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calfoxwc

Looking back - Josh Allen vs Josh Rosen

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On 11/30/2019 at 7:40 AM, Flugel said:

I don't get the same vibe I got when the Bears once went something like 10-3 with Kyle Orton game managing them in the absence of Rex Grossman.

I do.... except Orton wasn't a runner.

CHI then was much the same situation as BUF today where D plus run game (now including their QB) has been the order of the day. And while Allen has developed some as a passer, he still is not "franchise" caliber in my book. Not saying he never will be... just saying I still don't like his odds.

As for AZ.... a lot more has changed than just the QB.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

the problem with this argument is that when the Dolphins made the switch to Fitz(a crappy veteran journeyman by all accounts) it was clear he was a major upgrade over Rosen.  That's why fins fans were ticked, because they were hoping to continue losing every game and going from the disaster Rosen was to more marginally capable qb play hurt those chances.  If a marginally capable crappy journeyman vet comes in and is CLEARLY the superior option, what the hell does that say about Rosen?

Has Rosen been put in dumpster fire type situations at both places?  Sure, but he also looks like he sucks.  At least that seems to be the consensus. 

If the Dolphins were to move on from Rosen after this year, they would get almost nothing for him.  Like 5th round pick type value.  Which speaks to how everyone in the nfl views him now.  There is nothing that says a qb can't be thrown into poor situations and also suck.  That very much appears to be the case with Mr Rosen.

And I don't know jack about college to nfl qb evaluations and liked rosen coming out of UCLA too, but I can admit he's looked pretty poor.

And I'm not sure why you bring up character issues in defending Rosen.  That was some(admittedly BS) whispers 2 years ago.  Now nobody cares about that in the least and the issue has nothing to do with that. 

Last first...I did not raise the character issue... the OP did.... just as he has from Day 1.

Fitz isn't a "crappy" vet.... he's a scrappy vet who has had success everywhere he has not been expected to be the franchise guy. And, yes, he has been superior... even CLEARLY superior in a scrappy, grizzled veteran kind of way. He's sparked the team and I would not be surprised if he re-upped with MIA in 2020 to mentor their new QB as seem to have decided that Rosen is not their QB of the future.

Bad situations tend to produce suck... that's all I'm saying. Better does not guarantee better, but as Tannehill is discovering there can be life after the Fins. I hope Rosen gets a similar shot as a backup somewhere so we really can evaluate him. There's a good chance of this since his price won't be high... a 5th seems ball-parkish.

7 minutes ago, Tacosman said:

If you had to rate their level of NFL success/performance to this point you would have to give Allen about a 4 I guess and Rosen a 0. 

4 to 0 seems fair.... for now.

 

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Hey for what it's worth I thought that Josh Rosen was probably going to be the guy most ready to step into an NFL quarterback job. As you know my heart said Baker Mayfield. I'm glad I was wrong about Rosen and I'm glad we don't have him. I don't care about Josh Allen ' or Sam Darnold and I don't care about Lamar Jackson.

WSS

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Rosen is an arrogant prick. Recall when the 10th player chosen in the draft said that the 9 picks in front of him were mistakes..

Looks like his comment came back to bite him. Looking back at the top 10 picks, it's apparent Rosen was the first mistake. Glad to be witnessing his demise.

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Rosen is a self absorbed prick.. Couldnt happen to a bigger dickhead...

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I'm just curious as to the point or end-game for this thread?  Right now it screams of self aggrandizing.

We're not comparing for the sake of opponent evaluation, pro bowl roster merits or the like...   So what conclusion are we looking to reach here that doesnt involve thinly veiled and vague insults? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm just curious as to the point or end-game for this thread?  Right now it screams of self aggrandizing.

We're not comparing for the sake of opponent evaluation, pro bowl roster merits or the like...   So what conclusion are we looking to reach here that doesnt involve thinly veiled and vague insults?

