I want to believe this but....

[htownbrown]

...still a ways to go.  Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

[choco]

Ben threw for over 5000 yards, sure...but he also had far more attempts than anyone else. His efficiency numbers are average, and I don't think 13 games is enough to draw definitive conclusions. It's positive it's even a discussion tho, as baker looks the part early...which is the salient point. 👍

[The Gipper]

Here is the complete ranking...what would you change:

1. Mahomes KC

2. Rodgers  GB

3. Brady  NE

4. Brees  N.O.

5. Wilson  SEA

6. Luck  Indy

7. Rivers  LAC

8. Ryan  ATL

9. Mayfield CLE

10. Ben R. Pitt.

11. Wentz  Phil

12. Goff LAR

13. Watson  HOU

14. Prescott   Dall.

15. Trubisky  Chic.

16. Garrapolo  SFO

17. Stafford DET

18. Cousins  Minn

19. Newton  CAR

20. Winston  TB

21. Mariota  TN

22. Darnold  NYJ

23. Jackson  Balt.

24. Foles  Jax.

25.  Allen Buff.

26. Dalton  Cincy

27. Fitzpatrick Miami

28. Carr OAK

29. Eli   NYG

30. Flacco  Den.

31. Murray  AZ

32. Haskins  Wash.

Others:  

A. Will Case Keenum actually be the starter in Wash?

B Will Drew Lock replace Flacco in Denver?

D. Will Rosen be the starter in Miami?

E. Will/when will Jone replace Eli with NYG

Also...the two rookies expected to start were automatically give the lowest 2 spots...meaning that this article views Flacco as the weakest among veteran starters.

So...where to they have it wrong?

[htownbrown]

Honestly, after 13 games, I can't put Baker ahead of Ben, Wentz, or Goff.  After this season, if things progress as they should, it wouldn't be that far of a stretch.

[Comeonman]

19 minutes ago, htownbrown said:

Honestly, after 13 games, I can't put Baker ahead of Ben, Wentz, or Goff.  After this season, if things progress as they should, it wouldn't be that far of a stretch.

The article seemed like it is forecast of who will have the best seasons this year. If it weren’t, I would completely agree with you. 

[The Gipper]

I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. 

And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability

I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly  above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky.

And Foles at 24?  Huh.  no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. 

While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. 

And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others.  Maybe in a couple of years.  (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB)

[nickers]

20 hours ago, htownbrown said:

...still a ways to go.  Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

Hell I would rank baker ahead of Ryan.. I think Matty Ice blows..... He's had Julio Jones and Roddy White in the past... And still can't win a sausage!!

[Comeonman]

2 hours ago, The Gipper said:

I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. 

And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability

I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly  above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky.

And Foles at 24?  Huh.  no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. 

While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. 

And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others.  Maybe in a couple of years.  (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB)

Again, I think this article ranks QBs on what kind of season they think they will have. Mahomes would definitely be number one if I was betting. 

[Canton Dawg]

[The Gipper]

3 hours ago, Comeonman said:

Again, I think this article ranks QBs on what kind of season they think they will have. Mahomes would definitely be number one if I was betting. 

Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future.

[Comeonman]

59 minutes ago, The Gipper said:

Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future.

It can be, but I think they’re pretty close on this one. The top ten they have I think will be really close

[CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS]

Browns...with a top 10 rated QB? 😎

#6 is a competitor, and a leader too. With arm talent to go along. He deserves the rank.

[hoorta]

3 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Yes, but it is hard to not take into account the past when judging the present, or the future.

That's Steeler think Gipper.

[htownbrown]

Truth be told, as a witness to the past 20 years, I'm thrilled to see a debate about whether or not the browns have a top 10 QB.  Not gonna lie.

The problem isn't necessarily about Baker's ability or potential.  You have to look at the history of the system each QB is in.  I'm a Freddie Kitchens fan, but that's quite a leap of faith.  He'd be the first person to say that.

