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The Gipper

Who is your choice?

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With the passing of Bart Starr,  some reflections on who may in fact be the GOAT among QBs....at least in terms of winning.  Some statistics:

Otto Graham:   Appeared in 10 title games in 10 years in  which his record was 7-3.    Overall postseason record of 10-3.  .769 win pct.

Bart Starr.  Appeared in 6 title games in 8 years in which his record was 5-1.  Overall postseason record of  9-1.  .900 win pct.

Sid Luckman.  Appeared in 5 title games in 7 years in which his record was 4-1.  overall postseason record of  5-1   .833 win pct.

Tom Brady.  Appeared in 9 title games in 18 years in which his record is 6-3.  Overall postseason record of 30-10.  .750 win pct.

Joe Montana . Appeared in 4 title games in 9 years in which he was 4-0.  Overall postseason record of 16-7.  .696 win pct.

Terry Bradshaw. Appeared in 4 title  games in  6 years in which he was 4-0.  Overall postseason record of 14-5 .  .737 win pct.

Troy Aikman.  Appeared in 3 title games in 4 years in which he was 3-0.  Overall postseason record of 11-4.  .733 win pct.

John Unitas.  Appeared in 5 title games in 5 title games in 13 years in which he was  3-2.  Overall postseason record of 6-2. .750 win pct. 

The above are the ONLY QBs in history to have won 3 or more championship games as a starting QB.   The following names are those who have won 2 or more together with their overall postseason won-loss record

Len Dawson  5-3  .625 win pct.

Ed Danowski  2-2

Arnie Herber  2-2

Sammy Baugh  3-3

Tommy Thompson  3-1

Bobby Layne 3-1

Tobin Rote  3-1

George Blanda 2-1

Jack Kemp 2-4

Roger Staubach  11-6  .647 win pct.

Bob Griese 6-5   .545 win pct.

Jim Plunkett, 8-2  .800 win pct.

John Elway 14-7  .667 win pct.

Ben Roethlisberger  13-8 .619 win pct. 

Peyton Manning 14-13  .519 win pct.

Eli Manning.  8-4  .667 win pct. 

FYI...on these lists, the only QBs who are eligible who are not HOF are  Plunkett, Kemp, Rote, Thompson.  Brady, BR, Peyton, Eli still not eligible (only Peyton retired)

Give your impression on some of the ordering of this list.

 

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Top 5 in postseason win pct.
 

Starr .900

Luckman  .833

Plunkett  .800

Graham  .769

Brady, Unitas...tied at .750  (along with Rote, Layne, Thompson) 

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age factor..I can barely remember Starr & Johnny U playing when i was a kid..growing up, It's a dead heat tie between Starr & Johnny U..only because Johnny U (was just sick beyond stats).. He could throw guys open looking right while throwing dimes in a bucket down the left sidelines..Such good times watching Old School 🏈  

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26 minutes ago, trophyhill said:

I'll take Starr over all if the above. His numbers don't lie.....

Of course we focus on the QB often when it comes to evaluating championship performances. And sometimes we lose sight of the quality of the team around these QBs.   I guess the one guy you have to give massive kudos to is Tom Brady...who, unlike the others, he has had the entire team around him turn over their personnel at least like 3 times. If you notice, of the players in the top list, only  Brady, Unitas, and OG had a championship run that spanned 10 years or more. (Montana...9).  

So, maybe we can do this and ask if there is some consensus:

When it comes to the Mt. Passmore of QBs, I would propose that we put five heads to be sculpted on the mountain are  Graham, Unitas,  Starr, Montana, Brady. 

(I just made that up:  Mt. Passmore for QBs instead of Mt. Rushmore....and I like it)

Any issues there?

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38 minutes ago, trophyhill said:

I'll take Starr over all if the above. His numbers don't lie.....

You have to also remember the era when it comes to stats Starr and Graham were in the more running era Brady in the pass happy passing era. Also there are way more teams now so think of Starr now or Brady then who would still be the best quarterback? 

No matter what they are all "starrs". Best ever? I guess it is really personal preference, I like Starr and Montana as just winners.

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Otto Graham no matter what.

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2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

It's Tom Brady...

As the most successful Michigan QB ever? Yes he has done well in the recent era.

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It was always Joe Montana with me until the 2017 Superbowl when Tom Brady led the second half 25 point comeback win against the Falcons.  That sealed it with me for Brady.

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1 hour ago, mjp28 said:

As the most successful Michigan QB ever? Yes he has done well in the recent era.

"Well"??????

