Looking back - Josh Allen vs Josh Rosen

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

lol... Is that why Ravens' players surround Jackson and chant "MVP"?

He's a star for them. I just explained the difference between Kyler and Lamar. Take it or leave it. Kyler is far more a passer, than a runner. I gave you stats on it in college. Grow up already. If you "don't care" you don't need to open the thread.

   For all the guys who didn't play football for whatever reasons, we have a right to our perceptions about the game, too.

You mad, you and your little "boss, de plane, de plane" friend? Because you "knew" that the media labeled Rosen as being by far the most NFL ready, perfect pocket passer, and you went with it completely?100 percentsies? I wasn't going to call anybody out.

You called yourselves out ! LOL LOL

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Easy... neither team gave him a pocket.

... and you do not seem to be aware that Rosen did get starts in Miami.

As for the trade... also easy... when AZ hired Kingsbury it was clear that they were no longer going to run an Offense that matched Rosen's skill set. So after drafting that style QB in Murray they immediately traded him for that year's #32 overall plus a 5th-round pick in 2020, which is not nothing especially in light of him clearly not being  part of AZ's future.

Any other questions?

Of course I know he got starts in Miami - and was replaced by an older former 7th round pick at qb. I watched him play. He was miserable. I actually hope the guy can go ahead and have a solid career - who wants somebody to be a failure?

I simply call em as I sees em. Making excuses for Rosen is your take? He isn't making excuses, he's manned up to his weaknesses. He had problems with his attitude in the draft - his work ethic was blah, his entitlement crap was sky high. He WAS a prick. Like I already said - We watched a prick yellow rope grow up a ton, because the more he was a prick, the more miserable and failure he was. He grew up and became one of us. It took time. A lot of folks grow up from adversity in one fashion or another.

from the Miami Herald, and Rosen himself:

*************************************************

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article237362129.html

"But here’s something more encouraging: The quarterback that could not author the kind of results Fitzpatrick is currently getting didn’t just fade into the shadows and allow himself to be forgotten. Josh Rosen didn’t leave the big stage and simply become an observer with little say in the present and no prospects for the future.

Josh Rosen recognized he failed. And he’s been attacking that failure behind the scenes.

“If bad things happen, everything didn’t go correctly,” Rosen said during a private moment this week. “So you have to figure out what went wrong and fix it. I got a lot of things that I’m fixing and I think I’m learning a lot and fixing a lot of things behind the scenes right now and developing a lot of skills.”

Rosen started three games in late September through mid-October and all three were Dolphins losses. Fitzpatrick regained the starting job at Buffalo on Oct. 20 and will continue to start Sunday, again against the Bills.

And while Fitzpatrick has done the seemingly endless work of preparing for each start, Rosen has begun shadowing Fitzpatrick. He’s learning from Fitzpatrick to a degree that he probably didn’t attempt previously.

Because Rosen needs more than to improve on the physical aspects of playing quarterback. He seems quite gifted in that area. He needs to improve on the way he studies, the way he watches film, the way he plans and prepares for specific defenses and their coordinators.

And he’s doing that.

“I’ve made a lot of drastic improvements since I stopped starting, just by watching Fitz prepare for a game,” Rosen said. “I’m shadowing his schedule and seeing how he functions and what I can do for myself and getting a lot better at studying and watching film and anticipating where the ball is going.”

“There’s just so many levels to it, and I didn’t really realize that, honestly, until relatively recently. And it’s kind of cool to be able to dive into those different levels as I watch Fitz play and how he functions.”

 

 

[Dutch Oven]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

For all the guys who didn't play football for whatever reasons, we have a right to our perceptions about the game, too.

I'm pretty confident that the reason you didn't play football is because of your labia. 

[tiamat63]

At first I was like...

 

 

[tiamat63]

And then I was all like...

 

[tiamat63]

After taking 10 seconds to think about it... Ended up all like.

 

 

[mjp28]

Man did this thread die.   

[Dutch Oven]

9 minutes ago, mjp28 said:

Man did this thread die.   

You weren't titillated by cal's enthralling stories about some fake hillbilly and his love for the outdoors? 

