But really, What is the major malfunction?

[Orion]

SOMEBODY knows!  SOMEBODY in the Berea complex knows!

I doubt that it's all on Zeitler and Duke being traded.

Is it the plays?  Who's playbook are we using?  Freddie's?  Monken's?  A mixture?  Do we need to bring back the modified Todd Haley playbook of the latter half of last season?  We've got the same guy CALLING the plays.

We've added OBJ.  He was supposed to make Callaway & Higgins much more productive.  They're not.  Higgins can't even see the field because Freddie hates him so much.  WTF did he do.  He's not talkin'.  Baker is NOT the same as last year.  It seems like he's in a universe that is quite different than from whence he came.  

-  I'm not even talking about the defense.  We no longer have Peppers playing goalie while everyone else is on the other side of the 50....

Everybody always wants to blame the play caller.  Bruce Ariens was blamed for our offensive problems years ago.  But he proved it wasn't his fault.

I think it's the plays themselves.  (although I wouldn't bet my vette on it)   I bet if we went back to that simplified Haley playbook of last year we'd do better.   But it also could be the defenses that we've faced so far (it doesn't get any easier this week against the Bills).

Of course, everyone and their brother, the media, including the weather man, wants Freddie fired.  But those same people wanted Bill Belleyache fired too.

Now, if I'm right, and it's the plays themselves, their design.....then Freddie will have to be fired because he's not relinquishing his playbook and not giving up the play calling.  And I don't think he's regarded as the best game time decision manager at this point in time.

I heard Freddie defend why Hilliard was in the backfield on 4th and 1 instead of Chubb.  He said that Hilliard was their 3rd down back and that perhaps they might honor the pass instead of just keying the QB sneak.  But I think with 67 checking in as an eligible receiver and a tightly stacked line, Hilliard wasn't gonna get it and that it was a QB sneak, whereas with Chubb being back there then the QB sneak might have come into question....and that Chubb may be getting it so, keep your head up for that instead of just hitting the LOS.

I dunno.  I'm surprised that at this point in the season we're not good enough to win.

I didn't drink the cool-aide.  I didn't think that the kid who snuck onto the roster and returned a punt for a TD in preseason would make the team, and I didn't think that we would be winning the super bowl.  I had us at 9-7......racking up wins in the latter half of the season.  I suppose that could still happen.....but I'm not feeling it any more.

I'm sooooooo confused........(and disappointed....disappointed for me, the rest of us fans, and for the players).  

 

[nickers]

The Haslams... Theyre stupid..

[CoachToad]

I am beginning to think they are cursed.

[PoeticG]

We lost Kirksey early. We lost Njoku real early. We lost Higgings. We've been screwed by referees. We've been without Hunt for 8 weeks. We've had issues on the Offensive Line. We were without our top 2 corners for a long time. We've had questionable coaching decisions. Bad plays and dropped passes... but not even just dropped passes but how many of these tipped or dropped passes have went right into the hands of a waiting defender. We have been 6 inches to slow or too fast... We've gotta zero in and execute. We need our guys to rise up and be leaders. WE NEED TO FINISH.

[D Bone]

1 hour ago, PoeticG said:

We lost Kirksey early. We lost Njoku real early. We lost Higgings. We've been screwed by referees. We've been without Hunt for 8 weeks. We've had issues on the Offensive Line. We were without our top 2 corners for a long time. We've had questionable coaching decisions. Bad plays and dropped passes... but not even just dropped passes but how many of these tipped or dropped passes have went right into the hands of a waiting defender. We have been 6 inches to slow or too fast... We've gotta zero in and execute. We need our guys to rise up and be leaders. WE NEED TO FINISH.

In other words, they're simply not good enough to win........... got it. 

[BrownPile]

Is it really THAT much of a surprise?

Change your coaching staff.  Second year (and still unproven) QB, different O-line, some new receivers...  Suspect LBs and secondary...  To buy the Kool-Aid that we were sold all summer and from the Vegas odds-makers... 

This was an 8-8 team from the start, in the first year of - yet another - rebuild, but with the team talent skipped a year to the second year of - yet another - rebuild.   The schedule killed them, as you can NEVER evaluate a rebuilding team before the first half of the season - when they're still learning to play with each other.  We were sold the idea that we FINALLY had the MESSIAH!  The QB to save the NFL.  We would score TDs on EVERY possession.

