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The Gipper

1986 Browns vs. 2019 Browns

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I was thinking that this year's Browns team reminded me a lot of the 1986  Browns, for a couple of reasons.   First, because it is coming off a 7-8-1 season...where the 1986 team was coming off an 8-8 season.  There is also the coach and QB situations.  The Browns had fired  Sam, and Marty took over, where now Kitchens takes over here.  Also some similarities in the positions.   I will list each position group, then give some comments comparing them.

QB  2019  Mayfield  #1  overall choice,  came in midway last year/rookie and sparked the team, now going into his second year.   1986  Kosar  also the equivalent of the #1 pick in the draft, came midway in 1985/rookie year and sparked the team.

Comparison....quite favorable to both  (except in height and mobility).  Same killer attitude

RBs  2019 Chubb/Duke (Hunt/Hilliard)      1986  Mack/Byner (Dickey/Fontenot)

Comparison:  1986 has the slight edge with  Byner's toughness and versatility

WRs 2019 OBJ/Landry (Callaway/Higgins)  1986  Langhorne/Slaughter (Brennan)

Comparison:  2019 should prove better/deeper

TEs   2019  Njoku, primary     1986  Ozzie Newsome

Comparison:  Ozzie is HOF.   Njoku has a long way to go to get there   Edge 1986

OL   2019  Robinson/Bitonio/Tretter/Corbett/Hubbard    1986 Farren/Larry Williams/Mike Baab/Dan Fike/Cody Risien

Comparison:  I think 1986 has the edge, because they were together longer.

DEs  2019 Garrett/Vernon      1986  Reggie Camp/Carl Hairston

Comparison:  2019 should have the big edge.  DL was the weakness on that 1986 team, imo. It is why Elway could "drive".

DTs 2019 Ogunjobi/Richardson   1986   Bob Golic           (Browns played 3-4 then...now are 4-3

Comparison:   Golic was a fire plug....but 2019 has a big edge

LBs  2019 Schobert/Kirksey/Gennard   1986   Matthews/Chip Banks/ Eddie Johnson/Griggs

Comparison:   1986 better by far I believe 

CBs 2019 Ward/Williams or Mitchell   1986  Dixon and Minniefield

Comparison:  Have to give the edge to the 1986 guys....but the feeling is that Ward/Williams could maybe give the Top Dawg and Minnie a run for their money some day.

Safeties  2019 Burnett/Randall    1986  Rockins/Wright

Comparison:  Historical edge to  1986....but let's see

Kicker  2019 Joseph or Seibert    1986  Matt Bahr

Comparison:  Matt Bahr a far more veteran, reliable kicker than both current guys....who to me are each somewhat unproven

Punter  2019 Colquitt   1986  Jeff Gossett

Comparison:  Pretty even matchup, both quite good

KR  2019 Hilliard    1986  Gerald McNeil

PR 2019 Callaway   1986  McNeil

Comparison:  IMO our current KR/PR unsettled.   The Ice Cube was slick.   Edge to him

 

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The 1986 team went 12-4.   It would be a dream if this year's team could do that. But I still think they have some catching up/proving to do.

They are not quite up to that level yet along the OL...which hopefull can prove to mesh well together as that group did;   LBs, DBs, or special teams.    Perhaps big edges for this year's team at WR, and most importantly, along the DL  will make them match up to 1986. 

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Interesting stuff maybe Kosar v2.0 maybe better?

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Well done Gipper 👍.. Interesting way of seeing things..thanks for the read..Were having the real Cleveland Browns Parade this time..🕺😎 

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Not to be a prick, but Sam was replaced by Marty in 1984, but I see the comparisons.

If we  had a pass rush in the mid 80s we would have won a Super Bowl. We have a pass rush now (I think), but no Dixon/Minnifield/Felix Wright at CB/FS.

My whole take is the Browns need to survive the first 6 games at say 4-2, stay injury free and takeoff from there. 

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6 minutes ago, Bob806 said:

Not to be a prick, but Sam was replaced by Marty in 1984, but I see the comparisons.

I know it was a year off....I was just saying that there had been a recent change of HCs.

If we  had a pass rush in the mid 80s we would have won a Super Bowl. We have a pass rush now (I think), but no Dixon/Minnifield/Felix Wright at CB/FS.

Well, I think it may be too soon to tell.  Wright was good, but I would say he was not top notch at his position as were Dix/Minnie.    I think Randall can be as good as Wright.  And the two young guns we have now:  Ward/Greedy....to paraphrase Doc Brown:  "I think we're going to see some serious shit" out of them.  It may not be this year, but in the future I can see it.

My whole take is the Browns need to survive the first 6 games at say 4-2, stay injury free and takeoff from there. 

For sure.