   How about - the importance of evaluating character...leadership...love for the game... in the future. Like, in draft picks?

The Browns chose wisely for a qb. The teams who picked rudoolph and rosen picked wrongley. ....wrongly? lol.

  The calloway/corbett/Gordon desperation chances taken... keep holding the Browns back. If the point was self-aggrandizing - hardly, I can be wrong about stuff - but I think it's important after that fiasco - to look at the hearts of players, not just how they test in workouts. Not on the narrow focus of "best pocket passer in the draft".

   I like the second chance thing, but it seems it's all too often like rolling the dice, and the Browns, as well as other teams, lose their money. The old saying "those who don't know/ignore history tend to repeat it" is more the point.

  Maybe a good example is Corbett. About the same size as Bitonio,.... but Bitonio has the heart of a lion, as does Joe Thomas.

But Corbett? has only started two games, played in three since he left the Browns? Nope. No fierceness to compete, let alone win.

No love for the game, no heart. The lack of attention paid to the red flags on character/leadership in his nfl profiles... is just too bad for the team that drafted him. It shows, that's all.

   I didn't start it to call out the few who got extremely nasty and belligerent about being disagreed with. Are you feeling guilty? Methinks thou dost complain too much.   lol

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33 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

   How about - the importance of evaluating character...leadership...love for the game... in the future. Like, in draft picks?

The Browns chose wisely for a qb. The teams who picked rudoolph and rosen picked wrongley. ....wrongly? lol.

  The calloway/corbett/Gordon desperation chances taken... keep holding the Browns back. If the point was self-aggrandizing - hardly, I can be wrong about stuff - but I think it's important after that fiasco - to look at the hearts of players, not just how they test in workouts. Not on the narrow focus of "best pocket passer in the draft".

   I like the second chance thing, but it seems it's all too often like rolling the dice, and the Browns, as well as other teams, lose their money. The old saying "those who don't know/ignore history tend to repeat it" is more the point.

  Maybe a good example is Corbett. About the same size as Bitonio,.... but Bitonio has the heart of a lion, as does Joe Thomas.

But Corbett? has only started two games, played in three since he left the Browns? Nope. No fierceness to compete, let alone win.

No love for the game, no heart. The lack of attention paid to the red flags on character/leadership in his nfl profiles... is just too bad for the team that drafted him. It shows, that's all.

   I didn't start it to call out the few who got extremely nasty and belligerent about being disagreed with. Are you feeling guilty? Methinks thou dost complain too much.   lol

Not even one nanny nanny boo boo? 

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5 hours ago, tiamat63 said:

I'm just curious as to the point or end-game for this thread?  Right now it screams of self aggrandizing.

I'm here for the juxtaposition of Kal's and Kompany's character evaluations.

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On 11/30/2019 at 3:25 PM, nickers said:

I'm not wanting him to face injury.. I just want him to flame out.. I want him to get fat , happy and resting on his laurels.... Defenses have to quit playing into his hands like the Clams did... And quit being mentally scared of him...

RG3 was a low IQ runner.  He banged into people out of bounds and broke his arm, could not slide.  Lamar is the Walter Payton of zig zag.

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2 hours ago, Ibleedbrown said:

Not even one nanny nanny boo boo? 

Nope, I'm much too humble.

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13 hours ago, nickers said:

Rosen is a self absorbed prick.. Couldnt happen to a bigger dickhead...

That's precisely how everyone outside of NEO views Baker,  and he's done little to dispute that so far. 

At the present - Lamar Jackson is clearly better than all the others combined.  It's not even close.

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30 minutes ago, SD_Tom said:

That's precisely how everyone outside of NEO views Baker,  and he's done little to dispute that so far. 

At the present - Lamar Jackson is clearly better than all the others combined.  It's not even close.

which is complete bs. Baker has outstanding leadership. and a fierce love of competition. Jackson is succeeding so far only because of his amazing athletic talent in scrambling. It didn't work much for him vs the Browns early on. He CAN throw, too, but it depends on the wr/secondary matchups. We'll see if he can continue the magic. He has the offensive line and defense..... etc etc.