[hoorta]

1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

You weren't titillated by cal's enthralling stories about some fake hillbilly and his love for the outdoors? 

Can we sum it up Cal =I was SO right about Rosen, even if I have no first hand information on how hard he's trying? Sort of like Corbett?

[Dutch Oven]

36 minutes ago, hoorta said:

Can we sum it up Cal =I was SO right about Rosen, even if I have no first hand information on how hard he's trying? Sort of like Corbett?

I can only imagine the staggering stupidity that comes from cal's fingertips on to this board's political forum. 

[hoorta]

8 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

He's a star for them. I just explained the difference between Kyler and Lamar. Take it or leave it. Kyler is far more a passer, than a runner. I gave you stats on it in college. Grow up already. If you "don't care" you don't need to open the thread.

   For all the guys who didn't play football for whatever reasons, we have a right to our perceptions about the game, too.

You mad, you and your little "boss, de plane, de plane" friend? Because you "knew" that the media labeled Rosen as being by far the most NFL ready, perfect pocket passer, and you went with it completely?100 percentsies? I wasn't going to call anybody out.

You called yourselves out ! LOL LOL

The problem is- that won't buy you a cup of coffee assuming you're right about Rosen and Allen- and it's far too damn early to make a determination. Classic BS on the poly board- when beaten, change the subject- Kyler and Lamar have ZERO to do with your initial premise. 

FWIW, you positing character, determination, and desire as a criteria as a primary predictor of success is about on the level of hooey BS as Ghoolie's offensive linemen are a dime a dozen.  

Just give it a rest- I can give you a laundry list- starting in 2002 on how "right" I was predicting HOFers- and under performing busts.  Want me to? So pack your duck call away and start calling ducks with it. OK?  

[calfoxwc]

4 hours ago, hoorta said:

Can we sum it up Cal =I was SO right about Rosen, even if I have no first hand information on how hard he's trying? Sort of like Corbett?

Nope - I was the one who posted that. I didn't hate Rosen, I just had no respect for his attitude. Meanwhile, admits what I and others said about him. Good for him, personally and for his NFL career. I'm going by facts about Corbett, and drawing my own conclusions.

I don't need your alpha-whine boys band's permission, and neither does anyone else on this board who didn't play football but have watched the Browns since the Leroy Kelly days.

My work in this here thread is done. Wait...

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2019/12/bills-josh-allen-and-ravens-lamar-jackson-will-make-nfl-history-for-this-stat-sunday.html

"

Bills’ Josh Allen and Ravens’ Lamar Jackson will make NFL history for this stat Sunday

Updated Dec 03, 2019;Posted Dec 03, 2019

"

"Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen and Baltimore Ravens quarterback Lamar Jackson are the two most successful signal callers from the 2018 draft class despite being the third and fifth quarterbacks selected."

" Their teams are a combined 19-5 on the season and both players are likely headed to the playoffs. "

"

On the other side, Allen hasn’t been as dependent on running the ball this season but it’s largely been due to him becoming a more effective passer. He’s rushed for 430 yards on about the same number of carries he had in his 12 games as a rookie, but he’s averaging almost two and a half yards per carry less. What hasn’t changed is Allen’s ability to score when running it. He has eight rushing touchdowns on the season and that’s the most by any quarterback in the league.

The Bills are coming off their most impressive game of the season in a 26-15 win in Dallas on Thanksgiving. The Bills sit at 9-3 and within a game of the New England Patriots in the AFC East."

 

 

 

[calfoxwc]

1 minute ago, hoorta said:

The problem is- that won't buy you a cup of coffee assuming you're right about Rosen and Allen- and it's far too damn early to make a determination. Classic BS on the poly board- when beaten, change the subject- Kyler and Lamar have ZERO to do with your initial premise. 

FWIW, you positing character, determination, and desire as a criteria as a primary predictor of success is about on the level of hooey BS as Ghoolie's offensive linemen are a dime a dozen.  

Just give it a rest- I can give you a laundry list- starting in 2002 on how "right" I was predicting HOFers- and under performing busts.  Want me to? So pack your duck call away and start calling ducks with it. OK?  