There is an argument to be made that Baker may be a better QB than Ryan, Wentz, or Goff by years end, but Ben is a much harder sale for me.  I hate the rapist more than anyone, don't get me wrong.  But to put it in boxing terms, Ben will take you into deep waters and drown you.  Baker just isn't a great finisher yet, but I expect to see a bit more of that from him this season.

Here's their methodology:

These rankings are based on how each QB performed last season and the upside of how each might perform in 2019. No matter how many Super Bowl rings or MVP awards a QB has won, or the number of efficient passing seasons he has posted in the past, history is a small part of the equation. We thought about where each QB ended up last season in terms of effectiveness, production and durability, and then we thought even more about how his talent and offensive support set him up for success (or lack thereof) this season.

 

I think we can check the effectiveness, production, and durability boxes for both Baker and Ben.  The problem here is they are ignoring the system these guys are in and focusing on talent influx exclusively.  Under their parameters the rankings make more sense, but I'm not sure it's an entirely fair assessment.  

I hope Baker winds up the best QB in the league by seasons end, but I think this run game under Freddie will be dominant over the second half of the season.  I see Chubb and Hunt digging into Baker's "production" quite a bit.  We shall see.

[Westside Steve]

On 5/21/2019 at 8:04 PM, htownbrown said:

...still a ways to go.  Baker ranked ahead of Ben makes me chuckle though.

 

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

So would you make the trade straight up?

WSS

[htownbrown]

2 hours ago, Westside Steve said:

So would you make the trade straight up?

WSS

Hell no

[The Gipper]

9 hours ago, hoorta said:

That's Steeler think Gipper.

Well....I think I am being a bit more specific than that.  Example:   Tom Brady DID win the Super Bowl this past year.  Drew Brees should have been in the Super Bowl.   As much as I wish BR were to lose it, he did throw for 5K yards last year. So, even though these are historical matters, its not like I have to go back very far to see how well these guys can do.

[choco]

Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading.

And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see....

[The Gipper]

2 hours ago, choco said:

Again, 5000 yards means fukall. Ben also led the league in interceptions. Bulk yardage stats are misleading.

And what does the system have to do with these ratings? No correlation that I see....

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft.  Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR. 

And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number.  Take the QB passer rating system.   For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs.  Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders.  That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers.  (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G).

[Kvoethe]

Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs

[Mark O]

38 minutes ago, Kvoethe said:

Im expecting a sophomore slump this year...as it happens to most if not all Q Bs

Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach.   Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach. 

[The Gipper]

5 hours ago, Mark O said:

Or could go the way of Jared Goff who got better his 2nd year with a new coach.   Good thing for Baker is he got the 2nd half of last season to work with his new coach. 

Or...Bernie Kosar, who led the Browns to the best record in the AFC  in his second year and into the AFC title game and one prevent defense that allowed a 98 yard drive short of going to the Super Bowl.!!   

[choco]

21 hours ago, The Gipper said:

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...

Mahomes had 4955 yds on 583 attempts, 385 completions, 66.0%

Ben had 5008 yds on 689 attempts, 459 completions, 66.6%

"Threw for 5000 yards" has no context is really all i mean...this is the difference in efficiency, and i consider this much more important when trying to compare players.  Mahomes had very similar production on 74 less completions.  Thats only the first layer of the onion.

  Vag doesn't know how to lay out a coherent argument. 

[Comeonman]

On 5/23/2019 at 1:00 PM, The Gipper said:

Hmm....that was the same argument that Vagitroll made about Landry...that he was just a "volume" pass catcher, and naturally, his conclusion was that Landry was not very good....and that you can get 20 Landrys in any given draft.  Of course that is a horeshit argument, and I also believe that it is somewhat horseshit when it comes to BR. 