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3 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

I'm here for the juxtaposition of Kal's and Kompany's character evaluations.

It's like the Political Board puked all over the Browns forum. 

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22 hours ago, Gorka said:

Rosen is an arrogant prick. Recall when the 10th player chosen in the draft said that the 9 picks in front of him were mistakes..

Looks like his comment came back to bite him. Looking back at the top 10 picks, it's apparent Rosen was the first mistake. Glad to be witnessing his demise.

The difference between you and me. I don't cheer for anyone else's failure. FWIW, just having enough athletic talent to make it to an NFL tryout, much less an active roster is a tremendously talented individual. Way back in High School we had the Juniors- Seniors Intramural Championship basketball game. I was on the Junior team, I mentioned elsewhere I had enough athletic talent to win a couple letters in tennis on the collegiate level. The Seniors had a couple guys skilled enough to get full scholarship rides to major colleges. LZ was the starting tailback for Ohio State behind John Brockington. I got to witness what sub 4.4 speed looked like up close and personal. Oh, he got a tryout to the Browns training camp, blew out his knee and that was the end of his pro career. 

21 hours ago, nickers said:

Rosen is a self absorbed prick.. Couldnt happen to a bigger dickhead...

Have you ever met him? :D Tell me about it....  

11 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

   How about - the importance of evaluating character...leadership...love for the game... in the future. Like, in draft picks?

The Browns chose wisely for a qb. The teams who picked rudoolph and rosen picked wrongley. ....wrongly? lol.

  The calloway/corbett/Gordon desperation chances taken... keep holding the Browns back. If the point was self-aggrandizing - hardly, I can be wrong about stuff - but I think it's important after that fiasco - to look at the hearts of players, not just how they test in workouts. Not on the narrow focus of "best pocket passer in the draft".

   I like the second chance thing, but it seems it's all too often like rolling the dice, and the Browns, as well as other teams, lose their money. The old saying "those who don't know/ignore history tend to repeat it" is more the point.

  Maybe a good example is Corbett. About the same size as Bitonio,.... but Bitonio has the heart of a lion, as does Joe Thomas.

But Corbett? has only started two games, played in three since he left the Browns? Nope. No fierceness to compete, let alone win.

No love for the game, no heart. The lack of attention paid to the red flags on character/leadership in his nfl profiles... is just too bad for the team that drafted him. It shows, that's all.

   I didn't start it to call out the few who got extremely nasty and belligerent about being disagreed with. Are you feeling guilty? Methinks thou dost complain too much.   lol

Sorry Cal- it's more about talent.  Calloway and Gordon were certainly known character risks, but not lacking in the talent department. Plenty other talented guys have flamed out in the past over drugs. 

Corbett was a talent mistake- it happens. I don't buy that crap he wasn't trying as hard as he humanly could.  Possible Rosen may eventually fail in talent category, but if you think he's riding the pine because of an attitude problem? BS!!!!   There's been say around a dozen or two- of highly drafted qbs that failed because of faulty talent evaluation. Joey Harrington and Akilli Smith immediately come to mind.  FAR more talent goofs than character goofs like the all time bust Ryan Leaf, Todd Marijanovich, or our own Johnny Football. 

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1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

which is complete bs. Baker has outstanding leadership. and a fierce love of competition.

Jackson is succeeding so far only because of his amazing athletic talent in scrambling.

 

It didn't work much for him vs the Browns early on. He CAN throw, too, but it depends on the wr/secondary matchups. We'll see if he can continue the magic. He has the offensive line and defense..... etc etc.

Which is funny because, to many eyes here, that wasn't always such the case.  Especially during the rough start to the current season.   Being loud and "fierce" doesn't always = leadership.

