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Icecube

1 theory on why Baker is struggling

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I got a buddy who said Baker always drops back and rolls to his right, and Ds know this and just react accordingly and that is why Baker has digressed so much.

 

1.) Is this true?

2.) Should the Browns work on changing this obvious tendency to get better?

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 It's so much more than those two things. For one, Baker is absolutely missing receivers and not recognizing single coverage or favorable match ups. Watch our last 4 snaps against Rams, and watch how Jarvis and OBJ don't get the ball when they're open. Baker was king of this last year, and now he's pre-determining where to throw the ball, he's not stepping up to throw in the pocket, and he's not even trying to throw deep. He has no trust in himself, and I guess he won't trust himself until he stops throwing high. 

I am NOT hating on the kid, I'm not bashing anyone. I'm just saying Baker is somehow a shell of his rookie self, and I can't begin to understand why. 

Edit:  God I hate sounding like this, but I am so sick and tired of our podcast hosts making excuses for Baker and perpetually saying that he's very close and he's making progress. "The offense is about to click!" JUST ENOUGH ALREADY. Dang man, listening to these guys makes me think we're about to win the freaking Super Bowl. They keep saying how our receivers are new, Baker doesn't have Duke Johnson, Kevin Zeitler is missed, and whatever other excuses they can concoct. Let me tell you something, there's not a single excuse  in the world for a QB to continuously miss receivers open in the end zone. None. There's no excuse for Baker to have such a low percentage of completion or have the lowest 3rd down success rate. None. 

Do you know WHY Baker only wants to throw the jump ball to Demetrius Harris or why he runs right and just tosses it up in the air in red zone? Because he doesn't trust his ability to fire the ball into windows, ESPECIALLY in the middle of the field. Baker used to RULE the middle, now he's terrified. I have no clue how to fix it, or what's scarier, IF it CAN be fixed. God I certainly hope so, man. Because I'm not totally sure people are recognizing just how poorly Baker is playing. We're not talking about a missed throw here and there, we're talking about a complete regression of ability, and what's worse, confidence. 

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Every QB favors rolling to his throwing hand's side.

 

Steve Young on NFL Live said today Baker's head is too full of an off-season worth of playbook study. That this is the reason for many QBs' legendary sophomore slumps. Steve said he went through it.

The first year is full of ignorant bliss. QBs go thru it not knowing what they don't know, so they play fast and loose. Second year? They know what they did not know...

I subscribe to this theory and posted as much earlier this week.

 

Steve added that it did not help to engage with "television personalities"... that they are simply unnecessary distractions. As I posted elsewhere I do not subscribe to this. I think it would hurt Baker more if he "stifled".

 

Wendy Nix teased that this Sunday Rex will reply to Baker's reply.

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There are MANY reasons for Baker's current struggles:

New Playbook, new coaches.

New WR toy...OBJ....but virtually NO playing time with him in the preseason.  New TE's.  Ratley...he's new because nobody's really played with him before...he's always been on IR.

Offensive line turmoil - starters have played one quarter of football together.  MAYBE, all five guys will play together this week.

Njoku is gone and Higgins has missed most of the season.  I think Baker really misses those two.  He has great chemistry with Higgins...probably because he's worked with him since the day he arrived as the #3 QB.

We have been playing some PRETTY GOOD defenses!  And another one coming up.

-------- Now,  jiggins  doesn't want to hear these excuses.  And jiggins is right that he HAS just plain missed some open receivers and has made less than accurate passes.  But those 'excuses' listed above DO play into the situation.  When trust in the OL wanes then a QB will sense that it's time to move, sometimes before he actually has to, which limits his going through his progressions.

It's going to take a little time for this group of offensive players to become a team.  

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Edit: what that guy said ^^

Last year Baker was running to the left a lot more than normal. Which I thought was strange obviously because he’s right handed. 

I think it’s the new playbook/new star receiver.. with Callaway, Higgins, Njoku out and an injured O-Line. Hopefully D.Harris can step up as a valid receiving option. 