It bothers me more that there still isn't any discipline on this team after 8 games, as the unnecessary penalties are killing them.

And I'm more concerned with the defense, because you just don't win in this league without it.  The D-line is geared towards pass rush/sacks and isn't stopping the run.  The LBs and secondary are awful at times.  No one knows how to tackle - just hit (although that isn't THAT surprising , since that's what they're coached to do)  Defense wins championships... and we don't have a championship caliber defense yet.

After Buffalo, the schedule favors them.  8-8.  Just like they should have been from the beginning.

[flyingfooldoug]

I think Jimmy Dee just likes picking high in the draft. We are already at number 7. Right now it’s looking like a top 5 pick again. 

[Orion]

8 hours ago, nickers said:

The Haslams... Theyre stupid..

...AND, they're fashion experts.  Can't wait to see the new polka-dots uniforms.

[LBC mike]

orange polka dots with tasles.

[7moses7]

The QB coach was calling the plays last year after Haley was canned . Fat Freddy took credit for it. The QB coach wasn’t retained.

[SdBacker80]

Well everyone almost everyone was convinced it was the Oline.  

Our highlight of the bye week was talking about (leaked) changes along the line.  We were convinced replacing one guy at Left tackle who was stupid in week 1 and has missed some blocks throughout the year would change the dynamic.

baker has had time!!!!!

chubb has had holes to run through!!!!

we can’t put together four quarters because we aren’t smart enough, we aren’t disciplined enough and our game plans aren’t anywhere near what they should be. 

Small coaching details that should be entry level stuff are treated like upper level Physics.   

Weve had weird decisions.  Callaway comes back and he’s thrusted into lineup and essentially did more than anyone else to cough up a game.  Meanwhile WR is our deepest position.  

Weve used Hilliard at times likes he’s alvin Kamara

baker loves him some Harris - and Harris isn’t a football player.

we can’t play with all these fancy toys we have because our coach has it all sitting on the shelf.

the D is a paper tiger.  I think we are what we are there.  I remember folks singing our praises on d after the Rams game.  I saw 8-10 big plays left on the field by the Rams. Our D is overrated.

the offensive it’s like we personally handicapping ourselves and making life harder than what it needs to be. Hello coaching. 

Weve found out a lot about some personnel guys.  

Randall and Schobert aren’t top 5 at their position and don’t need to be paid at that level. Baker can be a good game manager and play well in the right scheme.  He ain’t ready to sit empty set and zing it all over the field 45 times a game.  We need to add a few pieces on the line and in the secondary.  TE position needs upgraded I’m not convinced NJoku is the guy.  This may sound like an overhaul but it’s not  

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

13 hours ago, Orion said:

Is it the plays?  Who's playbook are we using?  Freddie's?  Monken's?  A mixture?  Do we need to bring back the modified Todd Haley playbook of the latter half of last season?  We've got the same guy CALLING the plays.

Everybody always wants to blame the play caller.

Of course, everyone and their brother, the media, including the weather man, wants Freddie fired.  But those same people wanted Bill Belleyache fired too.

I believe that Baker is NOT 100% to speed with the playbook. Add that with the inconsistent O-Line AND poorly timed playcalls and you get losing football.

The Browns need to start the game as if were already losing by 2 scores.. from here on out. The defense needs a chance to play with a lead..

Freddy is a rookie coach. As easy as it is to want him fired.. would it be the right choice? What if he's learning from these losses?

[SdBacker80]

55 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

I believe that Baker is NOT 100% to speed with the playbook. Add that with the inconsistent O-Line AND poorly timed playcalls and you get losing football.

The Browns need to start the game as if were already losing by 2 scores.. from here on out. The defense needs a chance to play with a lead..

Freddy is a rookie coach. As easy as it is to want him fired.. would it be the right choice? What if he's learning from these losses?

Freddie was named HC because the organization didn’t want to upset a good thing.  His work/play calling was excellent last year with Baker.  We heard reports that the work with Baker may not have been the product of Freddie. 

To me it’s negligence bordering criminal to have Chubb/Hunt/Landry/OBJ and not have play designs at least 75% of time going to them. The other 25 percent of time I’m setting a defense up.

