Browns LBs - key to the defense taking a giant leap forward?

[Clevfan4life]

20 minutes ago, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Collins had moments, Like the alligator arm interception attempt very late in the game against the Raiders, that made it look like he was here for the check only. 

He was the most experienced and talented LB, he just didn’t play the hardest here.

i understand parting ways with him if he was really adamant about not taking even a slight pay cut....but if the browns way undercut him than i understand. We have way too many pieces we need to pay. But too many people here were completely dismissive of him when he was let go....and i knew better. 

i hinestly think we'll be good as long as schobert and kirk stay healthy. If either one of those guys or god forbid both of them...get hurt.....we're in trouble defensively. Especially schobert....the D line seems to be in love with tge young jewish boy. Bith vernon and garrett have spoken on joe and how important tgey think he is...

[EastSideDawg]

no the LB's are not the golden key for the D.  the base D for wilks this year is going to be a 4-2-5  so the key is going to be the DB's they will have to cover well and the most important part of the 2019 browns will be the DB's ability to help in run support.

 

if they dont do a good job in run support the browns will struggle against the run ....... see the 2018 cardinals run D and shield your eyes/

 

[calfoxwc]

55 minutes ago, EastSideDawg said:

no the LB's are not the golden key for the D.  the base D for wilks this year is going to be a 4-2-5  so the key is going to be the DB's they will have to cover well and the most important part of the 2019 browns will be the DB's ability to help in run support.

if they dont do a good job in run support the browns will struggle against the run ....... see the 2018 cardinals run D and shield your eyes/

 

doesn't that depend on what offense they are facing? they would not run the 4-2-5 against some offenses, I think.

[EastSideDawg]

46 minutes ago, calfoxwc said:

doesn't that depend on what offense they are facing? they would not run the 4-2-5 against some offenses, I think.

 

no not really wilks ran 4-2-5 on 84% of snaps last year with the cardinals. this was most out of any D coordinator.

[Clevfan4life]

3 hours ago, EastSideDawg said:

no the LB's are not the golden key for the D.  the base D for wilks this year is going to be a 4-2-5  so the key is going to be the DB's they will have to cover well and the most important part of the 2019 browns will be the DB's ability to help in run support.

 

if they dont do a good job in run support the browns will struggle against the run ....... see the 2018 cardinals run D and shield your eyes/

 

to run that scheme effectively dont u need ur interior DL to be more ofvthe lsrger 2 gap variety? Like a shelton or meder type? If u run with one smaller DT than at least the other one ought to be well north of 300lbs. Otherwise OL are gonna be all over those two LB'ers regularly.

[EastSideDawg]

12 minutes ago, Clevfan4life said:

to run that scheme effectively dont u need ur interior DL to be more ofvthe lsrger 2 gap variety? Like a shelton or meder type? If u run with one smaller DT than at least the other one ought to be well north of 300lbs. Otherwise OL are gonna be all over those two LB'ers regularly.

 

not sure about that i do know the browns have been running it alot in camp so far with larry o and Richardson as the DT.  in big nickle i guess the browns would run more in running situations.

 

it would be schobert, kirko and morgan Burnett lined up in the box, whitehead and randall with 2 corners 

 

[Clevfan4life]

31 minutes ago, EastSideDawg said:

 

not sure about that i do know the browns have been running it alot in camp so far with larry o and Richardson as the DT.  in big nickle i guess the browns would run more in running situations.

 

it would be schobert, kirko and morgan Burnett lined up in the box, whitehead and randall with 2 corners 

 

I like the concept of the scheme if you have a hybrid type like Pep was. A guy that can come up and act as the 3rd LB'er or recover back into deep coverage. 

[Canton Mike]

I'm trusting this Coaching Staff & we'll just see what happens. Unlike some Fans, I am convinced they know a helluva lot more than I do! Besides, I also believe we have a helluva lot more talent than Arizona did (does).

Mike

[Tour2ma]

So a Safety filling a LB's role is not a LB???

On 7/28/2019 at 5:11 PM, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

Collins had moments, Like the alligator arm interception attempt very late in the game against the Raiders, that made it look like he was here for the check only. 