The intitial hostility was during the draft. I simply commented on looking back. History is important.

How about you and your two haters STFU and let other people have opinions too? we don't need your stinking permission.

Okay. Now I'm done, and yes, you all stunk up the thread and killed it, and now you complain about the stink.

Have a nice day.

[hoorta]

1 minute ago, calfoxwc said:

Nope - I was the one who posted that. I didn't hate Rosen, I just had no respect for his attitude. Meanwhile, admits what I and others said about him. Good for him, personally and for his NFL career. I'm going by facts about Corbett, and drawing my own conclusions.

I don't need your alpha-whine boys band's permission, and neither does anyone else on this board who didn't play football but have watched the Browns since the Leroy Kelly days.

My work in this here thread is done. Wait...

https://www.syracuse.com/buffalo-bills/2019/12/bills-josh-allen-and-ravens-lamar-jackson-will-make-nfl-history-for-this-stat-sunday.html

"

Bills’ Josh Allen and Ravens’ Lamar Jackson will make NFL history for this stat Sunday

Updated Dec 03, 2019;Posted Dec 03, 2019

"

"Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen and Baltimore Ravens quarterback Lamar Jackson are the two most successful signal callers from the 2018 draft class despite being the third and fifth quarterbacks selected."

" Their teams are a combined 19-5 on the season and both players are likely headed to the playoffs. "

"

On the other side, Allen hasn’t been as dependent on running the ball this season but it’s largely been due to him becoming a more effective passer. He’s rushed for 430 yards on about the same number of carries he had in his 12 games as a rookie, but he’s averaging almost two and a half yards per carry less. What hasn’t changed is Allen’s ability to score when running it. He has eight rushing touchdowns on the season and that’s the most by any quarterback in the league.

The Bills are coming off their most impressive game of the season in a 26-15 win in Dallas on Thanksgiving. The Bills sit at 9-3 and within a game of the New England Patriots in the AFC East."

Oh WOW, I've watched the Browns since the days of Jim Brown- in person- so I out rank you. If you think being in the military somehow relates to pro football,sorry- it doesn't.  

[hoorta]

2 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

The initial hostility was during the draft. I simply commented on looking back. History is important.

How about you and your two haters STFU and let other people have opinions too? we don't need your stinking permission.

Okay. Now I'm done, and yes, you all stunk up the thread and killed it, and now you complain about the stink.

Have a nice day.

Cal, you stunk it up holding on to an untenable position.    

[calfoxwc]

1 minute ago, hoorta said:

Cal, you stunk it up holding on to an untenable position.    

Hey now, my dumb opinions are no cause for stink. Just ignore em. Certain folks can't let others have

opinions around here. Tiam and Tour didn't have to open the thread at all. and the rest of us don't need no stinking permission from them.

Have a nice day.

[tiamat63]

Brilliantly sums up those who use the word "haters".  Especially cringe worthy when it's anyone over the age of 16...

 

 

[jrb12711]

The biggest thing people need to see (or realize) in both Jackson's and Allen's cases is how important organization, coaching, and scheming are to the success of a football team. 

People quickly are forgetting Harbaugh was a bit "on the bubble" (which I thought was absurd) last year. The way the Ravens drafted these last two years specifically was built to play into Jackson's obvious God given ability to play the game. Unfortunately, we're seeing in many ways the exact opposite here in Cleveland lately. The reason we have 5 wins is strictly due to talent, but we're never going to "get over the hump" until we move into this mode of thinking,

[calfoxwc]

2 hours ago, jrb12711 said:

The biggest thing people need to see (or realize) in both Jackson's and Allen's cases is how important organization, coaching, and scheming are to the success of a football team. 

People quickly are forgetting Harbaugh was a bit "on the bubble" (which I thought was absurd) last year. The way the Ravens drafted these last two years specifically was built to play into Jackson's obvious God given ability to play the game. Unfortunately, we're seeing in many ways the exact opposite here in Cleveland lately. The reason we have 5 wins is strictly due to talent, but we're never going to "get over the hump" until we move into this mode of thinking,

   This is also true. I hate to see Kitchens blamed for not winning, though - why is it the head coach is always to blame? The responsibility is on his shoulders, "buck falls here" ...but I wonder if we just need a different person calling the plays, maybe a different db coach.