Freddie the playcaller even last year didn’t and still doesn’t care about touches to certain players.  We scored 28 points against Atlanta last year and Landry had 2 catches for 22 yards.  

  If that’s the case we need to marry this philosophy with our personnel department.  You don’t need OBJ and Landry taking up a lot of cap space.   Build a strong line add a couple decent weapons that don’t break the bank.  And then Spend your money on defense. 

The last thing I want to see is change at the top and then a dismantle job of the roster.  We can win with this personnel. 

[jrb12711]

Coaching, plain and simple. I'm 1000% sure we'd be around .500 if we had a coach who knew what he was doing.

As I noted in the other thread, Freddie had the classic "deer in the headlight" look after the failed challenge on the Baker sneak. You could see the face of a man who knew this was above his pay grade. I think if Freddie could have worked with a less talented roster he may have "grown" with the team, but this is built to win and should be. I could write a novel but the decisions Kitchens is making from offensive play design at critical times to using timeouts wrong is just, well awful. There's no reason to change things up until after the season, but he's a man completely out of his element. 

I've said it before, but you can see the talent of this squad trying to poke its head through. I don't have prime examples, but you just view it from the screen. Then on a critical 3rd and 1 late in the game Freddie calls an off tackle run that hasn't worked all game. We have momentum and then Freddie can't call the play in time, we use a timeout. The head of the snake is cut off for this team and it's painfully obvious.

[bjh2130]

According to nextgen stats Baker has far and away the worst qb rating in the league when throwing from a clean pocket.

[bjh2130]

I heard this on the radio and don't know how true it is but they had somewhat of an explanation for Baker's regression. Obviously last year they dumbed down the playbook for him (as they do with pretty much every rookie), but it was count the numbers if such and such happens throw the ball to this specific spot then its the receivers job to be at that spot. This year he is supposed to read what the wide receiver is doing and throw to the man which is causing him to think more and second guess himself (he is pumping and patting the ball a ton more this year). It is said they made this change because their receivers are extremely more talented this year.  Again I don't know if it's true but if it is over the bye week why didn't we go back to throwing the ball to spots and not being so reliant on wide receivers.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

1 hour ago, bjh2130 said:

According to nextgen stats Baker has far and away the worst qb rating in the league when throwing from a clean pocket.

Young QB, new playbook, inconsistent OLine. Safe to say Baker is seeing ghosts this year...

Good news is, there is still time to turn it around..

Also, even ESPN gave OBJ credit for not losing his mind right now. So that is another positive.

 

[DieHardBrownsFan]

18 hours ago, Orion said:

SOMEBODY knows!  SOMEBODY in the Berea complex knows!

I doubt that it's all on Zeitler and Duke being traded.

Is it the plays?  Who's playbook are we using?  Freddie's?  Monken's?  A mixture?  Do we need to bring back the modified Todd Haley playbook of the latter half of last season?  We've got the same guy CALLING the plays.

We've added OBJ.  He was supposed to make Callaway & Higgins much more productive.  They're not.  Higgins can't even see the field because Freddie hates him so much.  WTF did he do.  He's not talkin'.  Baker is NOT the same as last year.  It seems like he's in a universe that is quite different than from whence he came.  

-  I'm not even talking about the defense.  We no longer have Peppers playing goalie while everyone else is on the other side of the 50....

Everybody always wants to blame the play caller.  Bruce Ariens was blamed for our offensive problems years ago.  But he proved it wasn't his fault.

I think it's the plays themselves.  (although I wouldn't bet my vette on it)   I bet if we went back to that simplified Haley playbook of last year we'd do better.   But it also could be the defenses that we've faced so far (it doesn't get any easier this week against the Bills).

Of course, everyone and their brother, the media, including the weather man, wants Freddie fired.  But those same people wanted Bill Belleyache fired too.

Now, if I'm right, and it's the plays themselves, their design.....then Freddie will have to be fired because he's not relinquishing his playbook and not giving up the play calling.  And I don't think he's regarded as the best game time decision manager at this point in time.