Interesting in that one of your dismissals of Rosen was noting Murray's success.   Not acknowledging the fact that Kyler is every bit as dangerous of a short area scrambler as Lamar.  Yet here you are dismissing LJ as being successful ONLY because of his athletic talent.     Quite the spin spin.

Right now all I'm seeing are a bunch of half concocted cliche's about "leadership" and "heart".  Of which we have no true measure for and more importantly for the sake of this counter argument - do not appear to be anything resembling the reasons for Rosen's current lack of success.        Hoorta is right, Talent is superior to all.  If not, Tim Tebow would be the best to lace em' up.

Sorry, but this thread is premature.   And it's also a bit early to talk about being humble while attempting taking a victory lap 3/4 of the way through year 2.

 

edit: And is this "leadership" "heart" and "Character" something you've always evaluated on?      Because if you're going to claim this as your grand victory of insight into players some of us don't see, then we can always peep back over to your oversight of one Johnny Manziel.   But I don't think we care to go back down that road.

double edit:  Mostly because I remember beating you over the head with it then.    So lets do something smart and revisit this thread in another year or 2.

 

at ease.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dutch Oven said:

It's like the Political Board puked all over the Browns forum. 

I just went back and re-read the posts and the only one who puked politics all over this topic was you.

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1 hour ago, hoorta said:

The difference between you and me. I don't cheer for anyone else's failure.  

Not even a top Steeler draft pick?

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31 minutes ago, Gorka said:

I just went back and re-read the posts and the only one who puked politics all over this topic was you.

Aren't you the guy who referred to someone as a "Jew Boy"? 

Your opinion means nothing. Lucky for you, the mods are lenient with the racists on this board. 

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

Because if you're going to claim this as your grand victory of insight into players some of us don't see, then we can always peep back over to your oversight of one Johnny Manziel.   But I don't think we care to go back down that road.

double edit:  Mostly because I remember beating you over the head with it then.    So lets do something smart and revisit this thread in another year or 2.

yep, you called yourself out. lol and you erred about Johnny Manziel. Ask Canton Mike - I despised a pick of manziel. I had zero use for him before the draft.

If you want to get all outraged about it, why enter the thread in the first place? It isn't a "grand victory" - it's what I value. It's how I'm wired, you can take it or leave it. Shove it, even.

  There are plenty of examples of physical talent that fizzles out because the heart isn't there. The character isn't there. the love for the game isn't there. Corbett was fairly highly regarded in the draft. I was shocked we took him where we did.

  More than a few players in the NFL have said that when they got to the pros, everybody was really good back in college. It's a step up in  competition. For a guy like Corbett, he had a nice chance of being the superior talent. In the pros, it's a war. And Corbett played LT, taking over for....Bitonio. So, you'd think he would be a safe bet. Similar physical talent obviously.  So what is the difference? Seems obvious to me.

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4 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

yep, you called yourself out. lol and you erred about Johnny Manziel. Ask Canton Mike - I despised a pick of manziel. I had zero use for him before the draft.

If you want to get all outraged about it, why enter the thread in the first place? It isn't a "grand victory" - it's what I value. It's how I'm wired, you can take it or leave it. Shove it, even.

  There are plenty of examples of physical talent that fizzles out because the heart isn't there. The character isn't there. the love for the game isn't there. Corbett was fairly highly regarded in the draft. I was shocked we took him where we did.

  More than a few players in the NFL have said that when they got to the pros, everybody was really good back in college. It's a step up in  competition. For a guy like Corbett, he had a nice chance of being the superior talent. In the pros, it's a war. And Corbett played LT, taking over for....Bitonio. So, you'd think he would be a safe bet. Similar physical talent obviously.  So what is the difference? Seems obvious to me.

It's almost impressive how little this guy knows about football AND how completely he lacks any self-awareness. 

Almost impressive. 

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1 hour ago, tiamat63 said:

 Being loud and "fierce" doesn't always = leadership.