And one look at the depth chart recently - the depth is playing in too many areas. Our offensive line - when I heard that Chubb is on pace for 1600 yards? I was flat out amazed. I would have loved for the defense to have stayed healthy, and they are still a very good defense.

   Anyways, we've all seen years where the Browns played like they knew it was hopeless, and just seemed to have quit.

These Browns kick ass and leave it all out on the field. These Browns love Freddie Kitchens. Firing ANOTHER HC is just not doing anything to fix the Browns' weaknesses. Dorsey needs to be more careful about the chances he takes on players.

FOR INSTANCE - it's true, btw - Josh Rosen hasn't had a good team to play on....but...

LT ronnie stanley - 1st round, pick 6 (balt) 2016
OG bradley boseman - 6th round (Balt)2018
Patrick Mekari - UDFA rookie (BALT)2019
Marshal Yanda - 3rd round (Balt) 2007
Orlando Brown, Jr - 3rd round (Balt) 2018

This is the ratbirds' offensive line. They pay attention to it.

I mean - JOE FLACCO ? They could put different qb's back there and the qb could play.

Lamar Jackson is just a spectacular athlete. The problem is, drafting and making mistakes. That isn't Freddie Kitchens' fault.

The Browns are very, very close. Agonizing, yes. But very, very close. Just not...there...yet. dammit.

[Tour2ma]

On 12/3/2019 at 2:36 PM, calfoxwc said:

which means absolutely nothing and isn't true. I've been watching the Browns since the early days. Leroy Kelly, etc. Wasn't a Jim Brown fan. attitude. I'm not pretending anything. I knew outstanding leaders in the military, and alpha male pretenders who can't be disagreed with because it deflates their core. Then, they go into a thread and make it belligerent and personal. I don't post very much...but I'm not going to kiss your pinko ring because you played football and I didn't.

       Brag on how you played football - I don't care. Plenty of guys who played football were stupid in life, and screwed up their lives.

I simply post from different references, to respond to your bitching that I didn't play football. Phil Robertson had the freaking talent. Bradshaw knows far more than you, and he says Robertson had all the talent in the world,

Ignore it all you want - to protect your ego, but you are extremely pissed, sorry bout that, but Phil Robertson's heart wasn't in it. And he decided he didn't want to play for money. There are guys who did decide to play for money, and some languish around the NFL, some ruin their careers with off the field garbage, etc.

    That is a lack of character on the latter.

I have never commented on your having played or not played football, because I never knew whether you did or not.

Seeing leadership up close, in real life is a far different from divining it thru a TV set.  The latter is what you pretend you can do.

Everything else in your post is pure projection on your part since I'm not pissed and my ego is certainly not threatened by you.

Pinko ring? Weird comment coming from Kremlin Kal.

Who the fuck is Phil Robertson?

[Tour2ma]

Wow.... the page turned after I made the above reply and there were three more fevered posts by the "non-pissed" Kal... lol

20 hours ago, hoorta said:

Oh WOW, I've watched the Browns since the days of Jim Brown- in person- so I out rank you.

Wow... me, too, h...

20 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

Tiam and Tour didn't have to open the thread at all...

Wouldn't have seemed right since you wrote it for us.

[gumby73]

One of these Josh's is not like the Other...glad I could help..    how did we get here?    

[calfoxwc]

10 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I have never commented on your having played or not played football, because I never knew whether you did or not.

Seeing leadership up close, in real life is a far different from divining it thru a TV set.  The latter is what you pretend you can do.

Everything else in your post is pure projection on your part since I'm not pissed and my ego is certainly not threatened by you.

Pinko ring? Weird comment coming from Kremlin Kal.

Who the fuck is Phil Robertson?

But your little attack weasel Tiam did, and you back him up like you're his nanny. How do you think you don't see leadership in the military? Stop and think. You think the military is watching TV ? what the...