 

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EDIT: what the first two guys said ^^

  Calloway stretched the field like crazy. The offense misses him like crazy, misses Higgins like crazy.

They had great chemistry with Baker. That leaves OBJ and Landry, who are going to be double-covered a lot of the time.

I expect Ratley to show up big in the ratbird game. He can stretch the field, 6-2, 200 lbs... and he has the hands.

   Were it not for the injuries and Calloway's suspension, I think this offense would be taking off this season where it left off.

But it's hindered. Kitchens and co. will find ways to un-hinder it.

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8 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

  Calloway stretched the field like crazy. The offense misses him like crazy, misses Higgins like crazy.

it's the 2 guys Baker can throw open or put the ball on a spot that he can count on them to get there..adding those 2 would add a clutch to a motor..can't wait👀 

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14 hours ago, jiggins7919 said:

 It's so much more than those two things. For one, Baker is absolutely missing receivers and not recognizing single coverage or favorable match ups. Watch our last 4 snaps against Rams, and watch how Jarvis and OBJ don't get the ball when they're open. Baker was king of this last year, and now he's pre-determining where to throw the ball, he's not stepping up to throw in the pocket, and he's not even trying to throw deep. He has no trust in himself, and I guess he won't trust himself until he stops throwing high. 

The all 22 shows more reasons why Baker should have just ate the football..at my count, it shows, Yes.. 3 balls. Baker would want throw back.Donald vs OL allowed Bake to step up only twice. And Bake did on both throws to completions..The last 4 snaps were on Freddie's play card..These throws are not as bad as some are making it out to be..Bake still broke some tight windows....

   get a Cab & pick-up Higgy too!!    

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29 minutes ago, gumby73 said:

Baker would want throw back.

And I'm really not trying to be some malcontent ass clown, I promise. But like you said, he had 3 throws he'd like to have back. 3 out of 4 with the freaking game on the line? And the absolute worst part is that he didn't even try to throw to his best weapon, who was open. 

Those 3 throws are a microcosm of Baker's season so far. Not seeing the open man, not anticipating routes, and simply panicking so often. I'm not entirely sure people understand how many open receivers Baker has missed this season, especially on 3rd down. Let's also be fair to the kid, every single QB misses receivers, everyone gets flustered, and all QBs have a run of bad games. Like others have said, we've also played good defenses, Baker has been without 2 favorite targets, and even though our defense has been borderline SPECTACULAR, they could have done MORE to help a struggling young QB. How you say? Simple. We could have scored a defensive touchdown instead of tripping over our own guy. For whatever reason, our defense is genetically predisposed to crap on themselves during a turnover. We literally CANNOT score once we have the turnover. 

Anyway, back to Baker. I don't have the stat on hand, but I know Baker has been deplorable against pressure. Guess what Baltimore is going to bring tomorrow? They might not have the defense of old, but their line is amazing and they're going to be all over Mayfield. And I swear to God if we run that tired ass screen play to Chubb 20 more times tomorrow, I'll lose my mind. Where's the creativity? I was absolutely SCREAMING QB draw last week, but NOPE. That play has worked against us for 20 years, but lord knows we won't run it. 

I sure hope we win tomorrow, but I just finished watching Baltimore highlights from their games and I'm not feeling very good. They are downright terrifying, and their only weakness is against the big play, but unfortunately we seem immune to making those. Sure would be nice to back on track tomorrow, because if we do, it's going to be fun times in Cleveland, if we stink it up and especially if Baker still looks lost, the season will begin to turn toxic and we'll have a miserable, long, frustrating year. 

Cmon Brownies, put a complete game together. I'm a little concerned our defense isn't quite as good as shown, but if it really is, we might have a chance. Sure doesn't feel like it, though. Lol

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15 hours ago, Icecube said:

I got a buddy who said Baker always drops back and rolls to his right, and Ds know this and just react accordingly and that is why Baker has digressed so much.

 

1.) Is this true?

2.) Should the Browns work on changing this obvious tendency to get better?