He was the most experienced and talented LB, he just didn’t play the hardest here.

Always hear this... I just never saw it aside from the two half seasons (or more) he missed due to injury... one of which was on pace for a 138 tackle season.

[gumby73]

here's a browns LB standard to look up to..  https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-to-induct-lb-clay-matthews-into-ring-of-honor   Congrats Clay Matthews!! #57 

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

21 hours ago, Tour2ma said:

Always hear this... I just never saw it aside from the two half seasons (or more) he missed due to injury... one of which was on pace for a 138 tackle season.

You saw it on the plays where he didn’t lay his body on the line to make a game changing play.

Like in the Raiders game. If he would’ve had some balls on that play, it was an game winning INT. But he knew it was coming with contact and didn’t make the play. 

[Unsympathetic]

All-in on the rookies - It's not implausible..

[Clevfan4life]

58 minutes ago, Unsympathetic said:

All-in on the rookies - It's not implausible..

huge mistake....especially running only 2 lb'ers. Next year we can talk...but those later round picks we got at lb'er will not be ready this year for full time duty.

also this 4-2-5 scheme is making me scratch me head. If ur only running 2 lb'ers isnt interior 2 gap style even more important? Maybe im wrong but it looks like wilks is wanting to run an aggressive upfield one gap line...essentislly counting on that baker will have 3 td's by the first commercial. Is that wise to do with 2 lb'ers let alone 2 later round rookies?

[Clevfan4life]

im starting to wonder if dorsey is nervous about this too since the browns are still actively trying to.pick up a DT. 

[Flugel]

On 7/29/2019 at 10:49 AM, EastSideDawg said:

no the LB's are not the golden key for the D.  the base D for wilks this year is going to be a 4-2-5  so the key is going to be the DB's they will have to cover well and the most important part of the 2019 browns will be the DB's ability to help in run support.

 

if they dont do a good job in run support the browns will struggle against the run ....... see the 2018 cardinals run D and shield your eyes/

 

I hear what you're saying; but the LBers in Wilks' Defense was very important to their success in Carolina.  The personnel at hand dictates the type of gridiron chess attack Wilks puts together.  This also includes what type of offense they have to clean up after in terms of how time of possession helps or hinders them as well as how frequently turnovers puts their backs up against the wall.  Understanding this, Wilks was in completely opposite situations in Arizona and Carolina.

When Wilks was in charge of Carolina's Superbowl Defense (w/a 15-1 regular season) - LBers Luke Kuechly and Thomas Davis both made the Pro Bowl and were named All Pro from his scheme; while only 2 other defenders made the Pro Bowl (CB Josh Norman and DT Kawann Short).  Their 1st step instinct and overall performance mattered to the success of that defense. If you don't have this from your LBers, take a look at what NE's short passing game to the RB did to the SD Chargers in the playoffs.  It rendered elite pass rushers like Joey Bosa and Melvin Ingram to feeling like they were a million miles away.  While the front 4 definitely helped the LBers in Carolina - it wasn't like Luke's talent got jumper cabled for the 1st time from it. He was a 1st round pick from his eyes, instincts and sound fundamentals. 

Speaking of the help from time of possession that gave their D fresh legs - the following offensive players made the Pro Bowl: C Ryan Kalil, OG Trai Turner, FB Mike Tolbert, RB Jonathan Stewart, TE, Greg Olsen, and QB Cam Newton.  In comparison, Arizona was a train wreck.   Injuries and suspensions to LBers.  They had an Offensive Line that Poindexter (from the Revenge of the Nerds) could have started on.  They were 32nd ranked rushing, passing, scoring and total offense.  Their defense was 20th overall, 32nd against the run and 4th against the pass (which makes sense when they were so easy to run on), and 26th in points allowed.  Maybe Poindexter could have started on Defense too.