 

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Let's compare Mayfield vs Kosar in that time period and see what happens. Kosar was 4-6 in year 1 and then shot up to 12-4 in perhaps the most exciting year of his career and 16 starts in year 2.

You are up Mr. Mayfield.

Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS QBrec Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV
Career       126 108 53-54-1 1994 3365 59.3 23301 124 3.7 87 2.6 97 6.9 6.5 11.7 184.9 81.8 273 1660 5.95 5.55 7.5 14 16 80
9 yrs CLE     108 105 53-51-1 1853 3150 58.8 21904 116 3.7 81 2.6 97 7.0 6.5 11.8 202.8 81.6 259 1594 5.96 5.57 7.6 14 16 75
3 yrs MIA     14 2 0-2-0 105 152 69.1 987 5 3.3 6 3.9 31 6.5 5.4 9.4 70.5 81.2 12 62 5.64 4.60 7.3     3
1985 22 CLE QB 19 12 10 4-6-0 124 248 50.0 1578 8 3.2 7 2.8 68 6.4 5.7 12.7 131.5 69.3 19 121 5.46 4.88 7.1 2 2 6
1986 23 CLE QB 19 16 16 12-4-0 310 531 58.4 3854 17 3.2 10 1.9 72 7.3 7.1 12.4 240.9 83.8 39 274 6.28 6.09 6.8 4 6 13
1987* 24 CLE QB 19 12 12 8-4-0 241 389 62.0 3033 22 5.7 9 2.3 54 7.8 7.9 12.6 252.8 95.4 22 129 7.07 7.15 5.4     14
1988 25 CLE QB 19 9 9 6-3-0 156 259 60.2 1890 10 3.9 7 2.7 77 7.3 6.9 12.1 210.0 84.3 25 172 6.05 5.64 8.8 3 3 6
1989 26 CLE QB 19 16 16 9-6-1 303 513 59.1 3533 18 3.5 14 2.7 97 6.9 6.4 11.7 220.8 80.3 34 192 6.11 5.61 6.2 2 3 11
1990 27 CLE QB 19 13 13 3-10-0 230 423 54.4 2562 10 2.4 15 3.5 50 6.1 4.9 11.1 197.1 65.7 37 220 5.09 4.06 8.0 1 1 5
1991 28 CLE QB 19 16 16 6-10-0 307 494 62.1 3487 18 3.6 9 1.8 71 7.1 7.0 11.4 217.9 87.8 41 232 6.08 6.00 7.7 2 1 13
1992 29 CLE qb 19 7 7 2-5-0 103 155 66.5 1160 8 5.2 7 4.5 69 7.5 6.5 11.3 165.7 87.0 21 126 5.88 4.99 11.9     4
1993 30 2TM     11 7 3-4-0 115 201 57.2 1217 8 4.0 3 1.5 86 6.1 6.2 10.6 110.6 82.0 23 132 4.84 4.96 10.3 0 0 5
    CLE qb 19 7 6 3-3-0 79 138 57.2 807 5 3.6 3 2.2 38 5.8 5.6 10.2 115.3 77.2 21 128 4.27 4.05 13.2 0 0 3
    DAL qb 18 4 1 0-1-0 36 63 57.1 410 3 4.8 0 0.0 86 6.5 7.5 11.4 102.5 92.7 2 4 6.25 7.17 3.1     2
1994 31 MIA   19 2 0   7 12 58.3 80 1 8.3 1 8.3 22 6.7 4.6 11.4 40.0 71.5 0 0 6.67 4.58 0.0     0
1995 32 MIA qb 19 9 2 0-2-0 74 108 68.5 699 3 2.8 5 4.6 31 6.5 4.9 9.4 77.7 76.1 6 28 5.89 4.44 5.3     2
1996 33 MIA   19 3 0   24 32 75.0 208 1 3.1 0 0.0 20 6.5 7.1 8.7 69.3 102.1 6 34 4.58 5.11 15.8     1

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Didn't Mayfield have like 27 TDs in his rookie year to set the rookie record...in only a partial season:?

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8 hours ago, Bob806 said:

Not to be a prick, but Sam was replaced by Marty in 1984, but I see the comparisons.

If we  had a pass rush in the mid 80s we would have won a Super Bowl. We have a pass rush now (I think), but no Dixon/Minnifield/Felix Wright at CB/FS.

My whole take is the Browns need to survive the first 6 games at say 4-2, stay injury free and takeoff from there. 

& Some have posited if Don Rodgers hadn't OD on cocaine, it would have been enough to push the Browns over the top, even with the D-line they had.  

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6 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Didn't Mayfield have like 27 TDs in his rookie year to set the rookie record...in only a partial season:?

The stats NFL QBs are putting up now, even mediocre ones, are insane.

Mayfield is going to obliterate every passing record the Browns have, way before he turns 30. (If he stays healthy, of course)

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2 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The stats NFL QBs are putting up now, even mediocre ones, are insane.