Interesting.  Bad habits are unfolding and being repeated.  And when you shrink the field to a 3rd where there's more DBs than Receivers in the area - you get easier to stop or intercept. Baker has 3 TD passes to 5 INTs today.  All young QBs need coaching IMO.  Maybe Zampese did a better job with Baker as his QB Coach than those that let him go were willing to admit. Continuity is also important in this thing.  I've seen it typed Zampese sucked as an OC in Cincy which is prolly true.  That said, Cincy was 12-4 with Hue as their OC which didn't prevent him from being a horrible HC and OC here. I think Zampese also helped Freddie design some new plays/wrinkles that Freddie got all the credit for like our former offensive line coach mentioned after the door hit him in the asss on the way out.

Every time I hear someone say Baker reminds them of Brett Favre - I'd much rather have Baker reminding them more of Drew Brees.  Mostly from the mastery of mechanics.  If we remember Brees' humbled beginnings - SD finished with the worst record in football during Brees' 3rd NFL season.  That led to them drafting Eli 1st who already told SD he wouldn't play there.  Consequently they had to end up trading Eli to the NY Giants to draft Philip Rivers at #4 overall. Rivers held out the length of training camp and Drew Brees got to swing at 4th pitch/season ending in Pro Bowl and 12-4 record.  Brees was not immediate but the length of his career and excellence speaks for itself. 

Now I'm starting to see Baker throw off a backward hop into traffic after locking onto the target.  It didn't get the same Favre-like no risk no reward result.  Then again, Favre didn't always get away with that as his volume of INTs throughout his career remind me.  The first 2-3 years of Favre's career in GB they called him wild thing because he took risks and threw a lot of TD passes in spite of outrageous mechanics and decisions (that also prevented a great TD:INT ratio). 

There's still 13 weeks left so lets see what happens...

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48 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

And the absolute worst part is that he didn't even try to throw to his best weapon, who was open. 

Those 3 throws are a microcosm of Baker's season so far. Not seeing the open man, not anticipating routes, and simply panicking so often. I'm not entirely sure people understand how many open receivers Baker has missed this season, especially on 3rd down. Let's also be fair to the kid, every single QB misses receivers, everyone gets flustered, and all QBs have a run of bad games. Simple. We could have scored a defensive touchdown instead of tripping over our own guy. For whatever reason, our defense is genetically predisposed to crap on themselves during a turnover. We literally CANNOT score once we have the turnover.  Your letting after game video clips affect your opinion. It's what fans do after..& included in most your post.(we recovered the miss exchange Bake/Chubb) Obj was Doubled all game & down there, was not his first read for same reason. Even the best QB's can't count on defender going down..Turnovers..We have scored off turnovers..The Ravens have gotten 2 picks & 1 fumble.Browns have a pair of both..We rank only 21st cuz the Ravens have not turned ball over not even once..stay tuned

Anyway, back to Baker. I don't have the stat on hand, but I know Baker has been deplorable against pressure. Guess what Baltimore is going to bring tomorrow? They might not have the defense of old, but their line is amazing and they're going to be all over Mayfield. (Ravens fans/media would disagree but with this OL? ok) And I swear to God if we run that tired ass screen play to Chubb 20 more times tomorrow, I'll lose my mind. Where's the creativity? I was absolutely SCREAMING QB draw last week, but NOPE. That play has worked against us for 20 years, but lord knows we won't run it. All 22 shows a OL mess setting up screens..unless your back can't wait on blocks👀 already setting up down field missing them..QB Draws with Rams front? with Baker this early? I'll pass..

I sure hope we win tomorrow, but I just finished watching Baltimore highlights from their games and I'm not feeling very good. They are downright terrifying, and their only weakness is against the big play, but unfortunately we seem immune to making those. Brandon Cooks could have killed us more than just twice on reverses..stay tuned, we will see more this week.. 