I heard Freddie defend why Hilliard was in the backfield on 4th and 1 instead of Chubb.  He said that Hilliard was their 3rd down back and that perhaps they might honor the pass instead of just keying the QB sneak.  But I think with 67 checking in as an eligible receiver and a tightly stacked line, Hilliard wasn't gonna get it and that it was a QB sneak, whereas with Chubb being back there then the QB sneak might have come into question....and that Chubb may be getting it so, keep your head up for that instead of just hitting the LOS.

I dunno.  I'm surprised that at this point in the season we're not good enough to win.

I didn't drink the cool-aide.  I didn't think that the kid who snuck onto the roster and returned a punt for a TD in preseason would make the team, and I didn't think that we would be winning the super bowl.  I had us at 9-7......racking up wins in the latter half of the season.  I suppose that could still happen.....but I'm not feeling it any more.

I'm sooooooo confused........(and disappointed....disappointed for me, the rest of us fans, and for the players).  

 

We're cursed.  

[jiggins7919]

19 hours ago, Orion said:

I'm sooooooo confused........(and disappointed....disappointed for me, the rest of us fans, and for the players).  

I could have basically written this entire post. It mirrors my total thought process and I guess the simple answer is, "Nobody has any freaking clue wtf to do." 

It's a mix of several things, like you mentioned. For one, Baker has confidence issues. The fact that we don't throw it down the field hardly EVER is proof of this. I've said it before and I'll mention it again. Baker threw ONE pass over 20 yards in the last game. The scary thing about that is we have deep routes on virtually every pass route, so if you aren't stretching the field for weeks at a time, and it's also a superb mind screw to the receivers. Have you ever thought of that? Do you know how disheartening it is to run your ass off down the field ALL game and NEVER get a chance to make a play? 

I'm gonna tell you something else. Many people are pissed off about Baker missing OBJ on the last 4th down play, and I was one of them. However, Baker made the correct read to Landry but he made it too LATE. Landry was briefly open and it would have been an easy throw, but Baker didn't throw it on time for whatever reason. It's hard to nail down, but it's almost like whatever can go wrong DOES go wrong. I mean, Jesus...look at the 4th down Baker sneak. The refs ALWAYS give the QB that spot. Almost always! If you watched the play and then watched the far sideline ref, that asshole runs BACKWARDS after Baker got enough for the first. I can't explain it. The ref was beyond the line to gain, but ran backwards after Baker was down. I've never seen it before in my life. But that's my point...whatever CAN go wrong...goes wrong. 

And something else...where the eff are our stars at? Denzel Ward is in perfect position to make a play on the ball and doesn't do an EFFING THING to prevent Sutton from catching it. Ward literally waits for the ball to come to him and doesn't even get his body in position to deflect the ball. What in the actual FREAK Denzel? Where the heck was Myles Garrett? 

Check out the link to an article showing Baker patting the ball per usual and not delivering it to Landry on time. He had TWO PEOPLE OPEN, never mind going deep to OBJ. He was late, he didn't trust himself, and that's not something you get back midway during the year. 

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/the-cleveland-browns-and-possible-answers-to-their-5-most-important-long-term-issues.html

[jcam222]

Two things 1) Freddie is not a head coach 2) Baker has something going on none of us know. I am absolutely convinced of that. He complet regression from record breaker to practice squad QB is not just coaching. 

[Orion]

3 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

people are pissed off about Baker missing OBJ on the last 4th down play, and I was one of them. However, Baker made the correct read to Landry but he made it too LATE. Landry was briefly open and it would have been an easy throw

I have been noticing that this year.   During replays sometimes you can see that his man was open, he sees but hesitates, then throws it too late and it's defended or is delivered behind the receiver because he can't lead him into the defender who is NOW 'in play' whereas he wouldn't have been if he threw it on time.  It's like, THIS YEAR, the game is just a little too fast for him.

[jiggins7919]

14 minutes ago, jcam222 said:

Two things 1) Freddie is not a head coach 2) Baker has something going on none of us know. I am absolutely convinced of that. He complet regression from record breaker to practice squad QB is not just coaching. 

Unfortunately I think you're right on both fronts. Freddie is really starting to get lit up publicly for his personnel decisions and his lack of knowing wtf to do during games. On one of our used timeouts, he didn't get the play in on time because he was yelling at the ref. That's despicable and bullshit. He's the idiot who decided he was calling the plays and he's GOT to understand the importance of timeouts. 