Mayfield is going to obliterate every passing record the Browns have, way before he turns 30. (If he stays healthy, of course)

Well, he beat the record that had been set by both Peyton Manning and Russell Wilson.  In any world that is impressive.

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6 hours ago, Dutch Oven said:

The stats NFL QBs are putting up now, even mediocre ones, are insane.

Mayfield is going to obliterate every passing record the Browns have, way before he turns 30. (If he stays healthy, of course)

The thing that really surprised me was seeing Kosar's stats, in today's NFL, they'd be considered at best pretty average. 

PS, for your off season reading enjoyment- here's one guy's opinion of the top 25 QBs all time. Can't say I disagree with many.  :)  

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001035041/article/top-25-quarterbacks-of-all-time-patriots-tom-brady-leads-list

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On 7/10/2019 at 7:26 AM, Dutch Oven said:

The stats NFL QBs are putting up now, even mediocre ones, are insane.

Mayfield is going to obliterate every passing record the Browns have, way before he turns 30. (If he stays healthy, of course)

Yes welcome to the new NFL touch football passing game when it comes to QBs and WRs.

Bernie got killed compared to the quarterbacks today.

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Good comparison.

Lindy Infante came in as OC to spark the aerial attack as Kitchens is hoped to do/continue  with Mayfield.

One could say there's precedence for a second year Browns QB, with talent around him, to go out and win a dozen football games.  - Not sayin' that'll happen.  But it has happened before...... 

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On 7/9/2019 at 10:18 AM, The Gipper said:

The 1986 team went 12-4.   It would be a dream if this year's team could do that. But I still think they have some catching up/proving to do.

They are not quite up to that level yet along the OL...which hopefull can prove to mesh well together as that group did;   LBs, DBs, or special teams.    Perhaps big edges for this year's team at WR, and most importantly, along the DL  will make them match up to 1986. 

Outside of the final 2 minutes of the 1986 post season - that season was a very fond memory for me and my family.  It was the re-birth of beating Pittsburgh at least once a season, which would be REAL nice to return to in 2019.  It re-confirmed how important the running game has always been to the winning tradition of the franchise.  From the physicality of Mack and Byner to the speed of Curtis Dickey to the ability to convert 3rd downs with Herman Fontenot (47 receptions for 559 yards).   Little bit of everything to make the opponent feel like a whole lotta nothing.  Chubb showed us plenty to get excited about. What's to say Hilliard can't give us what Fontenot did if it has to come to that? 

Meatball on spaghetti, only 10 of Kosar's 531 passes were intercepted to perpetuate the favorable time of possession advantage that had us understanding the best defense is a great offense (that doesn't turn over the football).  It also allows the defense to rest and keep fresh legs when they do play less than 50% of the game as beneficiaries of the offense.  Over the years people have brought up (the 2nd year QB) Kosar only threw 17 TD passes in 86; but he was also already on his 2nd OC (my fave- Lindy Infante).  Infante took over an offense that had a RB and a FB rush for over 1000 yards apiece in 1985 with goals of keeping ball control via accurate short passes from Kosar in lieu of handing off.  We went from 76 receptions from the RB position in 85 to 122 receptions from the RBs in 86.   IMO, that was a masterful way to prevent/sting the blitz despite the reality we had a cement shoe'd QB baiting it.   Watching Kosar beat the blitz time after time to keep drives alive especially on 3rd downs featuring the 1-2 punch of undrafted RB Fontentot (47 receptions) and 4th round WR Brian Brennan (who led our WRs with 55 receptions) meant more to me than how many TD passes Bernie threw.  Those are what led to the points we needed for 12 wins in a regular season.

Today, Baker packs the same leadership cred with teammates while his performance has CPR'd excitement and enthusiasm throughout our fanbase. Meanwhile Dorsey added another pass rusher (Vernon) and talent DT (Richardson) to compliment Garrett and Ogunjobi upfront while he also drafted (CB) Greedy Williams to a couple young LBers to press people for playing time.  My guess is the better we are up front and at the back end - the challenges of playing LBer get a little bit easier.  When Williams had Peppers lining up in Toronto most of 2017 - the extended/boundary-free hook zones to the right and left of MLB (Schobert) had to leave him feeling helpless.  The ole saying robbing Peter to pay Paul - Schobert was Peter while I never did find out who Paul was in that scenario.  Anyway, we now have a collection of talent where we no longer have to look to smoke and mirrors despair that gashed this defense and victimized some positions as much as injuries.  I get the feeling we can bring a much better pass rush than our 86 team which should only help the exciting talent/depth we have at CB.  Gotta thank Dorsey for this kind of feeling about what he's building.

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This has my juices flowing comparing 2019 and 1986 plus remembering the Sipe and back to the great Jim Brown era.

GO BROWNS, forever!

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