 

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It's funny, if old Baker (and old offensive scheme) was playing this week against Baltimore, I'd predict us to win by a comfortable margin. I also want to throw some shade at a John Dorsey. Why do we have the most atrocious TEs on earth? Did I just see Fells catch another one for Texans? Why don't we have a blocking TE worth a shit? Why not a fullback? Are you really telling me our TEs are as good as available? I liked Devalve! He could be H-back or a receiver! 

I have a sneaky suspicion that Baker is going to be looking for Landry a ton this game. Landry has been open so many times and Baker has either missed him or just didn't see him. And the coaches HAVE to stop with the Landry deep routes. That's NOT how he caught 100 balls every year. Jesus, this shit isn't complicated. 

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Fells agains???

Oy vey...

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5 minutes ago, Tour2ma said:

Fells agains???

Oy vey...

LOL, he's gotta be a better blocker than our guys! 

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1 hour ago, gumby73 said:

QB Draws with Rams front? with Baker this early? I'll pass..

I honestly thought we were going to run a draw once we spread them out and I was so excited. Obviously we'll never know if it would have worked, but man...I was envisioning Baker busting through to score and jumping into the stands. It's difficult to stop if you're not expecting it, and I still maintain its better than most plays. But whatever, different strokes and all that. 

And OBJ wasn't doubled near as much as you say, in fact, Todd Monken was quoted this week saying the same thing. For whatever reason Baker didn't look his way or Jarvis' way, and that's something he'll have to live with. Baker even said after the game that not hitting Jarvis will haunt his dreams for a while because he inexplicably threw it to a double covered Harris. Why? Because it worked once and he was hoping it'd work again, instead of trusting himself to make the correct read. 

All this talk goes away with a win, but I'll tell you that our defense is due for a bad game. It's only normal. You can't shut down EVERYONE every week. Hopefully we save our bad game for another time, but this offense we're playing isn't normal, and the Ravens will put up big yards in a quick hurry. Hopefully Baker does the same thing, but if he's throwing high still, it's not going to be fun. 

And it's not ME killing your Browns buzz, that's the team. Time to nut up and take it to the champs...at their house. 

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16 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

I honestly thought we were going to run a draw once we spread them out and I was so excited.

Ditto...

Invite the DTs to the outside and see if they bite...

You never know unless you try.

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I’ve watched some of Arizona games. 

Man their defense might be as bad as their OLine. 

Ravens beat them by 6. 

Fins are a complete disaster. 

KC destroyed the Ravens for a half, then their defense phoned in the 4th quarter.

Fins -32nd ranked defense.

Cards- 30th

KC - 24th

If anybody believes that Baltimore’s offense which is ranked 1st in the league is really that good, let me know. I have some great stuff to sell you.

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12 minutes ago, hx214 said:

I’ve watched some of Arizona games. 

Man their defense might be as bad as their OLine. 

Ravens beat them by 6. 

Fins are a complete disaster. 

KC destroyed the Ravens for a half, then their defense phoned in the 4th quarter.

Fins -32nd ranked defense.

Cards- 30th

KC - 24th

If anybody believes that Baltimore’s offense which is ranked 1st in the league is really that good, let me know. I have some great stuff to sell you.

fuck the ravens

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OK, upon further mulling it over and reading the responses to this post..................

 

1.) Name the QBs who hit the NFL without a speed bump and had no trials and tribulations early in their career. Hmmmmmmm. Dan Marino....and................ummmmmm...to a degree Ben Roethlisberger....and.........Cam? But let's also consider, having a good rookie year but faltering soon after doesn't count as having no rough patches early. Cam and RG3 started off with a bang but both had some poor stretches soon after. In other words, Baker struggling is no worse than how Elways, Peyton Manning, Aikman, Favre, Bradshaw, and so on started off. Basically the vast majority of Hall of Famers started off sucking. 

