monken.

 

[SdBacker80]

1 hour ago, MDDawg said:

In Freddie's defense, Dorsey's trading for OBJ put more pressure on Kitchens as a win now team. In hindsight they should've kept Perriman, Peppers and solidifed both lines. Still doesn't excuse the lack of discipline though.

don’t agree with this take. 

We sold high on Peppers.  Ask Giants fans. 
And Perriman was playing for his next check.

We put faith in Freddy the playcaller by giving him an extra special toy.  I can’t fault Dorsey for that. 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

I’ve been tough on Kitchens at times this year but this is comforting news. 

[The Gipper]

3 minutes ago, SdBacker80 said:

don’t agree with this take. 

We sold high on Peppers.  Ask Giants fans. 
And Perriman was playing for his next check.

We put faith in Freddy the playcaller by giving him an extra special toy.  I can’t fault Dorsey for that. 

I do NOT believe that Perriman was a part of the OBJ trade, was he?

[SdBacker80]

Just now, The Gipper said:

I do NOT believe that Perriman was a part of the OBJ trade, was he?

No he wasn’t.  He was offered he was going to sign and then we brought OBJ in. 

[S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L]

Yea, first coach to give us a winning season in damn near 15 years..... Fuck it, fire him. 

[Dutch Oven]

Just now, S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L said:

Yea, first coach to give us a winning season in damn near 15 years..... Fuck it, fire him. 

The Browns are 6-7.

[S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L]

We are going to go 8-8 worst case scenario.  

[Dutch Oven]

Just now, S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L said:

We are going to go 8-8 worst case scenario.  

Which is not a winning season. 

[mjp28]

1 minute ago, Dutch Oven said:

Which is not a winning season. 

Went 7-8-1 last year. Not much of an improvement with a loaded offensive team.

[Flugel]

8 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

The Browns are 6-7.

New millennial math.   While we're at it, does anyone got two 10s for a 5?

[S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L]

33 minutes ago, Dutch Oven said:

Which is not a winning season.

Fair enough but it's not a losing season either.   Let's not get trigger happy just yet. 

[Kvoethe]

Kitchens sink

[calfoxwc]

https://www.rep-am.com/sports/pro/nfl/2019/11/06/calling-plays-in-nfl-a-challenge-for-some-rookie-nfl-coaches-2/

[Kvoethe]

I still dunno why they broke up the williams kitchens duo from last season...what a fock up

[Icecube]

1 hour ago, jiggins7919 said:

I really hope so. I can honestly say that he's made a lot of mistakes, but he's a rookie, right? Let's ask ourselves an important question. Are we getting better? It's not a simple question to answer. 

The product on the field doesn't really inspire confidence, as we still struggle to score points, our defense is gummi bear soft, and we have a constant lack of big play ability. Despite having the leading rusher in the league, we STILL struggle to have any fluidity to our attack, and our drives are all too often herky-jerky and a jumbled mess. The defense is hamstrung by injuries and by one of the biggest blunders by a player this century. I'm of course talking about Myles Garrett, and I thoroughly believe he legitimately cost us a chance at the post season. 

But back to the question at hand, are we getting better? We've now won 4-5, and it likely SHOULD have been 5 in a row. Football is a team game, but I feel confident in placing this loss squarely on the shoulders of Garrett. While the product isn't necessarily PLEASING to watch all the time, our team is finding ways to win ugly. Do you guys even realize how big of a step that is? HOW MANY years have we bemoaned the fact that we couldn't win the close, ugly ones? 

Listen, I'm the first one to say how annoyed I am at certain things regarding our team. Kitchens doesn't seem to have the best grasp of when to pass vs throw. Like I said in another post, the perfect example of this happened against the Bengals. We had it first and 10 on the 50 right after our only forced 3 and out of the game. We had ALL the momentum. It's a perfect time to dial up your favorite run play and try to assert your dominance while keeping the clock moving. What do we do? We go for the dagger with a deep shot to OBJ, only we can't cut it loose because we have a TE blocking their best pass rusher. Baker gets sacked and we're forced to pass twice more, both incompletions to OBJ. 

I totally get that hindsight is 20/20, and maybe being aggressive is a good strategy when you're trying to win the game, but so often this year I felt like Kitchens was disconnected to situational football. You can't say we don't run it enough because Nick Chubb about leads the league in touches. It's more of WHEN those touches are called. But here's the thing, I honestly believe Kitchens is getting better. You may think that last week was a bad offensive performance, and you'd largely be right. However, look at our drives. We moved the ball virtually every time, but Baker threw a bad pick on a WIDE OPEN receiver, and we also got screwed by that Njoku fumble/pick. Other than that, our effing defense never got us the rock back. 

Perhaps the biggest reason I don't want a new staff is because of Baker Mayfield. I don't want him to learn a new system, as we know first hand what that does to a young signal caller. I realize Baker struggled this year, but I also know what he's capable of doing and I want him focused on improving what he already knows, NOT trying to learn something else. 

I think we're built for the future, and with the right tweaks, we could have an offense that legitimately terrifies people on the ground and air. Let's give it another year and see where we stand. 

Well thought out post, Jigs. I totally get the point about not wanting ANOTHER coaching change after 1 season. I get it. But I worry Freddie just doesn't have it in him, no matter how many chances he's given. I don't think the players respect him. Baker hinted that he is the discipline dearth cause. Let's put it this way: What would this team be with Ron Rivera or Mike McCarthy running the ship? I say a playoff team. 

[MDDawg]

1 hour ago, SdBacker80 said:

don’t agree with this take. 

We sold high on Peppers.  Ask Giants fans. 
And Perriman was playing for his next check.

We put faith in Freddy the playcaller by giving him an extra special toy.  I can’t fault Dorsey for that. 

I liked the OBJ trade at the time but this year Mayfield’s been forcing the ball to him instead of distributing it evenly like last year. Perriman can take the top off a defense like OBJ was supposed to. Wilkes’ defense relies on good strong safety play which we haven’t had all year, Peppers is MUCH better than everyone we’ve put out there this season and probably would’ve won us the Denver game at least ( Whitehead’s masterpiece). 
Edit: Also Perriman wanted to stay, he only requested to be released after OBJ was acquired. 

[hoorta]

4 hours ago, S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L said:

Yea, first coach to give us a winning season in damn near 15 years..... Fuck it, fire him. 

After a total display of crap football against Arizona, I sure don't want more of the same next year.

[S_U_P_E_R_B_O_W_L]

Alright boys, I was wrong.  Fire Freddie. 

[hoorta]

Landry being pissed is the end of the line for Freddie. Fred is dead. 

Never mind the otherwise total shit show against a team you should at least be competitive against. 😬

[Browns149]

He’s got to go. The team has totally quit this game

The coaching staff has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to warrant another year

[Nero]

The thing that plays against Kitchens is that I remember playing some games that we were close to winning last year, but finally didn't. We could have started 4-0 and nobody would have been really surprised (Steelers' tie, Saints kicking fiasco, Raiders' refball...) We were a few plays away from winning. Then we fired Hue and the team turned the table to end the season 7-8-1. It was an exciting season overall, even when losing games. 

This year, many times what I think is 'wtf are we doing'. Bad discipline, playcalls get late, cute playcalls that go nowhere, stupid challenges, players with no mental toughness, a quaterback speaking and doing commercials BUT NOT playing like he should... Feelings are polar opposite to a 'learning coach' or an 'improving team'. I wish I could think otherwise.

[ATOM]

fire em all move the team

[jcam222]

Just now, ATOM said:

fire em all move the team

Fuck that, fire them yes but if anyone moves it’s gonna have to be you.