Interesting in that one of your dismissals of Rosen was noting Murray's success.   Not acknowledging the fact that Kyler is every bit as dangerous of a short area scrambler as Lamar.  Yet here you are dismissing LJ as being successful ONLY because of his athletic talent.     Quite the spin spin.

 egad. really? NOBODY is saying "fierce" = leadership. I said "fierce love of competition".

and everybody in the NFL knows Kyler is that dangerous as a scrambler. But Murray is far more an accomplished passer.  It's not spin at all. in nearly the same number of games started, one game different - Lamar's TD passes - 30. Kyler's TD passes - 42.  Look at completion percentage. Lamar - 59.1. Kyler 85.7. Rushing attempts - 260 - Lamar. Only 140 rushing attempts for Murray. It's just a fact. Lamar relied far more on rushing, and Murray is far more the passing qb who can also run like crazy. So, I've shown that what I was saying is true. Your turn. Just whining about "character and leadership" being subjective doesn't cut it. Go ask Flugels about being an offensive lineman. He's a bit smallish for that. But he had that fierce competitiveness and love for the game that coaches love.

Games Started (GS)

Lamar Jackson 13 (2017)
 
 
Kyler Murray 14 (2018)
 
 

Touchdown Passes (TD)

Lamar Jackson 30 (2016)
 
 
Kyler Murray 42 (2018)
 
 
   
 
 
   

 

Completion Percentage (Cmp%)
Lamar Jackson     59.1 (2017)     
Kyler Murray     85.7 (2017)   
 

Rushing Attempts (Att)
Lamar Jackson     260 (2016)     
Kyler Murray     140 (2018)
    

Rushing Yards (Yds)
Lamar Jackson     1601 (2017)     
Kyler Murray     1001 (2018)     

Rushing Touchdowns (TD)
Lamar Jackson     21 (2016)     
Kyler Murray     12 (2018)

 
 
     
     

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15 hours ago, hoorta said:

Sorry Cal- it's more about talent.  Calloway and Gordon were certainly known character risks, but not lacking in the talent department. Plenty other talented guys have flamed out in the past over drugs. 

Corbett was a talent mistake- it happens. I don't buy that crap he wasn't trying as hard as he humanly could.  Possible Rosen may eventually fail in talent category, but if you think he's riding the pine because of an attitude problem? BS!!!!   There's been say around a dozen or two- of highly drafted qbs that failed because of faulty talent evaluation. Joey Harrington and Akilli Smith immediately come to mind.  FAR more talent goofs than character goofs like the all time bust Ryan Leaf, Todd Marijanovich, or our own Johnny Football. 

    Well, talent is evaled with film and the combine.  Calloway and Gordon had HUGE TALENT. But that is my point. Without a love for the game, the desire to excel....

   Corbett took over at LT in Bitonio's place. They thought they were getting another Bitonio. They both were athletic, about the same size physically. But Corbett failed. So, it isn't about talent. It's about loving the fierce competition, loving the game. I think there is far too much money in the NFL - kids will play it for the money, when they don't care to be a great or even good player. They really don't care about the team, winning. They care about the $$$$$$$, and they don't like the jump in competition - in the pros, I've heard several NFL players say, everybody was good in college. You have to step it up to a higher level in the pros"

   I often think of Phil Robertson, of the Duck Dynasty show, and his family down in West Munroe, La. Phil watched a flock of ducks fly over at the practice field one day, realized he didn't care about football. He dearly loved the woods, hunting and fishing. He went to his backup qb at Louisiana Tech, and told him to go be a star in the pros - he was leaving to go back to the woods, to duck hunting, and his outdoor life.

   In case anyone doesn't know this story, Phil's backup in college, was...Terry Bradshaw.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=terry+bradshaw+phil+robertson&docid=608024152718510609&mid=6DEB5CA51C6F5384081E6DEB5CA51C6F5384081E&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

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I think of this a good bit - the desire to play football - or not...and the desire to work and strive to accomplish a major objective.