2.) As has been established, Freddie has never attained even a coordinator position and he is now the architect of our O?  What shows you that he is even competent at structuring and assimilating an O system? I'm not trying to rip the guy, but let's look at the facts here.  Other than getting along with Baker after they fired the huge clowns (Hue and Todd) what qualification did Freddie have on his resume? Running backs coach? Not anywhere near the same thing. OC Monkens, by the way, has a pretty darn good record as an offensive coach himself. I have no idea why he isn't calling the plays; the # of head coaches who are adept at being the head coach AND calling the plays (Shanahan, Reid) is few. And since Freddie has done neither, why take on both roles? It makes no sense, and it may be such a problem that this team won't reach its potential until that is changed. 

3.) I am growing a little tired of the "let Baker be Baker, he gets fired up with trash talk, it fuels him, so he should keep doing it," talk. There is a time and place. And if the NFL has proven anything in its past, it is that no player is so powerful and skilled, that being overly cocky is wise. If you put a bullseye on your head, you will be beat the frick up, especially today. Everyone is so big, strong and fast, that if you pop off, you are going to pay. This isn't the Big 12. You can run your mouth and grab your crotch there if you are good enough. If you give these NFL beasts extra incentive to lump you up, they will. Baker has overcome every obstacle on the field in his life with cockiness and verve, but he really may want to keep a little of his fire inside instead of alway running his cake hole. I hope he doesn't learn this the hard way.

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7 hours ago, Icecube said:

Freddie has never attained even a coordinator position and he is now the architect of our O? 

Here's the thing, Freddie was largely credited with substantially turning around our offense, but more importantly our QUARTERBACK. Baker was doing OK, especially as a rookie, but he downright took OFF after Freddie took over. And when I say took over, the kid started setting records. In addition to production, Baker literally didn't get sacked or hardly TOUCHED for like 8 games. I've never seen anything like it. Our offense was innovative, creative, and unpredictable. So what's wrong NOW? 

As always, I'm glad you asked! Let me set the ground rules. This is NOT a doom and gloom post, I don't want to be known as that guy. Have I been critical? Yes, but it's not without merit. The differences this year have to do with personnel grouping. Last season Baker was at his best in "12 personnel", which is a 2 TE set. This was mostly done to protect, but also used the extra TE as a blocker for running plays. 

So what are running mostly this year? Surely we'd run 12 personnel again this year, right? The same grouping that enabled our QB to set rookie records? Wrong. We're mostly running "11 personnel", which as you know is a single TE and, 1 RB, and 1 3 WRs. We're also running many longer routes running deeper down the field, and this is a mystery as we're struggling to protect. 

Why aren't we running two TE sets this year? A lot of it has to do with our personnel. Obviously losing Njoku hurt, but TE was probably one of our weakest position groupings on the roster. For some reason, we cut or traded Devalve, Orson Charles, and Darren Fells. None of these 3 were ever going to be considered "good" but at least they knew the offense, and at least they sort of knew how to block. 

We need to sign a blocking TE, and we need to do it NOW. Pharaoh Brown is borderline worthless, and blocking TEs are easier to find than receiving ones. We have to make a move and get back to what Baker knows. 

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Take away all of the ridiculous, absurd and ludicrous off season hype and expectations, and I would think that every single person here would be absolutely stoked with a chance to get to 2-2 with a share of the division lead all while beating the ratturds in less than 24hrs.

Some of you need to stop reading, listening to and watching "sports talk" shit shows and remember that this team is still measured in months when talking about how long they are removed from being a 1-31 team.

If they put together 4 good quarters of football tomorrow, then I look forward to clicking on the several "Browns are going to the SB" threads............. 

 

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5 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Fells agains???

Oy vey...

We got a glimpse of Fells in Hard Knocks last year, and he was distinctly portrayed as an effective player and a teacher of men. It’s not too far off the mark to assume he really is that guy, which would be good for this team and particularly the TE room right now. I get his numbers may lack in his new digs, but they are new digs, and it’s not unreasonable to think he might be flourishing with us right now with the current situation we are in with TE.

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7 minutes ago, D Bone said:

Take away all of the ridiculous, absurd and ludicrous off season hype and expectations, and I would think that every single person here would be absolutely stoked with a chance to get to 2-2 with a share of the division lead all while beating the ratturds in less than 24hrs.