And one more thing. Mother eff our defense. Those assholes haven't gotten a clutch stop since the dawn of time. Actually, they got ONE during the Rams game, but naturally our offense shit the sheets. Well, more like Freddie. Ugh... 

[Canton Mike]

9 minutes ago, Orion said:

I have been noticing that this year.   During replays sometimes you can see that his man was open, he sees but hesitates, then throws it too late and it's defended or is delivered behind the receiver because he can't lead him into the defender who is NOW 'in play' whereas he wouldn't have been if he threw it on time.  It's like, THIS YEAR, the game is just a little too fast for him.

Yeah, his touch is not there because he's not throwing with anticipation as he did so well last year & he's throwing it so hard (my guess) because he KNOWS he's late with the throw. It's obvious he's not comfortable and, mechanically, he's not the same.....I've said it before & I'll say it again...I wouldn't be surprised to learn he's playing hurt. We'll see.

Mike

[Furious Styles]

Opposing Defenses seem to be especially motivated against the Browns. I attribute "some" of that to the personalities of Baker Mayfield and OBJ. Those are the types of players Defenders salivate about laying a GOOD STICK on !

[BrownPile]

Many have commented on Mayfield's "regression" this year.  It's a little comical to talk about regression for a second-year QB, I think.

Last year he threw into double coverage a lot... a LOT... and got away with it.  

This year he's trying to do the same - throw into double and triple coverage and rely on the strength of his arm to get the ball there... and is throwing more interceptions as a result because teams have better preparation for him.  He hasn't developed a finesse pass, yet.  Just throw it hard.  Understandable.  He's only in his second year.

So, now he's gun shy.  Doesn't want to throw interceptions, so he's late... or second guesses himself... or - worst of all - tries to throw even harder.  Classic sophomore season.

Did you REALLY expect anything else?  If so, then just review the overwhelming history of QBs who started playing right out of college... it's not pretty.  And it goes to show that this RARELY works.  You can't expect instant gratification.  It just doesn't work that way.  Never did.  Still doesn't, despite the expectations of teams and fans.

As an end note, I would point out that there is history on his side in the form of other hard-throwing QBs who struggled in their first few seasons until they learned the game.  John Elway comes to mind.  We can talk Mayfield in 2022 and we'll see what we're saying then.

 

[Canton Mike]

3 hours ago, BrownPile said:

Many have commented on Mayfield's "regression" this year.  It's a little comical to talk about regression for a second-year QB, I think.

Last year he threw into double coverage a lot... a LOT... and got away with it.  

This year he's trying to do the same - throw into double and triple coverage and rely on the strength of his arm to get the ball there... and is throwing more interceptions as a result because teams have better preparation for him.  He hasn't developed a finesse pass, yet.  Just throw it hard.  Understandable.  He's only in his second year.

So, now he's gun shy.  Doesn't want to throw interceptions, so he's late... or second guesses himself... or - worst of all - tries to throw even harder.  Classic sophomore season.

Did you REALLY expect anything else?  If so, then just review the overwhelming history of QBs who started playing right out of college... it's not pretty.  And it goes to show that this RARELY works.  You can't expect instant gratification.  It just doesn't work that way.  Never did.  Still doesn't, despite the expectations of teams and fans.

As an end note, I would point out that there is history on his side in the form of other hard-throwing QBs who struggled in their first few seasons until they learned the game.  John Elway comes to mind.  We can talk Mayfield in 2022 and we'll see what we're saying then.

 

You make some good points & I agree with most. Baker DID show outstanding anticipation & touch late last year & I think he's smart & determined enough that he will study "then" & learn from "now". There was a time when rookie QBs seldom saw the field for 2 or 3 years. We need some patience..Baker (IMHO) will be fine.

Mike

[Dutch Oven]

13 hours ago, DieHardBrownsFan said:

We're cursed.  

I thought you stormed off and quit this board? 