And I don't know about these particular ratings....but I do know that a particular system can help a QB with certain kinds of number.  Take the QB passer rating system.   For a long while the guys that were the career leaders in that statistic were all seemingly "West Coast" QBs.  Sure, you had Joe Montana and Steve Young up there....but you also had the likes of Jeff Garcia and Trent Green among the career leaders.  That has dissapated somewhat.....but the fact is, of the Top 40 QBs in history.....one single QB played his career at any point prior to 1979....which was just after the big rule change regarding contact with receivers.  (fyi...that one had the intitials of O.G).

So Greg Little could have been a “volume” guy. If he could have caught the ball. 

Running routes crisply and having great hands. Yep..... “dime a dozen” as one would say. 

[Tour2ma]

On 5/21/2019 at 7:04 PM, htownbrown said:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/list/ranking-all-32-nfl-quarterbacks-from-best-to-worst/1e800cpni4cjf15fseqi4yrz1k

I focus on the "tiers", the groupings not the 1-40 order.

Only Tier1 I'd argue against is Mahommes due to it being one year and the fall off in the playoffs. With the loss of weapons in KC it's hard for me to see him repeating.

Tier 2??? Wentz... still waiting for him to make it thru a season and into the playoffs.

Tier 3? Weirdly small and a weird mix, e.g., Trubs in same group as Watson and Prescott???

Tiers 4 thru whatever... laughable mish mash.

[Gunz41]

On 5/22/2019 at 2:30 PM, The Gipper said:

I would certainly not put Ryan ahead of BR. 

And Wentz is way to high based on his abilities, including availability

I would put Newton at about 10, not 19 and certainly  above the likes of Goff, Wentz, Stafford, Garropolo, Prescott, Trubisky.

And Foles at 24?  Huh.  no. About 12-14 at minimum....certainly over guys who have done nothing like Winston/Mariota, Darnold, Cousins, Prescott. etc. 

While Eli has fallen, I would still put him at about 20...over some of the never haves. 

And I certainly am not ready to put Mahomes at #1 over Rodgers/Brady/Brees/Wilson and maybe a few others.  Maybe in a couple of years.  (but I am hoping that it is Baker, not he that proves to be the better QB)

Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that.

Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them.

Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker. 

[The Gipper]

1 hour ago, Gunz41 said:

Where would you have Baker? You didn't mention him in that.

I didn't bother, didn't realize I was obligated to. My honest answer is: I don't know.

Not that it will happen, nor that it looks like that, but we have seen QBs do really good things in 1st year and then fall off. Nothing I have seen would tell me that, but there is history. Even though he is a different QB than some of them.

There is history for the opposite as well.  See above my post about BK....led the team to the best record in the AFC...and to the AFC title game (and almost Super Bowl)...in his second year.

Certainly not just you Gip, wherever you have him ranked, but people want to point out flaws for others and not use them for their guy. Again that doesn't mean you, and not just about Baker. 

You go ahead an point out what you think would be Baker's flaws, and I will determine if I agree with them.

 

[Gunz41]

1 hour ago, The Gipper said:

 

Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest.

And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others.

And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different. 

[hoorta]

2 hours ago, Gunz41 said:

Well one, I never said anything about his flaws, but if you think he is perfect then go ahead. I don't care if you agree with them, I certainly know my knowledge, and it's also not a peeing contest.

And if you think that asking where you would rank him was somehow wrong, then I can't help you. Nobody said you were obligated to. But it is funny you don't know where you would rank him, yet have no issue with ranking others.

And of course there are cases both ways, nobody ever said different. 

My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory.  

[Gunz41]

11 hours ago, hoorta said:

My answer would also have to be- "we don't know". He repeats what he did in his rookie year- he's top 10. Has the sophomore slump- and its Blake Bortles territory.  

I get that, I'm not saying anyone has to have a spot for him. I don't know where I would put him. That was just a question, no right or wrong answer.

It was really just about saying so and so hasn't done anything, so they would be lower than so and so.