Some of you need to stop reading, listening to and watching "sports talk" shit shows and remember that this team is still measured in months when talking about how long they are removed from being a 1-31 team.

If they put together 4 good quarters of football tomorrow, then I look forward to clicking on the several "Browns are going to the SB" threads............. 

 

For some of us "sports talk shows" are an intrical part of the entire entertainment value of being a sports fan to begin with. Why cut out an entire piece of one of our prime sources of entertainment? Of course, if it makes your life more enjoyable to eliminate that out of your life, then you do you and stop watching and listening to such media. Personally, I love hearing debate regarding sports - especially NFL stuff. To me, there is nothing better than switching on the radio for sports talk when I'm driving, even if it's not about my team (I live near J-ville, so it's mostly Jag talk here, although national shows are also played). 

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22 minutes ago, jiggins7919 said:

Pharaoh Brown is borderline worthless

Is he worthy of such optimism?  

NE used to play Mike Vrabel as an extra TE in the red zone and short yardage situations when their TE inventory was low.  Is Bill Belichick the only coach on the planet that doesn't think it's rocket science to give someone on his defense a very doable role at TE?   

We don't have anyone with a TE frame on our defense that could fill this role or H-Back/FB?      It isn't like we're overworking Chad Thomas, Genard Avery, or Ricky Ticky Takitaki. Daniel Ekuale has a decent frame with the athleticism of a DE.   We could even put Drew Forbes out there as a 2nd TE and use him primarily as an extra blocker.  I'm sure he could learn a very short route or 2 in the process.  Again, the alternative is Pharaoh Brown...

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7 minutes ago, Flugel said:

Is he worthy of such optimism?  

LOL, I know he's pretty rough. 

But I will try to sprinkle in a bit of good news. Ricky Seal-Jones was a gigantic WR recruit, 5 star prospect, and has converted to TE. He can definitely make plays down the field, and while he wont block anyone, he's definitely a threat to catch passes, long passes too. Wouldn't surprise me if he had himself a decent day. I thought he was on his way to producing last week, as he caught a gorgeous ball early from Baker for around 15 yards, but I don't think we heard from him again. 

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1 hour ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

I don’t....😅

Oh God, I would LOVE to click on those links! 🤣

It's funny, this is the biggest game we've had in quite a while. The last game of the quarter, a chance to claim 1st place in division, and most importantly, a chance to get back on track. Seriously, can you think of two more different narratives of we win vs lose? It would literally be "going to the playoffs" vs "let's start discussing the draft". And the scary thing is...both might be RIGHT. That's how important this game is, and also why so many Browns fans were so distraught last week. 

You really can't say a loss doesn't destroy our chances (for the most part) cuz beating the Seahawks, Patriots, 49's, and the 85 Bears won't be easy. Does it literally crush us? Nah, not really, but IF we lose we MUST SCORE POINTS. The one thing that just can't happen is us crapping the bed on offense because that's going to continue the awful narratives of our coach and QB sucking and we desperately need to move beyond that. 

COME ON BROWNIES! 

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4 hours ago, Flugel said:

Is he worthy of such optimism?  

NE used to play Mike Vrabel as an extra TE in the red zone and short yardage situations when their TE inventory was low.  Is Bill Belichick the only coach on the planet that doesn't think it's rocket science to give someone on his defense a very doable role at TE?   

We don't have anyone with a TE frame on our defense that could fill this role or H-Back/FB?      It isn't like we're overworking Chad Thomas, Genard Avery, or Ricky Ticky Takitaki. Daniel Ekuale has a decent frame with the athleticism of a DE.   We could even put Drew Forbes out there as a 2nd TE and use him primarily as an extra blocker.  I'm sure he could learn a very short route or 2 in the process.  Again, the alternative is Pharaoh Brown...

IMHO, Pharaoh should be where most other Pharaohs are......buried in a desert MANY miles from Cleveland.

Mike

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