"Seeing leadership up close" because you played FOOTBALL ? You just did what I said you did. lol

If you ego isn't threatened, what the heck are you doing entering this thread and getting all antagonistic about my op? "pinko ring" is a retort towards "kremlin kal" whatever that means. and keep your politics off this forum, pulleaze.

  I've already posted about Phil Robertson. He was the starting qb ahead of Terry Bradshaw in college. Bradshaw said it himself - he may never have won superbowls if Phil hadn't quit football to get back to the woods, hunting and fishing, which he loved.

   Phil Robertson is the father of the rest of the Robertson family - the show was "Duck Dynasty".

[tiamat63]

Attack weasel? ... Honestly, that's about as close to a Mongoose as I'm going to get from you -   So I'll take that as a compliment. 

 

To recap before captain manboobs carries on.... He's referencing a thread from the Poli board.  Can't remember exactly how it started, which is about the norm for most of the shit spewed there.

Basically I was offered up an insult about "leadership" and locker room camaraderie on the football field.  I politely reminded (sarcasm) you-know-who, that he has no idea what he's talking about.  Both in the sense that he has no idea, but also that he himself has never set foot on a field or locker room.

Pretty sure I tossed in a 'fake tough guy' jab just to slap a bow on it. 

In my defense, if he didn't say dumb and insulting shit, I wouldn't have had to call him out.  So who's really at fault here? 

[calfoxwc]

Seeing leadership up close, in real life is a far different from divining it thru a TV set.  The latter is what you pretend you can do.TOUR

********************************************

LOL. you are being an ass now. Here's a few things you can know - my apprenticeship in a machine shop ran out a year after high school, and immediately I got drafted in 1970. They saw the big 11" scar on my knee, at the physical...having had it restructured the summer after the ninth grade, and ended up telling me they were sending me home because my knee wouldn't last one week in basic.

Everything else but my knee was perfect.

   2 1/2 years later, I enlisted - there was going to be a huge long strike at Dad's work, and it was going to be hostile and last months. And, a rubber company closed, and there were thousands of those employees frantically signing up for every job. So...

   I enlisted. They weren't going to let me in, but I enlisted in the Air Force, because the Navy recruiter looked at the xray I showed him of my knee and he said he didn't think they would let my knee into any branch - but a remote possibility was the Air Force - it was the shortest.

   So I did. And they were going to send me home, but I told them why I did it, and how they had to give me that chance. After another three doctors there consulted, the two doctors came over and said "son, you have too much gumption for your own good, ...but we're going to give you that chance - but ...only...because it's the shortest basic. We hope you make it son, but that knee... you're going to need some luck."

  Towards the end of my enlistment, like I told your little buddy Tiamsies, I was asked to join OSI. OSI is the Air Force version of NCIS in the Navy/Marines. My squadron commander said in all his years - he had only one other person recruited to the OSI, and that it was a very high honor.

  But, I had a bad knee, and figured my knee couldn't take anymore. Too bad. But I'm a bit like Phil Robertson - hunting and fishing with my Dad was calling me back home. I never intended to be a lifer.

After I retired, my knee was so bad, my Wife cried, and insisted I had to go get a new knee. 

   Yeah, you played football and only you know about leadership? Incredibly small of you, Tour. You have no idea.

[tiamat63]

Just looking at the date of this thread and a couple others, I really just think Cal got bored over the holiday break. 

Very sweet he would think of us though.

[calfoxwc]

6 minutes ago, tiamat63 said:

Just looking at the date of this thread and a couple others, I really just think Cal got bored over the holiday break. 

Very sweet he would think of us though.

   Actually, it only came up because we played Buffalo and Miami, and Canton Mike and I went and watched us play the Bills. We got to see first hand how Allen is coming along.  So, it was raining and I didn't want to go work in the barn splitting more wood, I was doing some online Christmas shopping, and...

   I posted it. What goes around, Comes around. Have a nice day.

[Flugel]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:53 PM, Tour2ma said:

I do.... except Orton wasn't a runner.