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1 hour ago, MLD Woody said:

"Well"??????

I think one point that may be made is that "if"  Luckman, Starr, Graham, Unitas played in an era where there were as many postseason games being played as there are now...they too may have accumulated maybe close as many post season victories as TB has. 

Three of those four had better title game records than TB, and  they all had better or equal overall postseason game winning percentages as TB. 

So, that may be the "well".   TB certainly has more longevity than the others...which counts.  (then the question could be asked:  would he have had the same longevity if he played in the 40s/50s/60s/70s....or would those other guys have had much longer careers had they played today? These are kind of unanswerable questions....but it is fair to ask them.

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I think an argument could easily be made that no "dynasty" QB has had less talent on offense around him as Tom Brady. 

The Patriots aren't likable, but what they've done is wicked impressive. We may never see anything like this again, or for a long time. 

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On 6/2/2019 at 12:58 AM, The Gipper said:

With the passing of Bart Starr,  some reflections on who may in fact be the GOAT among QBs....at least in terms of winning.  Some statistics:

Otto Graham:   Appeared in 10 title games in 10 years in  which his record was 7-3.    Overall postseason record of 10-3.  .769 win pct.

Is there any other QB that competed in the Championship Game every year they played (in this case all 10 years)?  I think some people look at comp % and assume the Browns carried a Trent Dilfer to all 10 Championship Games. With all the praise and overrating Joe Namath got for his ONLY Championship - multiply that by 10 appearances/7 Titles and remind me why NFL history needs to pedestal his greatness more than Otto's?   Graham and his coach was the birth place of the WCO the Joe Montanas, Steve Youngs, Brett Favres, and Patrick Mahomes would later try to emulate and advance.  That said, after Montana - how many of those QBs won more than 1 SB despite all those stats?  Before we had airports all over the country/world and an air force that could win us wars - wasn't Kitty Hawk pretty important? 

Putting this in perspective, as great as Jim Brown was - Cleveland only won 1 Championship because of  him.  I also think it was way more than a coincidence, the frequency of participation in Championship Games for the Browns decreased dramatically when Otto's 10 year career ended.

When we do this kind of comparison, you have to take into consideration rules weren't being changed to promote more passing and protection of passers.  Today, I think of Brady and BB like I think of Otto and Paul Brown. Coincidentally, Brady grew up a 49ers fan watching Bill Walsh orchestrate Paul Brown's offensive concepts through Joe Montana. 

 

 

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Dr Frank may have only won one, but cleaning Johnny Unitas’ clock in 64 put me on the bus

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2 hours ago, flyingfooldoug said:

Dr Frank may have only won one, but cleaning Johnny Unitas’ clock in 64 put me on the bus

He also got them to the Champioship game the next year...but lost to the Packers....who went on to win 3 tltles in a row.  (and that was the last time that has happened, plus it only happened once before...the Packers also from 1929/30/31 I believe.).

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On 6/2/2019 at 4:16 PM, MLD Woody said:

"Well"??????

OK?   :lol:

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On 6/2/2019 at 7:45 PM, Dutch Oven said:

I think an argument could easily be made that no "dynasty" QB has had less talent on offense around him as Tom Brady. 

The Patriots aren't likable, but what they've done is wicked impressive. We may never see anything like this again, or for a long time. 

Teammates, coaches and even things like rule changes where you cannot hit the QBs and even WRs so they can rack up big numbers and hang around longer. 

 Near  40 year old quarterbacks at one time used to be harder  to do. 

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Back when people were figuring out what a forward pass was and blacks weren't allowed

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2 hours ago, MLD Woody said:

Back when people were figuring out what a forward pass was and blacks weren't allowed

You mean like Warren Moon who played until he was 44? Oh yea.  He was black. George Blanda played until he was 48. 

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17 hours ago, mjp28 said:

Teammates, coaches and even things like rule changes where you cannot hit the QBs and even WRs so they can rack up big numbers and hang around longer. 

 Near  40 year old quarterbacks at one time used to be harder  to do. 

Definitely easier to pass now than it probably ever has been... plus players are in much better shape because of advanced knowledge on fitness, strength, diet, etc... 

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On 6/3/2019 at 10:45 AM, The Gipper said:

He also got them to the Champioship game the next year...but lost to the Packers....who went on to win 3 tltles in a row.  (and that was the last time that has happened, plus it only happened once before...the Packers also from 1929/30/31 I believe.).

Ever wonder what Frank and Bill May have been like if arthroscopic surgery was available in their day?

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