Relating all this to Cleveland?   Our 2 LBers from the Big 10 will be playing behind the best front 4 of their NFL careers.  That said, Schobert already has 1 Pro Bowl on his resume. This was when 1 of the Safeties (Peppers) was being lined up in Canada which not only made Schobert responsible for both inside hook zones; but it also extended his vertical boundary to the unreasonable.  The biggest challenges we've had with our LBer Corps is injuries and getting them all on the field at the same time.  Let's hope Wilks finds this defense a lot more like the one he coached in Carolina than the one he had in Arizona last year.  Our offense can play a big roll in this too with winning the time of possession battles and not turning the ball over.  We shall see...

[Clevfan4life]

i think we all agree thst as much as we like the guy...schobert has to now take over the defense or the Browns will look elsewhere next year.He got some slack cause Williams converted him from 34 olb'er.....but we've got a window now and if him and/or kirksey have vecome weak links we gotta move on. 

i wpuldnt be adverse to bringing in a FA stud mlb'er next year if schobert doesnt produce

[Icecube]

On 7/23/2019 at 12:07 PM, CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS said:

The additon of Sheldon Richardson and Vernon have the Browns D-Line in the top 5 discussion. Add that to Larry Ogunjobi. DLine is the strength, imo.

I would rank our corners and secondary above the linebackers with Ward, Mitchell, Carrie, Greedy, D. Randall, and Eric Murray. That is a LOT of talent in the secondary.

I wouldn't expect much out of the rookie LBs right away, however; they are stepping into a welcoming situation with a bolstered defense.

DL is solid. CB very decent. LBs only mediocre. But why do I get the feeling the D will be better without Williams freaking out all the time?

[Nero]

For me the key can be found in missed tackles. We get that number down and we will improve. I don't know if it was the coaching, or going for turnovers thus making players tackle in a different way. 

Only thing I know is that Peppers was the only consistent good tackler and for examplw Greedy has some question marks. 

Let's hope we have a well-rounded defense. I don't ask for a top 10 defense, I think that if the team is balanced and doesn't rely too much on either side of the ball we can have a nice season.

[Flugel]

14 hours ago, Icecube said:

DL is solid. CB very decent. LBs only mediocre. But why do I get the feeling the D will be better without Williams freaking out all the time?

DL is solid today but it was far from solid in 2018.  Garrett and Ogunjobi were very reliable and fun to watch; but that's only 50% of a man front.  The other 2 starters got rag-dolled in the running game.  When that happens upfront, while your entire LBer Corps is either injured or playing injured.

At CB, when Mitchell and Ward were injured - their backups also got injured

At LBer, we lost Kirksey (which some felt was no big deal regardless of who replaced him). We lost Schobert for a stretch of games and when he returned to play through an injured hammy - he clearly lost a step.  When he was healthy in 2017 he made the Pro Bowl.  I'm not aiming this at you Ice; but Schobert is only 26 years old so why are people in here trying to race him out of town?  The guy has already played 2 different LBer positions for 3 different Coordinators/Defenses. Now he's going to play for his 4th DC/Defense so there's going to be learning curves.  Again, the last learning curve and position change ended with a Pro Bowl honor.  That doesn't suck nearly as much as changing the defense and it's Coordinators all the time. Schobert & Kirksey have gone from Jimmy O'Neill to Ray Horton to Gregg Williams to Steve Wilks.  That'snot going to make them look like the 85 bears LBer Corps overnight.  That said, I'm hoping we experience some pay off for their experience volumes in the sense they have accumulated some film room pre-snap keys that make them play faster than wide eyed rookies. I think the bigger challenge facing our LBer Corps has been keeping healthy. 1 way to do that is bring in better talent on the defensive line, which was addressed this off-season.

[gumby73]

Burns 4-2-5 focus at scrimmage https://expo.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-2019/08/2934842ac25285/orange-and-brown-scrimmage-how-the-425-alignment-will-help-the-defense-improve.html    from same day, eyes of differant writer..to cover a TE still a work in progress https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/08/orange-brown-scrimmage-defensive-report-mack-wilson-shines-te-coverage-struggles.html   so sure, teams get better at camp with coaches hammering assignments. we now have those coaches imho..the coaching talent awaits, right there with being coachable 

[TexasAg1969]

Good article on Mack and Taki.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/mack-wilson-sione-takitaki-growing-together-as-rookies-close-friends