    Phil didn't care much - he knew he loved the freedom - he had that passion for the outdoor life.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=terry+bradshaw+phil+robertson&&view=detail&mid=7A2588168D30DBC330307A2588168D30DBC33030&rvsmid=A0C60A53FF4B46306B31A0C60A53FF4B46306B31&FORM=VDQVAP

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38 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

    Well, talent is evaled with film and the combine.  Calloway and Gordon had HUGE TALENT. But that is my point. Without a love for the game, the desire to excel....

   Corbett took over at LT in Bitonio's place. They thought they were getting another Bitonio. They both were athletic, about the same size physically. But Corbett failed. So, it isn't about talent. It's about loving the fierce competition, loving the game. I think there is far too much money in the NFL - kids will play it for the money, when they don't care to be a great or even good player. They really don't care about the team, winning. They care about the $$$$$$$, and they don't like the jump in competition - in the pros, I've heard several NFL players say, everybody was good in college. You have to step it up to a higher level in the pros"

   I often think of Phil Robertson, of the Duck Dynasty show, and his family down in West Munroe, La. Phil watched a flock of ducks fly over at the practice field one day, realized he didn't care about football. He dearly loved the woods, hunting and fishing. He went to his backup qb at Louisiana Tech, and told him to go be a star in the pros - he was leaving to go back to the woods, to duck hunting, and his outdoor life.

   In case anyone doesn't know this story, Phil's backup in college, was...Terry Bradshaw.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=terry+bradshaw+phil+robertson&docid=608024152718510609&mid=6DEB5CA51C6F5384081E6DEB5CA51C6F5384081E&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

& I think  you're  dead wrong,  at least in the case of Corbett, and probably  a lot of  other cases. You're  putting your  opinion  on desire to excell and compete on something  that can't be  quantified,  especially at an armchair quarterback's  distance. You're  doing a  disservice  to Corbett  if you somehow  have it in your mind he failed  because of  lack of  desire. You're  plain talking  out your  ass about  something  you have no clue about.  

Most of us guys are operating on  a  junior  HS level compared to  pro  coaches graduate school evaluations why a guy isn't  making the  grade. 

There's  guys who were so incredibly  talented (say Randy Moss and Eric Dickerson) who could excel  even if they didn't  give a crap about the  game.

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    It's just my opinion from observing. When it comes to sports - that's all I have. But I don't think you played pro football either.

You haven't been in the military. I know about leadership, character, and being fiercely driven to succeed...etc - . But I wouldn't say you or anybody else was "talking out of your ass" because you weren't in the military.....

I see no reason Corbett wouldn't become a star for a team like Bitonio. Except...he doesn't care enough. What else opinion would you give it? Bitonio's size, he played LT in college, but he can't play OG ? He did fine taking over for Bitonio at LT. He had the talent.

    You are confusing the issues. Of course Randy Moss could hate football, and still play it because he had high talent...and he craves the money. Some guys are not all about the big money. They don't want to play. I knew a kid - I was a stand in asst scoutmaster while their scoutmaster was on leave back in Israel ...with the military or intel training or something... and my best friend went on to Ohio State...in a Boy Scout troop. 14 yrs old, 5'11", 248 lbs. And very, very athletic. His sister was a cheerleader - and he could do a perfect cartwheel.

He was amazing. I told him he should be a successful football player with a college scholarship if he kept at it.

He shook his head and said he played for a while and hated it. He loved the outdoors, was going to become a national park ranger. He LOVED the outdoors, too. He had the talent, didn't want to play. Had he played in college, I can easily imagine he would have been a fine player...Deion Sanders talked about how he was driven, completely driven to play football since he was a very young kid.