[gumby73]

 "I'll have to watch the film"  https://cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/the-browns-on-3rd-and-4th-down-how-theyre-tipping-off-opponents-and-why-obj-isnt-getting-the-ball-more-film-review.html        

[jiggins7919]

11 hours ago, Orion said:

I have been noticing that this year.   During replays sometimes you can see that his man was open, he sees but hesitates, then throws it too late and it's defended or is delivered behind the receiver because he can't lead him into the defender who is NOW 'in play' whereas he wouldn't have been if he threw it on time.  It's like, THIS YEAR, the game is just a little too fast for him.

Check out this article explaining our 3rd and 4th downs.  I'm actually going to post it as its own thread because I think it's that important and many people will be shocked when they read it.  The article is very well done and incorporates several videos to illustrate its points.  The play we're discussing on that 4th down is super awful for a few reasons.  First, like we said, Baker was late to Landry.  Secondly, Harris HAD to run the wrong route or our offensive coaches are MORONS.  You never want to have two receivers occupying the same part of the field like that!  Had Harris gone vertical or to the outside, he would've taken his defender with him.  

 

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/11/the-browns-on-3rd-and-4th-down-how-theyre-tipping-off-opponents-and-why-obj-isnt-getting-the-ball-more-film-review.html

 

[Zombo]

On 11/4/2019 at 11:06 PM, Orion said:

SOMEBODY knows!  SOMEBODY in the Berea complex knows!

I doubt that it's all on Zeitler and Duke being traded.

Is it the plays?  Who's playbook are we using?  Freddie's?  Monken's?  A mixture?  Do we need to bring back the modified Todd Haley playbook of the latter half of last season?  We've got the same guy CALLING the plays.

We've added OBJ.  He was supposed to make Callaway & Higgins much more productive.  They're not.  Higgins can't even see the field because Freddie hates him so much.  WTF did he do.  He's not talkin'.  Baker is NOT the same as last year.  It seems like he's in a universe that is quite different than from whence he came.  

-  I'm not even talking about the defense.  We no longer have Peppers playing goalie while everyone else is on the other side of the 50....

Everybody always wants to blame the play caller.  Bruce Ariens was blamed for our offensive problems years ago.  But he proved it wasn't his fault.

I think it's the plays themselves.  (although I wouldn't bet my vette on it)   I bet if we went back to that simplified Haley playbook of last year we'd do better.   But it also could be the defenses that we've faced so far (it doesn't get any easier this week against the Bills).

Of course, everyone and their brother, the media, including the weather man, wants Freddie fired.  But those same people wanted Bill Belleyache fired too.

Now, if I'm right, and it's the plays themselves, their design.....then Freddie will have to be fired because he's not relinquishing his playbook and not giving up the play calling.  And I don't think he's regarded as the best game time decision manager at this point in time.

I heard Freddie defend why Hilliard was in the backfield on 4th and 1 instead of Chubb.  He said that Hilliard was their 3rd down back and that perhaps they might honor the pass instead of just keying the QB sneak.  But I think with 67 checking in as an eligible receiver and a tightly stacked line, Hilliard wasn't gonna get it and that it was a QB sneak, whereas with Chubb being back there then the QB sneak might have come into question....and that Chubb may be getting it so, keep your head up for that instead of just hitting the LOS.

I dunno.  I'm surprised that at this point in the season we're not good enough to win.

I didn't drink the cool-aide.  I didn't think that the kid who snuck onto the roster and returned a punt for a TD in preseason would make the team, and I didn't think that we would be winning the super bowl.  I had us at 9-7......racking up wins in the latter half of the season.  I suppose that could still happen.....but I'm not feeling it any more.

I'm sooooooo confused........(and disappointed....disappointed for me, the rest of us fans, and for the players).  

 

First and foremost... it's Baker. Our defense isnt great, but it would be good enough if we were scoring like the second half of last year. Our quarterback play is near the bottom of the league and that is how you lose.

So how do you make him more effective? Hunt will help. If Nojoku comes back that will help. Those guys can catch the short routes and free up Landry and OBJ downfield.

The Higgins thing is a mystery to me too. Why isnt he playing? I smell Dorsey on that one. But Baker likes him, so play him.

Then there are Baker's blockers. We've got two starters on a healthy offensive line that are two of the worst at their position in the league... RG and LT. That's on Dorsey. But Joe Thomas and Kevin Zeitler aren't walking through that door, so we have to scheme better to protect our weaknesses and give Baker a chance to get his mojo back.

Z