CHI then was much the same situation as BUF today where D plus run game (now including their QB) has been the order of the day. And while Allen has developed some as a passer, he still is not "franchise" caliber in my book. Not saying he never will be... just saying I still don't like his odds.

As for AZ.... a lot more has changed than just the QB.

I don't disagree with some of your Allen points.  I just said it looks like I was wrong when I said I'd rather have Rosen than Allen if we didn't get either of my top 2 choices (Baker & Darnold-Duck). To me it seemed Rosen played against better DI competition alongside better DI competitors; and wasn't as overwhelmed as Allen was by the tougher parts of the schedule.  Both guys have strong arms and Rosen's game numbers reflected a more accurate passer in college.

Now that it's not college any more and we've seen a guy like Baker Mayfield not need any excuses as a rookie drafted by an 0-16 football team - it should remind us the right QB can take  a winless football team (even in 2018 they were 0-1-1 and sporting a 14 point deficit the first time he took the field and erased it).  They were also without Joe Thomas at LT and relying on a backup/fill-in starter only in Pitt as our RT with Hue as our Head Coach to remind you this wasn't exactly Easy Street.  

So, here's where we are today with our debate about Rosen vrs Allen.  One guy has improved and become a credible leader of a team that is 9-3.  The other guy isn't good enough to start over Ryan Fitzpatrick as we speak. Rosen led Miami to 0-6 while Ryan Fitzpatrick has the same teammates 3-3.

After 12 games, Allen had a 10 TD:12 INT ratio, 52.8 comp % (w/8 rushing TDs) & 8 fumbles 2 lost as a rookie in 2018.

After 12 games, Allen has a 16TD:8 INT ratio, 61.5 comp % (w/8 rushing TDs) & 12 fumbles 3 lost in 2019.

In 14 games, Rosen had a 11 TD:14 INT ratio, 55.2 comp % (w/0 rushing TDs) & 10 fumbles 5 lost as a rookie in 2018.

In 6 games, Rosen has a 1 TD:5 INT ratio, 53.2 comp % (w/0 rushing TDs) & 1 fumble 0 lost in 2019.

Since then in Miami:

In 6 games, Fitzpatrick has a 13 TD:11 INT ratio, 62.8 comp % (w/3 rushing TDs) & 2 fumbles 0 lost in 2019.

Once upon a time, there was a guy that was often called the most pro-ready QB of his draft class (pre-draft) by scouts and draftniks. Brady Quinn was smart enough for a 4.0 GPA but it never expedited his ability to read through his progressions quick enough for the speed of the game.  He also wasn't very good at throwing guys open.  His inability to be on time with the throw never allowed him to be the man or elevate the play of teammates regardless of what round he was drafted in.  I see some of this in Rosen while you don't want to. Until Rosen proves otherwise, I'm comfortable saying I think Josh Allen is the better QB overall in today's game.  He's improving while Rosen hasn't. 

[jrb12711]

IDK if it's been said, but a bit more on topic. I'm not sure you could possibly point to a "worse" situation a young QB has been placed into in recent memory than Rosen. I'm not going to pretend I wasn't a big Rosen guy, but Allen (like Jackson) has been put in a system and organization who gave him a chance to excel. The Cardinals and Dolphins are the literal opposite of that.

[calfoxwc]

34 minutes ago, jrb12711 said:

IDK if it's been said, but a bit more on topic. I'm not sure you could possibly point to a "worse" situation a young QB has been placed into in recent memory than Rosen. I'm not going to pretend I wasn't a big Rosen guy, but Allen (like Jackson) has been put in a system and organization who gave him a chance to excel. The Cardinals and Dolphins are the literal opposite of that.

He did go to a bad team/bad offensive line.

Last year, end of the 2017 season...Arizona's offensive line was rated 27th..

but Buffalo's offensive line was rated 29th.

that's per https://www.pff.com/news/pro-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-teams-units-entering-2018

The upside is Rosen admitted he realized he had to change things about himself, how he approached the game,

etc etc, by watching Fitz. Should be interesting to see how much he improves before next season.