    You say talent is everything, but a Calloway falters because he didn't love football and succeeding much, because he loved dope/whatever more. Some wr's don't love the game enough to risk getting clobbered over the middle. Some don't study their playbook like the should. Some hate to practice. etc etc. Some TE's don't like to block.

  and back to Rosen - he absolutely HAD THE TALENT. So don't be po'd at me about being wrong. Apparently, I was not talking out of my ass about that, was I? And Josh Allen is NOT garbage, is he?

https://www.si.com/college-football/campus-union/2012/03/22/duck-punt-how-phil-robertson-found-stardom-after-giving-up-football

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So, FACT: The Arizona Cardinals draft The Chosen Rosen, then dump him like a hot rock for only a second round pick, and after being traded to Miami, he still isn't (yet) starting.

  Now, instead of getting all personal, why don't you or Tiam or Tour explain why, with Rosen being "the by far best NFL ready best pocket passer" was traded by Arizona, and still not starting with Miami?

  He has the talent? right? So. what's up, doc?

  The qb I wanted, obviously, was Allen, who struggled his first year, but has improved and they are headed towards at least a wild card to the playoffs in Allen's second year.

  I only brought it up to talk about evaluating players based on how great they WANT to be, and not so much on how great they COULD BE if they cared enough to work at it, which doesn't exclude talent level at all, of course.

  If it was all that simple, then why did Arizona make the mistake? They know more about football than anybody else around here.

  

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50 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

They know more about football than anybody else around here.

... but according to you less about leadership.

You continue to pretend that thru observation you can evaluate the intangibles, leadership, heart, etc., when you have never shown the ability to evaluate the tangibles that are there for all to see. Then you simply embrace any media that supports your take and reject any other.

It's the same in every section of this Forum. It's just less dangerous in this section.

19 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

which is complete bs. Baker has outstanding leadership. and a fierce love of competition. Jackson is succeeding so far only because of his amazing athletic talent in scrambling. It didn't work much for him vs the Browns early on. He CAN throw, too, but it depends on the wr/secondary matchups. We'll see if he can continue the magic. He has the offensive line and defense..... etc etc.

lol... Is that why Ravens' players surround Jackson and chant "MVP"?

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1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

Now, instead of getting all personal, why don't you or Tiam or Tour explain why, with Rosen being "the by far best NFL ready best pocket passer" was traded by Arizona, and still not starting with Miami?

Easy... neither team gave him a pocket.

... and you do not seem to be aware that Rosen did get starts in Miami.

 

As for the trade... also easy... when AZ hired Kingsbury it was clear that they were no longer going to run an Offense that matched Rosen's skill set. So after drafting that style QB in Murray they immediately traded him for that year's #32 overall plus a 5th-round pick in 2020, which is not nothing especially in light of him clearly not being  part of AZ's future.

 

Any other questions?

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2 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

.. but according to you less about leadership.

You continue to pretend that thru observation you can evaluate the intangibles, leadership, heart, etc., when you have never shown the ability to evaluate the tangibles that are there for all to see. Then you simply embrace any media that supports your take and reject any other.

It's the same in every section of this Forum. It's just less dangerous in this section.

which means absolutely nothing and isn't true. I've been watching the Browns since the early days. Leroy Kelly, etc. Wasn't a Jim Brown fan. attitude. I'm not pretending anything. I knew outstanding leaders in the military, and alpha male pretenders who can't be disagreed with because it deflates their core. Then, they go into a thread and make it belligerent and personal. I don't post very much...but I'm not going to kiss your pinko ring because you played football and I didn't.

       Brag on how you played football - I don't care. Plenty of guys who played football were stupid in life, and screwed up their lives.

I simply post from different references, to respond to your bitching that I didn't play football. Phil Robertson had the freaking talent. Bradshaw knows far more than you, and he says Robertson had all the talent in the world,

Ignore it all you want - to protect your ego, but you are extremely pissed, sorry bout that, but Phil Robertson's heart wasn't in it. And he decided he didn't want to play for money. There are guys who did decide to play for money, and some languish around the NFL, some ruin their careers with off the field garbage, etc.

    That is a lack of character on the latter.

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