[calfoxwc]

and Taki is fast.... it'll be cool one day to see Wilson take the field. He is also very fast.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-dc-steve-wilks-impressed-with-performances-of-top-defensive-rookies

[TexasAg1969]

1 hour ago, calfoxwc said:

and Taki is fast.... it'll be cool one day to see Wilson take the field. He is also very fast.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-dc-steve-wilks-impressed-with-performances-of-top-defensive-rookies

And I like that they both have something to prove, Taki that he deserved such a high drafting and Wilson that he didn't deserve being passed over so long. I like that about both and they are obviously in that boat together supporting one another.👍

[Clevfan4life]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:09 AM, Flugel said:

; but Schobert is only 26 years old so why are people in here trying to race him out of town? 

I don't get it either. The kid is fast, strong and made huge strides in a very short time playing a new position. As a 34 olb'er he never had to deal with the field marshall duties a mlb'er has to. I've been pretty happy with him the last two years but this will be his 3rd year as a mlb'er...he has to show now he has full command of the field. What's encouraging is that the D line especially, has been very vocal about their feellings for him and they think he's "the one". 

[calfoxwc]

On 8/4/2019 at 8:09 AM, Flugel said:

I'm not aiming this at you Ice; but Schobert is only 26 years old so why are people in here trying to race him out of town? 

   Schobert is very, very, very smart and really instictive. But that can't always cover for not being athletic enough to make all the tackles he missed.

his draft profile makes no sense - Schobert has outworked and outplayed it with a ton of heart.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/joe-schobert?id=2555166

I don't think he'll get replaced as a starter this year, unless he gets injured, God forbid....

https://expo.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-2019/07/dca29dac381641/joe-schobert-one-skill-that-will-help-the-linebacker-return-to-the-pro-bowl-in-2019-film-room.html

[Flugel]

2 hours ago, calfoxwc said:

   Schobert is very, very, very smart and really instictive. But that can't always cover for not being athletic enough to make all the tackles he missed.

his draft profile makes no sense - Schobert has outworked and outplayed it with a ton of heart.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/joe-schobert?id=2555166

I don't think he'll get replaced as a starter this year, unless he gets injured, God forbid....

https://expo.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-2019/07/dca29dac381641/joe-schobert-one-skill-that-will-help-the-linebacker-return-to-the-pro-bowl-in-2019-film-room.html

Cal, I think those missed tackles last year might be an exception to the rule.  I'm not worried about him missing tackles when he's healthy.  When he played with 2 healthy hamstrings in 2017, he made the Pro Bowl.  Another thing about 2018 is 2 of our 4 starting defensive linemen sucked against the run all year long. That's been addressed.

I will say this, when you look at Schobert he doesn't look like an NFL LBer or an elite athlete.  I got a real kick out of the reaction he got from his former teammates at Wisconsin in this video

 

[The Gipper]

The one thing perhaps most interesting about this preseason game will be to watch Takitaki and Wilson,  along with Greedy and Redwine.  I do not believe any are listed as starters, so they should all see quite a bit of action.

[TexasAg1969]

And another article on Wilson.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/Article/Could-Browns-Rookie-Linebacker-Mack-Wilson-Play-a-Bigger-Role-Early-In-Season-134262234/

 

[calfoxwc]

well, after that game last night, it seems to me that the lb's will be the key to the defense taking a giant leap forward.

Adding TakiTaki and Wilson - the lb's played a great game. Mack Wilson? it's a great sign when other teams pass up guys and the Browns know they can be very fine players. I'd say Wilson sure looked like a first round pick.

Taki Taki started, I didn't know that Schobert was not playing due to personal reasons...

that's a tough role for Taki - to start. Seems he really did well. Still, just the first exhibition game, but already, a lot of teams are surely going to regret not drafting Greedy, Wilson and TakiTaki when they had the chance.

Greedy, btw, made a few hammering stops at the los - who the heyl said this kid wasn't much of a tackler?

Teams may have had success throwing to te's and rb's over the middle vs our lb's last couple of years... but Wilson and Taki are in town.

But they still have some learning to do before they start.

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

LBs definitely ain’t a weakness anymore.